Gunz41

Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that. Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them. Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker.

Hopefully it happens, but you think you might be getting ahead of yourself? Forget about arguing playoffs or even Super Bowl, as that has been talked about enough (and I can even partially see why), and you did qualify that. But what exactly has anyone seen to call tremendous coaching?

Someone said he not to be named resurfaced under another name. Just curious what the new name was

I miss a little time and the guy I love to tell how wrong he is came back? Boo, what name?

I don't mind, and I don't mean this in a mean way, but go back a few posts from me, I mentioned a couple already. If you can't find them, or don't understand, or need more proof then I can give it to you

I agree that at this moment they are being overvalued and undervalued. And I realize that a lot of your arguments are made to look worse because of the back and forth you have going. But that old saying (and no I'm not calling either fools), but from a far fool's arguing. I really don't care how the Steelers do. I am the different type of guy who doesn't hate them. From some of the issues they have had, I certainly hope well for both Conner and Shazier. But even you have to admit some of your answers come off as contradictory. It would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't really show favoritism when evaluating things. So when I went position by position and it was about even, that's about what it is.

Mr. Pittsburgh, how in the world can you actually bring up having a higher Draft grade to boost your argument? I can't remember which year it was, maybe both, but when JM and Gilbert were picked and/or the year Cleveland went 0-16, they were given an A for the draft. How exactly did those turn out? Look, I know you are a fan of your team, as the ones really coming at you are for Cleveland. And yes, some people on here seem to be crowning them without evidence, but that certainly isn't me. I am about as level headed as you will find. I say that to say that some of your points make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE, and some are contradicting yourself. Let's go through a couple and maybe since it is someone you aren't actively arguing/fueding with you can see it. I don't even agree with everything that is being said about your team btw. Gilbert: you didn't lose him, you let him leave. He is gone, not on the team. Whether he was good or not, you did lose him. I didn't see where anybody said you were spurned by him. OBJ/AB: You really need to make up your mind here, not choose a side based on your argument. In their careers, yes AB has been better than OBJ. But when you point that out you can't possibly think people will side with you are better without him. Other WR: You have talked a lot recently about Landry not being all that good. Yet you are bringing up Johnson. And even worse with this argument is saying the Browns haven't proven anything with OBJ, yet you signed Moncrief. Does that REALLY make sense to you. You also seem to not want to reply to the fact that things will be different now with JuJu being #1 without the benefit of AB. Go ahead, read it again, I didn't say they couldn't be just as good or better, but it certainly isn't a simple "he did this last year as a 2, he will be even better next year as a 1." The best example I can give for that is a 2nd best player in NBA. When he becomes the best player things aren't always trending up for him. Playoffs: Whether anyone here on either side wants to admit it or not, the team that won the division last year was Baltimore. Neither the Browns nor Steelers were in the playoffs last year. So both have to improve this year to get there. Again, I have a TON of experience in this great game, and if you think you have the edge in almost every category you are mistaken. But it really is both sides of an argument valuing their guys over the other. If it wasn't then you would see how you are saying things to justify your own guys while saying the same thing to devalue the Browns guys. Perfect example to this: the devaluing of Greedy as the 2nd CB, but I am sure you are saying you have the better MLB right now. Bush AND Greedy have done the exact same thing, NOTHING. And questioning how some players will fit or work with CLE, but just assuming they will with PITTSBURGH

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of anything, certainly how they feel about a player. With that being said, the ones saying how bad of a pick it was dont jive with also saying In Dorsey we/I trust. If the reaction was to do that, then no it wasn't In Dorsey you trust, it was that you didn't have a reason to complain before. It was that you sided with the decision making prior. That isn't trust. I wont go through all the moves, just a couple. This is how it appears when that happens. Ward- I liked Chubb more, but I can see why he made the decision. Works out- he is great N. Chubb- hes great, got the 2nd best back in Draft. Genius move OBJ- we got the best receiver in NFL. Then without a 1st round pick, the Dorsey is such a genius he can find a way to move to 1st to get "x player" without giving up 1st next year. Greedy- Dorsey knew exactly when to move up to get the best CB in Draft. He is the man. Takitaki- this is a terrible pick, a huge overreach (because nobody in the media/pre draft THOUGHT he would go that high). Mack- he was the 2nd or 3rd best LB in the draft. This was INCREDIBLE value. An absolute steal. He should be starting day 1 So when its like that, you trust, but a pick you don't then you don't trust. Those just don't work together. If I trust someone, I trust them at any time. What I see in this scenario is that most people undervalued Sione and overvalued Mack. That doesn't mean that Mack won't be better, its just the assumption of grade. As the person that people wants to trust had the choice of each and chose 1 before the other. Maybe, just maybe, JD wanted both and actually KNEW how both were graded. Everyone seems to dismiss the fact that its not like it was an either/or, and that Mack "the unbelievable steal" went a couple picks later or something. There was 9 LBs selected between the 2. Mack wasn't the next ILB, 3 taken before him. Again, I have zero issue with people having an opinion (whether right or wrong, or proven correct or incorrect) about a player. But if it's the same people saying they trust Dorsey, then its not right to complain at the 1st thing he does that they don't agree with. Trust isn't, I trust them unless they do something I disagree with

Well what is good for the gander... I have NO issue with you loving your team. But how in the world can you say (without trying to troll/just talk crap) that Landry isnt very good, but tout about Washington and Moncrief? I'll even break it down position wise. This is the upcoming season, as I think a couple could change in near future. QB- P RB- C WR- C, P, C TE- Toss Up LT- P LG- C C- P RG- P RT- Toss Up DE- C, P, C DT- Toss Up OLB- P, C ILB- P, C CB- C, P, C, P S- P, C K- Toss Up (I remember all the complaints about yours last year) P- C You could probably argue 1 or 2 (I'm sure you would argue a lot more), but I am a realist and know A LOT about the game. P- 11 C- 12

Still with all these Duke hefty prices? If Dorsey really wanted to trade him, last weekend was the right time. Now we have Duke and a lower pick for McCoy and a higher pick. That makes zero sense, but now looking back I see who posted it (and some of the warped values previously). As for the salary, it does matter when the Browns are already over, which hurts the left over money to sign the players in the next couple years. I certainly think that Suh is more than a rotational piece now. He actually had s pretty good year last year. He just wasn't the best DT on their team. He isn't signed because he wants paid. But to say it proves he is just a piece because he hasn't signed, there are players over the years who have signed later because they were holding out to get the most money, really good players. Solomon Thomas was a top 3 pick, I seriously doubt that 49ers would give him up for a 5th rounder. He would at the very least be in the rotation like is being talked about here. I could see him being traded, but I would be surprised if it's as low as a 5th

I don't want any part of this back and forth between dueling fans, but I will clarify one thing for you Vagitron. Juju is very good. But his production was helped by Antonio Brown. Its easier for a 2 to get single coverage. That doesn't mean Juju cant be the best receiver in the league, but it's not as simple as saying, he put up X numbers last year, he will be even better with AB gone. I know you love your team, as does other fans from other teams, but need to look at it rationally if you actually want to be honest. You notice where I ranked each group? I didn't say the Browns were better everywhere, I even gave Pitt the edge at QB at the moment.

I would still have to say their OL is to be honest. They may not improve as much as they would with Munchak, but they still had him before. And we don't know what they will gain from the new coach. There was a time when everyone here thought Hue was a great hire. For my money, Pitt had the best OL last season. I think with Frederick coming back and everyone being healthy that Dallas should have the best, but Pitt will still have a great line, and the Browns still have big question marks there

I didn't go through all the posts, but I am surprised nobody mentioned to the Steeler fan boy that a big reason Greedy didn't tackle was because he had a shoulder injury. So Vagitron, let's look through the positions and compare. And that inst to say Pitt cant or wont win the North, they certainly could, the Browns are still young and building. QB- I'll give Pitt an edge at the moment, but not for the future RB- Browns with the edge WR- Browns certainly with the edge OL- Steelers certainly DL- Browns slightly LB- Steelers at the moment DB- Browns ST- I'll give Pitt a slight edge I can see in 2 years Steelers having an edge in 1 category (OL) and possibly 2. No reason to come up with stuff to talk negatively about something non football related. I can certainly remember you defending Antonio for everything until he was gone

That list has at least one error, the Browns last pick is on there

I don't think either of those are that far off, I just don't think that would be the best they could do. IF they did get tired of Fournette, I think that if they had interest in Duke I think it would be in a backup role.

I very strongly disagree. Remember, with more evidence from a AFC championship game, they were one of the teams talked about like Browns are this season. And they obviously didn't sign Foles to that big contract with expectations of rebuilding. Here is what I see, asking if it were the other way around if you/Browns would do it. Browns get Ramsey (let's assume Browns make playoffs and lose in Wild Card round, thus highest possible pick for Jax) Jax: Duke Johnson, Carrie, 21st pick in 2020 draft for Jalen Ramsey, 24 years old and 2x pro bowler with all 3 years of 16 starts Or if its flipped, assume Jax barely finished like Browns last year. Cleveland gets Thomas Rawls or Yeldon, Cody Brown, and 17th pick in 2020 draft for Denzel Ward, 22 years old (in 2 weeks) 1x pro bowler with 12 starts and concerns expressed about concussions None of that is to say that Ward won't continue on a great path and be just as good or better than Ramsey. But to think it's a good possibility of a team getting rid of their best player, who is still very young for backups and what will probably be a lower 1st seems to me like having homer colored glasses on

I'm not questioning that part, but if you are the Jags do you accept that? Or look at it another way, would you trade Ward for Rawls, a DB not named Ramsey or Bouye and what will more than likely be a late 1st round pick?

I think you might be overvaluing Duke. If its just your opinion that Duke has more talent than the others, that is different. But Jags have 2 other backs who have shown to play at a higher level than Duke, Yeldon and Rawls. If I were the Jags, with the presented trade offer of Duke, 2020 1st rounder and one of the DBs on the team, it would only make sense if that DB was Ward. If not, I get a 3rd string back, a low 1st round pick (who couldn't be relied upon to be as good as Jalen) and make my team worse on what we hang our hat on, defense.

Well I imagine that when the players do that the teams would as well. Everyone in the NFL SHOULD have it before fans, not to think as fans that they should have it when NFL personnel does

Is this s serious question? They certainly need to know before fans, seeing as though they are the ones playing in the games

I get that part, I'm not saying being against someone opinion is wrong, its usually the same ones on the opposite side, and the key is actually arguing about it. But even worse, is when there is the same subject, and someone takes the opposite side. That is what I am speaking of

It just doesn't seem genuine to me when things like that occur. And the thing about it isnt, "I did more research and I change my opinion." Its a complete 180, and A LOT of the time it just seems as if it's just opposite of the overwhelming feeling, i.e. causing an argument. Sure we are all prone to change our mind, especially with evidence, but most don't that quickly, and that often. I have seen a couple examples recently. Perriman and hes a good resign and then, he will probably fail and be out of league. Example I can use, and you are the perfect person for it. If you were to say "I love Peppers, hes going to be great. Once traded, "he now sucks."

I won't quote anyone, but it seems that some just want to be contrary to anything. Just reading through some of the recent threads, BEFORE OBJ was traded, he was a diva. Now that he was traded, never been a diva. His past, good and bad didn't change. His future can.

Just because I still fail to see the obsession with unproven Draft picks when compared to proven players, I am listing the 3 picks at #17, #18, #19 and top WR to show. 2018- Derwin James, Jaire Alexander, Leighton Vander Esch. DJ Moore 2017- Jonathan Allen, Adore Jackson, OJ Howard. Zay Jones 2016- Keanu Neal, Ryan Kelly, Shaq Lawson. Will Fuller 2015- Arik Armstead, Marcus Peters, Cam Erving. Nelson Agholor 2014- CJ Mosley, Calvin Pryor, Ja'wuan James. Brandin Cooks 2013- Jarvis Jones, Eric Reid, Justin Pugh. DeAndre Hopkins 2012- Dre Kirkpatrick, Melvin Ingram, Shea Mcclellin. Kendall Wright The point I am making isnt that you cant get great players in the draft, it's that even the best can miss. Everyone loves Dorsey, with good reason, but there has been questions about Corbett since the Zeitler trade. We can always look back and say, "this guy should have been the pick, etc." But they are always picking one they think can help. There were some who love Baker Mayfield now who wanted Darnold, Allen, or Rosen. Here is a couple examples. 2013- Tavon Austin over Hopkins 2014- 12 teams passed on Aaron Donald 2016- Coleman, Docston, Treadwell over Michael Thomas Just a few examples. While we can all think we have a great pick, some just don't work out. Take Gilbert as an example, while he was a TERRIBLE pick, a lot of teams had him high.

Haha. You got that one wrong too. He was always wrong, just not in his head lol