RIP Bud Grant

[Bob806]

Bud Grant, legendary Minnesota Vikings coach passed away at age 95. 

I liked his Vikings teams, sadly they went 0-4 in Super Bowls. Fantastic defenses (Purple People Eaters), a scrappy QB in Fran Tarkenton, and Chuck Foreman, one heck of a RB. 

 

Bud Grant

[nickers]

RIP Coach...

[Orion]

God bless his soul and loved ones.  He coached many legendary players.  But he kept them frozen on the sidelines while the visitors had their sideline heaters.  I think that he would've struggled in today's NFL of analytics and player safety.

[Flugel]

11 hours ago, Orion said:

God bless his soul and loved ones.  He coached many legendary players.  But he kept them frozen on the sidelines while the visitors had their sideline heaters.  I think that he would've struggled in today's NFL of analytics and player safety.

All true and well said!

Interestingly/outrageously enough, they made it to 4 Super Bowls playing that way though.  Hard to believe a warmer neutral site at the Super Bowl cooled them off; but I think that was just a coincidence.  A closer look showed they lost to superior teams with a lot of HOF players coached by legends like Noll, Shula, Madden and Stram.  

When they modernized and played indoors, the Super Bowls went away completely.  They often choked in the playoffs including their 15-1 season where their place kicker that didn't miss a FG all season - missed what would have been a game winning FG from about 40 yards or so away.   They've had a lot of really potent offenses that just parked abruptly in the post seasons.  They also had some very good defensive players like John Randle, Keith Millard, Jared Allen, and more.  What they didn't have?  A Head Coach like Bud Grant to beat the teams they should have or upset the ones they shouldn't have.  

They've even become bigger pretenders in the current era.  I think the Giants are still scoring TDs on them as we speak.  

 

   

[Bob806]

24 minutes ago, Flugel said:

All true and well said!

Interestingly/outrageously enough, they made it to 4 Super Bowls playing that way though.  Hard to believe a warmer neutral site at the Super Bowl cooled them off; but I think that was just a coincidence.  A closer look showed they lost to superior teams with a lot of HOF players coached by legends like Noll, Shula, Madden and Stram.  

When they modernized and plated indoors, the Super Bowls went away completely.  They often choked in the playoffs including their 15-1 season where their place kicker that didn't miss a FG all season - missed what would have been a game winning FG from about 40 yards or so away.   They've had a lot of really potent offenses that just parked abruptly in the post seasons.  They also had some very good defensive players like John Randle, Keith Millard, Jared Allen, and more.  What they didn't have?  A Head Coach like Bud Grant to beat the teams they should have or upset the ones they shouldn't have.  

They've even become bigger pretenders in the current era.  I think the Giants are still scoring TDs on them as we speak.  

 

   

Yeah, the "black & blue division" kind of died when Detroit & Minnesota built their domes. 

The 16-6 Minnesota loss to the Steelers was an epic defensive game. Too bad the bad guys won it.

[ballpeen]

40 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Yeah, the "black & blue division" kind of died when Detroit & Minnesota built their domes. 

The 16-6 Minnesota loss to the Steelers was an epic defensive game. Too bad the bad guys won it.

RIP Coach Grant.

Domes didn't have anything to do with what you guys are talking about .   Rules changes and a changing football landscape is what changed all of that.

I think many times we talk about football as we  walk down memory lane and reminisce about how things were when we were 11 years old.  Well, lots has changed since then.  Guys like Alex Karras and Dick Butkus couldn't play today.  If not too slow, they would be banned for the way they played.

 

I don't know how far removed you are from 11 years old, but for me it's been over 60 years.

 

[Bob806]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

RIP Coach Grant.

Domes didn't have anything to do with what you guys are talking about .   Rules changes and a changing football landscape is what changed all of that.

I think many times we talk about football as we  walk down memory lane and reminisce about how things were when we were 11 years old.  Well, lots has changed since then.  Guys like Alex Karras and Dick Butkus couldn't play today.  If not too slow, they would be banned for the way they played.

 

I don't know how far removed you are from 11 years old, but for me it's been over 60 years.

 

I'm turning 60 at the end of April, so 49 years. 

I'd disagree with you on the black & blue division landscape. The Vikings had a clear home field advantage until they moved indoors. The Lions,well they're basically the Browns of the NFC (sadly). Green Bay & Chicago have had more success since the 80s when the Metrodome & Silverdome were built...if course some of that is having Favre & Rodgers for 25-30 years lol.

Reminiscing is great. Yeah, long time fans have seen many rules changes & different styles of football. Probably the biggest change is the RB position isn't emphasized like it was. 

I still think if you're a player, teams want you. Not fair to compare eras in that regard- Butkus was a stud in his era, had a nose for the football. 

 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

RIP Coach Grant.

Domes didn't have anything to do with what you guys are talking about .   Rules changes and a changing football landscape is what changed all of that.

I think many times we talk about football as we  walk down memory lane and reminisce about how things were when we were 11 years old.  Well, lots has changed since then.  Guys like Alex Karras and Dick Butkus couldn't play today.  If not too slow, they would be banned for the way they played.

 

I don't know how far removed you are from 11 years old, but for me it's been over 60 years.

 

There's no doubt rule changes have changed the land scape of football.  That doesn't change the truth that Minnesota went to all 4 Super Bowls ONLY when they played their seasons in an outdoor stadium.  You could be right that it's just a coincidence; but the frequency of that team making it to the Super Bowl flatlined since they went indoors. The word soft comes up way more frequently in association with that team than it did back when Bud Grant was coaching. 

What makes you think evolution would have avoided Karras and Butkus the opportunities to evolve as well?  It all begins with passion for the game, which both guys had.  When Tom Brady wasn't drafted until round 6 - did you remember seeing and hearing why he wasn't drafted until near the end of round 6?  Did any of it have to do with how accurate his arm was?  OR; did it have more to do with him running the 40 yard slightly faster than the speed of park?  Bill Belichick told him after his rookie year that he just needed to work on getting stronger.  When Gronk was on the radio here in Tampa - he told a story that he got to the workout facility at 6:15 am for a 6:30 workout thinking he was early.  Then he heard a loud energetic "You're late man, I'm almost done with my workout.  I've already been here an hour!"  It was Brady, preparing for the next season just a couple weeks after winning the Super Bowl.  

I always try to avoid comparing guys in different eras; because guys not named Jim Brown in previous eras tend to get disrespected.  For example, you're talking to us like if Dick Butkus was coming out today - he would park his passion and competitive attitude instead of joining all of the guys spending 6-8 weeks training at Exercise Phys/Human Performance Training Labs for the purpose of impressing NFL teams that will be drafting them in April. Aside from that, Butkus had great instincts on top of being a terrific tackler.  Why wouldn't any of that carry over to today's game?  You're saying Butkus couldn't play in today's game while you're favorite team drafted a piss poor tackler like Jacob Phillips in round 3 in 2020 to be a Mike. If you're instinctive, you can be just like Teddy Bruschi beating faster foot speeds of Indy Colts receivers/Others to the football in his hook zone. As for the rules, if guys like Joey Porter, Jack Lambert, James Harrison, Albert Haynesworth, Ndamokung Suh and others can survive rule changes over time - why wouldn't Butkus or Karras be able to?  A lot of Butkus' highlights are great form tackles.  A lot of James Harrison's ESPN highlights were of him leading with the crown of his helmet on defenseless Cleveland Browns Receivers like Josh Cribbs and Mohamed Massaquoi. Do you know what the biggest difference between Dick Butkus and James Harrison was aside from what LBer position they played?  One guy needed steroids after getting cut 3 different times early on and Butkus didn't.  Which guy should we be more impressed with?   

You brought up you've followed football for over 60 years which is impressive.  That being the case you are well aware new football never stops borrowing from old football.  For example, SF's WCO under Bill Walsh spread to Holmgren's GB Packers, Denny Green's Minnesota Vikings, Holmgren's Seattle Seahawks, Mooch's Detroit Lions, Andy Reid's Philadelphia Eagles, etc.  More important, Bill Walsh borrowed the main concepts/components of that offense from Paul Brown, Sid Gillman, Don Coryell. Do I dare say Otto Graham was a HOF QB for Paul Brown?  Historians know the guy led the Browns to 10 consecutive Pro Football Title Games and won 7 of them.  6 of those games were in the NFL and Otto and the Browns won 3 of those.   Evolution does have a way of sharpening/cleaning up the things the newer generations are barrowing before they add some sauce to it.

I'm only a 59 year old teenager; but football and the Cleveland Browns have always been my hobby.  I loved football enough to play it for 10 years and attend countless football camps before I got paid to coach it at the high school level.  And do know what?  There's still a lot more to watch, learn and celebrate especially if the Browns can start competing better in the draft...

[mjp28]

He was one of the old hard core NFL players and head coaches. 

I've had this deep in my files almost deleted it several times.   RIP coach.

 

[ballpeen]

What about the fact they never won a Superbowl?  Maybe if they had a dome they would have?  LOL  Yes, I know domes weren't really available at the time.

 

I still maintain my overriding point, dome or not has nothing to do with a teams ability to be good or win championships.  The better team usually wins.

 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

What about the fact they never won a Superbowl?  Maybe if they had a dome they would have?  LOL  Yes, I know domes weren't really available at the time.

 

I still maintain my overriding point, dome or not has nothing to do with a teams ability to be good or win championships.  The better team usually wins.

 

It doesn't look like you're satisfied with your point if you're trying to convince yourself of it all over again.  The sad thing was I posted I agreed with you while having fun with the coincidence of Minnesota's Super Bowl appearances flat lined after they became a dome team.  There was a whole thread full of opportunities for you to debate post season success and failures of dome teams with Zombo. 

Let's get back to Bud Grant.  Great Coach respected by all.  Nobody ever thought they were soft when he was their Head Coach.  That didn't start until... 😁

[mjp28]

52 minutes ago, Flugel said:

It doesn't look like you're satisfied with your point if you're trying to convince yourself of it all over again.  The sad thing was I posted I agreed with you while having fun with the coincidence of Minnesota's Super Bowl appearances flat lined after they became a dome team.  There was a whole thread full of opportunities for you to debate post season success and failures of dome teams with Zombo. 

Let's get back to Bud Grant.  Great Coach respected by all.  Nobody ever thought they were soft when he was their Head Coach.  That didn't start until... 😁

Yeah and Harry (Bud) Grant  a 6' - 2½"  202 lb 27 year old DE with two daughters.   Yeah that's 1952 tough, he lived in the same Minnesota city his whole life.   A well respected citizen by all that knew him.   Now that is a man, again  RIP Bud.