Flugel

It is interesting math Gumbs! It IS possible when he impressed teams at the combines in the Okie drills and for his perceived flexibility playing another position inside - it was a false positive. For example, did all the elite defensive linemen attend that all star game/week of practices to show us where Corbett stands among guys that will make NFL rosters and start? Forgot where I heard it, but it was rumored other teams were interested in Corbett in round 2 as well. That's fine; but I still wonder what specifically made him more gotta have than Nick Chubb in round 2? I still remember the cameras on Dorsey celebrating that pick like he landed the steal of that draft. For all I know, time and patience could prove him right. All that said, I like the competition setting up here on the right side. Even though I've read they're giving Forbes a shot at Tackle, the way he can trap and pull (as well as his elite rankings in tests measuring explosion) - Forbes is my dark horse for the RG spot. He looks REALLY polished on film. He doesn't belly back off the line of scrimmage when he traps and pulls, keeps ideal pad height, and does a good job with his feet so that he doesn't over extend.

I'm not sure there's anything I can tell you that will make you feel better Clevsies. I still don't think we got the full story in terms of the why they only wanted him using 2 of the moves he's been taught. I do think there are reasons the man behind the decision never got to share in the way this info went public. If not, things are adding up here like A2+B2=ABBA His position coach Clyde Simmons was a 2 time All Pro and 15 year vet with a 19 sack season and 13 sack season on the resume as a DE. Same guy coached Robert Quinn to 19 sacks in 2013 (a single season franchise record) and helped get Aaron Donald off to a great start hurrying/sacking passers. Hard to see a handcuffing mentality from Simmons there. Bruce Smith also worked with MG on moves and fundamentals thanks in large to GW initiating it. That's a pretty good wealth of knowledge and instructions Williams helped equip MG with. That's why it seems weird GW would do all that only to restrict the volume of moves he wants out of MG if had zero reason to do that. It doesn't make sense especially when GW got career best seasons out of Kearse (as a rookie playing a brand new position) and Will Smith in the same seasons he coached both of those defenses to SBs. Pretty good track record for getting career best sack totals of out talented DEs that doesn't have me thinking chicken shitt DC at all. MG made the Pro Bowl the first season he was healthy in Cleveland. That may not make you feel better; but it's pretty good start to build on. If MG is disappointed like you are - that can be a good thing in the sense we won't have to worry about anyone needing to light his fanny. It's lit! We'll see what happens this year...

While true, it's also possible MG isn't very good or nearly as polished at other moves (he had all off season ahead to work on) to the extent Cyde Simmons and GW didn't want him wasting any important game reps on trial and error. You gotta remember this was the first season he wasn't playing though an injury that kept getting re-aggravated so he's off to a good start. If his biggest asset is 1st step explosion, you hold that hostage with the reaction to tackle mode you speak of. MG is a #1 overall pick here to dictate not react. I think he was doing really good with that so much so that when he was beating a lot of guys - MG began to complain none of the officials were calling what he felt were blatant holds, rinse and repeat. Quite a few of those came when he already got past the tackles that grabbed him from behind. Just me; but I would have rather had Myles not say anything and work on these other moves in the off season. If he shows a position coach or DC the new moves are worth tapping - they'll give it a green light. The constant decisions go for it 4th and 1 stuff when we had the ball should remind you GW isn't a conservative kind of guy at all. Not only that, when he got the HC job in Buffalo years ago - he said on a radio interview that he often chipped in to help the STs in practice and the lateral they call the Music City Miracle from Frank Wychek to Dyson on the KO Return Unit was his idea they practiced until the right situation presented itself. Nothing conservative about the guy. I'm not saying we can't do better at DC; but I am saying GW probably had good enough reasons to just help MG make a Pro Bowl. In our gridiron chess table - the rook didn't need to be a queen. At least not yet...

I like Myles but I don't think this was necessary at all. Do we really have all the information here in terms of why? If anything, GW gets more criticized for being too aggressive and blitz happy. Hear me out before we accept GW just woke up stupid under Ohio skies. Although I will accept occasional bouts of senile (ie: all those teams that wanted to hire him as HC). First, GW took another guy named Jevon Kearse that began his college career at Florida as a Safety before transitioning to a standup OLB in a 4-3. In 1999, GW was the DC when Kearse was a rookie that changed his position 1 more time to DE. As a result, Kearse became NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, First Team All Pro and AFC Defensive Player of the Year all in the 1999 rookie season GW was his DC. He had 14.5 sacks, 8 forced fumbles and 15 tackles for a loss. Coincidentally, that was the same year TN made it to their only SB. In 2000, he had the 2nd highest sack volume of his career with 11 (in GW's final season as his DC). After GW's departure, Kearse dropped to 10 sacks - and then he proceeded to never reach double digit sacks again in his career under different DCs. Needless to say, it wasn't GW that put the muzzle or a leash on the Freak. Next, the ONLY year the Saints won a SB, GW was their DC. This was the same season former Buckeye DE Will Smith had a career best 13 sacks in his 9 year NFL career. Again, I see no muzzle or leash on GW's best edge rusher. Understanding this so far, my guess is there were sound reasons GW simplified some stuff for Garrett. If memory serves me right, GW hooked him up with HOF DE Bruce Smith to work with MG on his pass rush moves and fundamentals. One of Bruce Smith's unique/patented pass rush moves was the spin move that Dwight Freeney would later duplicate with great success. Of course what sets up such success, is that first step quickness and explosion that can bust a LT leaning/committing to stop it (which MG definitely has). That said, do we really want a promising young pass rusher that had a 2 year high ankle sprain at TAM and throughout the rookie season in Cleveland re-aggravating it again? I'll bet this was a big reason GW wanted him to focus on the essential fundamentals (rip/swim/etc) before adding to the repertoire (he has the rest of the career ahead of him to build upon). While Bruce Smith had great fundamentals to share - MG's position coach Clyde Simmons (19 sacks in 92 and 13 sacks in 91 making 1st team All Pro in both years) also possessed pass rush expertise from his 15 year career as a DE. My 2 cents, there was a lot of smoke and mirror in that defense last year and the talent/depth/injuries at LB as well as how far into the depth chart we often had to go at CB as well as talent/depth issues at DT. Our personnel dictated what we did as we contemplated why the defense that previously shut Baltimore down suddenly couldn't tackle anyone in the Rats' offense throughout the rematch. That said, we did have a pick 6 called back within the smoke and mirror. Hurrying passers wasn't the problem most of the year. Our biggest problem on D was establishing consistency at stopping the run. Kind of like what the Buffalo Bills struggled to do in the SB where the Giants had 2 recording setting scoring drives exceeding 11 minutes and 13 minutes largely behind Jumbo Elliott and right AT Bruce Smith's swim moves and spin moves (that took himself OUT of the play). They ran at the olay all day said the poet that didn't know it.... And maybe this is something the experience volumes of GW and Simmons worried about while they had to frequently start/play band aids in the LB Corps and secondary behind MG. We DID draft 2 LBers right? We also added a veteran DT to upgrade 1 glaring weakness inside. Anyway, Myles Garrett had a Pro Bowl season we hope he builds upon. Meanwhile, at least on paper, we addressed weaknesses and depth while we hope we have better luck at keeping corners healthy. Stopping and slowing the run at the line of scrimmage can definitely prevent some additional wear and tear to our DBs.

Larry, you guys do a great job on volunteer pay. A lot of the mods today were regulars on the first Browns board I joined back in the day (Zombo, you and Mark) so I have a tendency to forget yuz all carry that responsibility. The guy I argued with the most was Atenears (Stan). Having said that, he had a smart asss quality about him that had me LMFAO while he was ripping my posts to shreds. He also treated Camp Couch like it was a misplaced Kentucky Sorority house. That's when I discovered how freakin funny Zombo was busting Stan's balls. Anyway, I piled up some TOS violations at warped speed in the first couple weeks. When I got the hat-trick, Stan announced "I KNEW HE WAS A KEEPER" as I headed to the penalty box. The lady with the screen name Boo - wanted to be Barney Fyfe when she got older so a few us had her just living the dream. Stan got so sick of her tattling and AOL's rules - it gave him the idea and kick in the pants to start up a board. One of the last conversations I had with Stan he said "Flugel is Ghoolie THAT bad to where I gotta hear about him for 3 hours at a tailgate and during the game from people? If so, why does everyone read him and respond to him to the extent those become the biggest threads of views and participation?" I said he's not bad if you only want Cheech and Chong baby sitting his asss without pay. Truth be told - he IS that bad to people or you wouldn't be hearing the complaints. He goes out of his way to disrespect Hoorta all the time. A lot of people don't know this but once upon a time Stan and Zombo had Ghoolie and his side-kick quarantined to their own small kennel (like Zombo did in here not too long ago) where it was anything goes and you deserve what you get upon entering. BUT, those 2 trolls also frequented another Browns Board to trash and slander Stan. He sent me a PM saying "you gotta see what those 2 clowns are saying about me and you're really good at pissing people off Flugel." How about this for a gee thanks? I said give me the name of that dump and I'll get their skin crawling and doing aerobics with the inconvenient truth. I went in there with the attitude of "if they ain't cryin I ain't tryin" and came out of there with a bunch of recruits for our board that wanted to see more of the same. Anyway, I reminded Stan of that capability/extent before he and Ghoolie had some sort of "Come to Jesus" moment about their past in Vegas. I told him I don't know why we always let Ghoolie out of the kennel and into the mainstream when that was a perfect way to end the complaints to mods about him. It worked as an anything goes quarantine much like a sign in Florida that reads don't feed the alligators. If someone chooses to feed an alligator - they have to be willing to wrestle something that wants to bite a lot more than the bait in their hand. Here's the thing, when someone knows how to wrestle the alligator - it's entertaining. I'm not gonna lie. There was nothing funnier than watching Dutch hunt Ghoolie for FREE! FWIW, you're going to get opinionated people on message boards. That's what they recruit so it is what it is. That old saying you can't have 2 alphas in 1 litter was in BC (Before Cellphones). We got a lot of alphas in here and that's what makes it fun to read. The best advice I can give anyone is TRY to remember why Stan started this board. If someone has an ego or confidence in their research you disapprove of - show them why and have the type of fun this board was designed to give you. I think you always do a good job of showing someone why you disagree at least in my experiences disagreeing with your ugly asss. You old bastard.

That's a riot! Then there's the world according to Ghoolie. "Oh yeah Flugel? While you were trying to best case scenario yourself up a PHUCKING participation ribbon, I made 1st team All America on the varsity football team at 16 years of age without wearing a helmet or shoulder pads that the rest of the sissies required. When I turned 17, the gridiron challenge was boring and over; so I hung up the cleats and made my first million $. By the time I turned 18 - I was the White Jim Brown that had both of Raquel Welch's ankles in the air in my bed on a regular basis. When I turned 19, I got so sick of Elvis asking to borrow money all the time I had to move to the other side of Memphis..."

That's awesome. When it's Hammer time we'll just change the instruments to bagpipes.

Back in 83, we drafted a guy like this in round 12 out of Boston University - Paul Farren. As a long shot to make the team, this former college Guard and Center not only made this team. He started his first 6 games at RT in 84 before starting 13 games for us LT in 85 (when both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece). In 86, he started all 16 games - but some of them were at LG due to injuries (we were 12-4 that year). In 87, he started all 12 games he suited up for at LT and started all 15 games there he suited up for in 88. In 89 and 90, he had 29 more starts at LT. That's a lot of starts at a really important position during the decade the Browns frequented the playoffs the most in since the SB era. Farren finally settled into a backup role in 91 and retired. Not a bad career for a guy that required some degree of patience during the coach em up/development process. Sometimes I have to remind myself not to write everyone off that doesn't shine immediately. Tony (T-Bone) Jones is another guy that comes to mind in the sense he was undrafted out of Western Carolina. In the 184 games he played in from 1988 to 2000, he started 174 of them. Many of those were with us from 88-95. As much as I eternally HATE the Denver Broncos, I was really happy for him when he started for 2 of their SB Champion teams and made the Pro Bowl in 1998.

Thanks Cals! I wasn't a superstar by any means; but I tried for a guy that was only 5'10". I went to countless football camps in the 10 years I played. I also learned a lot about using my lack of height to my advantage in the leverage wars favoring pad height, base and getting to contact/location first. The last camp I went to my junior year in high school that had kids from all over NY state - I won the trophy for the most outstanding offensive linemen. That served as a GREAT reminder to myself that hard work really pays off. Ironically, the guy that handed me the trophy was the Head Coach of a rival school. Anyway, the same guy later became an Athletic Director and hired me as a Head Coach in the high school football program his son played for (as a Center). I played back in the 70s and early 80s when the fundamentals were quite a bit different on the line of scrimmage. Arm length wasn't nearly as important for OL as it is today; and HOF OG John Hannah epitomized why. If anyone is as old as me or older - they know what I'm talking about. For example, when I played it was very common for offensive linemen to wear arm pads. As my older brother used to say - "Asss kickers use these as a weapon you throw into the opponent's rib cage. Asss kickees wear these for protection." Like he said, we used to throw our forearms into the guys we were blocking while we were also hitting them with our shoulder pads. In the offseason, I did a lot of power cleans to prepare for throwing those padded up flippers where they belonged. I also did a lot of deadlifts and leg presses. While all that was important, the key to winning position was always getting to location/contact first, better pad height, and superior base. We did a board drill where we had 1 blocker going against another. It started by the 2 OL facing each other in the middle of a board that was about 8-10 yards long. It ended when 1 guy drove the other off the end of the board. That not only taught leverage; but it prevented complacency with starters and provided motivation for backups on a 60 man roster. "You want MY job? All you gotta do is beat me!" That became the mindset one earned busting tail all offseason and inseason to establish; and in order to defend such a passion - you can't be a nice guy. Today, the mosh pit is different and the fundamentals have changed as the game has evolved to emphasize the pass. Length of arms and size and strength of hands have become essential to OL achieving success despite some occasional exceptions to the rule. I don't know how I would have done 5-10 years later to be honest. Sorry for the testosterone stories; but this 55 year old has been appreciates the rare opportunity to pretend I was something in this game once upon a time...

Those are trap plays you speak of and he seems ideal for those. That's what often unfolds on the mis-direction counters you spoke of in another one of your posts. There's short traps and long traps but not every defensive scheme is vulnerable to them so you have to pick the right opportunities to call those. Also, if we do any bootleg/waggle passes - it's not uncommon to pull the OG from 1 side of the formation to the other leading the QB out of the pocket for pass or run.

Well said! He gets from 1 side of the formation to other at the blink of an eye especially considering he did it as a Tackle. That projects extremely well for trapping and pulling at the next level, which could move him to Guard (aside from the arm length).

Great job with that all throughout Zombo! It'll be interesting to see what CB covers the slot; because teams don't always put their worst WR in the slot. For example, Randy Moss was the slot in Minnesota when Cris Carter and Jake Reed were the WRs outside. Jarvis Landry in Miami and Cleveland. And now Ratville just drafted a 165 lb WR that will get pressed into worthlessness at the line of scrimmage if he's anywhere but slot or flanker. In 2001, we broke in rookie CB Anthony Henry covering the slot receivers exclusively - and he led the conference with 10 INTs. That not only was his best NFL season; but it also marked the only time he played the position he was best suited for. It makes me wonder if we should consider starting Greedy Williams out in that kind of role when we factor in the type of seasons Ward and Mitchell just had outside (when healthy). I say such a thing because Mitchell and Ward looked like an incredible tandem when both were healthy (as infrequently as we had both of them together). A couple reasonable arguments to that idea, is we'd be wasting Greedy's ideal arm length for jamming WRs at the line of scrimmage if we had him in that role. And the reality of this idea is we had a hard time keeping Mitchell and Ward healthy enough to play in the same games as often as we needed them to. It's not such a bad challenge to have especially when we'll probably get to see a lot of Ward, Greedy and Mitchell on the field at the same time. Carrie gives us reliable depth.

Speaking of washed up, Hallmark fired Cupid when they found an unparalleled love someone had for Barkley on this board. Rumor has it Cupid was last spotted trying to talk Tom Coughlin into Leonard Fournette's long term future in Jax. Unfortunately, Coughlin already got the Love Po. Stay tuned for what a GREAT kid Kareem Hunt is... Good thing too; because we haven't had a Mother Teresa on the roster since Josh Gordon left us for a cup of coffee in New England....

Had me at "The Scottish Hammer." If Farmer was still here the first thing that would come to mind is "yeah but is he sober?"

Good point Tia! Bowles DOES use a lot of 1 gap in his 3-4 especially when he's had the personnel to green light it. For example, when he took over the DC position in Arizona - he made a lot of guys upfront really happy he didn't square peg the round hole Horton preferred to do all the time. Your better Coordinators don't stay married to 1 scheme for an alignment. That was a big reason he was hired by the Jets that got stale with Rex's preferred schematics in the 3-4. Bowles will vary the 1-gap vrs 2-gap schemes up front depending on personnel as well wide side of field/formations faced. Pettine said he didn't always agree with Rex when he was his DC either. All that said, Vita Vea will be on the Nose in Tampa. Now I have to edit the rest because I got it all wrong yesterday. Vea isn't best suited for 2 gap Meat and Greet at line of scrimmage. He's actually best suited for 1 gap Beat and Eat in the backfield. Here's the pre-draft scouting report reflecting this: Vita Vea, 6-5/332 Defensive Tackle Washington Vita Vea Scouting Report By Charlie Campbell Strengths: Surprising athleticism Explosive defender Good instincts Very disruptive Physical force at the point of attack Tough run defender who can hold his gap Excellent run defender Good burst off the snap Has some pass-rushing skills Collapses the pocket Can destroys guards and centers with a bull rush Flashes speed to run by them Very strong Very quick for his size Closes well for a heavy tackle Ability to shed blocks Frees up edge rushers, linebackers Can play with good leverage Uses bull rush to push the pocket Perfect fit as a 3-4 nose tackle Good fit as a 4-3 tackle Eats up double teams Good motor Gives a second effort Awareness Upside

Exactly. They did draft DT Vita Vea in round 1 of 2018. Ironically, he had a nagging leg injury that kept him sidelined for the first 5-6 weeks or so. Then he had to gradually increase his reps. Near the end of the season - he started to look like the solid starter they hoped he'd be. More irony? He might even be better suited to play NT when they switch to a 3-4 under Todd Bowles in 2019. He's not Buster Hymen with the penetration; but he'll fill 2 gaps real good according to Miss Behavin...

Well said! Believe it or not, it was frequently brought up on local radio throughout 2018 when his career wear and tear was sidelining him once again. A big part of his depreciation on the field is he's never healthy enough to get back in some semblance of the football shape he used to be in. I'm thinking their FO pretty much had this in mind when they drafted Vita Vea out Cal in round 1 last year. The radio hosts are constantly reminding callers that making 6 Pro Bowls for the Bucs when healthy isn't exactly pond scum. I'm guessing social media isn't giving him the kinder, gentler either... Right now, the Bucs are so financially challenged in their cap that they can't sign anyone without removing McCoy's cap hit from what's being said. When their salary cap is at check mate with a 5-11 record, their fans gotta realize there's way bigger problems than 1 symptom (McCoy). They might have to put Carl Nassib in charge of their cap; and that ain't good... All that said, I think we should go after him after Tampa has to cut him. He wouldn't start over Richardson or Ogunjobi; but he could give us reliable depth/rotation reps with fresh legs. I remember back in the 1978 when we had Greg Pruitt, Cleo Miller and a young Mike Pruitt - we signed a 31 year old Calvin Hill who many were calling Calvin Over-the-Hill due to his bad knees and overall wear and tear. However, whenever we called on him - he ended up contributing 7 TDs (6 pass 1 run), 623 yards from scrimmage and the most yards receiving per game from any of our RBs. He was a much better story here than his book cover promoted at the time. Maybe it's just the fan in me talking; but I think McCoy can bring a very similar reliability to the same career back to the wall situation Hill came out of. Reading and hearing all the hate after 6 Pro Bowl efforts puts a very talented football player back into a something to prove mentality. I wouldn't mind us being the beneficiary of that kind of thang.

Production improved in 2018, which is WHY he started and stayed on the field. A lot of other LBs that don't think they can start for a team that frequents National Championships choose to play at schools like Michigan. What part of Nick Saban's panic attacks about the kid entering the draft didn't you understand? If you look at passes defensed in 2018, Mack had 7 while both of the Devins had 6. Do you know what beats speed? Instincts. And they aren't measuring it at the combines or the workouts. Ray Lewis wasn't discovered with a stop watch. Shazier was though. The problem with that is film showed he tackled way too frequently with the crown of his helmet. Now, before you James Harrison me - Shazier doesn't have the neck circumference of an oak tree to survive the Harrison style of play; so he didn't. Over the years (inclusive of Ohio State), Shazier missed a lot of tackles with the head down not seeing what he was supposed to be tackling. I heard he was a great kid though... Here's some more highlights of mack:

I found this piece of an article really interesting: According to Alex Byington of the Montgomery Advertiser, Saban made several last-ditch efforts to get Wilson to return for his senior season at Alabama. The Crimson Tide coach even reached out to Wilson’s mother and godfather, Todd Dowell, for assistance in keeping the linebacker in school. For Saban, it came down to one thing, Wilson needing more time and experience to become ready for life in the NFL. In response to that issue, Dowell asked Saban a question the coach must not have been prepared to answer. “You’ve had him three years. What are you going to do in a year that you haven’t done in three?” Dowell asked Saban. “He couldn’t answer.” ****************************************************************************************************************************************** My guess is if the kid sucked - Saban doesn't beg like that. No need to. He only goes to that length if he has high expectations for Wilson.

That wouldn't suck at all Gips!

Aside from the hits, do you know what really jumped out at me in the video? He's got a collage of INTs telling me he's pretty freakin good in coverage. He may not have the foot speed of Bush or White; but if he has elite 1st step instinct he can be just as effective/better in zone coverage. For example, PFW indicates White and Bush both had 6 passes defensed in 2018 while Mack Wilson had 7.

Lindy's Draft Guide has him as the #3 rated ILB as a true junior in 2018 with a 2nd round projection. Here's a video I found: I still fondly remember when Greg Loyd tried to spear Kevin Mack. More specifically, Loyd took a field trip to Mars and woke up to smelling salts thinking he was in Pluto. The poor knuckleheads that had to carry his asss off the field had to say "Welcome to Cleveland!" In honor of the warm fuzzies, here's a song for the new badasss in town named Mack:

There's 2 choices with a piece of shit: 1. Let it float and stink -or- 2. Flush it bye bye to the sewers

Just telling it like it is! I hit the deck LMAO at the Chocolate Laurinaitis. It only makes sense to share a video with Vanilla Chocolate Ice doing the lyrics and music (that people may wanna mute) of his 2017 season at Illinois. I agree with your analysis. Understanding what we saw in the previous video of his senior year, this guy sure comes up with a lot of turnovers defending the pass for a MIKE. Great assets to bring to an NFL Defense in a passing era. I hope he didn't transfer to Maryland just to get on the Ratbirds' radar. But if he DID, I could see that plan getting intercepted by Dorsey-Doe.

Here's a video of Watson that isn't hard to look at but you might want to mute the Ghoolie-esque lyrics...