Barry

9 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I didn't do that, but I did do  somewhat of a grading of all teams drafts from 2015-2017  per the pfr career production average.  

Would you mind telling me where you posted that? I read it but forgot which topic it was posted under and would like to look at it again. Thanks

Has anyone ever gone back and looked at PFF's final draft ratings from 2-3 years ago to see ho they compare? I don't have a subscription so I can't but it would be interesting to review it.

23 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I assume you do not count  Chris Hubbard there.  Or do you?    (per Ourlads...he is currently listed as our starting LT)

No. His 'talent' is that he plays multiple positions...all badly.

11 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Well when journos start starting...

 

If healthy, then Trent solves our LT problem and with #10 freed to trade, we can more than recoup the 3's we'd spend on him so....

... works for me.

What he said...with the one caveat that we get a serviceable LT as a back-up in case Williams gets injured.

There was an image of the positional hierarchy which the Browns had on their whiteboard floating around a year or so ago, and which I have seen recently. It tell s you the order of importance which the Browns see it. Perhaps someone on here has the image.

Another reason it doesn't make sense to me. We aren't even close to having a #1 receiver or even someone good to pair with Landry.That means we will get that #1-type receiver in the draft, so why on earth would we telegraph a possible target at #10 so that a team that wasn't worried about us taking a receiver can now jump ahead of us and take one? 

If we were going to do this trade, we would wait until the draft and after the 9th pick so we know who we can get. Then trade OBJ and pick our WR at #10.

First time I did it they had Lamb and Ruggs going the first 9. Has anyone seen a mock that has 2 WR going that early?

Great question. I don't pretend to know how each player grades out, yet alone to project that into the pro game, so I will base my decision on position.

I have to go with Brown. A great DL will stop the run, which we need to do badly (and we were really bad at it last year) and it will help a lot with the Dbs. 

You don't need a blue chip OT. You need a good OL working well together. Grab one in the 2nd round. 

Okudah would be my 2nd choice, but with a DL that has Brown et al, you don't need all stud Dbs, imo. 

The front office has me convinced that linebackers are a commodity. The 10th pick is not a commodity pick. 

No to a trade down.

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I like the way you think... and not just because I agree with you...

Well mostly for that reason actually...

 

 

Too bad these posts are dated. Otherwise I could accuse you of stealing my ideas 😂

So if we are right we get to puff our chests out for a week, right?

This is just shooting out my ass but who isn't with less than 2 weeks until the draft? The key is this: If at least 3 Qbs are taken the first 9 picks we will stay at 10, because we will be guaranteed at least 1 of our top 2 rated OT. This is based on the the following players going before us: Burrow, Young, Simmons, Okudah, Tua (or Herbert), Love, Brown, and Kinlaw. If there is a surprise and one of these non-Qbs slide to us then we will stay at 10 and take that player.

If, however, only 2 Qbs are taken ahead of us, then that means it's likely that we will have most likely a shot at only are 3rd rated OT and that the non-Qbs above also won't be available to us. Not only that but there will still be a highly rated Qb on the board that some team will want to trade with us in order to get him. The combination of our 3rd rated OT vs. moving down a few slots and picking up more picks will be worth it at that point. 

So how many Qb go 1-9 will decide.

Given Vernon's injury history I would think that these 'depth' guys are going to see more action than your typical role players. A question: If we still sign Clowney and release one of these guys recently signed, I know we are on the hook for the guaranteed salary, but does their pay count against the cap at all?

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Is/Was  Mel's Drive-In a real place?   (possibly under a different name?)

Mel's Drive-In is a chain in the Bay Area which began in 1947. (They were quite good at one time. Now I don't know). They have about 10 places still though I don't see any in Petaluma. When I was last in Petaluma a couple of years ago I recall a 50's style drive-in near the ice cream store mentioned above, but I don't know if that was the one they used in the movie.

On 4/6/2020 at 10:47 PM, D Bone said:

My daughter graduated from Sonoma State in 2017, and the night of her ceremony we ended up at super cool ice cream parlor in downtown Petaluma. I was already on cloud nine as she is the 1st in my family to graduate with a BS/BA - heck, 1st ever to just go to college, and on top of that the city shut down the blvd (where the movie was filmed) to have a classic/muscle car parade roar up and down the strip while we ate out ice cream. I had goosebumps on top of goosebumps.

I still smile when I think back on that entire day. 

Great ice cream store. Right off the square. Been there a few times. Mucho congrats on your daughter's accomplishments.

43 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I still feel that the Browns' backfield of Jimmy Brown & Bobby Mitchell was the best I've ever seen.

RIP Bobby!

Mike 

I totally agree.

Are there any other backfield pairs where both made the HOF?

Off the top of my head there was the contemporary duo of  Jim Taylor/Paul Hornung.

Oh, and there was this,  a QB plus THREE  RBs all in the same backfield that made the HOF:

The Million Dollar Backfield was a National Football League (NFL) offensive backfield of the San Francisco 49ers from 1954 to 1956. Featuringquarterback Y. A. Tittle, halfbacks Hugh McElhenny and John Henry Johnson, and fullback Joe Perry,

Any others?

It was only for 3 years but the LA Raiders had Marcus Allen and Bo Jackson in the same backfield (1987-90). Bo would have been in the HOF had he not gotten injured.

34 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well....the thing is, it is not so much the coaches that are doing the drafting.   Some do...you noted BB and Walsh.  And certainly I assume most coaches have input if not direct say into who is being drafted.....expecially in early rounds. 

It wouldn't be perfect but still interesting, though I would guess coaches had more say in the 60s-70s, before things got so segmented. Another factor would be if success is defined by a player making a Pro- Bowl, it was a lot easier to make it back then, when there were less teams. But hell, it's the off-season!

39 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Yes, those guys named after Jackson....who was PBs first round pick in 1962.   Scott etc.  (again....why draft a RB in round one when you have the Greatest ever playing for you?)  ...are post  Paul Brown.    I was just talking about guys they took at some point to replace/supplement JB)

One day I might look at several coaches and compare their drafting record. I mean it goes without saying how important drafting is but no one really compares coaches' drafting records that much. I did do that with Belichick and Walsh and a couple of other modern-day coaches (forget who) and Walsh beat all of them in terms of percentage of Pro Bowl players and HOFers he chose. Would like to see how he stands up against Noll.

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Certainly, when it comes to the Hall of Fame.....the Browns Dynasty years were more stacked with HOF offensive players than with defensive players:  OG, Motley,  Lavelli, Speedie,  Gatski, Groza, MacCormack.  Only Bill Willis and Len Ford made HOF from those defenses. 

Not sure what the motivations were for trading Atkins,  Jordan, Davis, LeBeau...  At least with  Mitchell we know that his motivation was to have  Ernie Davis.  

Let's face it....Ernie Davis was  5 years younger than JB.....and you know that today we say that the shelf life for an NFL RB is only about 5 years....so maybe PB was thinking that too when he went to get Davis.  Or maybe he was thinking that he wanted a true    dual backfield threat.    Like  Csonka/Kiick....or Mack/Byner  etc.    Maybe he didn't feel that Bobby Mitchell, who was a halfback a lot here, gave him that dual RB threat. 

But let's also face this:  Kelley was an 8th round draft pick that they struck gold with.    It is not like the Browns did not try to get other RBs in the draft to go along with...or replace JB.  Names like the following, all of who were 8th round or higher running backs taken between 1957 and 1966:

Ray Reese

Kirk Wilson

Bob White

Bob  Jarus

Preston Powell

Leroy Jackson....first round pick

Tom Bloom

Frank Baker

Bill Mumse

Bo Scott, 

Larry Conjur

Randy Shulz.

Other than maybe Bo Scott....none of these ring much of a bell for Browns fans....even those our age. 

 

You forgot the best one- Ernie Green! And here is where it gets interesting. A casual observer would look at Green and see that in 6 full seasons he averaged 4.8 ypc on 660 attempts, and 10.4+ ypr on 179 receptions- not a bad career at all. Yet in the day he was best known for his blocking for J.B. (and unselfish play). Incidentally the guy became very successful after football and is rightly considered an excellent CEO.

Also, I think your list includes players drafted after Paul Brown left. For example, I know Bo Scott was because I remember him and when he was drafted (1968 I believe). I don't remember the others but if we just stick to players we know whom P.B. drafted, his choice of running mate to JB is still curious. Of those ones you list who were selected by PB, I don't know what their toolbox of skills were like, e.g. were they selected for their running ability and to be Batman II to JB, or for their blocking ability (and running/passing second) in order to be Robin to JB's Batman?

But back to Bobby Mitchell, Ernie Davis and Ernie Green. Yep, you could be right that PB didn't care for Mitchell much. It is interesting to note that Mitchell was outspoken for the time (he later joined JB and Muhammed Ali to protest Ali getting drafted) and maybe rubbed PB the wrong way- JB he would have to accept but not Mitchell. While Mitchell and Davis were very similar to what they brought to the table, Green was a completely different animal, and therefore offered a very different philosophy to PB's offensive scheme. So PB went with Mitchell, then Davis and then turned left and went with Green. Would have been interesting to ask him why he did that but of course we can't.

But who knows, maybe we are over thinking and PB just took the Rb he felt was best and figured he would fit him into the system.

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Well...along with Willie Davis and Bobby Mitchell,  PB also traded away:  Henry Jordan  HOF,  Dick LeBeau  HOF, Len Dawson HOF, and Doug Atkins  HOF

I do think it possible that once Otto Graham retired that  PB lost his mojo.......but, nevertheless, the team of the 1960s that appeared in like 4 NFL/NFC title games was still mainly players brought in by PB, with obvious notable additions like Warfield and Kelly.  So, while he got rid of good players, he still kept a lot of good players. 

Offense was always PB's strong suit. If one is totally objective the Browns have had very few dominant defensive players compared to many other teams. And fwiw Kelly and Warfield were drafted right before the '64 season, after PB was gone and when Blanton Collier was onboard.

6 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

All of us who remember Bobby Mitchell play can be officially in the old geezers club of America.

Mitchell and Brown one great backfield, RIP Mr Mitchell.

 

How do you know I'm not a 12-year old kid who just reads up on ancient Browns history?! 😁 Actually, I started watching the Browns in '65. I hated no team as much as I hated the Packers. I still grimace when I see that f*in G on their helmet.

19 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well....he is on the HOF,  so I think that right there proves he was recognized and appreciated.  But, you are right...the Redskins owner was an avowed racist. 

But, see how the worm has turned:   the city of Washington DC  threatened the Redskins that they would not allow the team further use of the stadium if the Redskins did not integrate, and they succumbed to that pressure. 

Can you imagine some NFL owner today succumbing to such a tactic?  Today the owner would just say "fine"...I am moving the team to...you name it..San Antonio or the like. 

Yes, it sure was a different time. That trade was also significant in Art Modell firing Paul Brown, as P.B. made that trade without telling Modell. When the owner of the Redskins found that out he called Modell, who was, of course, a new owner, and said "You own that team. You should never let that happen again," That set the ball rolling for Brown's ultimate firing, if it hadn't begun already.

This may be treading on hallowed ground, but you have to wonder what P.B. was thinking when he made this trade. Mitchell had an Olympic qualifying time in the 100 yd dash, had been averaging 5.3 ypc, and, when he was traded to the Redskins and converted to a WR, made the All-Pro team the next 3 years. In fact, his being in the HOF was more the result of his pass receiving than running. Plus he was young. He was the perfect complement to Jim Brown. So what was PB thinking? Even with Ernie Davis being heralded as much as he was, there wasn't much room for improvement even if Davis lived up to expectations.

Along with trading away Willie Davis, another HOF, these two trades by PB are unfortunately put on the negative side of the ledger, imo.

Mitchell was a great and under-rated player. He deserved a lot more recognition for not only his playing but for breaking the racial barrier (1st black player on the Redskins).