Patriots Fallout

[MLD Woody]

47 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I think the Haslams want him bad. Like PoG/Saquon bad. 

Wow that's pretty bad. 

[calfoxwc]

not seeing it. McDaniels would be a mistake of mistakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_McDaniels

"McDaniels's tenure with the Broncos was marred early on by a controversy involving an alleged trade offer from the Patriots involving the team's quarterback, Jay Cutler, which would have sent Matt Cassel to Denver. On March 9, 2009, according to ESPN, a conference call involving McDaniels, team owner Pat Bowlen and Cutler failed to resolve the issues. Cutler said he did not trust McDaniels and the organization following the trade controversy.^[12] On April 2, 2009, the Broncos traded Cutler and a 2009 fifth-round draft pick to the Chicago Bears for quarterback Kyle Orton, first- and third-round picks in 2009 and a first-round pick in 2010. "

2010 season

"Main article: 2010 Denver Broncos season

McDaniels' second season in Denver ended with a 3–9 record. The Broncos lost to the Kansas City Chiefs on December 5, and on the next day, McDaniels was fired by the Broncos."

 

Videotaping scandal

Further information: 2010 Denver Broncos season § Videotaping scandal

"On November 27, The Denver Post reported the Broncos were under investigation from the NFL, after it was reported that Steve Scarnecchia, the team's director of video operations hired by McDaniels in 2009, videotaped a San Francisco 49ers' walkthrough practice, during the teams' Week 8 game at Wembley Stadium in London, England.^[13]"

"The same day, the NFL fined the Broncos and McDaniels $50,000 each, and Scarnecchia was fired as a result of the incident. Scarnecchia told NFL investigators he acted alone and "knew it was wrong" to tape the walkthrough practice, after the rest of the Broncos' staff had left the stadium. Scarnecchia later presented McDaniels with the six-minute video, but McDaniels declined to view it, and it was not shown to any other Broncos staff member, and therefore the NFL determined the Broncos had not gained a competitive advantage from it. An anonymous source alerted the Broncos on November 8, who conducted an internal investigation before alerting the NFL. NFL Security then began its investigation, which included a forensic analysis of the computer from which the recording was later deleted by Scarnecchia.^[14] Both the NFL and the Broncos determined that McDaniels knew nothing about the incident.^[15]"

"However, the NFL fined McDaniels due to the fact that he did not immediately report the incident to the league office, as required by policy. The NFL also fined the Broncos, as "clubs are ultimately accountable for the conduct of their employees."^[14]"

"According to The Denver Post, the videotaping incident was a major factor in McDaniels' firing a week later; while the Broncos did not deem it something that merited being fired for cause, they considered his failure to report the incident "unforgivable."^[15]"

******************************************************************

and after what McDaniels did to the Colts... I wouldn't trust him for nothin.

Stephanski wins bigtime. Has to. No brainer.

[Dutch Oven]

I find it deliciously ironic that cal holds professional athletes and coaches to a high moral standard that his Captain BoneSpurs would laughably come short at. 

[The Gipper]

9 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

not seeing it. McDaniels would be a mistake of mistakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_McDaniels

"McDaniels's tenure with the Broncos was marred early on by a controversy involving an alleged trade offer from the Patriots involving the team's quarterback, Jay Cutler, which would have sent Matt Cassel to Denver. On March 9, 2009, according to ESPN, a conference call involving McDaniels, team owner Pat Bowlen and Cutler failed to resolve the issues. Cutler said he did not trust McDaniels and the organization following the trade controversy.^[12] On April 2, 2009, the Broncos traded Cutler and a 2009 fifth-round draft pick to the Chicago Bears for quarterback Kyle Orton, first- and third-round picks in 2009 and a first-round pick in 2010. "

2010 season

"Main article: 2010 Denver Broncos season

McDaniels' second season in Denver ended with a 3–9 record. The Broncos lost to the Kansas City Chiefs on December 5, and on the next day, McDaniels was fired by the Broncos."

 

Videotaping scandal

Further information: 2010 Denver Broncos season § Videotaping scandal

"On November 27, The Denver Post reported the Broncos were under investigation from the NFL, after it was reported that Steve Scarnecchia, the team's director of video operations hired by McDaniels in 2009, videotaped a San Francisco 49ers' walkthrough practice, during the teams' Week 8 game at Wembley Stadium in London, England.^[13]"

"The same day, the NFL fined the Broncos and McDaniels $50,000 each, and Scarnecchia was fired as a result of the incident. Scarnecchia told NFL investigators he acted alone and "knew it was wrong" to tape the walkthrough practice, after the rest of the Broncos' staff had left the stadium. Scarnecchia later presented McDaniels with the six-minute video, but McDaniels declined to view it, and it was not shown to any other Broncos staff member, and therefore the NFL determined the Broncos had not gained a competitive advantage from it. An anonymous source alerted the Broncos on November 8, who conducted an internal investigation before alerting the NFL. NFL Security then began its investigation, which included a forensic analysis of the computer from which the recording was later deleted by Scarnecchia.^[14] Both the NFL and the Broncos determined that McDaniels knew nothing about the incident.^[15]"

"However, the NFL fined McDaniels due to the fact that he did not immediately report the incident to the league office, as required by policy. The NFL also fined the Broncos, as "clubs are ultimately accountable for the conduct of their employees."^[14]"

"According to The Denver Post, the videotaping incident was a major factor in McDaniels' firing a week later; while the Broncos did not deem it something that merited being fired for cause, they considered his failure to report the incident "unforgivable."^[15]"

******************************************************************

and after what McDaniels did to the Colts... I wouldn't trust him for nothin.

Stephanski wins bigtime. Has to. No brainer.

With that endorsement....between the two of them.....I am in favor of McDaniels.  I mean, you are going somewhat on the fact that McDaniels wanted to trade Jay Cutler.....and that Cutler didn't "trust"  McDaniel after that?    Sorry, but that makes me favor McDaniel in that situation. As for the taping issue,  its typical.....

[Tour2ma]

15 hours ago, Adoug319 said:

In comes Tom Brady for one more year with McDaniels, while Baker learns the offense.

Call me crazy, just watch.

Same thought occurred to me...

[calfoxwc]

6 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

With that endorsement....between the two of them.....I am in favor of McDaniels.  I mean, you are going somewhat on the fact that McDaniels wanted to trade Jay Cutler.....and that Cutler didn't "trust"  McDaniel after that?    Sorry, but that makes me favor McDaniel in that situation. As for the taping issue,  its typical.....

McDaniels' second season in Denver ended with a 3–9 record. The Broncos lost to the Kansas City Chiefs on December 5, and on the next day, McDaniels was fired by the Broncos."

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/268917/how-josh-mcdaniels-went-from-patriots-to-colts-and-back-again

don't cherry pick my objections. It's just my opinion, that's all.

[calfoxwc]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000915131/article/josh-mcdaniels-withdraws-from-colts-coaching-job

[The Gipper]

10 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

McDaniels' second season in Denver ended with a 3–9 record. The Broncos lost to the Kansas City Chiefs on December 5, and on the next day, McDaniels was fired by the Broncos."

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/268917/how-josh-mcdaniels-went-from-patriots-to-colts-and-back-again

don't cherry pick my objections. It's just my opinion, that's all.

And BB was fired by...the Ravens actually.   What then:   Super Bowl winner. 

And Mike Shanahan was fired by the Raiders.   What then:  Super Bowl winner

As was John Gruden: What then:  Super Bowl winner.

I expect that 50% of all Super Bowl winning HCs may have been fired by some other team.

That said, I would like to see the Vikes win today.

[Tour2ma]

14 hours ago, hoorta said:

Tom is as good as his offensive line- which is still incredible in pass protection. And a mighty good reason why he's not coming to Cleveland. Nah- I think Brady will stay in New England as long as he thinks he still want to play. Bob "Tom is like a son to me" Kraft will make sure of it.

Yet you can't name one of of his OL and ones that leave NE in FA... think Nate Solder... more often than not flop for their new teams. Why is that?

Brady sets his own line protection... is still nimble in the pocket... and still gets the ball out as quickly as any QB in the league. The rest is coaching. McD would have to promote Scarneccia to hire him away from the Pats, but it's be worth it to get him to come.

3 hours ago, Adoug319 said:

Lemme ask you something, how many Super Bowls has Belichick won without McDaniels? The answer is 0.

Not saying McDaniels is the sole reason...

Hope not since in 2001 McD was a mere "Personnel Assistant"...

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

I think the Haslams want him bad. Like PoG/Saquon bad. 

That's twice you've gone fishing with that bait... maybe three is a charm.

[Tour2ma]

And as far as Baker goes...

If he couldn't accept the GOAT starting ahead of him, then that's on him.

[crunchy]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Yet you can't name one of of his OL and ones that leave NE in FA... think Nate Solder... more often than not flop for their new teams. Why is that? 

Because they're not actually good, they just never get called for holding because they play for the Pats. How many times have you seen Brady standing there forever and no one can get near him? And how many holding calls does his o-line get? Zero. Yet when they leave NE they turn into regular linemen. Must be a coincidence... 

[calfoxwc]

25 minutes ago, crunchy said:

Because they're not actually good, they just never get called for holding because they play for the Pats. How many times have you seen Brady standing there forever and no one can get near him? And how many holding calls does his o-line get? Zero. Yet when they leave NE they turn into regular linemen. Must be a coincidence... 

speaking of favoritism.... watching the Eagles play the Seahawks...

Wentz gets speared helmet to helmet and leaves the game. no call.

later, a defensive player Seahawks was it? shoves the Eagles back up qb to the ground after the play....

no call. Apparently, the refs are "letting them play". But does anyone believe if it were the Browns in the playoffs, and a couple of Browns players did exactly the same thing...it would be ok, too? They would be flagged/ejected/suspended/fined...whatever.

I don't get it. Ogunjobi got suspended for a game for a shove of a player to the ground after a play was over.

[Tour2ma]

10 minutes ago, crunchy said:

Because they're not actually good,

Just copied the part you got right...

Individually they are not talented, but as a unit the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.

Every OL who engages a defender without throwing on them holds on every play... it's just a matter of whether they do it right. And right is defined by two things:

1. Their hands are inside the frame of the defender, and
2. The instant the defender tries to pull away they let go.

The second is the hardest thing to teach, but if you emphasize it in every practice and each individual learns that either one of his fellow OL will be there to cover for him, then they learn. Just need the right teacher.... and that's where Scarnecci comes in.

During his brief retirement Offensive Holding calls more than doubled. League average is around 23 per team per season and varies very little season to season. Pats had 30 in 2016 tying then for 3rd most (so much for conspiracy theories)... just finished with a 2nd best 13 this season.

[Tour2ma]

10 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I don't get it. Ogunjobi got suspended for a game for a shove of a player to the ground after a play was over.

Apples and oranges, cal... Ogun did it in the context of a fight when the refs were trying to gain control of an escalating situation.

The Wentz hit? I think it had a lot to do with the fact that Clowney was heading (no pun intended) in the same direction as Carson. In real time it did not look like a violent play. In slo-mo it looked more so... I expect Clowney will get a letter.

[Gunz41]

In my opinion, to reference a 20 game sample to indicate that BB is THE reason that NE is great is asinine.

That year of Cassel, although a good record resulted in no playoffs.

14-6 is 70%. Respectable for sure, better than most.

249-75 including playoffs. Or .769. And if you want to go Regular season, that is 219-64. Which is .774. And that is 30-11 in the playoffs, which is a .732 in the playoffs, you know against the best teams in the league. Which is 3.2% higher record than without. 

To say TB12 isn't/wasn't a big reason for the Patriots success is ridiculous. Brady has more than TWICE the number of playoff wins than ANY quarterback not named Montana. And Joe is 1 win above above twice. 

[Axe]

[Axe]

And then, there's this..

https://www.pewterreport.com/odds-for-brady-to-play-on-bucs-released/

These are Sportsbetting’s top odds for Brady’s potential new team:

Cleveland Browns – 5/1

New England Patriots – 5/1

Las Vegas Raiders – 6/1

Dallas Cowboys – 7/1

Indianapolis Colts  – 7/1 

Los Angeles Chargers – 7/1

Tampa Bay Bucs – 9/1

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

In my opinion, to reference a 20 game sample to indicate that BB is THE reason that NE is great is asinine.

That year of Cassel, although a good record resulted in no playoffs.

14-6 is 70%. Respectable for sure, better than most.

249-75 including playoffs. Or .769. And if you want to go Regular season, that is 219-64. Which is .774. And that is 30-11 in the playoffs, which is a .732 in the playoffs, you know against the best teams in the league. Which is 3.2% higher record than without. 

To say TB12 isn't/wasn't a big reason for the Patriots success is ridiculous. Brady has more than TWICE the number of playoff wins than ANY quarterback not named Montana. And Joe is 1 win above above twice. 

I completely agree with you. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Axe said:

And then, there's this..

https://www.pewterreport.com/odds-for-brady-to-play-on-bucs-released/

These are Sportsbetting’s top odds for Brady’s potential new team:

Cleveland Browns – 5/1

New England Patriots – 5/1

Las Vegas Raiders – 6/1

Dallas Cowboys – 7/1

Indianapolis Colts  – 7/1 

Los Angeles Chargers – 7/1

Tampa Bay Bucs – 9/1

They ARE now the Las Vegas Raiders.  have to get used to that.   But I think it is more like 1000 to 1 that Brady would end up here. 

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Apples and oranges, cal... Ogun did it in the context of a fight when the refs were trying to gain control of an escalating situation.

The Wentz hit? I think it had a lot to do with the fact that Clowney was heading (no pun intended) in the same direction as Carson. In real time it did not look like a violent play. In slo-mo it looked more so... I expect Clowney will get a letter.

got it, except, the nfl said the suspension was because Ogunjobi "might have re-escalated"...

and the other "could have escalated" into an all out brawl. But I get your point.

[Tour2ma]

3 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

To say TB12 isn't/wasn't a big reason for the Patriots success is ridiculous. Brady has more than TWICE the number of playoff wins than ANY quarterback not named Montana. And Joe is 1 win above above twice. 

There's no doubt that TB12 was a major factor in the sustained greatness of the Pats 20-year run. There were seasons where they just flat outscored people like 2007 when Tom threw 50 TDs, but there were also seasons when they won with strong D, a running game and Game Manager TB at QB, e.g., 2003 and 2016.

In fact there were more seasons where Tom QB'd a Top 5 Offense (11) than the Pats fielded a Top 5 D (8). And while of their 6 SB wins only one came when they were not top 5 on at least one side of the ball, two wins came with only a Top 5 Offense, one with only a Top 5 Defense and two with Top 5 on both sides.

 

Also interesting is that out of the 6 SB seasons Tom was PFR's top AV (Approximate Value) Patriot 3 times. The other three times the top AV was a defender... Troy Brown, Ty Law and Dont'a Hightower.

 

Bottom line: I don't think either has to take a backseat to the other... plenty of room up front.

 

[Bob806]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:32 PM, Adoug319 said:

Call me crazy, but Tony Romo hinted it and I’ve felt the same way. Josh McDaniels is a northeast Ohio guy, went to John Carroll.

 

his offense is complex though, and Baker needs to mature.

 

 

 

You're not crazy, and yes Baker needs to mature....mature meaning stop saying stupid stuff at the microphone.

Some would argue McDaniels needs to mature as well. His stint in Denver didn't go well.

However, although I wanted Josh Allen, I do believe Baker has the tools to be a winner. Throw in McDaniels, hey maybe he cultivates it to the top.

The key to me is does McDaniels have a Defensive Coordinator in mind, that will attack? Our offense should be an easy fix, defense, well not so much.

 

[nickers]

3 hours ago, Bob806 said:

You're not crazy, and yes Baker needs to mature....mature meaning stop saying stupid stuff at the microphone.

Some would argue McDaniels needs to mature as well. His stint in Denver didn't go well.

However, although I wanted Josh Allen, I do believe Baker has the tools to be a winner. Throw in McDaniels, hey maybe he cultivates it to the top.

The key to me is does McDaniels have a Defensive Coordinator in mind, that will attack? Our offense should be an easy fix, defense, well not so much.

 

We can be sure it wont be Mike Nolan LOL

[crunchy]

On 1/5/2020 at 6:47 PM, Tour2ma said:

Just copied the part you got right...

Individually they are not talented, but as a unit the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts.

Every OL who engages a defender without throwing on them holds on every play... it's just a matter of whether they do it right. And right is defined by two things:

1. Their hands are inside the frame of the defender, and
2. The instant the defender tries to pull away they let go.

The second is the hardest thing to teach, but if you emphasize it in every practice and each individual learns that either one of his fellow OL will be there to cover for him, then they learn. Just need the right teacher.... and that's where Scarnecci comes in.

During his brief retirement Offensive Holding calls more than doubled. League average is around 23 per team per season and varies very little season to season. Pats had 30 in 2016 tying then for 3rd most (so much for conspiracy theories)... just finished with a 2nd best 13 this season.

3 things:

A: All NFL o-linemen know how to block properly and every NFL o-line coach knows how to teach that most basic o-line skill. To suggest that only Scarnecchia does is silly. 

B: 2016 was the only season from 2009 when the Pats were anywhere close to the top of the league in offensive holding. Picking one season out of 12 doesn't disprove they don't get away with holding a lot. Also, 2016 was the year Scarnecchia returned, so there goes that theory that he's some sort of master blocking teacher. 

😄C-The stat doesn't tell us if it's o-linemen holding or someone further down the field. The Pats run a ton of screens, quick outs, and dump offs and their skill players get called for holding too. Also, the number of holding calls don't tell us how many more were MISSED or just not called. 

I stand by my previous statement, the Pats o-line gets away with a ton of holding. 

[crunchy]

On 1/5/2020 at 8:04 PM, Gunz41 said:

In my opinion, to reference a 20 game sample to indicate that BB is THE reason that NE is great is asinine.

That year of Cassel, although a good record resulted in no playoffs.

14-6 is 70%. Respectable for sure, better than most.

249-75 including playoffs. Or .769. And if you want to go Regular season, that is 219-64. Which is .774. And that is 30-11 in the playoffs, which is a .732 in the playoffs, you know against the best teams in the league. Which is 3.2% higher record than without. 

To say TB12 isn't/wasn't a big reason for the Patriots success is ridiculous. Brady has more than TWICE the number of playoff wins than ANY quarterback not named Montana. And Joe is 1 win above above twice. 

20 games is a significant sample size considering a season is only 16 games. People always say 'they didn't make the playoffs' but that was a statistical fluke. They're the only 11-5 team to miss since the playoffs went to 6 teams in 1990. 

When Brady came back the next year they won 1 LESS game and MADE the playoffs. 

According to the math the Patriots have won 7% more with Brady than a random replacement. And these were all ROOKIE replacements. Brady is only worth 7% more than a random rookie replacement? And this is with him having the benefit of years and years of experience playing with the team and the same coach and system the whole time while the rookies came in cold. That makes it way more favorable for Brady and he still does only 7% better. You made my case for me! 

For contrast, the Colts with Manning won 68% and the year without him won 14%. You may think Brady is a good qb but to credit him for team success over Belichick simply isn't born out by the facts. 

[Tour2ma]

32 minutes ago, crunchy said:

I stand by my previous statement, the Pats o-line gets away with a ton of holding. 

Stand by whatever you like...

[crunchy]

On 1/5/2020 at 11:37 AM, The Gipper said:

Sure....like I said, he would have good teams,  occasional playoff teams.  Not championship teams.  

He can coach a defense, and he can be a good HC.   Brady made him a Champion. 

Or...are you going to say:   Well, even if Tom Brady leaves, the Pats coached by BB will still be the odds on favorite to win the Super Bowl..or at least the AFC. 

If so...then I would refer you to the words of  that musical group from the Boston area who call themselves Aerosmith:   Dream On.

They wouldn't be the odds on SB favorite because a lot of people think Brady was really important,. But I bet Belichick would win another without Brady and it wouldn't take too long. He's been waiting forever for Brady to go so he can prove he's the reason they win so much. The only reason Brady has been there the last few seasons is Kraft taking a break from handos to force Belichick to trade Jimmy and keep Brady. Brady didn't put Belichick over the top, Belichick carried Brady to a career his talent doesn't deserve in the least. No arm strength, no improvisational skill, no downfield accuracy. He's good at one thing: doing whatever Bill says, exactly how he says it. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, crunchy said:

They wouldn't be the odds on SB favorite because a lot of people think Brady was really important,. But I bet Belichick would win another without Brady and it wouldn't take too long.

Well, I would bet you you are wrong. 

He's been waiting forever for Brady to go so he can prove he's the reason they win so much.

He should not be so anxious because it would prove that it was Brady was the straw that stirred the dring. 

The only reason Brady has been there the last few seasons is Kraft taking a break from handos to force Belichick to trade Jimmy and keep Brady. Brady didn't put Belichick over the top, Belichick carried Brady to a career his talent doesn't deserve in the least.

You've got Cap'n Crunch for brains if you believe that. 

No arm strength, no improvisational skill, no downfield accuracy. He's good at one thing: doing whatever Bill says, exactly how he says it. 

Cap' crunch without the crunch.  Just a brain full of mush then. 

 

[Unsympathetic]

Total NFL regular season penalty stats 2019

The team that had OH called on them the most, jacksonville, received this call under twice per game out of just under 64 offensive plays per game.

That's... not many.

Neither the Pats [nor anyone else] "Get Away With" anything.  There is no documentation of the rate of any team's uncalled penalties... because they're not called.  The rate of the Patriots' uncalled penalties is not higher than the rate of any other team's uncalled penalties.. because there's no proof that it is higher.

It may feel good to believe Patriots Conspiracies, but that doesn't mean they're actually a thing.

 

If Brady's fantasy nutritionist gets together with the Patriots' fantasy holding non-calls, Cleveland wins a Super Bowl in 2020!

[Westside Steve]

On 1/5/2020 at 3:18 PM, Tour2ma said:

And as far as Baker goes...

If he couldn't accept the GOAT starting ahead of him, then that's on him.

Mayfield animosity side maybe we should try to lure Joe Namath away from those Medicare commercials? 😏 Tom Brady isn't Tom Brady without The Perfect Storm.

WSS