Orion Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: Over a billion dollars to renovate an open air stadium that barely gets used and I guarantee the Haslams will still not like (and want replaced as soon as possible) is a tough pill to swallow. Lipstick on a pig. We may not like the crooked Haslems...but they're all we've got. Do yas like the sound of 'Cleveland Browns'? Or would you prefer the 'East BumFuck Browns' playing in who knows what part of the country. How many times do ya wanna lose your football team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, ballpeen said: Spending 1.2 billion on a renovation would be a poison pill. No matter what is said and done, it will still be an old stadium in new clothes and have the same amount of function as the current stadium. While this is true, I'm not a fan of a stadium with multiple uses. Motorcross, tractor pulls, concerts, whatever. I would have thought when the built this current stadium, they would have built it to me versatile to upgrades in the first place, like a retractable roof, whatever. Rock concerts in a football stadium seems stupid to me, but then again, I'm older than Ghoolie. and having heavy traffic is tolerable, I guess, for people who drive past - but all summer long at times? But I'm just guessing - we don't drive up that way hardly at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 12 hours ago, ballpeen said: It's not about just what you like. It's about having a facility that can be used dozens of times a year and become an economic engine for all of NE Ohio. That point really isn't debatable when comparing to an upgraded outdoor stadium. 'Peen, it's a big "maybe" that you'd ever get a positive return on your investment of spending $2 billion+ now on a domed facility. Yeah, I did a little research taking a look at Lucas Oil. A Super Bowl, NFL Combine, and Big 10 Football championship are the big $$ events. Add in a few tractor pulls, concerts, and conventions (yeah the National Catholic Eucharistic Conference is there this summer) but does that add up to $2 billion? I suppose hotels and restaurants make a lot of money when events like that come to town. 😉 BTW, even if NE Ohio builds a dome, well... For big events- you're just competing with other cities that have domed stadiums- like NRG, Lucas Oil, and US Bank. PS- something interesting I read from the Indy Star when I was looking at stuff about Lucas Oil. Indianapolis imploded the old RCA Dome- and they're still paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 6 hours ago, Orion said: Lipstick on a pig. We may not like the crooked Haslems...but they're all we've got. Do yas like the sound of 'Cleveland Browns'? Or would you prefer the 'East BumFuck Browns' playing in who knows what part of the country. How many times do ya wanna lose your football team? What are you talking about Orion? I'm saying that spending over a billion dollars to renovate a stadium that the Haslams don't like and don't want seems like a very, very expensive band aid. Obviously something is going to have go be done, but I hate the idea of spending that much money to only do this again relatively soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, hoorta said: 😉 BTW, even if NE Ohio builds a dome, well... For big events- you're just competing with other cities that have domed stadiums- like NRG, Lucas Oil, and US Bank. PS- something interesting I read from the Indy Star when I was looking at stuff about Lucas Oil. Indianapolis imploded the old RCA Dome- and they're still paying for it. 1. That is true. Almost every NFL team contemplating a new stadium is talking domes. 2. On the flip side, the Vikings new dome that the Haslams like so much that they hired the same architects to come up with renderings of their Brookpark dome, is already paid off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, calfoxwc said: . I would have thought when the built this current stadium, they would have built it to me versatile to upgrades in the first place, like a retractable roof, whatever. Give all of us a list of stadiums that were retro-fitted with a retractable dome. You are so laughably brain-dead on virtually any topic you make the mistake of commenting on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: What are you talking about Orion? I was agreeing with you. And expanding on your post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 11 hours ago, hoorta said: 'Peen, it's a big "maybe" that you'd ever get a positive return on your investment of spending $2 billion+ now on a domed facility. Yeah, I did a little research taking a look at Lucas Oil. A Super Bowl, NFL Combine, and Big 10 Football championship are the big $$ events. Add in a few tractor pulls, concerts, and conventions (yeah the National Catholic Eucharistic Conference is there this summer) but does that add up to $2 billion? I suppose hotels and restaurants make a lot of money when events like that come to town. 😉 BTW, even if NE Ohio builds a dome, well... For big events- you're just competing with other cities that have domed stadiums- like NRG, Lucas Oil, and US Bank. PS- something interesting I read from the Indy Star when I was looking at stuff about Lucas Oil. Indianapolis imploded the old RCA Dome- and they're still paying for it. No doubt you aren't going to get the ROI in one year. I'd also say life is always a "maybe". I do know a $billion change of clothes is a waste of money. You will still have an old outdoor stadium where you aren't going to get many of the events you mentioned, and there really is no way to get around that fact. My entire argument is for Cleveland, but to me Cleveland is the entire area, not just bound by the Cleveland city limits. In the end, I don't give a shit about the stadium. My days of being a season ticket holder are nearing an end. By the time whatever project is complete, I probably won't hold tickets anymore. I'll just grab some tickets to a couple of games and that will satisfy my need to go to games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Always Ghoolie Posted May 17 Author Report Share Posted May 17 On 5/14/2024 at 2:22 PM, hoorta said: I'll say that me and Ballpeen respectfully have different perspectives on the stadium issue. My Bucket List wanderings of seeing the Browns play in every NFL venue is at 11, so I sort of feel qualified to opine on the issue. Waahhhhh... We need a dome. MHO? No we don't- and I'm as old as Ballpeen. My dome visits include Ford Field (Lions), Lucas Oil (Colts), and NRG (Texans). Nice places, but if that's the atmosphere you prefer, I suggest you stay home and watch the game on your widescreen in your living room- the ambiance is similar, and you'll save yourself a ton of money in the process. Yeah, the amenities in the concourse are nicer- but more on that later. I don't want to be cold!!! Waahhhhaaa!!! Tell that to the folks up in Green Bay (Lambeau) or Kansas City (Arrowhead) speaking of- some folks lost body parts freezing off during that Playoff game. See any news- gee we gotta build a new stadium, and have a dome there? Didn't think so. Ergo- we gotta build a new pleasure palace every 25 years to keep the owner happy is bullshit. FWIW, the Bills new stadium is going to be open air, and Buffalo weather late fall and early winter is a damnsite worse than Cleveland's. A disclaimer, and a couple final comments. I may not be as hardy as I was back 30- 40 years ago but you can see from my sig line I did plenty of mountaineering and cold weather camping back then. I still get out on my bike when the temperature is in the 30s, with single digit wind chills. Cold doesn't become a factor until well below zero or huge wind chills.... IF you know how to dress for it. OK a little FYI, you guys remember the Bengals Chargers froze bowl playoff game? I took a couple ski runs that day at Snowshoe in West Virginia with an air temperature of -29, and a wind chill of -78. Yeah, now that's severe weather. My thoughts on remodeling First Energy? It goes back to the way First Energy was built- with the thought they wanted to keep the "feel" of the old place. BIG mistake. That's my #1 observation & complaint with a bullet. The concourse behind the stands in Cleveland is sardine city. Visit any of the domed venues, or even the Bengals renamed Paycor... There's at LEAST triple, and maybe more breathing room behind the stands. That could be rectified the way Ohio State and the Bears did it, build a shell around the old place, and expand outward and upward. Yeah City of Cleveland- you have some work to do besides, like rerouting the Shoreway, and building that bridge over the railroad tracks. PS- if Haslam really wants a Dome in Brookpark- just build it yourself- with your own money. Same way Kroenke built So Fi in LA. For sure, with a new Dome will come increased prices, and this season ticket holder since 1999 (Section 111 Row 9) has already reached the pain threshold. With driving costs, parking, and going to the game with the wife or a friend tops $500 bucks in my case. Good to see you still kicking my old friend. I am , for my preferences always, anti-dome. Like you, I have experienced dome football and it just left me flat. But you know that times change and often what guys like us grew up on gets passed for this softer fan of today. I doubt that I will be here when the Brookpark replacement happens in 2060. My concern is that first Brookpard, then Fargo, ND. I don't trust the NFL or Haslam, and I think both have no love for Cleveland. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 On 5/15/2024 at 11:00 AM, Orion said: How many times do ya wanna lose your football team? Only, it isn't "our" football team. I know, Haslam is the majority owner. I can't walk in and make decisions... Because I don't own it. Trust me, otherwise this roster would have been FAR more competitive starting 14 years ago and you'd likely have more playoff wins with the alternative personnel I've scouted and mocked in that time frame. We support this team, we cheer for this team, in football, you feel there is a part of yourself on the field with the players. That connection and pride is honestly the entire reason behind the whole thing. When you remove that emotional appeal, you see it for the business it truly is and the disconnect between the fans and ownership. They count dollars, we count wins and moments. Circles back around to my greater point, it isn't our team. And I can't support giving public money to any enterprise that the public has no ownership stake in. You can claim "well, it'll make NEO money and it'll create jobs". Those jobs will be created whether it's publicly funded or not, and that money will be generated in the surrounding area all the same. Haslam is a billionaire, if not, he can finance like the rest of us and pay back with (actual) interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 1 hour ago, tiamat63 said: Only, it isn't "our" football team. OK, I've confused you. So substitute the phrase ' a football team ' for ' our football team '. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan1 Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 On 5/15/2024 at 11:00 AM, Orion said: Lipstick on a pig. We may not like the crooked Haslems...but they're all we've got. Do yas like the sound of 'Cleveland Browns'? Or would you prefer the 'East BumFuck Browns' playing in who knows what part of the country. How many times do ya wanna lose your football team? As someone who actually lives here in Cuyahoga County, I'm all for it. I pay the taxes, so go for it. The stadium sits empty most of the year. A dome next to the Airport would generate a lot more concerts and other venues besides football. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 8 hours ago, tiamat63 said: Only, it isn't "our" football team. I know, Haslam is the majority owner. I can't walk in and make decisions... Because I don't own it. Trust me, otherwise this roster would have been FAR more competitive starting 14 years ago and you'd likely have more playoff wins with the alternative personnel I've scouted and mocked in that time frame. We support this team, we cheer for this team, in football, you feel there is a part of yourself on the field with the players. That connection and pride is honestly the entire reason behind the whole thing. When you remove that emotional appeal, you see it for the business it truly is and the disconnect between the fans and ownership. They count dollars, we count wins and moments. Circles back around to my greater point, it isn't our team. And I can't support giving public money to any enterprise that the public has no ownership stake in. You can claim "well, it'll make NEO money and it'll create jobs". Those jobs will be created whether it's publicly funded or not, and that money will be generated in the surrounding area all the same. Haslam is a billionaire, if not, he can finance like the rest of us and pay back with (actual) interest. He has the money to build it alone. No doubt he wouldn't deplete funds to that amount, he probably will take a loan. If I was him I would move out of Cleveland simply because they are a bunch of idiots who bungled the last time an owner wanted something. No more stadium rentals, sales tax, player tax, packed restaurants and hotels on game weekends, or parking lot income from city owned lots. OH, lost income taxes from the people who worked to help put on the event. Lot's of people will lose income. But yeh, people out in Brookpark will prosper. Move it. Screw the city. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 23 minutes ago, ballpeen said: He has the money to build it alone. No doubt he wouldn't deplete funds to that amount, he probably will take a loan. If I was him I would move out of Cleveland simply because they are a bunch of idiots who bungled the last time an owner wanted something. No more stadium rentals, sales tax, player tax, packed restaurants and hotels on game weekends, or parking lot income from city owned lots. OH, lost income taxes from the people who worked to help put on the event. Lot's of people will lose income. But yeh, people out in Brookpark will prosper. Move it. Screw the city. For someone who allegedly doesn't care about this because you are giving up your season tickets any day now, you sure seem like someone who cares about this at all. In fact, it almost seems personal to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Always Ghoolie Posted May 18 Author Report Share Posted May 18 12 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said: As someone who actually lives here in Cuyahoga County, I'm all for it. I pay the taxes, so go for it. The stadium sits empty most of the year. A dome next to the Airport would generate a lot more concerts and other venues besides football. Domes don't generate shit. 5 out of ten concerts break even, 3 lose money, and 2 are profitable. Other than a concert, wtf pray tell kind of wintery events are going to attract crowds large enough to open and staff the stadium, heat/cool it, fire up the concessions, bring security and turn on the lights? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 10 hours ago, Dutch Oven said: For someone who allegedly doesn't care about this because you are giving up your season tickets any day now, you sure seem like someone who cares about this at all. In fact, it almost seems personal to you. It is. I love Cleveland, but as I said, I consider the entire area Cleveland. I don't want to see the doofus Cleveland city council screw this up like they have screwed up nearly everything else. I want to see the area move ahead, not get stuck in the mud. Any type of outdoor facility is saying stuck in the mud. It won't generate any more income flowing in that what is already flowing in. If that is the plan, just keep the stadium as is and save the $billion or so. My comment about not caring is in reference to me not going to as many games by the time this thing is resolved and finished. By the time this thing is finished, I might not even be alive. You get to an age where you realize that Father Time isn't all that far behind you. Whatever happens isn't going to impact my gameday experience inside the window I project being a season ticket holder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 17 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said: As someone who actually lives here in Cuyahoga County, I'm all for it. I pay the taxes, so go for it. The stadium sits empty most of the year. A dome next to the Airport would generate a lot more concerts and other venues besides football. From what I have read, there wouldn't be much in the way of tax increase, if any. It would simply be an extension of taxes already collected. Sin tax, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 5 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said: Domes don't generate shit. 5 out of ten concerts break even, 3 lose money, and 2 are profitable. Other than a concert, wtf pray tell kind of wintery events are going to attract crowds large enough to open and staff the stadium, heat/cool it, fire up the concessions, bring security and turn on the lights? It isn't just winter. Many events want to eliminate the weather factor, no matter the season. You are a sharp guy. I am sure you could come up with many things other than concerts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 19 hours ago, Orion said: OK, I've confused you. No, you haven't. I removed the emotional verbiage. 19 hours ago, Orion said: So substitute the phrase ' a football team ' for ' our football team '. 'the' football team, would be better. Either way, my point stands. Pandering to the fans "you'll lose your football team waaaaah" is the emotional blackmail for Haslam to get his financial backing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 18 Report Share Posted May 18 2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Either way, my point stands. Pandering to the fans "you'll lose your football team waaaaah" is the emotional blackmail for Haslam to get his financial backing. It's just so unfortunate that life is so rough these days for the ultra-rich, tia... So. Incredibly. Rough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 On 5/18/2024 at 8:22 AM, Dutch Oven said: It's just so unfortunate that life is so rough these days for the ultra-rich, tia... So. Incredibly. Rough. Oh, I don't think it's so rough. It's not like any are on trial for fraud or anything.🤑💃 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said: Oh, I don't think it's so rough. It's not like any are on trial for fraud or anything.🤑💃 If I could, I would have liked your comment 91 times, TexAg... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Always Ghoolie Posted May 21 Author Report Share Posted May 21 My partners and I got to take a look at the proposed financing of the new athletic stadium in Vegas. This pile of shit is going to incur 1.4 billion dollars of new debt over the next 10 years. And then in 20 years or so the Athletics will want a new stadium in this big pile of shit will be there doing nothing, or being torn down by yet more taxpayer dollars. It's no secret that I don't like Jimmy Haslam or his pandering wife. Even if I did like the guy I think the entire idea of building a new stadium is highway robbery to the fans and taxpayers. Other than lining the pockets of a lot of politicians and construction companies and God knows what else can someone explain to me how exactly building a new stadium is going to benefit the fans or the citizens of Cleveland? It seems a little fuck tardish to expect people in Cleveland to pay for a new stadium that's going to go to Brook Park. Instead of that why can't Brook Park pay for the new stadium? Why can't the fans who won a dome and all the sissy shit that goes along with that voluntarily pay for the new stadium? And I will again ask what's wrong with the existing Stadium? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Always Ghoolie Posted May 21 Author Report Share Posted May 21 Hoorta.....$2 billion? Looknat the attached financial spread for the tiny 30,000 seat A's domed stadium. The service on debt is $1.4 billion over 10 years. There is no no fucking way Cleveland is getting a new 70k seat retractable dome, starting with 2027 dollars? $3 billion easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Always Ghoolie Posted May 21 Author Report Share Posted May 21 The Hexatron? I had no knowledge.of such a thing. Thoughts? https://fox8.com/news/a-covered-stadium-option-for-the-browns-on-the-lakefront-what-we-know/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 28 minutes ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said: The Hexatron? I had no knowledge.of such a thing. Thoughts? https://fox8.com/news/a-covered-stadium-option-for-the-browns-on-the-lakefront-what-we-know/ All our crap aside - that was very interesting. I live in the Tampa area were their MLB team that frequents post seasons - plays indoors in a more comfortable climate than Florida's summer heat. Unfortunately, they have trouble with attendance in spite of it all. 1 huge factor is bottle necked traffic congestion from Tampa to St Pete especially during the work week. Right now, St Pete is booming and the city is building every where it can. This may be good in the longer term if the ownership can stay patient with underwhelming crowds while the team is successful. With the Browns, in the division they play in - how many years have they been good enough in late November, December and January to draw consistent crowd sizes to make all this work out? A lot of us older guys wouldn't hesitate to see this team in any weather when we were younger; especially since the team was good enough to excite us to do so. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 If they can build on the current site...good deal. Whatever they do, it has to have a roof. Maybe I missed it, but it won't help the fans or city if the team has to play games away from Cleveland during construction.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 2 minutes ago, Flugel said: All our crap aside - that was very interesting. I live in the Tampa area were their MLB team that frequents post seasons - plays indoors in a more comfortable climate than Florida's summer heat. Unfortunately, they have trouble with attendance in spite of it all. 1 huge factor is bottle necked traffic congestion from Tampa to St Pete especially during the work week. Right now, St Pete is booming and the city is building every where it can. This may be good in the longer term if the ownership can stay patient with underwhelming crowds while the team is successful. With the Browns, in the division they play in - how many years have they been good enough in late November, December and January to draw consistent crowd sizes to make all this work out? A lot of us older guys wouldn't hesitate to see this team in any weather when we were younger; especially since the team was good enough to excite us to do so. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all this. One thing you didn't mention is that St. Pete has one of the oldest populations in the country. They will go to games during the day when public transportation is running and they don't have to drive at night. The Rays played a large number of day games some years back but MLB put a stop to so many day games even though day games outdrew night games by a pretty large margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted May 21 Report Share Posted May 21 9 minutes ago, ballpeen said: One thing you didn't mention is that St. Pete has one of the oldest populations in the country. They will go to games during the day when public transportation is running and they don't have to drive at night. The Rays played a large number of day games some years back but MLB put a stop to so many day games even though day games outdrew night games by a pretty large margin. Thanks - worthy of note. That said, it's been turning over like crazy since we returned here in 2017. When we were here from 1996-2000, that just looked like a tired old city with little happening. Now they're building up that downtown everywhere. They're building sky rise condos and it's been quite an overhaul. We couldn't believe it. They've added countless restaurants, shops and hotels near the indoor baseball facility. In pertinence to Cleveland, location, reasonably priced parking and how well it accommodates traffic need to be looked into. I'm guessing they'll do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 22 Report Share Posted May 22 23 hours ago, Flugel said: Thanks - worthy of note. That said, it's been turning over like crazy since we returned here in 2017. When we were here from 1996-2000, that just looked like a tired old city with little happening. Now they're building up that downtown everywhere. They're building sky rise condos and it's been quite an overhaul. We couldn't believe it. They've added countless restaurants, shops and hotels near the indoor baseball facility. In pertinence to Cleveland, location, reasonably priced parking and how well it accommodates traffic need to be looked into. I'm guessing they'll do that. I know. My folks retired in Pinellas County. Up near Seminole/Indian Rocks. Buried in Largo. I have been going to the area since the 70's. It's amazing at the tremendous amount of growth. My brother still lives in Seminole. I go to visit at least once a year. Depending on the time of the year I usually sync it up to where either the Rays, Lightening, or Bucs are in town to attend a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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