The Official Stadium Thread

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

Two years before Modell moved, the grumblings of his unhappiness were known.

Other than reports and chatter that Modell was an asshole, there really was not proper attention given to this, and the rest is history.

Enter Haslam. He has no historical love lost for Browns culture, history or anything else past what these things do for his pocketbook.

So now, he favors a stadium in Brookpark. What infrastructure is there to support the madness that is Browns weekends and tailgating?

I will be dollars to donuts that Haslam has already arranged right of first refusal on properties that would skyrocket in value should the stadium move.

Personally, I believe the Browns should play in Cleveland, right where they are. On the grounds that the team was planted in.

I find it funny that they can find venture capital for a new stadium, but not 1/50 of that capital to build new parking decks and the amenities they feel downtown needs to make games an easier experience to enjoy.

Again, to me, the Brookpark Browns are no different than the Baltimore Browns.

 

[Orion]

5 minutes ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

to me, the Brookpark Browns are no different than the Baltimore Browns.

 

So if you were a Boston Patriots fan you would not have supported the New England Patriots.  

[ballpeen]

2 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Two years before Modell moved, the grumblings of his unhappiness were known.

Other than reports and chatter that Modell was an asshole, there really was not proper attention given to this, and the rest is history.

Enter Haslam. He has no historical love lost for Browns culture, history or anything else past what these things do for his pocketbook.

So now, he favors a stadium in Brookpark. What infrastructure is there to support the madness that is Browns weekends and tailgating?

I will be dollars to donuts that Haslam has already arranged right of first refusal on properties that would skyrocket in value should the stadium move.

Personally, I believe the Browns should play in Cleveland, right where they are. On the grounds that the team was planted in.

I find it funny that they can find venture capital for a new stadium, but not 1/50 of that capital to build new parking decks and the amenities they feel downtown needs to make games an easier experience to enjoy.

Again, to me, the Brookpark Browns are no different than the Baltimore Browns.

 

Well Ghoolie, I disagree.  There are multiple examples of teams playing outside the city limits of their named team.

 

I consider myself a Clevelander even though I grew up in Bay Village.  I don't know if you know the area, but it is a suburb maybe 15-20 miles west of town.  I have lived away from the area for over 50 years now but when people ask me where I am from, I say Cleveland, or the Cleveland area.  People know that.  They don't know Bay Village  from squat even though Bay is a very upscale suburb.  Anybody who lives in the area knows Bay is a desirable address.

I think a dome is a needed addition to the area, even though I don't live there.  I have been to at least dozens of games at the old stadium and having had season tickets since 2003(? maybe 150 games at the current, we need a dome.  

 

I had nice seats on the 45 yard line, upper deck, 18 rows up to start, but after 3-4 years I moved to the club section.  The only place to get any heat was the restroom.  Let's face it, you can only stand in a restroom so long before you look like some sort of a freak...lol.

 

I want the conditioned environment.  The players want that.  This idea the game was supposed to be played in crap weather is bogus.  Back in the day, seasons were over by mid December....championship games.

 

College football has bowl games.  Why are they not played in places like Cleveland, Green Bay?  Because people aren't stupid enough to pay money to watch a game in crap conditions.  They will go to places like New Orleans, Miami and Pasadena.

 

Just my take.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

5 hours ago, Orion said:

So if you were a Boston Patriots fan you would not have supported the New England Patriots.  

You are mixing apples and oranges. I didn't say anything about being a fan or supporting the Browns.

The topic is the stadium.

But let me flip your scenario back, what if they rename the Browns, the Ohio Browns? Or.the N.E..Ohio Browns?

I am in favor of tradition. WTF does Haslam need with a new stadium?

Astroturf and a dome? Yes, and also pantyhose for all the feminists men who support this bullshit.

The city filed to a complaint requesting the "Modell rule to be enforced. Frankly, the best thing that could happen is Haslam being forced to sell the team.

[TexasAg1969]

5 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Astroturf and a dome? Yes, and also pantyhose for all the feminists men who support this bullshit.

I admit I am a cold weather pussy. I keep a blanket on when my wife is around because she sets the temp too low at 73F and the vent blows right on me. And I won't go outside to mow the yard in any temp lower than 75F. I might get frostbite. Give me 90 or above for all outdoor activities. That I got used to in Venezuela year round. I think I may be the only guy in Vietnam who loved the tropics. 🌞

[nickers]

8 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I admit I am a cold weather pussy. I keep a blanket on when my wife is around because she sets the temp too low at 73F and the vent blows right on me. And I won't go outside to mow the yard in any temp lower than 75F. I might get frostbite. Give me 90 or above for all outdoor activities. That I got used to in Venezuela year round. I think I may be the only guy in Vietnam who loved the tropics. 🌞

My stepfather who was a Viet Nam vet loved hot weather also.. He loved being in Florida and loved the humidity...

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

14 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I admit I am a cold weather pussy. I keep a blanket on when my wife is around because she sets the temp too low at 73F and the vent blows right on me. And I won't go outside to mow the yard in any temp lower than 75F. I might get frostbite. Give me 90 or above for all outdoor activities. That I got used to in Venezuela year round. I think I may be the only guy in Vietnam who loved the tropics. 🌞

I have seen more than enough of you to know that you aren't a pussy.

I really think this stadium shit is a big issue..

Mistake on the Lake guys like me are dying out, but it is in our nature to not let go of the past.

Being honest, I doubt that I will ever see another football game in person. The rowdiness and violence is just getting worse.

But you know how it is, if you are a Browns fan you know more than everyone else.

My wife and I cruise 6 times a year with MSC in something called Yacht Club. We have a butler and an assistant butler. WTF dude, I am the real life Jedd Clampett.

However, I don't trust the NFL and surely I don't trust the Haslams. These team movers always start with these same innocuous seeds of discontent.

"We need a new house to stay competitive" "We have to set a civic example".

Bally's agreed to demolish and sell the Tropicana property to bring the Oakland A's.

Already with a profitable casino now 1/2 demolished the owner is balking. He is trying to raise $500 M in debt and equity to steal tax payer money. Nobody wants to cough up a penny to the losing pile of Depodesta shit.

Bally's expected cash to begin a mega casino in Chicago and now are playing with their nutsack.

That's howbthesebfucker work dude. The create roses, the roses with and THEN.....we were just financially forced to move the team.

Fuck Haslam. I hope he dies on top of his wifeafter farting, tonight.

Spruce up the stadium and play fooball.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 5/11/2024 at 10:34 PM, ballpeen said:

Well Ghoolie, I disagree.  There are multiple examples of teams playing outside the city limits of their named team.

 

I consider myself a Clevelander even though I grew up in Bay Village.  I don't know if you know the area, but it is a suburb maybe 15-20 miles west of town.  I have lived away from the area for over 50 years now but when people ask me where I am from, I say Cleveland, or the Cleveland area.  People know that.  They don't know Bay Village  from squat even though Bay is a very upscale suburb.  Anybody who lives in the area knows Bay is a desirable address.

I think a dome is a needed addition to the area, even though I don't live there.  I have been to at least dozens of games at the old stadium and having had season tickets since 2003(? maybe 150 games at the current, we need a dome.  

 

I had nice seats on the 45 yard line, upper deck, 18 rows up to start, but after 3-4 years I moved to the club section.  The only place to get any heat was the restroom.  Let's face it, you can only stand in a restroom so long before you look like some sort of a freak...lol.

 

I want the conditioned environment.  The players want that.  This idea the game was supposed to be played in crap weather is bogus.  Back in the day, seasons were over by mid December....championship games.

 

College football has bowl games.  Why are they not played in places like Cleveland, Green Bay?  Because people aren't stupid enough to pay money to watch a game in crap conditions.  They will go to places like New Orleans, Miami and Pasadena.

 

Just my take.

As I said to Tex, I fully understand your feelings. All that you say is sensible and even secretly has my support.

I am an old fart, ya know? I am a 69 year old guy watching the punt dissappear over the second deck overhang with 10 year old eyes.

So much of our lives is tied up in this shit. I will be fine with a Brookpark stadium, but thatndoesn't mean I won't pull chains and call.you domers, pussies.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

A few things.

Dec 2000 was the last time I was in the stadium. It was amazing, then.

Has it deteriorated in 25 years that it really isn't up for the task? My God where did the time go?

Is it more the case of times have changed and a dome and more creature features are just the standard of today's fan?

Financially, I believe the citizen gets the least benefit, a consolation prize if you will.

It is also worthy of discussion as ask, in 2055 when the Brookbark stadium has the owner demanding a new home......where does that one get built? I doubt that the old/existing site will be vacant.

Vegas needs to raise $1.5 billion for a crappy 30,000 seat dome. The court today ruled that citizens do not have a right to block the $385 MM that taxpayers will contribute to the Athletics.

So, those regular stadium dwellers, what say ye?

 

 

[ballpeen]

We need to know the entire story.  Is the money already appropriated by already voted on existing law?  Sin tax, whatever it might be called.  

 

Cleveland has this in place.  I don't think any new taxes will go towards the stadium fund.  They are already being collected.

 

I don't like to say this as I have already said I consider myself a Clevelander until death.   The Cleveland city council thinks like Wal-Mart shoppers.  They fucked up the last move, and now want to take the cheap way out of things, and will fuck this up again.

 

Haslam has vision.  The elected representatives don't.  They are simpletons elected by simpletons.

[nickers]

3 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

We need to know the entire story.  Is the money already appropriated by already voted on existing law?  Sin tax, whatever it might be called.  

 

Cleveland has this in place.  I don't think any new taxes will go towards the stadium fund.  They are already being collected.

 

I don't like to say this as I have already said I consider myself a Clevelander until death.   The Cleveland city council thinks like Wal-Mart shoppers.  They fucked up the last move, and now want to take the cheap way out of things, and will fuck this up again.

 

Haslam has vision.  The elected representatives don't.  They are simpletons elected by simpletons.

Hiring De"pud"esta is not my idea of "Vision"

[ballpeen]

2 minutes ago, nickers said:

Hiring De"pud"esta is not my idea of "Vision"

Why would you say that?   Based on what?

[nickers]

10 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Why would you say that?   Based on what?

Because I believe he meddles too much... He has too much power to dictate what the coaches are allowed or not allowed to do... You know they have a weekly meeting where he gets to review and over see and dictate game plan don't you?

[Orion]

Ghoolie = Sybil  

You say stuff that sounds like you're insane...and that I don't agree with.  And then the next day you sound sane and say stuff that I agree with.  And it's on the same friggin' topic.  And then you disappear.   You're like virtual particles.  

[TexasAg1969]

7 hours ago, Orion said:

Ghoolie = Sybil  

You say stuff that sounds like you're insane...and that I don't agree with.  And then the next day you sound sane and say stuff that I agree with.  And it's on the same friggin' topic.  And then you disappear.   You're like virtual particles.  

When will you learn the difference between Ghoolie and Tom? Hint one is a chain yanker and the other is just a wanker yanker.😁

[Flugel]

8 hours ago, nickers said:

Because I believe he meddles too much... He has too much power to dictate what the coaches are allowed or not allowed to do... You know they have a weekly meeting where he gets to review and over see and dictate game plan don't you?

As much as I didn't like learning about that weekly meeting micro-management stuff a year or 2 ago.  Maybe what I should have considered was - is this his way of making sure everyone is ready to go with the film they've seen on the opponent, the practices preparing for the game, and how can Office DePo help with anything the coaching staff needed for the game.  I doubt he's teaching an experienced Coach a lot of new things on the field per say; but it could be a simple matter of making sure the communication process is ready to rock.  Some coaches gotta work with the players on the sidelines between series while others assist Coordinators viewing the opponents formations from a booth above. Why all that?  Remember when we would have too many men on the field at the worst of times?  Hindsight on some of that has me understanding why they have this meeting.  Last but not least, Stefanski has been the NFL Coach of the Year twice in his 4 years here.  I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong.  I'm just saying it may be more helpful than I gave it credit for being back when I completely agreed with your feeling above.

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

When will you learn the difference between Ghoolie and Tom? Hint one is a chain yanker and the other is just a wanker yanker.😁

One is really wealthy and the other lives in Memphis.  One of them can be really fun while the other wants to remain that 3rd grade kid that told a bunch of Kindergarten kids at the bus stop - there is no Santa Claus.  I still haven't gotten over that.  I almost wanted to be a 9-1-1 Operator when I got older just so I could answer his call some day with "9-1-1 Can you hold?"

 

[nickers]

29 minutes ago, Flugel said:

As much as I didn't like learning about that weekly meeting micro-management stuff a year or 2 ago.  Maybe what I should have considered was - is this his way of making sure everyone is ready to go with the film they've seen on the opponent, the practices preparing for the game, and how can Office DePo help with anything the coaching staff needed for the game.  I doubt he's teaching an experienced Coach a lot of new things on the field per say; but it could be a simple matter of making sure the communication process is ready to rock.  Some coaches gotta work with the players on the sidelines between series while others assist Coordinators viewing the opponents formations from a booth above. Why all that?  Remember when we would have too many men on the field at the worst of times?  Hindsight on some of that has me understanding why they have this meeting.  Last but not least, Stefanski has been the NFL Coach of the Year twice in his 4 years here.  I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong.  I'm just saying it may be more helpful than I gave it credit for being back when I completely agreed with your feeling above.

It's a coaches duty to be on top of game time management in my mind.... I like a situation where the F.O. takes care of the business aspect and letting coaches do what they are paid to do.. Especially in a day and age where everything is so micro specialized to some large degree...

[Flugel]

16 minutes ago, nickers said:

It's a coaches duty to be on top of game time management in my mind.... I like a situation where the F.O. takes care of the business aspect and letting coaches do what they are paid to do.. Especially in a day and age where everything is so micro specialized to some large degree...

Good points.  My guess is because they let Stefanski call the plays as HC instead of empowering his OC to do so - those meetings were mostly to assure the owner and DePo that all the other stuff would run efficiently. I mentioned some things but they want to make sure all coaches were utilized while players could receive some coaching needed between series.

[hoorta]

17 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

A few things.

Dec 2000 was the last time I was in the stadium. It was amazing, then.

Has it deteriorated in 25 years that it really isn't up for the task? My God where did the time go?

Is it more the case of times have changed and a dome and more creature features are just the standard of today's fan?

Financially, I believe the citizen gets the least benefit, a consolation prize if you will.

It is also worthy of discussion as ask, in 2055 when the Brookbark stadium has the owner demanding a new home......where does that one get built? I doubt that the old/existing site will be vacant.

Vegas needs to raise $1.5 billion for a crappy 30,000 seat dome. The court today ruled that citizens do not have a right to block the $385 MM that taxpayers will contribute to the Athletics.

So, those regular stadium dwellers, what say ye?

 

I'll say that me and Ballpeen respectfully have different perspectives on the stadium issue. My Bucket List wanderings of seeing the Browns play in every NFL venue is at 11, so I sort of feel qualified to opine on the issue. 

Waahhhhh...  We need a dome. MHO? No we don't- and I'm as old as Ballpeen. My dome visits include Ford Field (Lions), Lucas Oil (Colts), and NRG (Texans). Nice places, but if that's the atmosphere you prefer, I suggest you stay home and watch the game on your widescreen in your living room- the ambiance is similar, and you'll save yourself a ton of money in the process.  Yeah, the amenities in the concourse are nicer- but more on that later. 

I don't want to be cold!!!  Waahhhhaaa!!! Tell that to the folks up in Green Bay (Lambeau) or Kansas City (Arrowhead) speaking of- some folks lost body parts freezing off during that Playoff game. See any news- gee we gotta build a new stadium, and have a dome there? Didn't think so. Ergo- we gotta build a new pleasure palace every 25 years to keep the owner happy is bullshit. FWIW, the Bills new stadium is going to be open air, and Buffalo weather late fall and early winter is a damnsite worse than Cleveland's. 

A disclaimer, and a couple final comments. I may not be as hardy as I was back 30- 40 years ago but you can see from my sig line I did plenty of mountaineering and cold weather camping back then. I still get out on my bike when the temperature is in the 30s, with single digit wind chills. Cold doesn't become a factor until well below zero or huge wind chills....  IF you know how to dress for it. OK a little FYI, you guys remember the Bengals Chargers froze bowl playoff game? I took a couple ski runs that day at Snowshoe in West Virginia with an air temperature of -29, and a wind chill of -78.  Yeah, now that's severe weather.   

My thoughts on remodeling First Energy?  It goes back to the way First Energy was built- with the thought they wanted to keep the "feel" of the old place. BIG mistake. That's my #1 observation & complaint with a bullet. The concourse behind the stands in Cleveland is sardine city. Visit any of the domed venues, or even the Bengals renamed Paycor... There's at LEAST triple, and maybe more breathing room behind the stands. That could be rectified the way Ohio State and the Bears did it, build a shell around the old place, and expand outward and upward.   Yeah City of Cleveland- you have some work to do besides, like rerouting the Shoreway, and building that bridge over the railroad tracks.  

PS- if Haslam really wants a Dome in Brookpark- just build it yourself- with your own money. Same way Kroenke built So Fi in LA.   For sure, with a new Dome will come increased prices, and this season ticket holder since 1999 (Section 111 Row 9) has already reached the pain threshold. With driving costs, parking, and going to the game with the wife or a friend tops $500 bucks in my case. 

[nickers]

12 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'll say that me and Ballpeen respectfully have different perspectives on the stadium issue. My Bucket List wanderings of seeing the Browns play in every NFL venue is at 11, so I sort of feel qualified to opine on the issue. 

Waahhhhh...  We need a dome. MHO? No we don't- and I'm as old as Ballpeen. My dome visits include Ford Field (Lions), Lucas Oil (Colts), and NRG (Texans). Nice places, but if that's the atmosphere you prefer, I suggest you stay home and watch the game on your widescreen in your living room- the ambiance is similar, and you'll save yourself a ton of money in the process.  Yeah, the amenities in the concourse are nicer- but more on that later. 

I don't want to be cold!!!  Waahhhhaaa!!! Tell that to the folks up in Green Bay (Lambeau) or Kansas City (Arrowhead) speaking of- some folks lost body parts freezing off during that Playoff game. See any news- gee we gotta build a new stadium, and have a dome there? Didn't think so. Ergo- we gotta build a new pleasure palace every 25 years to keep the owner happy is bullshit. FWIW, the Bills new stadium is going to be open air, and Buffalo weather late fall and early winter is a damnsite worse than Cleveland's. 

A disclaimer, and a couple final comments. I may not be as hardy as I was back 30- 40 years ago but you can see from my sig line I did plenty of mountaineering and cold weather camping back then. I still get out on my bike when the temperature is in the 30s, with single digit wind chills. Cold doesn't become a factor until well below zero or huge wind chills....  IF you know how to dress for it. OK a little FYI, you guys remember the Bengals Chargers froze bowl playoff game? I took a couple ski runs that day at Snowshoe in West Virginia with an air temperature of -29, and a wind chill of -78.  Yeah, now that's severe weather.   

My thoughts on remodeling First Energy?  It goes back to the way First Energy was built- with the thought they wanted to keep the "feel" of the old place. BIG mistake. that's my #1 observation & complaint with a bullet. The concourse behind the stands in Cleveland is sardine city. Visit any of the domed venues, or even the Bengals renamed Paycor... There's at LEAST triple, and maybe more breathing room behind the stands. That could be rectified the way Ohio State and the Bears did it, build a shell around the old place, and expand outward and upward.   Yeah City of Cleveland- you have some work to do besides, like rerouting the Shoreway, and building that bridge over the railroad tracks.  

PS- if Haslam really wants a Dome in Brookpark- just build it yourself- with your own money. Same way Kroenke built So Fi in LA.   For sure, with a new Dome will come increased prices, and this season ticket holder since 1999 (Section 111 Row 9) has already reached the pain threshold. With driving costs, parking, and going to the game with the wife or a friend tops $500 bucks in my case. 

Agreed.. Like you said... If they're gonna build a dome.. you might as well stay at home.. why build a dome when you can save money on heating and powering costs.. etc... All they would do is pass that cost on to the customer.. The average income family can barely afford the cost of a game as it is...  Jimmy is constantly finding more ways to alienate fans... This might be one of them...

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

Agreed.. Like you said... If they're gonna build a dome.. you might as well stay at home.. why build a dome when you can save money on heating and powering costs.. etc... All they would do is pass that cost on to the customer.. The average income family can barely afford the cost of a game as it is...  Jimmy is constantly finding more ways to alienate fans... This might be one of them...

In years past, we have gone to games in nice weather, cold weather, even blizzards. It's been many years, but I still remember going to see the game - I forget the opponent - but it was a hell of a blizzard. So many empty seats, we sat

above the entrance/exit of the team. It was a hell of a lot of fun - you just have to know how to dress for the weather. I've never forgotten those kinds of games.

The players were all smiles as they passed beneath us - and let us know they appreciated us hanging in there with them.

  With a dome, it seems that the best place to watch the game from is home.

The Haslams seem to be going woke for more $$$$$.

Whatever - I've never had season tickets, I'll defer to those who go to a lot of games.

[Flugel]

On 5/11/2024 at 9:48 PM, Orion said:

So if you were a Boston Patriots fan you would not have supported the New England Patriots.  

Wait until Rip Van Winkle wakes up.  Who wants to tell him that the Giants AND the Jets play in New Jersey now?  Once he starts to understand that - someone will have to tell him they're still called the New York Giants and the New York Jets.  After that, it'll be easy to tell him the Buffalo Bills play in Orchard Park.

[ballpeen]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Agreed.. Like you said... If they're gonna build a dome.. you might as well stay at home.. why build a dome when you can save money on heating and powering costs.. etc... All they would do is pass that cost on to the customer.. The average income family can barely afford the cost of a game as it is...  Jimmy is constantly finding more ways to alienate fans... This might be one of them...

It isn't so much about the weather as it is being able to use the thing year round.

[Orion]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

it'll be easy to tell him the Buffalo Bills play in Orchard Park

Oh, I don't think so.  He doesn't like anyplace with 'park' in it.   

[nickers]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

It isn't so much about the weather as it is being able to use the thing year round.

What?.. More shitty Kenny Chesney concerts?... No thanks...

[ballpeen]

5 hours ago, nickers said:

What?.. More shitty Kenny Chesney concerts?... No thanks...

It's not about just what you like.  It's about having a facility that can be used dozens of times a year and become an economic engine for all of NE Ohio.  That point really isn't debatable when comparing to an upgraded outdoor stadium.

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

It's not about just what you like.  It's about having a facility that can be used dozens of times a year and become an economic engine for all of NE Ohio.  That point really isn't debatable when comparing to an upgraded outdoor stadium.

Well you are debating with nickers, who was possibly the inspiration for the old saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."

Over a billion dollars to renovate an open air stadium that barely gets used and I guarantee the Haslams will still not like (and want replaced as soon as possible) is a tough pill to swallow. 

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Well you are debating with nickers, who was possibly the inspiration for the old saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience."

Over a billion dollars to renovate an open air stadium that barely gets used and I guarantee the Haslams will still not like (and want replaced as soon as possible) is a tough pill to swallow. 

Spending 1.2 billion on a renovation would be a poison pill.  No matter what is said and done, it will still be an old stadium in new clothes and have the same amount of function as the current stadium.

[Flugel]

16 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'll say that me and Ballpeen respectfully have different perspectives on the stadium issue. My Bucket List wanderings of seeing the Browns play in every NFL venue is at 11, so I sort of feel qualified to opine on the issue. 

Waahhhhh...  We need a dome. MHO? No we don't- and I'm as old as Ballpeen. My dome visits include Ford Field (Lions), Lucas Oil (Colts), and NRG (Texans). Nice places, but if that's the atmosphere you prefer, I suggest you stay home and watch the game on your widescreen in your living room- the ambiance is similar, and you'll save yourself a ton of money in the process.  Yeah, the amenities in the concourse are nicer- but more on that later. 

I don't want to be cold!!!  Waahhhhaaa!!! Tell that to the folks up in Green Bay (Lambeau) or Kansas City (Arrowhead) speaking of- some folks lost body parts freezing off during that Playoff game. See any news- gee we gotta build a new stadium, and have a dome there? Didn't think so. Ergo- we gotta build a new pleasure palace every 25 years to keep the owner happy is bullshit. FWIW, the Bills new stadium is going to be open air, and Buffalo weather late fall and early winter is a damnsite worse than Cleveland's. 

A disclaimer, and a couple final comments. I may not be as hardy as I was back 30- 40 years ago but you can see from my sig line I did plenty of mountaineering and cold weather camping back then. I still get out on my bike when the temperature is in the 30s, with single digit wind chills. Cold doesn't become a factor until well below zero or huge wind chills....  IF you know how to dress for it. OK a little FYI, you guys remember the Bengals Chargers froze bowl playoff game? I took a couple ski runs that day at Snowshoe in West Virginia with an air temperature of -29, and a wind chill of -78.  Yeah, now that's severe weather.   

My thoughts on remodeling First Energy?  It goes back to the way First Energy was built- with the thought they wanted to keep the "feel" of the old place. BIG mistake. That's my #1 observation & complaint with a bullet. The concourse behind the stands in Cleveland is sardine city. Visit any of the domed venues, or even the Bengals renamed Paycor... There's at LEAST triple, and maybe more breathing room behind the stands. That could be rectified the way Ohio State and the Bears did it, build a shell around the old place, and expand outward and upward.   Yeah City of Cleveland- you have some work to do besides, like rerouting the Shoreway, and building that bridge over the railroad tracks.  

PS- if Haslam really wants a Dome in Brookpark- just build it yourself- with your own money. Same way Kroenke built So Fi in LA.   For sure, with a new Dome will come increased prices, and this season ticket holder since 1999 (Section 111 Row 9) has already reached the pain threshold. With driving costs, parking, and going to the game with the wife or a friend tops $500 bucks in my case. 

I understand every point you made. Cleveland hasn't exactly been Green Bay in the Super Bowl era nor has the Chicago Bears.  Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers never even played in 1 playoff game during their entire careers with the Bears. The fact that the ONLY 2 QBs many of our fans have lasting fond memories with are Brian Sipe (13th round pick) and hometown hero Bernie Kosar (1985 SUPPLEMENTAL Draft Pick) reminds us if you can't draft and understand how to develop an NFL QB - you're not gonna make it to many Super Bowls.  Hate it or love it, I firmly believe if our 1980 Browns played the Raiders indoors - the better team would have won the playoff game that day instead of the weather.  

Now that it's an era where the league has chosen to make life easier for the passing game with the aim to score more points - we can see a QB with as many as 60 pass attempts in 1 game.  We're seeing guys throw for over 5000 yards (Jameis in TB) before the 17 game schedules.  And why?  The NFL has insatiable greed via it's NFL Ticket monopoly generating higher than ever shared revenue profits for the 32 NFL owners (that far exceed their revenues from home attendance).  We're already consumers so their primary targets are fans that are still learning the NFL game on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean and in Central/South America.