Schefter: Watson to Browns

[Westside Steve]

8 hours ago, Orion said:

I remember right after the Ravens won the Super Bowl, Flacco got his big contract.  (big for the day)  I saw this Ravens team picture circulation where every player was cropped out of the picture except Flacco...sitting all alone in the bleachers.  And so now, here we are.  

It's hard for me to believe that DePodesta came up with the idea of getting Watson for this price.  And I'm not 100% sure that Berry actually has a side to him that is this flamboyant.  Now, Jimmy, that's different.  It certainly does seem up his alley. But THIS time I actually mean it in kind of a good way.  I mean, he could've screwed up the team payroll for the next decade (with league-wide ripple affects)...butt it solidifies just how much he and Dee want to win.  I truly believe that they want the team to be a winner right through to their marrow.  I'm reminded of a story where a Browns player's wife ran into Dee at a store one day and they got to talking.  And the player's wife said that Dee was brought to tears as she was explaining how much they want the team to win...and that they haven't been able to do it and that they feel so horribly bad about it.  

Jimmy & Dee have admitted that they didn't know what they were doing when they started out.  And they still may not.  But I'll give them this much;  They realize just how important it is to have a top flight QB in today's NFL.  (reality check, it's always been all about the QB)  And they realized that Baker just was not that QB.  And...there just so happened to be this top tier QB that was available.  A VERY rare event.  A top tier QB, who is young and not at the tail end of his career is available.  He's gonna go to some team.  THIS is what their football team needs to be successful.   So, knowing that they were going to get beat up doing what they did....they did it anyway.  It's like making a deal with the devil.  And if they didn't, someone else would've.

We can hate this reality.  We can hate them for not having the standards that some of us may want them to have.  But it certainly underscores just how much they want the team to be a winner...so they can stop crying in their pillow at night.     ---   Very rare for me to shine a positive ray on JImmuh  -- 

I'd say your correlation is a little bit off. The reasons and their successful years have done so as a team. Not decimating the team so they can pay more for one guy. Matter of fact when those big time Ravens quarterbacks hit the open market what happens?

I don't know Jimmy and Dee personally. They seem like idiots to me. As always I admit if this brings a Super Bowl titles to the city of Cleveland I guess they've made the right decision. If not there man a laughing stock. While pissing away the great deal of the team's respect. We shall see.

WSS

[laiccm]

9 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I'd say your correlation is a little bit off. The reasons and their successful years have done so as a team. Not decimating the team so they can pay more for one guy. Matter of fact when those big time Ravens quarterbacks hit the open market what happens?

I don't know Jimmy and Dee personally. They seem like idiots to me. As always I admit if this brings a Super Bowl titles to the city of Cleveland I guess they've made the right decision. If not there man a laughing stock. While pissing away the great deal of the team's respect. We shall see.

WSS

No...but they were paying the guys on defense like they're quarterbacks......Ed Reed, Ray Lewis....

Besides...it's a new NFL. Tampa and the Rams showed this. Get the elite QB, Go all in on the pieces around him....that's your best bet. 

[Orion]

17 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

They seem like idiots to me.

No argument there.  And you can lump their son in law in there with them.  Just look at what they did to the uniforms a few years back...

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

 If not there man a laughing stock. While pissing away the great deal of the team's respect. We shall see.

WSS

 

  I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I think of the Jets, I don't think 'Man, those are some decent dudes'.

   No, I think of a terribly run franchise that cannot identify, develop and secure long term talent along with winning games.   

This team only started getting "respect" after a couple near .500 years and a playoff win.   Because that's what people gravitate to - winning. 

If Watson comes in and helps hold open a window of consistently deep playoffs pushes, AFC title games and, God willing, a SuperBowl spot, then it was worth the risk. 

[laiccm]

14 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

  I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I think of the Jets, I don't think 'Man, those are some decent dudes'.

   No, I think of a terribly run franchise that cannot identify, develop and secure long term talent along with winning games.   

This team only started getting "respect" after a couple near .500 years and a playoff win.   Because that's what people gravitate to - winning. 

If Watson comes in and helps hold open a window of consistently deep playoffs pushes, AFC title games and, God willing, a SuperBowl spot, then it was worth the risk. 

Exactly.....because WTF has the previous methods gotten us?

[Westside Steve]

13 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm genuinely curious about something Steve, and this is not meant to be snarky.

Since I've been on this board, of all the moderators or longtime guys on here, you really don't post that often on the Browns forum. You have your movie forum, the Shrine to Deep Thought that is the political forum, but you really don't post very much on the actual Browns forum. Not during 1-31, or the playoff run of 2020. 

Until it appeared Baker Mayfield was going to lose his starting job, and then did lose his starting job. Now you are on here consistently. I'm just curious to why now.  

Well since your curiosity is genuine I've really been around for a long time, I go back to the old AOL days, and always been up and down concerning activity. Always been a fan always watch every possible game and always have my handful of guys I root for. And more often than not that eventually leads to disappointment. I don't think that's an uncommon feeling. We still have guys here that hate Belichick over the Bernie Kosar situation. I don't consider myself an expert or even much of a student of the game. Frankly the most knowledgeable people here probably know less than the guy that fetches coffee at Berea.

As far as being a frequent contributor it's been a long drought with not a whole lot to discuss. Form a bond with an a player for whatever reason and it's not long before this idiot Haslam tears the team apart and starts over. But for myself oh, and that's all I can speak to, I have felt a special kinship with Mayfield.

High pick or not he's been the underdog his whole life and has gone through how many head coaches and offensive coordinators here? So after the cage of wandering in the desert there's a guy I really like leaving the team to what I thought could be the turning point this coming season. Ups and downs WTF. So I'm just more interested and more vocal and I've been for a little while. We didn't know each during the Brian Sipe years or the Vinny Bernie controversy years.(if you were aware around that time there were Browns fans wearing Dallas and Miami jerseys with Kosar's name.) Even the Brady Quinn years. JFF who really let me down. Dilfer, Zeier, Mc Cown Charley etc.

Anyway after four years of shit I was stoked for the upcoming season, which I believed would be a watershed, until Haslam, who I think is an idiot, pulled the rug  with a deal I think is truly insane. AND for a guy I didn't like regardless of off-the-field innuendo. Sorry I freely admit I root for personalities and would always prefer a 60- nothing beat down of the Steelers to what some people call a good game. And let's face it it's 99% territorial loyalty. Unlike the clowns out there wearing Los Angeles jerseys until next Super Bowl. So that's all I can tell you my active participation Rises and falls. Similarly I like Higgins and was hoping for more with Parkey and the hammer among  others, but not worth dozens of posts on minor issues.

Anyway everybody has their own individual set of criteria and not that I think it's much of a comparison let me ask you this, how would you have felt had the Browns signed Michael Vick?

I'm not comparing him to Watson just wondering how the win at all costs attitude holds up.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

31 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

  I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I think of the Jets, I don't think 'Man, those are some decent dudes'.

   No, I think of a terribly run franchise that cannot identify, develop and secure long term talent along with winning games.   

This team only started getting "respect" after a couple near .500 years and a playoff win.   Because that's what people gravitate to - winning. 

If Watson comes in and helps hold open a window of consistently deep playoffs pushes, AFC title games and, God willing, a SuperBowl spot, then it was worth the risk. 

Everybody has their own reasons for watching the broadcast buying tickets or jerseys or other paraphernalia. Like Pilate said we all have truths are mine the same as yours?

When I take of the Jets I think of Joe Namath my favorite football player we never wore brown and orange. When I think of the Buffalo Bills I think of Frank & Teresa's Anchor Bar and the curse of Doug Flutie, the New England Patriots? Bill Belichick and wishing he would have stayed in Cleveland. And that every Championship they win pushes the Steelers further Back Into Obscurity. Other teams varying levels of hatred or not caring.

Anyway the best I can do is take a wait-and-see attitude.

WSS

[laiccm]

19 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Everybody has their own reasons for watching the broadcast buying tickets or jerseys or other paraphernalia. Like Pilate said we all have truths are mine the same as yours?

When I take of the Jets I think of Joe Namath my favorite football player we never wore brown and orange. When I think of the Buffalo Bills I think of Frank & Teresa's Anchor Bar and the curse of Doug Flutie, the New England Patriots? Bill Belichick and wishing he would have stayed in Cleveland. And that every Championship they win pushes the Steelers further Back Into Obscurity. Other teams varying levels of hatred or not caring.

Anyway the best I can do is take a wait-and-see attitude.

WSS

You make valid points but the bottomline is winning games....which is obvious...

You think as detailed oriented as the Pats are that they didn't know Aaron Herneadez was a murdering psycho? Let alone Goodell throwing away their cheat tapes

You think the Ravens didn't try and hide the fact that ray Lewis was involved in a double murder and paid off both families? Heck, he is a liaison for the league now

You play to win the game.....when you win the Superbowl...no one cares about anything else

[Westside Steve]

19 minutes ago, laiccm said:

You make valid points but the bottomline is winning games....which is obvious...

You think as detailed oriented as the Pats are that they didn't know Aaron Herneadez was a murdering psycho? Let alone Goodell throwing away their cheat tapes

You think the Ravens didn't try and hide the fact that ray Lewis was involved in a double murder and paid off both families? Heck, he is a liaison for the league now

You play to win the game.....when you win the Superbowl...no one cares about anything else

Don't know, don't care. If you've been following along I'm not talking about the 22 chicks. It's the deal. It's the fact that he refused to play for the Texans because they didn't like who they hired. A quarter of a billion dollars guaranteed he will have even less reason the play if he doesn't like something. Also he really didn't want to be here and only grudgingly wound up in Cleveland when the other suitors folded and Jimmy saw the bet + raise them. When he says he didn't even consider the contract he's lying.

I'm saying that I like Baker Mayfield and I believed that his being healthy and the rest of the obstacles coming together for the rest of the team would have been a successful run in 23.

But still if this doesn't bring a Super Bowl ring we've crippled the team for years to come.

WSS

[laiccm]

3 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Don't know, don't care. If you've been following along I'm not talking about the 22 chicks. It's the deal. It's the fact that he refused to play for the Texans because they didn't like who they hired. A quarter of a billion dollars guaranteed he will have even less reason the play if he doesn't like something. Also he really didn't want to be here and only grudgingly wound up in Cleveland when the other suitors folded and Jimmy saw the bet + raise them. When he says he didn't even consider the contract he's lying.

I'm saying that I like Baker Mayfield and I believed that his being healthy and the rest of the obstacles coming together for the rest of the team would have been a successful run in 23.

But still if this doesn't bring a Super Bowl ring we've crippled the team for years to come.

WSS

Actually your point was regarding ethics.

The deal ? Really? The deal will be mid level in 2 years and the Browns are still 20 mill under the cap. Where did the previous road get us before? Crippled us from what....no Superbowl . Burrows, Jackson and who ever the Steelers get will be getting more...thus screwing them.

As in his bout with the Texans...ask JJ Watt and D .Hopkins about it. No one but you and Texans fans had a problem with Watson not playing there. It was waaay more than just who they hired.....

I'm saying Baker is good if everything around him is damn near great. -not elite. Other than that...the league is showing you what they think. He is only 18 mill and no one is trying to beat down his door. His mouth and antics with inferior play is costing him. As in his injuries...he got injured behind a top line....what makes you think he won't again? He decided to play and he decided no one else could make that decision. Well......that's on him

[Westside Steve]

7 minutes ago, laiccm said:

Actually your point was regarding ethics.

The deal ? Really? The deal will be mid level in 2 years and the Browns are still 20 mill under the cap. Where did the previous road get us before? Crippled us from what....no Superbowl . Burrows, Jackson and who ever the Steelers get will be getting more...thus screwing them.

As in his bout with the Texans...ask JJ Watt and D .Hopkins about it. No one but you and Texans fans had a problem with Watson not playing there. It was waaay more than just who they hired.....

I'm saying Baker is good if everything around him is damn near great. -not elite. Other than that...the league is showing you what they think. He is only 18 mill and no one is trying to beat down his door. His mouth and antics with inferior play is costing him. As in his injuries...he got injured behind a top line....what makes you think he won't again? He decided to play and he decided no one else could make that decision. Well......that's on him

I don't think my point was necessarily about ethics maybe you could cut and paste the line that led you to believe that, maybe I was wrong maybe I was misunderstood. No s*** his price is only 18 million bucks. If I'm shopping at a yard sale at an item cost x amount of dollars I know that after the sale is over it's going to be on the curb and I can get it for free. Neither his mouth nor his antics have concern me.

As far as only me and Texans fans don't even count me. I'd rather he was back at Texas f****** with them. But when he pulls the same s*** here then he's f****** with the Browns and Texans fans won't care. Then again maybe he won't. Maybe he's changed his ways. Maybe he loves it here. Maybe being a good soldier is first on his list of things to do. Maybe just maybe he decided to come to Cleveland because he thought we were ready to win. And not the money. Wait a minute who am I kidding...?

WSS 

[nickers]

9 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I don't think my point was necessarily about ethics maybe you could cut and paste the line that led you to believe that, maybe I was wrong maybe I was misunderstood. No s*** his price is only 18 million bucks. If I'm shopping at a yard sale at an item cost x amount of dollars I know that after the sale is over it's going to be on the curb and I can get it for free. Neither his mouth nor his antics have concern me.

As far as only me and Texans fans don't even count me. I'd rather he was back at Texas f****** with them. But when he pulls the same s*** here then he's f****** with the Browns and Texans fans won't care. Then again maybe he won't. Maybe he's changed his ways. Maybe he loves it here. Maybe being a good soldier is first on his list of things to do. Maybe just maybe he decided to come to Cleveland because he thought we were ready to win. And not the money. Wait a minute who am I kidding...?

WSS 

I'm still pissed he got THAT kind of money and hasn't produced a Sausage (SB win)

[Westside Steve]

6 minutes ago, nickers said:

I'm still pissed he got THAT kind of money and hasn't produced a Sausage (SB win)

I got the Trivisonno reference haha

WSS

[nickers]

1 minute ago, Westside Steve said:

I got the Trivisonno reference haha

WSS

I loved that guy...

[laiccm]

21 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I don't think my point was necessarily about ethics maybe you could cut and paste the line that led you to believe that, maybe I was wrong maybe I was misunderstood. No s*** his price is only 18 million bucks. If I'm shopping at a yard sale at an item cost x amount of dollars I know that after the sale is over it's going to be on the curb and I can get it for free. Neither his mouth nor his antics have concern me.

As far as only me and Texans fans don't even count me. I'd rather he was back at Texas f****** with them. But when he pulls the same s*** here then he's f****** with the Browns and Texans fans won't care. Then again maybe he won't. Maybe he's changed his ways. Maybe he loves it here. Maybe being a good soldier is first on his list of things to do. Maybe just maybe he decided to come to Cleveland because he thought we were ready to win. And not the money. Wait a minute who am I kidding...?

WSS 

I believed it was your first reply...but ok

If you want whatever in that yard sale and afraid someone else is going to get it...you grab it-immediately-u don't wait. It's a Jackie Robinson rookie card and all the neighbors found out at the same time....then what happens? 

His mouth or antics don't concern you but you're not an owner.....so it obviously concerning teams. 

Does it really natter why someone comes here as along as they produce? Idgaf abou tthe reasons....I'm not a friend or family member of the player. Just produce. Seems as if you're getting upset of what "could" happen....ask yourself this....did the Browns have the best roster of all the reported teams after Watson? If the answer is yes....then that's it. Have we won or even been to a Superbowl yet?

I think you're ignoring the present day NFL conditions which the last 2 Superbowl winners proved to be. Our FO see it and acting on it. Bravo for the Browns for one of the very first times being a tad ahead of the curve

[Gunz41]

I've been reading and debating on whether to post anything or not, but here goes

Watson is a better QB than Baker, I don't think anyone can question that. If that is the only part of it, then a very clear A+.

But there is so much more to consider, and to reply to things that have been said. They wont be word for word or linked to them

1. When discussing DW and potential suspension, it has been discussed about him already missing a year. But that wasn't because of suspension AT ALL. He said he wouldn't play for Texans and they didn't play him. So exactly why should that matter in his potential suspension?

2. DW wanted out of Houston because they got rid of Hopkins. Well, he did sign his original extension AFTER the trade, so I don't know that was the reason.

3. Using Tampa and Rams as what teams are doing now and how that shows it works. 1- Tampa didn't trade picks for Brady (in fact, they have made 1st round picks both years since they got Brady), and the difference with the Rams is they did so for multiple players. They also started with a good base of players before.

4. In assessing how impactful the trade is, it has many different values, not just how good DW is with the Browns. If you are one who believes that Berry in company are good talent evaluators and drafters, then you have to ask yourself the question: What would help more Deshaun or lets use Dallas (Baker, Parsons, Lamb, and the upcoming draft). And lets say Baker is worth half of Watson (I would probably agree), what could you also add with that extra cap space.

5. I am not going to get into the accusations. Maybe they are all true, all false, or somewhere in the middle. I don't claim to have an idea like some.

6. Pointing out that the NFL is telling you what they think of Baker with him not going somewhere, first he isn't a FA and don't know what offers they have received, second some of these guys that are being pointed at as the Browns having so much talent are actual FAs and not getting jobs. 

Let's look at that a bit further though, don't even factor in Cooper since Baker never played with him. Who are the elite players that Baker had on the team that made it "perfect" for him?

I would answer Chubb, Garrett, and really good guards with Bitonio and Teller. All of whom have missed time each year I believe. 

7. Let's assume that a trade isn't done, and the Browns then have their picks. Now lets assume that all the people who are out on Baker are 100% right and they don't even make the playoffs this coming year. How do they fare with a #13th pick this year (lets just use Garrett Wilson) and one of the Top QB in a very good assumed draft? Or what if Baker would return to his 2020 form (with what would appear to be a better roster)?

For me, I don't think Watson is a Top 5 QB, but he is way closer to Top 5 then Baker is to Top 10, where I would put below top half. But it also isn't about having THE top guy at a certain position (even the most important position). It is about having a well rounded TEAM. And that is where you can't use Brady who for whatever reason you want to give takes way less money to improve the team around him. The other 2 top paid QBs have both lost Top 5 WR this season because of money. 

Since the knock on Baker was "he can't get to the goal of winning a SB", someone tell me when the last time even a Top 5 paid QB (at time of winning) won a SB?

Ill say it 1 more time so there is no mistake, Watson is A GOOD BIT better than Baker.

If Browns win SB while Watson is a Brown then it was absolutely worth it (even if Baker goes somewhere else and succeeds, as there is not a real answer to the "never know").

There are other ways to view it as success or not, but I have written enough already.

But to act as if its as simple as 1 player swap for another is just looking at it through biased tint. There are so many factors that make it not as clear cut as Deahaun vs Baker end of story

[laiccm]

19 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

I've been reading and debating on whether to post anything or not, but here goes

Watson is a better QB than Baker, I don't think anyone can question that. If that is the only part of it, then a very clear A+.

But there is so much more to consider, and to reply to things that have been said. They wont be word for word or linked to them

1. When discussing DW and potential suspension, it has been discussed about him already missing a year. But that wasn't because of suspension AT ALL. He said he wouldn't play for Texans and they didn't play him. So exactly why should that matter in his potential suspension?

2. DW wanted out of Houston because they got rid of Hopkins. Well, he did sign his original extension AFTER the trade, so I don't know that was the reason.

3. Using Tampa and Rams as what teams are doing now and how that shows it works. 1- Tampa didn't trade picks for Brady (in fact, they have made 1st round picks both years since they got Brady), and the difference with the Rams is they did so for multiple players. They also started with a good base of players before.

4. In assessing how impactful the trade is, it has many different values, not just how good DW is with the Browns. If you are one who believes that Berry in company are good talent evaluators and drafters, then you have to ask yourself the question: What would help more Deshaun or lets use Dallas (Baker, Parsons, Lamb, and the upcoming draft). And lets say Baker is worth half of Watson (I would probably agree), what could you also add with that extra cap space.

5. I am not going to get into the accusations. Maybe they are all true, all false, or somewhere in the middle. I don't claim to have an idea like some.

6. Pointing out that the NFL is telling you what they think of Baker with him not going somewhere, first he isn't a FA and don't know what offers they have received, second some of these guys that are being pointed at as the Browns having so much talent are actual FAs and not getting jobs. 

Let's look at that a bit further though, don't even factor in Cooper since Baker never played with him. Who are the elite players that Baker had on the team that made it "perfect" for him?

I would answer Chubb, Garrett, and really good guards with Bitonio and Teller. All of whom have missed time each year I believe. 

7. Let's assume that a trade isn't done, and the Browns then have their picks. Now lets assume that all the people who are out on Baker are 100% right and they don't even make the playoffs this coming year. How do they fare with a #13th pick this year (lets just use Garrett Wilson) and one of the Top QB in a very good assumed draft? Or what if Baker would return to his 2020 form (with what would appear to be a better roster)?

For me, I don't think Watson is a Top 5 QB, but he is way closer to Top 5 then Baker is to Top 10, where I would put below top half. But it also isn't about having THE top guy at a certain position (even the most important position). It is about having a well rounded TEAM. And that is where you can't use Brady who for whatever reason you want to give takes way less money to improve the team around him. The other 2 top paid QBs have both lost Top 5 WR this season because of money. 

Since the knock on Baker was "he can't get to the goal of winning a SB", someone tell me when the last time even a Top 5 paid QB (at time of winning) won a SB?

Ill say it 1 more time so there is no mistake, Watson is A GOOD BIT better than Baker.

If Browns win SB while Watson is a Brown then it was absolutely worth it (even if Baker goes somewhere else and succeeds, as there is not a real answer to the "never know").

There are other ways to view it as success or not, but I have written enough already.

But to act as if its as simple as 1 player swap for another is just looking at it through biased tint. There are so many factors that make it not as clear cut as Deahaun vs Baker end of story

I think you should post more. I may disagree with some of your points but they are good and thought out.

1. I didn't bring up he already didn't play last season. I think people do that because he was not indicted and the league is so inconsistent with their penalties....never know.

2. I believe the Hopkins deal got him on fire, he signed it, then the Texans kept doing dumb things ....I think a Pastor runs their football operations. They are one if not the worst ran franchise in sports. See what JJ Watt did...

3. No matter how a team got there....they there. Elite QB with very talented teammates at all costs.Brady brought AB, Gronk...etc. By all means necessary Rather picks or salaries. Remember all the chatter about the Rams mortgaging their future? Giving up the world for Stafford...getting this guy, that guy...still doing it. They are now the reigning Superbowl Champions. All of the contenders have elite QBs and very talented teammates. The rest have no chance.

4. I think it's moot point. if you don't have a elite QB...you have no chance in today's NFL. The fact that Watson is elite, Baker isn't...is kinda the bottomline

5. I agree

6. If Allen, Mahomes, Wilson, Allen, Watson, Burrows, Lamar, Stafford, Tom, Russell, Herbert were in the exact same situation as Baker....would they still be without a team? The answer to that question is what I am getting at. Baker had a top 5 oline, defense, and rushing attack with OBJ, Landry, Hooper and Njoku....what else do you need? For comparison in our own division  Jackson had no running backs because of torn ACLs, bottom oline, bottom defense, bottom and hurt receivers...yet the Ratbirds were 7-3 and was 8-5 till he got injured. Why? Cuz their QB was top 10 in passing and rushing yards at the time. 

7. Let's assume that's true.....how many present day players on our team who are presently at their peak can wait for a rookie of next season?

You speak as if the Browns have to get pieces. Their team is ready to win right now. It's not at a building stage. I use Brady because at the end of the day...Tampa is built just like all the other contenders....elite QB at all costs with very talented teammates

Nothing is ever clear cut.....but forth your best effort...that's all we can ask. 

[Gunz41]

1 hour ago, laiccm said:

I think you should post more. I may disagree with some of your points but they are good and thought out.

1. I didn't bring up he already didn't play last season. I think people do that because he was not indicted and the league is so inconsistent with their penalties....never know.

2. I believe the Hopkins deal got him on fire, he signed it, then the Texans kept doing dumb things ....I think a Pastor runs their football operations. They are one if not the worst ran franchise in sports. See what JJ Watt did...

3. No matter how a team got there....they there. Elite QB with very talented teammates at all costs.Brady brought AB, Gronk...etc. By all means necessary Rather picks or salaries. Remember all the chatter about the Rams mortgaging their future? Giving up the world for Stafford...getting this guy, that guy...still doing it. They are now the reigning Superbowl Champions. All of the contenders have elite QBs and very talented teammates. The rest have no chance.

4. I think it's moot point. if you don't have a elite QB...you have no chance in today's NFL. The fact that Watson is elite, Baker isn't...is kinda the bottomline

5. I agree

6. If Allen, Mahomes, Wilson, Allen, Watson, Burrows, Lamar, Stafford, Tom, Russell, Herbert were in the exact same situation as Baker....would they still be without a team? The answer to that question is what I am getting at. Baker had a top 5 oline, defense, and rushing attack with OBJ, Landry, Hooper and Njoku....what else do you need? For comparison in our own division  Jackson had no running backs because of torn ACLs, bottom oline, bottom defense, bottom and hurt receivers...yet the Ratbirds were 7-3 and was 8-5 till he got injured. Why? Cuz their QB was top 10 in passing and rushing yards at the time. 

7. Let's assume that's true.....how many present day players on our team who are presently at their peak can wait for a rookie of next season?

You speak as if the Browns have to get pieces. Their team is ready to win right now. It's not at a building stage. I use Brady because at the end of the day...Tampa is built just like all the other contenders....elite QB at all costs with very talented teammates

Nothing is ever clear cut.....but forth your best effort...that's all we can ask. 

Ill have to push back on a few of them.

Tampa isn't built by Elite QB at all costs, Brady went there because of the talent they already had. The only team really built by getting rid of picks and go all in every year is the Rams. 

And the other major thing I will have to challenge is calling OBJ, Landry, Hooper as having major weapons and being the same person pointing out nobody wanting Baker. As of this moment, all 3 of those weapons were available for trade and nobody wanted to. Then all 3 are FAs and still don't have a job. We can certainly point out that OBJ is injured, so is Baker. Now if we want to say look what OBJ did when he went to Rams, I have 2 views on that. 1 is obvious, Stafford is much better than Baker, BUT 2. He also wasn't the #1 guy. 

Now you can view #2 differently, but that kind of goes to your 1st sentence in the reply, I should post more. One, during the season I am pretty busy as I have coached for 20 years (the part I am referring to above), 2 I am just not a person that enjoys getting into long back and forths especially when people think they are the smartest guy in the room, and some don't mind telling you or reminding you (even if they are correct). Sure,  I have a lot of experience and knowledge, but I don't assume I know more than someone else, especially on a subject I don't think I am proficient in.

And I absolutely wouldn't call Njoku elite and certainly not the defense. 

As for the waiting for the rookie next year, I believe you are missing my point. 1. If the assumed suspension does come, that is what is already going to happen, but I wouldn't assume that a Bryce Young/CJ Stroud/ex would be Watson, or Burrow, Herbert, etc. My point is that FO have to take those things into the equation when making decisions, are you win at all costs now or continue to build and even if/when Baker isn't the answer, you have the rest of the pieces in place.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am someone who values draft picks much lower than most. 

The picks don't bother me that much, the money bothers me some (especially fully guaranteed with his history ((not the girl stuff)), the part that bothers me most is how they did the deal to make his base 1 million this year so he can lose the least amount possible. But on top of that, it makes it increase the rest of remaining years, which then hurts the ability to upgrade other parts of the team.

The Browns have to have Watson be near MVP caliber to have any shot after next year I believe. There is an easy correlation between Mahomes/Rodgers and Adams/Hill. Once the QB got paid (obviously worth it), you are going to lose others.

As for the Ravens comment, sure they lost guys, when are we going to give the Browns the same? In fact, I know for me, I would rather know if someone is going to be out then my players in and out from multiple injuries. And the Ravens scheme is more predicated on the blocking/misdirection/QB over having a GREAT running back. Their goal is to get more people to the point of attack than you have.

But anyway, the Browns were the most "healthy" Week 1 vs. Chiefs. A bobbled snap lost that game, not BM. Next game BM gets hurt (not because of him having a great line, but by making a bad throw and trying to be the one to stop it).

Now Baker looked bad A LOT last year. However much you want to credit the injury is up to the individual.

He looked pretty bad in wins too, but since its all about winning, lets leave them out.

L1: Chiefs- Baker didn't lose than game

L2: Chargers- 47-42, certainly not BM

L3: Cardinals- Baker wasn't terrible, wasn't great, but Chubb out, Landry out, as well as both starting OT

L4: Steelers- EVERYTHING was bad, but point out that Hunt and Ward were out.

L5: Patriots- No needs to assign blame, the players kids and wives were embarrassed 

L6: Ravens- Baker was inefficient, but the Browns (a running team who needs that for Baker to succeed), ran it 17 times for 40 yards. That game is on the staff to me.

L7: Raiders- Nick Mullens

L8: Packers- Baker, Baker, Baker

L9: Steelers- Baker was bad, but again the game strategy was poor to me (38 passes, Chubb 12 carries)

Last thing I will say, we really need to define what elite is. How many QBs can be considered elite vs. Just being really good/great? 

And I can't say that you need an elite QB to win (or even reach SB):

Since 2010: Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, Peyton/Osweiler (PM that year), Newton, Ryan (that year he was elite), Wentz/Foles, Goff, Jimmy G. 8 out of 26 total (Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Ben, Peyton were there multiple times and counted each time).

Either way, enjoyed it. Have a great evening 

[laiccm]

28 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Ill have to push back on a few of them.

Tampa isn't built by Elite QB at all costs, Brady went there because of the talent they already had. The only team really built by getting rid of picks and go all in every year is the Rams. 

And the other major thing I will have to challenge is calling OBJ, Landry, Hooper as having major weapons and being the same person pointing out nobody wanting Baker. As of this moment, all 3 of those weapons were available for trade and nobody wanted to. Then all 3 are FAs and still don't have a job. We can certainly point out that OBJ is injured, so is Baker. Now if we want to say look what OBJ did when he went to Rams, I have 2 views on that. 1 is obvious, Stafford is much better than Baker, BUT 2. He also wasn't the #1 guy. 

Now you can view #2 differently, but that kind of goes to your 1st sentence in the reply, I should post more. One, during the season I am pretty busy as I have coached for 20 years (the part I am referring to above), 2 I am just not a person that enjoys getting into long back and forths especially when people think they are the smartest guy in the room, and some don't mind telling you or reminding you (even if they are correct). Sure,  I have a lot of experience and knowledge, but I don't assume I know more than someone else, especially on a subject I don't think I am proficient in.

And I absolutely wouldn't call Njoku elite and certainly not the defense. 

As for the waiting for the rookie next year, I believe you are missing my point. 1. If the assumed suspension does come, that is what is already going to happen, but I wouldn't assume that a Bryce Young/CJ Stroud/ex would be Watson, or Burrow, Herbert, etc. My point is that FO have to take those things into the equation when making decisions, are you win at all costs now or continue to build and even if/when Baker isn't the answer, you have the rest of the pieces in place.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am someone who values draft picks much lower than most. 

The picks don't bother me that much, the money bothers me some (especially fully guaranteed with his history ((not the girl stuff)), the part that bothers me most is how they did the deal to make his base 1 million this year so he can lose the least amount possible. But on top of that, it makes it increase the rest of remaining years, which then hurts the ability to upgrade other parts of the team.

The Browns have to have Watson be near MVP caliber to have any shot after next year I believe. There is an easy correlation between Mahomes/Rodgers and Adams/Hill. Once the QB got paid (obviously worth it), you are going to lose others.

As for the Ravens comment, sure they lost guys, when are we going to give the Browns the same? In fact, I know for me, I would rather know if someone is going to be out then my players in and out from multiple injuries. And the Ravens scheme is more predicated on the blocking/misdirection/QB over having a GREAT running back. Their goal is to get more people to the point of attack than you have.

But anyway, the Browns were the most "healthy" Week 1 vs. Chiefs. A bobbled snap lost that game, not BM. Next game BM gets hurt (not because of him having a great line, but by making a bad throw and trying to be the one to stop it).

Now Baker looked bad A LOT last year. However much you want to credit the injury is up to the individual.

He looked pretty bad in wins too, but since its all about winning, lets leave them out.

L1: Chiefs- Baker didn't lose than game

L2: Chargers- 47-42, certainly not BM

L3: Cardinals- Baker wasn't terrible, wasn't great, but Chubb out, Landry out, as well as both starting OT

L4: Steelers- EVERYTHING was bad, but point out that Hunt and Ward were out.

L5: Patriots- No needs to assign blame, the players kids and wives were embarrassed 

L6: Ravens- Baker was inefficient, but the Browns (a running team who needs that for Baker to succeed), ran it 17 times for 40 yards. That game is on the staff to me.

L7: Raiders- Nick Mullens

L8: Packers- Baker, Baker, Baker

L9: Steelers- Baker was bad, but again the game strategy was poor to me (38 passes, Chubb 12 carries)

Last thing I will say, we really need to define what elite is. How many QBs can be considered elite vs. Just being really good/great? 

And I can't say that you need an elite QB to win (or even reach SB):

Since 2010: Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, Peyton/Osweiler (PM that year), Newton, Ryan (that year he was elite), Wentz/Foles, Goff, Jimmy G. 8 out of 26 total (Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Ben, Peyton were there multiple times and counted each time).

Either way, enjoyed it. Have a great evening 

Yes, Tampa had a ready roster....like us. That's my point. Then they got lucky and got the GOAT. Maybe a sematic but who cares how it got built...just that it's built

The difference between them (Landry, OBJ and Hooper) and Baker is that they were Pro Bowlers who are dependant on the QB. OBJ just won a SB and was maybe on his way to a MVP before shredding his knee. Wasn't the no,1 guy but he was catching touchdowns.... A QB is very, very prized. You can find receivers....but  a top QB? 

You can call Njoku not elite (we will see this season) but Baker had way more than enough to be successful this year is really the bottomline. How many teams had a better roster than the Browns is really the bottomline? Rams, Tampa, KC and maybe Buffalo...those 4 teams went far and 1 won it all....we didn't even make the playoffs...

 

COACH IN THE HOOOOOOOUSE!! U love the game don't you brother? 

Yeah...the money is a issue...but money will be an issue with Cincy, Baltimore, Denver, Pitt...already with KC. I am hoping in just 2-3 seasons the contract has much less effect.

With the suspension it's wait and see..I don't think Brissett will be awful but will not be good. Hopefully it's 4 games but you're correct...Watson will have to play at A MVP level(wghat we saw last of him). Hopefully he still got it

100% correct----that's the Ratbirds game plan...out player you at point of attack. But it didn't work last year so their QB put on a cape and almost single handidly carried them...now they will have to pay him 300 mill guaranteed...hehehe

 

Absolutly great analysis of what happened in those games with him. 

I think that's where we differ...I believe now you do need an elite QB to make it or win......if not you better have a helluva team. The AFC alone is a warzone now and that's post that epic Championship shootout with Allen and Mahomes

 

GREAT TALKING TO YOU COACH....I appreciate it

 

 

[Westside Steve]

4 hours ago, laiccm said:

I believed it was your first reply...but ok

"Just produce. Seems as if you're getting upset of what "could" happen.."

 No shit.

that's what this whole thing's about right?  Aren't you guys getting all excited about what could happen?

WSS

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

 

L1: Chiefs- Baker didn't lose than game

No, he didn't.  Turnovers were the main issue.  But I've highlighted several plays Baker failed to push the ball downfield, including a potential TD throw.

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

L2: Chargers- 47-42, certainly not BM

No argument there. 

L3: Cardinals- Baker wasn't terrible, wasn't great, but Chubb out, Landry out, as well as both starting OT

Baker was terrible, but the team was injured at that point.

L4: Steelers- EVERYTHING was bad, but point out that Hunt and Ward were out.

At home? Again, I've broke down a handful of plays, including a potential game saving/tying drive where Baker failed to deliver on a call and concept drawn up beautifully by the coaches.

L5: Patriots- No needs to assign blame, the players kids and wives were embarrassed 

Blame go to far around, but again... you're facing a defensive mind who knew exactly how to attack Mayfield and he did nothing to force adjustments when the opportunities presented themselves.

L6: Ravens- Baker was inefficient, but the Browns (a running team who needs that for Baker to succeed), ran it 17 times for 40 yards. That game is on the staff to me.

"needs that for Baker to succeed" is an admission that your QB is a problem at the highest levels of play.   The Browns ran the ball 17 times, 15 of those against +1 box counts.  NFL is about dictating matchups and the Browns didn't have a QB able to exploit those, what amount to "gimmies" by the Ravens. 

L7: Raiders- Nick Mullens

L8: Packers- Baker, Baker, Baker

Pretty much all Baker early on.

L9: Steelers- Baker was bad, but again the game strategy was poor to me (38 passes, Chubb 12 carries)

No different than last time against the Steelers.  Daring this offense to beat them through the air.  I will get on Stef for not sticking with the run late in the game when it was finally working.

Last thing I will say, we really need to define what elite is. How many QBs can be considered elite vs. Just being really good/great? 

And I can't say that you need an elite QB to win (or even reach SB):

Since 2010: Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, Peyton/Osweiler (PM that year), Newton, Ryan (that year he was elite), Wentz/Foles, Goff, Jimmy G. 8 out of 26 total (Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, Ben, Peyton were there multiple times and counted each time).

You need an elite QB to keep Superbowl windows open.  As pointed out on this site, 1 and done is incredibly rare and then you have teams that make the mistake (Flacco, Kaep, Osweiler, Goff) of paying those QB's because of the misguided belief that their level of play couldn't be duplicated, and ignoring the team structure around them that allowed such success.

 

 

[laiccm]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

"Just produce. Seems as if you're getting upset of what "could" happen.."

 No shit.

that's what this whole thing's about right?  Aren't you guys getting all excited about what could happen?

WSS

I mean...What negatively could happen at its worse.

That's like me saying we are no doubt blowing everyone out through to the Superbowl. 

Unnecessarily extreme...lol

[Orion]

Supposedly, the Browns started work on Watson back in November.  Obviously, they already knew that the position needed to be upgraded...and that the draft class was not going to be the answer...and that the team is built to win now.  (Of course OBJ leaving left us with a WR room that wasn't ready to win now)

Let's face it, Baker has not been a very good 4th quarter QB.  Although there are many examples, the playoff game against the Chiefs is one that most football fans, GM's, coaches, etc. could relate to actually seeing.  With Mahomes in the locker room in the 4th quarter, we could not score points to win the game.  Some might argue that Baker didn't lose us the game.  And...Oookayy...but we DO know that he didn't WIN it for us.  We've counted on Chubb and D'Ernest to 'save' games for us by grinding out tough 1st downs to get the clock to double zeros.   Stef did everything he could to keep Baker out of having to win the game...because he knew that he wasn't dependable to deliver.  During games we would see Steff try passes when we thought we should run...but that would give Baker better odds at completions...and those completions would open up the running game even more.  But he'd throw it over the receiver's head...or behind him. 

Many of us on this board have not felt real good about Baker for some time now.  And the Browns org obviously felt the same way for at least as long.  Remember, all they ever did with Baker was to pick up his 5th year option...which of course they are now regretting. 

 

[Canton Dawg]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Let's face it, Baker has not been a very good 4th quarter QB.  Although there are many examples, the playoff game against the Chiefs is one that most football fans, GM's, coaches, etc. could relate to actually seeing.  With Mahomes in the locker room in the 4th quarter, we could not score points to win the game.

I think you’re forgetting the helmet to helmet hit on Higgins late in the game at the goal line.

The ball went out of bounds in the end zone, which was a turnover.

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Canton Dawg said:

I think you’re forgetting the helmet to helmet hit on Higgins

I remember the play.  Ironic, Higgins was just that close to being a good receiver.  And now they're both gone.  (in Baker's case, all but gone).

[laiccm]

10 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

I think you’re forgetting the helmet to helmet hit on Higgins late in the game at the goal line.

The ball went out of bounds in the end zone, which was a turnover.

I think you forget we were about to get blown out before Mahomes got injured and that we had multiple chances 

[Canton Dawg]

10 minutes ago, laiccm said:

I think you forget we were about to get blown out before Mahomes got injured and that we had multiple chances 

I think you missed the point, a turnover at the goal line late in the game sealed the deal for K.C.

They managed to win by 5 points.

[laiccm]

Just now, Canton Dawg said:

I think you missed the point, a turnover at the goal line late in the game sealed the deal for K.C.

They managed to win by 5 points.

With their back up....Baker couldn't outplay the back up. Yes...that was a horrible missed call....also wouldve been null and void had Mahomes not got injured

[calfoxwc]

18 minutes ago, laiccm said:

With their back up....Baker couldn't outplay the back up. Yes...that was a horrible missed call....also wouldve been null and void had Mahomes not got injured

In fairness, KC had the best TE in football. The fastest, most elusive wr in football....? Baker has his faults, but if Baker had had Travis Kelce and Tyreek Hill, I can't imagine it not making a giant difference in the passing game.

Again, Doug Dieken mentioned more than once about the wr's not getting open.

Meanwhile..... saw on the news that a judge has ordered you know who to answer if he had sex with those 22 women or something like that.

I believe I saw where his attorney? said they would likely appeal. And his answer as to "why 22"....was bad.

Such a waste. To me, the browns just gave the finger to all the fans who are disgusted by this fiasco. How it turns out in the end, who knows. They went about it the wrong way, I think. Just when they were drafting brilliantly......this garbage happens. and THREE 1st round....

just seems the network money is their goal. Just my opinion.

    It's just too bad. So many fans did not need this controversy. A lot of folks would have been fine if the Browns got a new qb in the draft. or a trade - except this one. That is the problem.

The Rams were a complete team heading for the super bowl before obj jumped on board, btw. Just sayin.

[laiccm]

13 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

In fairness, KC had the best TE in football. The fastest, most elusive wr in football....? Baker has his faults, but if Baker had had Travis Kelce and Tyreek Hill, I can't imagine it not making a giant difference in the passing game.

Again, Doug Dieken mentioned more than once about the wr's not getting open.

Meanwhile..... saw on the news that a judge has ordered you know who to answer if he had sex with those 22 women or something like that.

I believe I saw where his attorney? said they would likely appeal. And his answer as to "why 22"....was bad.

Such a waste. To me, the browns just gave the finger to all the fans who are disgusted by this fiasco. How it turns out in the end, who knows. They went about it the wrong way, I think. Just when they were drafting brilliantly......this garbage happens. and THREE 1st round....

just seems the network money is their goal. Just my opinion.

    It's just too bad. So many fans did not need this controversy. A lot of folks would have been fine if the Browns got a new qb in the draft. or a trade - except this one. That is the problem.

The Rams were a complete team heading for the super bowl before obj jumped on board, btw. Just sayin.

Correct...KC had better wide recievers...but not a betterline or runnignbacks or defense.

Judge ordered him to answer if he had sept with the 18 women who actually came to his defense and his attorney asked for relevance. Legally the " shot in the dark".

We also so Baker just be terribly inaccurate...He is leading the league in interceptions for a reason

Not a waste...its the only shot. You can have a great roster (Rams, Tampa) but without an eite QB (Stafford and Brady vs Goff and Weisnten) you're not winning a Superbowl. What has picks gotten us before? How many 1st round picks have we wasted on QBs who we HOPE were good but turned out to be mediocre or bad?

Yes...the Rams were a complete team.....that kind of makes it worse that he still succeeded. Guess who also was a complete team...the Browns