***Official Browns at Cardinals Gameday Thread

[nickers]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

If Freddie goes, Jimmy and Dee need to admit their own failures and sell the team.  

Responsibility for a poor product doesn't rest with the coaches only.   High time we as fans call them on that.

They have SUCKED as owners!

[darubes]

18 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Freddie didn't show for presser, they said he's "in a meeting" with Dorsey. Mr. Jimmy and Miss Dee. Maybe they are canning him. 

He did the presser  Same BS.

[jiggins7919]

Out of respect for you guys, I'm going to wait until I'm not quite as pissed off to post. Every time I try to type a response I start going on a tirade and that's not what I want to do. I have NEVER seen a defense get gashed like ours did tonight, and we have the WORST down the field passing attack I've seen in a while. Every pass is a swing pass, screen pass, or something short. We're an absolute mess offensively, EVEN WITH the best RB. The only thing worse is the freakin defense, which I'm not discussing right now. What a shit show. 

[hoorta]

9 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Freddie didn't show for presser, they said he's "in a meeting" with Dorsey. Mr. Jimmy and Miss Dee. Maybe they are canning him. 

If they do, it wouldn't be a shock. When I didn't think the Browns could possibly under perform- they exceeded my expectations. 

1) Landry & OBJ were visibly POed.

2) You made a three win team look like a SB contender. 

3) It's a body of work. Every team has a fluke loss here or there. But Freddie is losing games to teams he has an obvious talent advantage over. I don't buy the post game BS from the Browns shills "he's only a rookie HC". FWIW, a rookie HC with a playoff worthy roster. Starting with a loss to the not so great in 2019 Rams, the Seattle screw up, Getting bucked by an inferior Bronco team. getting f**ked by "The Duck", and now the "abomination in the desert". 

4) you were FAVORED in that game Freddie, and you laid a humongous egg. It wasn't even competitive.  

It has been a long, long time since I've seen a Browns team play like total crap like that. PS- tackling drills all week- you wrapped up like it was flag football. 

[Dutch Oven]

Glad to see those fucking lazy heaves from that Duck fuckhead in Pittsburgh actually get intercepted by a defense that has players turn and look for the ball. Good for you, Buffalo. 

[hoorta]

18 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

If Freddie goes, Jimmy and Dee need to admit their own failures and sell the team.  

Responsibility for a poor product doesn't rest with the coaches only.   High time we as fans call them on that.

But Freddie wasn't Haslam's call- he just signed off on it. Worst possible scenario is the Haslams get in a feud with Dorsey over Freddie's future with the team. 

16 minutes ago, nickers said:

They have SUCKED as owners!

What? You're not happy with another 7-9 season? 0-16,real progress.

[Dutch Oven]

If this gameday can't get any better, the Browns just guaranteed that they will not finish with a winning record in any season for the entire decade. 

[tiamat63]

Just now, hoorta said:

But Freddie wasn't Haslam's call- he just signed off on it. Worst possible scenario is the Haslams get in a feud with Dorsey over Freddie's future with the team. 

What? You're not happy with another 7-9 season? 0-16,real progress.

The buck stops at the top.   If the Haslams' signed off on Dorsey, then they ultimately signed off on Freddie.  Chain of command.      Freddie aside, there is a decent list of poor decisions they've made well previous to this.

[hx214]

Get or Got? Cause it should be “Been gettin for 14 year’”

 What’s “yo” mean in that context.
 

So much confusion...

[nickers]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The buck stops at the top.   If the Haslams' signed off on Dorsey, then they ultimately signed off on Freddie.  Chain of command.      Freddie aside, there is a decent list of poor decisions they've made well previous to this.

BINGO!

[hoorta]

14 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The buck stops at the top.   If the Haslams' signed off on Dorsey, then they ultimately signed off on Freddie.  Chain of command.      Freddie aside, there is a decent list of poor decisions they've made well previous to this.

I'll grant you that Tia. But if there's a learning curve for coaches, there's a learning curve for owners. I was aghast Chudd didn't get more than one year. 

MHO is Dorsey is the best GM we've had since the revival. Did he make a mistake promoting Freddie? Sure looks like it. Not the only mistake he's made. You just can't put Kitchens and Dorsey as a package deal- that's a clear recipe for disaster. 

I will say this- Jimmy and Dee really do care about the team- and the fans. commitment to winning? NO doubt. I was stunned a couple of years ago when Haslam showed up at the Middle Tennessee Browns Backers Tailgate in Nashville to shake hands  and pose for selfies. Not too many other owners would do that.... 

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'll grant you that Tia. But if there's a learning curve for coaches, there's a learning curve for owners. I was aghast Chudd didn't get more than one year. 

MHO is Dorsey is the best GM we've had since the revival. Did he make a mistake promoting Freddie? Sure looks like it. Not the only mistake he's made. 

I will say this- Jimmy and Dee really do care about the team- and the fans. commitment to winning? NO doubt. I was stunned a couple of years ago when Haslam showed up at the Middle Tennessee Browns Backers Tailgate in Nashville to shake hands  and pose for selfies. Not too many other owners would do that.... 

 

Tebow was passionate about playing QB and every bit the competitor as some of the best in the NFL.     Didn't make him good for the position.

I think my issue with the Haslams stems all the way back to the 1 and done with Chud.  Then we got Manziel - which absolutely was Jimmy's fault.  Then you have to consider some hires like Sashi, who weren't accompanied by personnel evaluation that had something of a say in order to help balance out some of the more.... dogmatic things Brown adhered to.  

At some point, if Dee and Jimmy retain ownership, they need to come out and just say - "WE have helped fuck this up too"          Accountability goes a long way.

[hoorta]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Tebow was passionate about playing QB and every bit the competitor as some of the best in the NFL.     Didn't make him good for the position.

I think my issue with the Haslams stems all the way back to the 1 and done with Chud.  Then we got Manziel - which absolutely was Jimmy's fault.  Then you have to consider some hires like Sashi, who weren't accompanied by personnel evaluation that had something of a say in order to help balance out some of the more.... dogmatic things Brown adhered to.  

At some point, if Dee and Jimmy retain ownership, they need to come out and just say - "WE have helped fuck this up too"          Accountability goes a long way.

And then you have Bob Kraft who lucked into Bill Bellichick and Tom Brady. Is he a great owner? I say hell no!!!  

Just wait Bob...  Spygate II  

 

 

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, hoorta said:

And then you have Bob Kraft who lucked into Bill Bellichick and Tom Brady. Is he a great owner? I say hell no!!!  

Just wait Bob...  Spygate II  

 

 

He hired the coach.  Coach and front office drafted and developed the player. 

 

That's hardly luck.

[hoorta]

5 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

He hired the coach.  Coach and front office drafted and developed the player. 

 

That's hardly luck.

Tia- just please. Don't tell me drafting a player in the  sixth round who's going to be considered the GOAT at his position isn't a stoke of pure luck. Every other team in the league had a shot at Brady, he was a totally underwhelming prospect- and we've been down the road looking at his UM stuff and combine numbers. 

[tiamat63]

8 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Tia- just please. Don't tell me drafting a player in the  sixth round who's going to be considered the GOAT at his position isn't a stoke of pure luck. Every other team in the league had a shot at Brady, he was a totally underwhelming prospect- and we've been down the road looking at his UM stuff and combine numbers. 

So if he was underwhelming by your own admission, would that not re-enforce my point of BB being a great coach and developing his talent to such a point? 

Sure, did anyone see a 6 time SB winner coming? No.   But the evaluation process, countless hours of work, planning, scheme, studying and the like all had to be invested to reap improvement.

 

That is, by most any understanding, the opposite of just 'pure luck'.   Unless you're of the belief Brady would have achieved all of those feats had the 2000 Browns drafted him... 

[hoorta]

11 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

So if he was underwhelming by your own admission, would that not re-enforce my point of BB being a great coach and developing his talent to such a point? 

Sure, did anyone see a 6 time SB winner coming? No.   But the evaluation process, countless hours of work, planning, scheme, studying and the like all had to be invested to reap improvement.

That is, by most any understanding, the opposite of just 'pure luck'.   Unless you're of the belief Brady would have achieved all of those feats had the 2000 Browns drafted him... 

Bill B may be the GOAT of modern coaches- but to say he has ESP other GMs\coaches don't have is a stretch. Brady was a 6th round flyer- period. Take the Browns out of the equation- and say he got drafted by the Chiefs- MHO? Same result. Bill misses on draft picks, and TBD how good he's going to be when Tom Terrific calls it a carer. 

[tiamat63]

2 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Bill B may be the GOAT of modern coaches- but to say he has ESP other GMs\coaches don't have is a stretch. Brady was a 6th round flyer- period. Take the Browns out of the equation- and say he got drafted by the Chiefs- MHO? Same result. Bill misses on draft picks, and TBD how good he's going to be when Tom Terrific calls it a carer. 

Well he did have 10 wins with a QB that never had a single start in college.... 

So we'll have to see what happens I guess.

[browns52]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

But Freddie wasn't Haslam's call- he just signed off on it. Worst possible scenario is the Haslams get in a feud with Dorsey over Freddie's future with the team. 

What? You're not happy with another 7-9 season? 0-16,real progress.

i said this team should be sold last a few yrs ago...it may mean they move again though....i would look for oakland to make a bid if team is sold....

[browns52]

Just now, tiamat63 said:

Well he did have 10 wins with a QB that never had a single start in college.... 

So we'll have to see what happens I guess.

with bill b's record, he is the best coach ever.....he may be retiring soon anyway.....why not...look what he has accomplished....

[browns52]

54 minutes ago, nickers said:

BINGO!

this whole yodell and jarvitis thing reminds me of the bonehead move the bengals make yrs ago with t.o.   and ocho cinco....what a circus that was...this is no different....just one big giant fucklebuck....

[Dutch Oven]

18 minutes ago, browns52 said:

i said this team should be sold last a few yrs ago...it may mean they move again though....i would look for oakland to make a bid if team is sold....

Just stop.

You sound like an idiot. 

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

He hired the coach.  Coach and front office drafted and developed the player. That's hardly luck.

Kraft did not just hire Belichick... he traded for him.

He sent the Jets a 1st, 4th and 5th for him.

 

As for Brady... Bill and Company saw something in the kid. Did they ever expect him to reach the heights he has? No... and Bill has said so, but you can't hold the fact that they did spend a 6th when no one else did against them.

And it's not as if they have not developed other players including very serviceable QBs within their system. I think the tally is at least 4 to date.

[nickers]

4 hours ago, browns52 said:

this whole yodell and jarvitis thing reminds me of the bonehead move the bengals make yrs ago with t.o.   and ocho cinco....what a circus that was...this is no different....just one big giant fucklebuck....

Yeah, I never did like Ocho Stinko.. He was a pussy who was afraid to go over the middle... I don't care what anyone says... Most of his catches were on the outside perimeter... Not only that...  Him being an attention whore  didn't sit well with me... I'm glad as hell he never won anything.. I put TO in the same category... Him and AB would make great fuck buddies...

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Kraft did not just hire Belichick... he traded for him.

He sent the Jets a 1st, 4th and 5th for him.

As for Brady... Bill and Company saw something in the kid. Did they ever expect him to reach the heights he has? No... and Bill has said so, but you can't hold the fact that they did spend a 6th when no one else did against them.

And it's not as if they have not developed other players including very serviceable QBs within their system. I think the tally is at least 4 to date.

That's the point I was trying to make. Seeing "potential" and thinking you're drafting the GOAT are two different things. I'll repeat it here- pure luck. Bill indeed has had qbs in his "system" who fell flat on their ass when they were traded away. Matt Cassel off the top of my head. Fortunately Bob "he's like a son to me Brady" Kraft unloaded Garrapollo to the 49ers, or we'd be dealing with the Patriots for another 10 years or so. 

That doesn't take anything away from Bill, who's football in every waking hour. 

[Tour2ma]

14 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'll repeat it here- pure luck.

I can't go that far.

I can't give them credit for seeing something and then take it all away just because that something turned out even better than they dare expect.... and to my mind that's what laying it off to "pure luck" does.

I think in Brady's case what they saw was a fiery competitor. Hell, I remember seeing Tom beat OSU his Senior year and thinking he had "something".

Often what they see is simply "a football player". I remember the story of them drafting Julian Edelman. I saw a Belichick interview where he said that to Welker when he called him on Draft day. Bill actually told him something along the lines of: "We don't know how we are going to use you yet, but we know that you are a football player and we will figure it out." On his way to becoming TB's comfort blanket Wes even played a couple games at Safety.

[One Post]

Got

[jiggins7919]

Similar to last week, much attention will be paid to the offense because offense is what makes headlines.  Were they good enough?  No, not even close.  Baker’s inability to accurately push the ball down the field during key moments once again reared its ugly head, and the rest of the game (when it mattered) you basically saw a passing game consisting of swing passes, screen passes, and other very short routes.  Our coach has little to no confidence in Baker making the types of throws a team needs TO SCORE POINTS, and what’s worse, I don’t think BAKER has the confidence either.  I could be mistaken, but I THINK OBJ was open on that interception in the end zone.  Maybe not wide open, but it appeared as if a good throw would give him a chance to make a big time TD grab.  You know, the entire REASON we gave up so much to GET HIM. 

You know what REALLY hurts, though?  We literally have the NFL’s leading rusher right now, but for some reason, we can’t utilize that fact to assist in our down the field passing attack.  Our play-action passing should be AMAZING.  We should get 1-2 deep shots per quarter, but for some reason we don’t.  Part of the reason is when we DO get them, Baker misses them high.  It was a problem last year, and it’s been a WORSE problem this year.  We are essentially one of the least explosive teams in the league.  How is that possible?  I see players like Duck Hodges and Ryan Fitzpatrick making throws that Baker couldn’t dream about.  Heck, Lamar effing Jackson makes EVERY SINGLE THROW in the book, and you can say, “Well his guys are always open!”  So what!  Our guys are open too and Baker can’t hit them! 

How in the world can we blame a guy like Freddie Kitchens when he literally can’t dial up down the field throws because his QB can’t hit open guys?  People gave Freddie crap last week about not running the ball in the first half, but the offense moved the ball every time.  Njoku not holding onto the ball at the freaking 11 yard line isn’t Freddie’s fault.  Then on the next drive, Baker missing high again on a wide open WR that resulted in a pick is not his fault!  You MUST be able to pass the ball in the NFL.  You want the proof of Baker’s inaccuracy?  Look no further than his TD numbers.  Baker simply can’t throw TD’s unless it’s from the 5 yard line and somebody is wide open.  Sure, he gets the occasional strike, but they are few and far between.  Aren’t you supposed to get BETTER after being in the league for a bit? 

Do you want to know what the REAL problem is now?  The biggest problem isn’t even Baker Mayfield and the passing attack.  Afterall, we have the leading rusher and we can manufacture at least SOME points.  The freaking problem is we can’t stop ANYBODY.  We literally can’t force a freaking punt!  How many punts did we force last week?  How many last night?  Guys, we’re not talking about division leading teams here, we’re talking about two teams that were picking in the top 5 of the EFFING DRAFT.  Their combined records were like 4-22-1 for Christ’s sake!  Our defense made these two teams look like Joe Montana and the 49’s of old.  We were getting GASHED for 10-15 yards a clip, and it felt like a freaking miracle when the opposition somehow made it to 3^rd down.  I’ve literally never seen anything like it, not even when we were 0-16.

And please, don’t tell me anything about being injured.  I KNOW we’re injured.  We’ve had some pretty injury-riddled teams heading into December before, and I STILL don’t remember seeing anything like the past two weeks.  Our offense CAN’T GET THE BALL BACK, well, not unless it’s on a freaking kickoff following a damn score.  How the hell is the offense supposed to function when they can’t get into a rhythm?  When they’re the on the bench for drives of 6, 8, and 9 minutes of game clock?  The last two weeks we basically just watched the other team’s offense march up and down the damn field, and if you thought THOSE games were bad, I cannot WAIT for what’s about to happen when a GREAT team like the effing Ravens comes to town.  They are going to beat the ever-living SHIT out of us…in the first QUARTER. 

For you fans who still think Mack Wilson is having a “good year”, please watch last night’s game again.  “But Jiggins, Mack Wilson had a huge interception!  He’s obviously a very talented player and you’re just a hater!”  Wrong.  Mack Wilson is EFFING AWFUL.  Yes, that interception was a thing of beauty, but what do you think happened the other 50 plays?  Why do you think the Cardinals could run the ball whenever they wanted to for 10-15 yards?  I don’t care what PFF says about his grade, I don’t care that he’s a rookie, the past two weeks have shown just how green (bad) he really is, and I wish it wasn’t so. 

I don’t care how many defenders you’re missing, you don’t let two of the worst teams in the league move the ball on you ALL DAY.  The damn Cardinals lost about 5 games in a row before last night, and yet THEY looked like the team fighting for their playoff lives.  Something is just “wrong” with our team right now, and I don’t know how to fix it.  We’ve been a mess for most of the year, and it’s only going to get worse after the Ravens come to town and bend us over a barrel.  Their offense is so good, and our defense is SO bad, that I’m worried about records being set against us.  I’m not exaggerating either.

I sincerely hope this post didn’t come off as being TOO negative, but let’s face it, there isn’t a whole lot of fun things to talk about.  We’re an absolute mess and basically NOTHING has worked out for us.  How can that happen?  How can essentially NOTHING work out?  I’ll tell you one thing, I’d sit Nick Chubb these last two games.  He’s the one shining star in all of this, and if he gets hurt at the end of this miserable season, I’ll lose what’s left of my sanity. 

At least my Florida State Seminoles are still in the top 5 every year…

Wait…

[SdBacker80]

19 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Out of respect for you guys, I'm going to wait until I'm not quite as pissed off to post. Every time I try to type a response I start going on a tirade and that's not what I want to do. I have NEVER seen a defense get gashed like ours did tonight, and we have the WORST down the field passing attack I've seen in a while. Every pass is a swing pass, screen pass, or something short. We're an absolute mess offensively, EVEN WITH the best RB. The only thing worse is the freakin defense, which I'm not discussing right now. What a shit show. 

I felt like this yesterday and I still feel like it today.

i haven’t missed a game in ages but I’m going to find something else to do Sunday. I’ll save three hours next Sunday and three the next 

[SdBacker80]

4 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Similar to last week, much attention will be paid to the offense because offense is what makes headlines.  Were they good enough?  No, not even close.  Baker’s inability to accurately push the ball down the field during key moments once again reared its ugly head, and the rest of the game (when it mattered) you basically saw a passing game consisting of swing passes, screen passes, and other very short routes.  Our coach has little to no confidence in Baker making the types of throws a team needs TO SCORE POINTS, and what’s worse, I don’t think BAKER has the confidence either.  I could be mistaken, but I THINK OBJ was open on that interception in the end zone.  Maybe not wide open, but it appeared as if a good throw would give him a chance to make a big time TD grab.  You know, the entire REASON we gave up so much to GET HIM. 

You know what REALLY hurts, though?  We literally have the NFL’s leading rusher right now, but for some reason, we can’t utilize that fact to assist in our down the field passing attack.  Our play-action passing should be AMAZING.  We should get 1-2 deep shots per quarter, but for some reason we don’t.  Part of the reason is when we DO get them, Baker misses them high.  It was a problem last year, and it’s been a WORSE problem this year.  We are essentially one of the least explosive teams in the league.  How is that possible?  I see players like Duck Hodges and Ryan Fitzpatrick making throws that Baker couldn’t dream about.  Heck, Lamar effing Jackson makes EVERY SINGLE THROW in the book, and you can say, “Well his guys are always open!”  So what!  Our guys are open too and Baker can’t hit them! 

How in the world can we blame a guy like Freddie Kitchens when he literally can’t dial up down the field throws because his QB can’t hit open guys?  People gave Freddie crap last week about not running the ball in the first half, but the offense moved the ball every time.  Njoku not holding onto the ball at the freaking 11 yard line isn’t Freddie’s fault.  Then on the next drive, Baker missing high again on a wide open WR that resulted in a pick is not his fault!  You MUST be able to pass the ball in the NFL.  You want the proof of Baker’s inaccuracy?  Look no further than his TD numbers.  Baker simply can’t throw TD’s unless it’s from the 5 yard line and somebody is wide open.  Sure, he gets the occasional strike, but they are few and far between.  Aren’t you supposed to get BETTER after being in the league for a bit? 

Do you want to know what the REAL problem is now?  The biggest problem isn’t even Baker Mayfield and the passing attack.  Afterall, we have the leading rusher and we can manufacture at least SOME points.  The freaking problem is we can’t stop ANYBODY.  We literally can’t force a freaking punt!  How many punts did we force last week?  How many last night?  Guys, we’re not talking about division leading teams here, we’re talking about two teams that were picking in the top 5 of the EFFING DRAFT.  Their combined records were like 4-22-1 for Christ’s sake!  Our defense made these two teams look like Joe Montana and the 49’s of old.  We were getting GASHED for 10-15 yards a clip, and it felt like a freaking miracle when the opposition somehow made it to 3^rd down.  I’ve literally never seen anything like it, not even when we were 0-16.

And please, don’t tell me anything about being injured.  I KNOW we’re injured.  We’ve had some pretty injury-riddled teams heading into December before, and I STILL don’t remember seeing anything like the past two weeks.  Our offense CAN’T GET THE BALL BACK, well, not unless it’s on a freaking kickoff following a damn score.  How the hell is the offense supposed to function when they can’t get into a rhythm?  When they’re the on the bench for drives of 6, 8, and 9 minutes of game clock?  The last two weeks we basically just watched the other team’s offense march up and down the damn field, and if you thought THOSE games were bad, I cannot WAIT for what’s about to happen when a GREAT team like the effing Ravens comes to town.  They are going to beat the ever-living SHIT out of us…in the first QUARTER. 

For you fans who still think Mack Wilson is having a “good year”, please watch last night’s game again.  “But Jiggins, Mack Wilson had a huge interception!  He’s obviously a very talented player and you’re just a hater!”  Wrong.  Mack Wilson is EFFING AWFUL.  Yes, that interception was a thing of beauty, but what do you think happened the other 50 plays?  Why do you think the Cardinals could run the ball whenever they wanted to for 10-15 yards?  I don’t care what PFF says about his grade, I don’t care that he’s a rookie, the past two weeks have shown just how green (bad) he really is, and I wish it wasn’t so. 

I don’t care how many defenders you’re missing, you don’t let two of the worst teams in the league move the ball on you ALL DAY.  The damn Cardinals lost about 5 games in a row before last night, and yet THEY looked like the team fighting for their playoff lives.  Something is just “wrong” with our team right now, and I don’t know how to fix it.  We’ve been a mess for most of the year, and it’s only going to get worse after the Ravens come to town and bend us over a barrel.  Their offense is so good, and our defense is SO bad, that I’m worried about records being set against us.  I’m not exaggerating either.

I sincerely hope this post didn’t come off as being TOO negative, but let’s face it, there isn’t a whole lot of fun things to talk about.  We’re an absolute mess and basically NOTHING has worked out for us.  How can that happen?  How can essentially NOTHING work out?  I’ll tell you one thing, I’d sit Nick Chubb these last two games.  He’s the one shining star in all of this, and if he gets hurt at the end of this miserable season, I’ll lose what’s left of my sanity. 

At least my Florida State Seminoles are still in the top 5 every year…

Wait…

Well said.

Id say we are close- but I can’t.  Some others will say we just need a LT and a RT.  I’d actually argue are much maligned oline was the best unit besides our Running backs.  Yesterday was proof once again that our issues run deeper.  

The defense quit against the Steelers But there were a few people arguing that wasn’t the case.  Duck boy beat us badly.  Andy Dalton looked reborn.  We let a young kid whose struggled all year with blitzes sit back (we had a former kicker/analyst telling us we should blitz more) Can we now confirm they’ve quit and they are sending a message that Wilkes and Freddie need to leave?
 

Bakers worst quality this year - could be coached out of him.  He had a great feel in the pocket last year and moved well around pressure.  This year he puts his head down stumbles around and either takes a sack or throws it away or worse yet finds the other team.