EdwardG Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year? IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure. I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel88 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 4 years with consistent improvement, but 2-3 without. I know by the end of the season we will see tremendous improvement mangini knows this game give him time. I know it looks bad but its always darkest just before dawn and I gotta feeling daybreak will be here soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegasdogg Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 More than 2009. I give them 2009 and 2010. Be competetive and play for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 what if this team goes 2-14 this year then Mangi is probably 1 and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkandstoopid Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 3 seasons if they don't improve and win at least 7 by the end of the third. Gradual improvement will keep their jobs for a while. As soon as they get one good year and backslide, Lerner and the fans will be all over their asses and it'll be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestinPeace Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 3-5 years to make this consistant playoff contender. 4-12,7-9,11-5,8-8,14-2 is my optimistic outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Italian DawgPound Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Gradual improvement can be deadly in our situation. Improve within next year or go home, I'd say. Two years is the maximum this fan base can allow this management to bring back results. And results in our situation is showing you can beat Pit and Bal on a regular basis and show you can be a consistent playoff contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestinPeace Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Gradual improvement can be deadly in our situation. Improve within next year or go home, I'd say. Two years is the maximum this fan base can allow this management to bring back results. And results in our situation is showing you can beat Pit and Bal on a regular basis and show you can be a consistent playoff contender. The problem with that is the terrible talent level on this team. While you may get a nice fluke year, sometimes it takes longer to win consistantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopaji Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I give him 3 years. If he has a winning record by year 3, he gets an extention. I just pray the Lerners leave the football decisions up to the football guys. They have to let him build the team up. The good thing is, even if he is out in 3, he shuold have this roster completely flipped and in the right direction. I have faith in this guy. Just as important as scouting the Browns is taking a look at the Jets. And Sexxy Rexxy is having a blast twith what Mangini built up in NY. It's like Tomlin after Cowher. Good coach but an even better roster. MAngini knows what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Anything less than 3 isn't a fair look. Now, in that 3rd year, if we are 1-10, something may be done at that point, though I have never really seen the point of canning a coach mid season...might as well just wait for the season to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncoinskinland Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I would say 3 years minimum with generous leeway for an extension if there are signs of overall improvement. We are going through the same thing in Denver, and despite the fact that I dislike many of the moves McDaniels has made, the last thing we need is a coaching carousel. It's bad enough we lost stability at the QB position. One year turnarounds are rare, the recent past is the exception to the rule not the standard. Rather than flail for years looking for the quick fix, I would rather see them go long term and really solve the problem instead of hoping for a lucky break. Criticise the coach, rail at the top of your lungs that his latest move is the most boneheaded in a substantial history of observable Retardation, but keep in mind the next guy could be just as bad, worse, or just might not have the time to prove he is better if you keep switching coaches every two years... On a side note I haven't seen anywhere else to post it, that was a good game on Sunday. You guys have a lot of work to do, but Braylon at least looked to be giving good effort, had some nice catches, and your D got a few stops against what was a very good offense last year. I think the Cincy game was an abnormality, and think our offense will prove to be much better in some of the upcoming games. You guys will get there, keep the faith. Good luck against the Ravens next week, I will be watching and pulling for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 then Mangi is probably 1 and done. Any half way decent coach "should" be able to get at least 2 wins. 2-14 indicates more than just lack of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemosley01 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Anything less than 3 isn't a fair look. Now, in that 3rd year, if we are 1-10, something may be done at that point, though I have never really seen the point of canning a coach mid season...might as well just wait for the season to end. 'Peen - you were one of the guys saying 'win now' - what happened, or were you being sarcastic. Just curious. Part of me says 'win now' - we have seen other teams recently win and continue to win, but those teams had talent and were just poorly coached. In the Browns case, we have little talent AND we were poorly coached. I think at the end of year 2 we'll know if this is going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Any half way decent coach "should" be able to get at least 2 wins. 2-14 indicates more than just lack of talent. The more i think about it, give them the same leash Quinn gets. Not realistic i know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownIndian Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I would consider the schedule before thinking about the leash. Last year we had a very tough schedule and we were having injury problems too. The final few games were played without QB's. This year we have not so many injury problems or a touch schedule but sadly not enough talent in the roster to make the impact. But that is no reason for the offense to be jack shit. I will give till the end of this year to see if the offense improves. If the offense is still caught in the same level then I will ask Mangini to change the OC or pack up bags. Mangini and Kokins though will be given 2 years to prove themselves. Draft choices, free agency and competitiveness are what they will be judged by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 To answer to the OP sepcifically. If it's 2-14 and 4-12 in consecutive years, there have better been some good injury excuses or something in that second year. While I don't believe some that think you can turn a team into a winner in one year, (If I hear the Atlanta or Baltimore or Miami examples one more time I think I'll choke someone. Look at those teams the year BEFORE they were bad). I do believe you need to show more signs of improvement than 4-12 in your second year. other than that I agree with others. He gets 3 years as long as he showing some improvement each year. Thats a good common sense look at it JADBF, but if we regress to 2-14 with a less difficult schedule...... I'm still very optimistic that we can get 6-8 wins this year, the Denver gm was one of our penciled in wins though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Turns out this KyleProBowler is a jackass not just on this board ""True to form, the whine from that bastion of baseball knowledge KlyeProBoller contiunes. Do you read anything other than your ubiquitous whining negative lame postings? If you did do some homework you find just a little bit of the money spent, even though you say the O's spent less for "all out prospects than some teams did on two"...if you can take a minute away from thinking of your next negative whine, read and LEARN something before speaking about something you haven't got a clue about. Just a few of the picks and the rounds they were chosen. "" Cutting school is not cool, now get to class kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think you just look around the league at how the other franchises handle it. Most coaches seem to get about 2 or 3 seasons to show that everything is going the right direction. Lerner has his unorthodox moments but he seems middle of the road regarding how much grace his coaches get. How long do you think Mangini and Kokonis have to make progress? For example, what if this team goes 2-14 this year and 4-12 next year? IMO, they may have only 2yrs max to show progress, esp. if none of the higher draft picks appear to be breaking out. There was significant excitement when Savage was brought in (finally, a guy who can evaluate talent!), and there was still strong support for him a year later when he was almost fired (which, in retrospect, would've been better for the franchise). However, the support isn't deep for the new regime due to the coach being hired before the GM, and general dislike of Mangini. This is going to create pressure on Lerner to make a move sooner rather than later if things don't improve. These guys have to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure. I know it's early and I hope it doesn't come down to this, but for some reason it's rattling around my head as a distinct possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 'Peen - you were one of the guys saying 'win now' - what happened, or were you being sarcastic. Just curious. Part of me says 'win now' - we have seen other teams recently win and continue to win, but those teams had talent and were just poorly coached. In the Browns case, we have little talent AND we were poorly coached. I think at the end of year 2 we'll know if this is going anywhere. No...I want to win now...always have. I can go with what you say by the end of year two.....sure...we win 2 this year and 2 the next. no need to go much further, but one has to be realistic, and 3..or at least a portion of that 3rd year is pretty standard as it really takes a 3 year cycle of drafts and FA periods for a coach to get the players he wants. It just can't be done any faster. So, now that we are on this path, there is no going back so we have to let it play out....like it or not. The one and done attitude I have really rests more on individual players performance. Players these days receive enough top coaching by the time they are a pro to be able to tell if you have a player or just a guy. Something as large as a coach, his philosophy, system, and ability to bring in talent takes a little longer than a year or two.....but ok...to compromise, as I said, if at the end of next season we still look like crap and don't look 66% of the way there, I won't cry if we go another direction, but that does mean you start at zero again. No new coach continues to build on what the last coach did unless he is talking over a good team much like what happened to Switzer in Dallas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I really agree with you...it's going to have to take something really bad to be in that 3rd year as I originally posted...it is a process that just has to happen and it can't be rushed no matter how much you might want that to happen. Oh...I see you have 4 posts...welcome to the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 I agree about continuous improvement, & 3 years thing, but will add that we MUST be able to gain a homefield edge at CBS. Also, we MUST be able to go at least 3-3 in our division...if you can't beat Pitt, Balt, & Cincy, then how can we expect to win it? I realize that we are well behind our division rivals at this time, but that gap has got to close fast. It gets real old for me watching my favorite team get beat down by rivals. Mangini's drafts will obviously be the key. So far, it's shaky, but I'll give him some rope to play with there because it's his first draft here. We need our draft picks to help out, not be inactive or backups. ps- I also agree with the post about the Browns always finding a way to win a game they aren't supposed to...I'm thinking it's the Ravens game at home after the BYE week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Drafts are always key for a coach/GM..the first year doesn't really count with those guys, but by the time we enter the grading period for Mangini, 2-3 of the guys we drafted this year will need to be at least solid pro players contributing to help him keep his job. Mangini knows this, and why the picks may seem a bit conservative, but in the end, i think he will have those 2-3 players pulling their weight and helping us win. That is why i don't think there was much of a QB competition. Quinn was going to start all along as Mangini needed to see what BQ could do in games. Next year has a few good qb prospects. I think we needed to eliminate the doubt on Quinn so we can enter next draft with a clear vision on where we need to go with those picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardG Posted September 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 One of the hard things is evaluating talent when you don't have a good organization. We've all seen "problem" players go to a quality franchise and flourish. I wonder if Ngata, who was known as a guy who took plays off, would have been a good pick for the Browns, or would he be an underachiever (occasional lack of motor was a criticism of him if I recall). With the Ravens, he is pushed by superior defensive players and now is among them. I'm more concerned about whether we're bringing in talent or wasting draft picks, and just as important, are we building that elusive something called a strong organization that can rival the Ravens and Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownIndian Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Is the mangini hate more cos we did not take time to evaluate all the other available coaches (Mike shanahan, John Gruden, Steve Spags etc etc) or cos of the two losses ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardG Posted September 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Is the mangini hate more cos we did not take time to evaluate all the other available coaches (Mike shanahan, John Gruden, Steve Spags etc etc) or cos of the two losses ? Yes, I think it's a combination of the following: a- Lerner picking a coach before a GM, without seemingly giving others much of a chance b- Belief that we are getting the Jets reject c- he wasn't popular with at least some of the Jets players and the media, at least after the Jets finished poorly last year d- Some people think he's a weasel, and this has been resurrected again by the whole flap over the water I'm not saying I believe all these, it's just what I've heard. I'm very unconvinced about this group myself, but then again I thought Savage was finally going to turn it around... The thing that honestly concerns me most is the last one. I don't want an idiot in there, although it's interesting, because I think Mangini is very pleasant being interviewed. He isn't hostile like Crennel. He doesn't "seem* like a weasel, but then you hear various things and it's hard to tell if this is a guy we can get behind or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sez.EJ Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownIndian Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years.... There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Dick Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 screw the record, just beat the damn steelers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sez.EJ Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 There were more Jets fan happy that he got fired. As much as i try to stay positive about the Mangini hire, i refuse to drink the kool-aid. That's only because they were 8-3 before Favre imploded with the torn bicep.... and he is so arrogant the thought he could play effectively through that.. I doubt he told mangini the extent of that injury. Favres streak of starts would have ended...but the Jets would have been in the Playoffs and the Jets fans would be happy, Mangini would still be there. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razor1414 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 If Lerner has a clue... he only needs to look at the NEW YORK JETS.. Mangini was building that team and they look pretty good. He should not have been fired there.. but I think it's clear he has a pretty good idea of how to build a football team. His team was 8-3 last year until favre had the biceps tear and the whole team melted down. The biggest problem the browns have is the carousel of coaches coming in and out.. We need to leave mangini in here for about 10 years.... I agree the browns have to give Mangini his due time here to try and build this team. But if the browns do not have at least a .500 record in year 3 and 4 under mangini he has to go. I cant see sticking with someone 10 years whos not getting the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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