Day of Prayer Ritual Deemed Unconstitutional

[VaporTrail]

On Thursday, April 15, 2010, SR U.S. District Court Judge Barbara B. Crabb ruled that the National Day of Prayer Proclamation, instituted by Ronald Reagan in 1988, is unconstitutional. Freedom From Religion Foundation v George W. Bush was filed in Wisconsin in 2008 and has been progressing through the courts since that time. The subsequent ruling in the case was filed as Freedom From Religion Foundation v Barrack Obama & Robert Gibbs to reflect the change in administration after the 2008 elections. Judge Crabb explained her decision by stating that “…[the National Day of Prayer's] goes beyond mere ‘acknowledgement’ of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context.” She continued, “In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual’s decision whether and when to pray.”

 

[smalls1129]

 

 

 

What does being a Christian Nation have anything to do with this? It wasn't a national day of Christian Prayer, it was a national day of prayer. I don't understand, once again why this offends anyone. It isn't telling you that you have to pray to a singular entity nor to a singular religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. And again I am not so sure that the word prayer indicates religion at all.

[VaporTrail]

It doesn't have anything to do with a christian nation, I was simply trolling.

 

I don't understand, once again why this offends anyone.

 

Me neither, but apparently, it does.

 

And again I am not so sure that the word prayer indicates religion at all.

 

Well, I'd disagree, I'd say it's a very specific type of meditation.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I think the back half of that decision is a bit of a stretch. Does the judge really think this influences whether an individual prays or doesn't pray, or when they should or can? Come on.

 

It's a general, non-specific, non-denominational day that nobody really gives a shit about anyway. The government simply has to stay neutral. It doesn't have to expunge every single mention of religion, or pretend it doesn't exist.

[Westside Steve]

I think the back half of that decision is a bit of a stretch. Does the judge really think this influences whether an individual prays or doesn't pray, or when they should or can? Come on.

 

It's a general, non-specific, non-denominational day that nobody really gives a shit about anyway. The government simply has to stay neutral. It doesn't have to expunge every single mention of religion, or pretend it doesn't exist.

 

Probably true.

It's just a petty insult to a certain group of people that the left dislikes.

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Oh, please. It's not like there's not an argument to be made here. This wasn't a decision made out of pique.

 

As if somewhere this judge is thinking, "Yeah! Eat shit, religious people!"

 

Good God.

 

[calfoxwc]

Judge Crabby, btw, is a flaming partisan liberal.

 

 

Appointed by Jimmy Carter no less. Her argument is flawed, that a national day of prayer tells people to pray...

 

that is like saying Martin Luther King day tells people to talk and write about him.

 

It is to honor the contributions and goodness of the man, and the aspect of those who pray.

 

Dumb decision.

 

But surely, she decided to allow a judge to become a Democrat, and for him to campaign for Obama.

 

blech.

[VaporTrail]

Oh, please. It's not like there's not an argument to be made here. This wasn't a decision made out of pique.

 

As if somewhere this judge is thinking, "Yeah! Eat shit, religious people!"

 

Good God.

 

I lol'd at the thought.

[heckofajobbrownie]

At some point Steve is going to realize that everything can't be summed up in two sentences of overly-cynical partisan pique.

 

Some people take their jobs very seriously, and simply have different views and come to different conclusions. These people don't exist in the world of this board. The only motivation people on the left have - even those left of the center left - is hating Republicans.

[calfoxwc]

At some point Steve is going to realize that everything can't be summed up in two sentences of overly-cynical partisan pique. Heck

********************

Steve seems to communicate far more succinctly - it takes you four.

[Mr. T]

Oh, please. It's not like there's not an argument to be made here. This wasn't a decision made out of pique.

 

As if somewhere this judge is thinking, "Yeah! Eat shit, religious people!"

 

Good God.

 

I would hope not, unlike how some progressives have acted about it.

 

Judge Crabb explained her decision by stating that “…[the National Day of Prayer's] goes beyond mere ‘acknowledgement’ of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context.” She continued, “In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual’s decision whether and when to pray.”

 

But it is sad that she, Judge Crabb was likening this to being a mandated law. Where did it state thet this was a statute in any way? But only a day of recognition. We have days set aside to recognize many other things, such as "Earth Day" for equality sake she should also strike that down as well.

 

Isn't the progressive movement all about equality?

[heckofajobbrownie]

Earth Day isn't a religious observance, T. Neither is Labor Day or Veteran's Day or President's Day.

 

That would be the difference.

 

The government can't tell you to pray, or when, or to suggest that it prefers people who do pray over people who don't. The question is whether you think the government has stepped over that line by holding a National Day of Prayer. This judge thinks it has.

 

We have cases like this all the time - can the government fund a display of Jesus in the manger at Christmas time and put it in the town square? Is a Christmas tree a secular symbol or a religious one, or both? Can a school, funded entirely by the government, hold Christian prayers before school starts, or before football games?

 

This is why we have courts. (To rub the Republicans' noses in it! Haha!)

 

 

 

 

[Mr. T]

Earth Day isn't a religious observance, T. Neither is Labor Day or Veteran's Day or President's Day.

 

That would be the difference.

 

The government can't tell you to pray, or when, or to suggest that it prefers people who do pray over people who don't. The question is whether you think the government has stepped over that line by holding a National Day of Prayer. This judge thinks it has.

 

We have cases like this all the time - can the government fund a display of Jesus in the manger at Christmas time and put it in the town square? Is a Christmas tree a secular symbol or a religious one, or both? Can a school, funded entirely by the government, hold Christian prayers before school starts, or before football games?

 

This is why we have courts. (To rub the Republicans' noses in it! Haha!)

 

 

And what is Earth Day then? a day of observance. Unlike Labor Day or Veterans Day which are national holidays. You are an idiot when it comes to comparisons.

 

And what does your local, state & federal government spend on activities around "Earth Day"? Does all of the advertising and literature for this just fall from the trees?

 

So the president requests a day of prayer and all of you little hippies get your panties tied in a knot and waste tax payer dollars to have it removed. doesnt make since in my opinion, you dont have to pray if you dont want to. Nobody is forcing you to attend a church or do anything out of the norm on "National Day of Prayer". While we spend Tax Dollar$ on education of mother earth. And kiddies have to listen to propagated BS in the class room.

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yes, you clearly have a firm grasp of the Constitutional issues here, T. And thanks for clearing up my point about Earth Day and Veterans Day being secular holidays, versus a day of prayer being a religious one, and how that's not important, and what's really important is that one is a national holiday where you get the day off, and one is a national holiday where you don't. That really does make me me an "idiot with comparisons". So true.

 

Thanks for helping me out.

[Westside Steve]

Oh, please. It's not like there's not an argument to be made here. This wasn't a decision made out of pique.

 

As if somewhere this judge is thinking, "Yeah! Eat shit, religious people!"

 

Good God.

 

 

That's exactly what I think.

I can't really get a handle on your unnecessary bitterness.

 

I'm not a believer but your constant gloating over shit like this is a little sick.

 

WSS

[Mr. T]

The government can't tell you to pray, or when, or to suggest that it prefers people who do pray over people who don't. The question is whether you think the government has stepped over that line by holding a National Day of Prayer. This judge thinks it has.

 

We have cases like this all the time - can the government fund a display of Jesus in the manger at Christmas time and put it in the town square? Is a Christmas tree a secular symbol or a religious one, or both? Can a school, funded entirely by the government, hold Christian prayers before school starts, or before football games?

 

 

This is where you are wrong Heck, Nobody was telling anyone they had to pray. Plus the National day of prayer isn't a violation of the first amendment. It neither creates or endorses a national religion.

 

Christians, Jews, Muslims all pray. I would bet that even Scientologists, Buddhists and Atheists meditate.

 

It is no different than saying "One Nation Under God" or saying "God Bless America".

 

 

This is why we have courts. (To rub the Republicans' noses in it! Haha!)

 

Judge Crabb's motives are apparent as those who brought the case forward.

 

All this does is setup lawyers to be able to make a buck off of those who hold onto their religous beliefs and want to have a public prayer.

 

 

The National Day of Prayer, is a simple acknowledgement as Samuel Adams said on September 6, 1774 on the second day of the Continental Congress in proposing the session be opened with prayer, in spite of the various Christian sects that were represented.

 

I bet Heck wants to have "In God We Trust" removed from the dollar as well, while he dances on the constitution and in spits in everybodys eye.

 

 

[osusev]

wow..........

 

Its simple you can pray any day you want but the SEPERATION of Church and State for a Secular government is there for a reason.

 

Look up the Treaty of Tripoli fully ratified by the senate....... We are NOT founded as a Christian nation.

 

Just because some of you are and dont like it when your religion get its hand slapped by the judicial arm for over stepping constitutional grounds does not make people like myself or heck bitter.......

 

NO tax dollars should be funding ANY religion period..... you really want to open those doors to the myriads of other practices? I dont.....

[calfoxwc]

We WERE founded with Christian principled men in the mix.

 

Not as a state mandated religion, but some principles intact as a basis.

 

Stop your incessant whining on the subject, Sev.

[Mr. T]

wow..........

 

Its simple you can pray any day you want but the SEPERATION of Church and State for a Secular government is there for a reason.

 

Look up the Treaty of Tripoli fully ratified by the senate....... We are NOT founded as a Christian nation.

 

Just because some of you are and dont like it when your religion get its hand slapped by the judicial arm for over stepping constitutional grounds does not make people like myself or heck bitter.......

 

NO tax dollars should be funding ANY religion period..... you really want to open those doors to the myriads of other practices? I dont.....

 

 

Sev, no tax dollars were involved with the National Day of Prayer.

 

But dont think that we are treading on dangerous ground with the hatred that is being spewed from the left? You can feel the venom in their speech.

[osusev]

We WERE founded with Christian principled men in the mix.

 

Not as a state mandated religion, but some principles intact as a basis.

 

Stop your incessant whining on the subject, Sev.

 

first of all those "principles" are not inherently"christian" considering that religion is a little of 2k years old...... those principles are in many religions and its well documented in legal treaties and by quite a few of the founding fathers we were not formed to be a christian nation..... get over it.

 

I'm not"whining" go educate yourself on some history....

[Westside Steve]

wow..........

 

Its simple you can pray any day you want but the SEPERATION of Church and State for a Secular government is there for a reason.

 

 

Yes.

It was put in play in the 19th century to keep the Spanish and French from getting a foothold in the south.

 

As for your bitterness, who knows Sev?

Maybe it just makes you feel like a big man to hate Christians.

Ironically similar to you're own portrayal of those who want to stop gay marriage.

 

Why should I give a rats ass about two men getting married OR haviing a traditional day of prayer?

 

Just to be a prick?

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Um, because there are important Constitutional issues at stake?

[Westside Steve]

Um, because there are important Constitutional issues at stake?

 

Um, no.

How about someone decided that MLK day was racist and petitioned the SC to have it abolished on constitutional grounds.

Would you think that was merely an attempt to follow that presumed constitutional directive concerning fairness, or just someone being a prick?

 

WSS

[smalls1129]

Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.

[VaporTrail]

Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.

 

I would agree with the ruling. I think prayer is an inherently religious function, it has no place in my life as an atheist, why should the government be urging me to do something that is religious. I would, however, say that prayer is a very specific form of meditation. Meditation is not inherently religious, if it were the national day of meditation, where the government urged me to sit back, relax, and meditate, then that would not signify religion and I don't think that atheists would take issue with it.

[Chicopee John]

Never been in a "foxhole" have you, Vape?

[heckofajobbrownie]

Can either Heck or Steve please tell me how this breaks down into a Separation of Church and State. Prayer doesn't signify any religion, so how is it a matter of church v state. I haven't gone to church (read an organized religious event) in years, but it hasn't been more than 2 months since I prayed. And has far as the difference between meditation (to include the Eastern religions) and prayer are merely semantic. They are two sides of the same coin. Being that there was no mandate...nor government altered activities (ie Congress not in session) I just don't see how it applies.

 

It's basically what Vapor is saying.

 

The argument goes that the government has no place suggesting that the nation should pray, which is an inherently religious exercise, or when, or whether to pray or not. And that in doing so, the government is saying that it favors people who pray over those that don't, and that the government must steer clear of promoting or sanctioning any religious exercise.

 

 

 

 

[VaporTrail]

/edit @John

 

Yes, because everyone who's ever been in a battle believed that there was a divine power looking over them. My never having been in a foxhole is completely irrelevant. My grandfather was a marine, but he's an atheist, my dad was in the Army, and he's a theist. Being shot at has no bearing on your belief in a higher power. You may wish one is there, and you may wish that someone's watching over you, but that doesn't equate to belief, what you hold to be true.

[calfoxwc]

first of all those "principles" are not inherently"christian" considering that religion is a little of 2k years old...... those principles are in many religions and its well documented in legal treaties and by quite a few of the founding fathers we were not formed to be a christian nation..... get over it. Sev boo-hooing

**********************************

you WERE whining.

 

those "principles" are existent in other religions? go read Joseph Campbell's "Hero of a Thousand Faces"

 

and grow up on your retorts. The commonality of how man views the universe in man's own understanding

 

is -universal-, Sev - it has it's common aspects from the very beginning of the existence of humans on this planet.

 

We have no national religion, thank goodness, but some of the Founders were Christians, some not...

 

but those Principles are still in place.

 

The fact that some of those principles also appear elsewhere has nothing to do with anything, unless you think

the Founding Fathers were Buddist, Muslim and other, more obsure and ancient religions.

[Westside Steve]

Of course the president should make judgments based on personal morality when it's something his pals agree with.

WSS