Bradley And Gay Released

[Flyin J]

The Cardinals have announced they are releasing Stewart Bradley and William Gay. You can almost guarantee we bring in one of them, maybe both. Thoughts?

[Harry Buffalo]

Maybe Gay, but I don't see any reason to bring in Bradley.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I brought up the question of Horton and Gay's relationship in another thread but then did a little research and I expect Gay to end up here. Horton was a secondary coach for the Steelers when Gay was drafted, and then brought him with him to Arizona.

 

Bradley was originally drafted by the Eagles so there's a possible connection with Banner, but I don't forsee us trying to get him. He's barely recorded any stats since tearing his ACL and at this point in his career has been a bust. Interestingly enough, however, Sheldon Brown said Bradley reminded him of Urlacher in his size and athleticism. Maybe Bradley just needs a(nother) change of scenery to revamp his career.

 

 

With our needs at both LB and CB, I could see us adding both, but I really only expect us to sign Gay.

[Flyin J]

My thoughts exactly.

[Harry Buffalo]

I brought up the question of Horton and Gay's relationship in another thread but then did a little research and I expect Gay to end up here. Horton was a secondary coach for the Steelers when Gay was drafted, and then brought him with him to Arizona.

 

Bradley was originally drafted by the Eagles so there's a possible connection with Banner, but I don't forsee us trying to get him. He's barely recorded any stats since tearing his ACL and at this point in his career has been a bust. Interestingly enough, however, Sheldon Brown said Bradley reminded him of Urlacher in his size and athleticism. Maybe Bradley just needs a(nother) change of scenery to revamp his career.

 

 

With our needs at both LB and CB, I could see us adding both, but I really only expect us to sign Gay.

 

Athleticism only goes so far if you don't have the instincts and the technice to play the game. This guy has shown he doesn't have it. I would much better keep the likes of Austin English on the roster for another year to see how he performs as a 3-4 OLB or even look at resigning Benard. At least Benard has produced in the past.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

We actually cut Benard who signed to the Pats and is listed as a DE now

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Athleticism only goes so far if you don't have the instincts and the technice to play the game. This guy has shown he doesn't have it. I would much better keep the likes of Austin English on the roster for another year to see how he performs as a 3-4 OLB or even look at resigning Benard. At least Benard has produced in the past.

 

I don't think that's the case, I think it's more of a failed transition into a system he wasn't built for. He was All-Pro in the only season he was a full-time starter in, back in Philly's 4-3 scheme. The next season he blew out his ACL in the preseason and then subsequently signed with Arizona. Unfortunately, he didnt fare well in the 3-4, hence his "bust" status. I think a return to the 4-3 will do him well, and he is a good special teams player.

 

But, since we are moving back to a 3-4, I feel he won't be coming to Cleveland.

[Harry Buffalo]

We actually cut Benard who signed to the Pats and is listed as a DE now

 

I was aware he was cut, I was not aware that he actually resigned with anyone.

[Guest]

Gay reportedly joining Steelers.

 

Good place for him snce they already have Rump Ranger at safety.

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/william-gay-rejoining-steelers-677820/

 

Zombo

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

@gerrydulac: Gay on possibly following DC Ray Horton to #Browns: "That's Cleveland. I don't know if I could have handled that."

 

 

At least he's honest. That's worth something.

 

It brings up what we've always known and still feared- players still don't want to come to Cleveland, no matter who's in charge. I'm starting to think that "making a splash" in FA for us is what we saw last year- a couple second-tier guys who are closer to 40 than 20 and just looking for some money to retire with.

 

Cleveland is a tough sell. It's cold, ugly, the river catches on fire, and we don't win games...in any sport. Until we turn things around, we will have to grossly overpay for top FA's, and even then we might not land them.

 

I'm not expecting us to make any large moves this offseason. But with a .500+ season this year and the unveiling of a new logo and uniforms next year, I can see us bringing in some unexpected talent next offseason.

[Guest]

Good points but ...

 

The River doesn't catch on fire anymore. When it did, the team was good. Maybe that's how you reverse the curse ... Set the bitch on fire.

 

Z

[The Gipper]

@gerrydulac: Gay on possibly following DC Ray Horton to #Browns: "That's Cleveland. I don't know if I could have handled that."

 

 

At least he's honest. That's worth something.

 

It brings up what we've always known and still feared- players still don't want to come to Cleveland, no matter who's in charge. I'm starting to think that "making a splash" in FA for us is what we saw last year- a couple second-tier guys who are closer to 40 than 20 and just looking for some money to retire with.

 

Cleveland is a tough sell. It's cold, ugly, the river catches on fire, and we don't win games...in any sport. Until we turn things around, we will have to grossly overpay for top FA's, and even then we might not land them.

 

I'm not expecting us to make any large moves this offseason. But with a .500+ season this year and the unveiling of a new logo and uniforms next year, I can see us bringing in some unexpected talent next offseason.

 

Well, if our own people are going to practice dumbassery like you just did, how can the rest of the country get over their ignorance?

A. It in no colder here than it it is in Boston/NY/Philly/Pitt/Buffalo/Detroit/Cinci/Chicago/Indy/Milwaukee/Green Bay/St. Louis/KC/Denver.

The River catches on fire? Really? It hasn't caught on fire since probably before a lot of these players parents were born. And fyi, rivers caught on fire in just about every major industrial city.

And we haven't won since forever? Neither has San Diego/KC/Buffalo/Seattle/Portland/Charlotte/Columbus/Sacramento/Milwaukee/Salt Lake City/Ottawa/Vancouver/Winnipeg/Orlando. None of these towns have won a thing in the lifetime of a 25 year old. And Edmonton/Calgary/Cincinnati/Minneapolis/Washington DC/Montreal/Toronto...none of these cities have won a thing since a 25 year old was practically in diapers.

So, all of those arguments are specious.

It all comes down to having had bad ownership/management of the sports teams in this town.

Pure and simple as that.

Anyone that doesn't recognize that fact is a ignoramous.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Well, if our own people are going to practice dumbassery like you just did, how can the rest of the country get over their ignorance?

A. It in no colder here than it it is in Boston/NY/Philly/Pitt/Buffalo/Detroit/Cinci/Chicago/Indy/Milwaukee/Green Bay/St. Louis/KC/Denver.

The River catches on fire? Really? It hasn't caught on fire since probably before a lot of these players parents were born. And fyi, rivers caught on fire in just about every major industrial city.

And we haven't won since forever? Neither has San Diego/KC/Buffalo/Seattle/Portland/Charlotte/Columbus/Sacramento/Milwaukee/Salt Lake City/Ottawa/Vancouver/Winnipeg/Orlando. None of these towns have won a thing in the lifetime of a 25 year old. And Edmonton/Calgary/Cincinnati/Minneapolis/Washington DC/Montreal/Toronto...none of these cities have won a thing since a 25 year old was practically in diapers.

So, all of those arguments are specious.

It all comes down to having had bad ownership/management of the sports teams in this town.

Pure and simple as that.

Anyone that doesn't recognize that fact is a ignoramous.

 

 

Couch is from SC. That explains it.

 

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, if our own people are going to practice dumbassery like you just did, how can the rest of the country get over their ignorance?

A. It in no colder here than it it is in Boston/NY/Philly/Pitt/Buffalo/Detroit/Cinci/Chicago/Indy/Milwaukee/Green Bay/St. Louis/KC/Denver.

The River catches on fire? Really? It hasn't caught on fire since probably before a lot of these players parents were born. And fyi, rivers caught on fire in just about every major industrial city.

And we haven't won since forever? Neither has San Diego/KC/Buffalo/Seattle/Portland/Charlotte/Columbus/Sacramento/Milwaukee/Salt Lake City/Ottawa/Vancouver/Winnipeg/Orlando. None of these towns have won a thing in the lifetime of a 25 year old. And Edmonton/Calgary/Cincinnati/Minneapolis/Washington DC/Montreal/Toronto...none of these cities have won a thing since a 25 year old was practically in diapers.

So, all of those arguments are specious.

It all comes down to having had bad ownership/management of the sports teams in this town.

Pure and simple as that.

Anyone that doesn't recognize that fact is a ignoramous.

 

My introductory statement was more satirical than anything but judging by the way you took offense, I can see it struck a nerve, so lets run with it.

 

The point if bringing up the flaws of the city ( i.e. climate, hygiene, etc.) is to emphasize the fact that we're not bringing in FA purely based on the city itself. There's no amenities the city of Cleveland offers that other cities don't have. Nobody says "I want to go to Cleveland", just like nobody says "I want to go to Buffalo".

 

Many of those other cities that you listed which are in the same climate have more to offer...like winning teams. Cleveland does not. Therefore, we will have to over pay for our FA until we can establish a winning tradition.

 

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by listing other teams that haven't won championships lately, but many of those "non-winning" teams you listed are still very good teams in their respective leagues. San Diego is a couple years removed from winning their division in consecutive years and have had multiple playoff appearances in the last decade. KC had more players selected to the Pro Bowl this year than we've had in the last three combined. Once again, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove other than "Hey, we're not the only team that sucks!"

 

 

 

You can say what you want but the city of Cleveland has become a laughingstock to the rest of the country, and not just in sports.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Cleveland?from=Main.ClevelandRocks

 

The city is dying, the population has been a steady decrease for the last 60 years and the steel industry is not making a comeback. Those are facts.

 

Here's a good read that you should give some thought to:

 

http://www.alexmeske.com/Essays/cleveland.htm

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Couch is from SC. That explains it.

 

That could be it.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I would much rather live in a city with 40 miles of beaches and resorts that has been growing steadily over the last 30 years and exponentially in the last decade.

 

 

Golly gee, that must make me a dumber than a plum donkey in a pigpen.

 

 

By the way, not everyone from the South is a grass-chewin' inbred. There's a reason nobody moves north when they retire.

[hoorta]

That could be it.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I would much rather live in a city with 40 miles of beaches and resorts that has been growing steadily over the last 30 years and exponentially in the last decade.

 

 

Golly gee, that must make me a dumber than a plum donkey in a pigpen.

 

 

By the way, not everyone from the South is a grass-chewin' inbred. There's a reason nobody moves north when they retire.

 

 

Yup, everyone wants to live on the beach- until it looks like this. Then it's the big boo-hoo-hho.

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Yup, everyone wants to live on the beach- until it looks like this. Then it's the big boo-hoo-hho.

 

 

 

I'd rather deal with five hurricanes than one snowstorm.

 

There's been one hurricane to do damage of any sort of lasting magnitude in my lifetime, and I was being born as it was ravaging the Grand Strand.

 

In most cases, you get a flooded yard and some tree branches on your roof.

[Erie Dawg]

Why is it that everyone from the south is lazy?

[The Gipper]

My introductory statement was more satirical than anything but judging by the way you took offense, I can see it struck a nerve, so lets run with it.

 

The point if bringing up the flaws of the city ( i.e. climate, hygiene, etc.) is to emphasize the fact that we're not bringing in FA purely based on the city itself. There's no amenities the city of Cleveland offers that other cities don't have. Nobody says "I want to go to Cleveland", just like nobody says "I want to go to Buffalo".

 

And I say that is Bullshit. FA's go where the money is. Again, that is pure and simple. Or they go to where they see a chance to win a championship. If we had competent management prepared to try to win a championship, the FAs would come here.

When the Indians finally decided to pay for a decent manager in Francona, they have now gotten some of the top FAs to come here in Swisher and Bourne. It took them spending and acting like they want to win.

Many of those other cities that you listed which are in the same climate have more to offer...like winning teams. Cleveland does not. Therefore, we will have to over pay for our FA until we can establish a winning tradition.

 

Right, having a "winning team/tradition" is everything. None of the rest of that shit matters like you think it does. And, again, having a winning team/tradition all comes down to competent ownership/management. Just like I said.

 

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by listing other teams that haven't won championships lately, but many of those "non-winning" teams you listed are still very good teams in their respective leagues.

 

I showed that to demonstrate that the elements you talked about: weather/having an industrial past don't mean fucking shit.

 

 

San Diego is a couple years removed from winning their division in consecutive years and have had multiple playoff appearances in the last decade. KC had more players selected to the Pro Bowl this year than we've had in the last three combined. Once again, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove other than "Hey, we're not the only team that sucks!"

 

The point is that San Diego, e.g. is considered to have the best weather in the nation, no industrial past. It is considered somewhat of a "glamour city", yet it has not won shit even as long as Cleveland. So, I demonstrated that weather and all that other bullshit mean don't mean dick. They couldn't even keep their basketball team.

They have had the same bad management/ownership...and some bad luck, just like Cleveland's teams have had. And that is what it is all about.

 

 

 

You can say what you want but the city of Cleveland has become a laughingstock to the rest of the country, and not just in sports.

 

OK, so, others practice dumbassery just like you. Do you belong to a "Dumbasses Club" or what?

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Cleveland?from=Main.ClevelandRocks

 

The city is dying, the population has been a steady decrease for the last 60 years and the steel industry is not making a comeback. Those are facts.

 

So? You are staking your big claim on the steel industry. What century are you living in? No one has claimed the steel industry to be THE vital cog of the economy around here for at least 30 years. While some of us look forward you are looking to the past. Dumbassery.

 

Here's a good read that you should give some thought to:

 

http://www.alexmeske.com/Essays/cleveland.htm

[The Gipper]

That could be it.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I would much rather live in a city with 40 miles of beaches and resorts that has been growing steadily over the last 30 years and exponentially in the last decade.

 

 

Golly gee, that must make me a dumber than a plum donkey in a pigpen.

 

 

By the way, not everyone from the South is a grass-chewin' inbred. There's a reason nobody moves north when they retire.

 

You are not being a dumbass because you are from the South. You are a dumbass because you are acting like a dumbass.

And no, not all people from the South are grass-chewin inbred's. My father-in-law also lives in South Carolina...but, I can tell you that clearly there is still a segment of that population that still are grass-chewin inbreds. I didn't think you were among that crowd, but now I am beginning to wonder. (don't feel bad, there are grass/dirt/iron chewin inbreds even in the north)

[The Gipper]

I'd rather deal with five hurricanes than one snowstorm.

 

There's been one hurricane to do damage of any sort of lasting magnitude in my lifetime, and I was being born as it was ravaging the Grand Strand.

 

In most cases, you get a flooded yard and some tree branches on your roof.

 

Well, now you have proven that you are a dumbass. We have 5 or 10 snowstorms a year. the snow has always melted. Maybe some people get some water in their basement or get a roof leak....but a snow storm won't blow your house into Albemarle Sound.

If I do go south to retire or whatever, it would probably be southwest.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You are not being a dumbass because you are from the South. You are a dumbass because you are acting like a dumbass.

And no, not all people from the South are grass-chewin inbred's. My father-in-law also lives in South Carolina...but, I can tell you that clearly there is still a segment of that population that still are grass-chewin inbreds. I didn't think you were among that crowd, but now I am beginning to wonder. (don't feel bad, there are grass/dirt/iron chewin inbreds even in the north)

 

 

You just see one person say the words "The city of Cleveland sucks" and you get all butthurt, even though we are essentially saying the same stuff. Read what I said, and then read it again. I'm sure dementia is kicking in at this point of your life, so I'll be patient.

 

FA's primarily want to go where they can see themselves win a championship. Therefore, we are already behind the ball in recruiting them as nobody with even a iota of football knowledge believes Cleveland to be a winner. Therefore we have to rely on other selling points in order to bring in FA. "We have a beautiful, temperate major market that continually competes for a division championship" isn't one of those things we can say. So our only option left is to throw more money at a FA than he's worth. Unfortunately, a "competent" GM/owner isn't going to continually offer more than market value for a FA. So, what is it that we have that other teams don't?

 

We aren't a continual winner; we haven't had more than one winning season in the last ten years. We are a mid-market city with some extremely frigid winters. We have a new coaching staff with an unproven rookie head coach and a new owner in his first foray into being a majority owner of a professional sports team. Those are all the facts. That's what it is in every agent's dossier about Cleveland. That's what he'll tell his client, and the player will then say "Thanks, but no thanks."

 

To break it down for you, since you need concise bullet points:

 

-FA's want to go to winners.

-Cleveland is not and has not been a winner.

-Cleveland has no other amenities that a FA will find desirable.

-Cleveland will have to considerably overpay for any FA.

-Competent business-minded owners cannot validate paying considerably over market value for something.

 

 

 

 

 

The city's industrial past has nothing to do with the team's success (or lack thereof) and I never said it did. I never directly tied the industrial side of Cleveland with the sport side of it, because they have nothing to do with each other. What I said is that the city of Cleveland is a declining city. It was a hub in the steel industry and has yet to recover and find a new identity. The population has steadily fallen for the last 50 years. As it was so eloquently put in the Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Video- "The Flats look like a Scooby-Doo ghost town."

 

You're right in saying that nobody has claimed the steel industry as the vital cog in your economy for 30 years, because it isn't. There are no cogs in Cleveland's economy at this point. There is no identity of the city. The "financial district" in Cleveland looks like something Charlotte shit out after eating Atlanta. It's a depressing city and nobody wants to visit there, much less live there. Cleveland needs to rethink it's focus and find a new identity, whatever that identity may be.

 

For example:

 

Recreation is quickly rising in America. Over the last 30 years, there's been a 5000% increase in universities offering graduate and post-graduate degrees in the fields of sport. Professional sports teams can generate up to a third of a city's entire income. Sport tourism is one of the fastest rising facets in the typical American's budget. The city of Indianapolis recognized this trend and have capitalized on this phenomenon, turning their city (mostly the downtown area) into a hub for sporting events. They built a new multi-purpose stadium and then this gaves them the chance to host a Super Bowl. The Super Bowl they hosted then brought in $500 million to their economy alone. In the 8 months of the year that there are no football games, Lucas Oil Stadium is used for concerts, basketball games and other events. They host the NFL Combine. They have found ways to generate income and, in doing so, have made themselves more accessible to the general public. They've become a team that young players want to play for.

 

These are the things Cleveland needs to focus on, and that will in turn make the city more desirable for FA in every sport. The Gateway Plaza is the first step. Doming the stadium may be the next step.

 

 

 

If what I'm saying is widely believed by a majority of the public, wouldn't it be those in the minority (read: you) that are part of the "Dumbasses Club"? Or are you the guy who denies he's on fire until his skin is burnt off?

 

 

Sit through one hurricane and you'll quickly realize that they are nothing more than warm rainstorms. We get one category 4 or 5 that does serious damage every 20-30 years, if that. Like I said, I've been through one in my entire life and I was essentially still in the womb. Most hurricanes do nothing but blow really hard and then fizzle out... kind of like Ghoolie.

[The Gipper]

You just see one person say the words "The city of Cleveland sucks" and you get all butthurt, even though we are essentially saying the same stuff. Read what I said, and then read it again. I'm sure dementia is kicking in at this point of your life, so I'll be patient.

 

FA's primarily want to go where they can see themselves win a championship. Therefore, we are already behind the ball in recruiting them as nobody with even a iota of football knowledge believes Cleveland to be a winner. Therefore we have to rely on other selling points in order to bring in FA. "We have a beautiful, temperate major market that continually competes for a division championship" isn't one of those things we can say. So our only option left is to throw more money at a FA than he's worth. Unfortunately, a "competent" GM/owner isn't going to continually offer more than market value for a FA. So, what is it that we have that other teams don't?

 

We aren't a continual winner; we haven't had more than one winning season in the last ten years. We are a mid-market city with some extremely frigid winters. We have a new coaching staff with an unproven rookie head coach and a new owner in his first foray into being a majority owner of a professional sports team. Those are all the facts. That's what it is in every agent's dossier about Cleveland. That's what he'll tell his client, and the player will then say "Thanks, but no thanks."

 

To break it down for you, since you need concise bullet points:

 

-FA's want to go to winners.

-Cleveland is not and has not been a winner.

-Cleveland has no other amenities that a FA will find desirable.

-Cleveland will have to considerably overpay for any FA.

-Competent business-minded owners cannot validate paying considerably over market value for something.

 

 

 

 

 

The city's industrial past has nothing to do with the team's success (or lack thereof) and I never said it did. I never directly tied the industrial side of Cleveland with the sport side of it, because they have nothing to do with each other. What I said is that the city of Cleveland is a declining city. It was a hub in the steel industry and has yet to recover and find a new identity. The population has steadily fallen for the last 50 years. As it was so eloquently put in the Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Video- "The Flats look like a Scooby-Doo ghost town."

 

You're right in saying that nobody has claimed the steel industry as the vital cog in your economy for 30 years, because it isn't. There are no cogs in Cleveland's economy at this point. There is no identity of the city. The "financial district" in Cleveland looks like something Charlotte shit out after eating Atlanta. It's a depressing city and nobody wants to visit there, much less live there. Cleveland needs to rethink it's focus and find a new identity, whatever that identity may be.

 

For example:

 

Recreation is quickly rising in America. Over the last 30 years, there's been a 5000% increase in universities offering graduate and post-graduate degrees in the fields of sport. Professional sports teams can generate up to a third of a city's entire income. Sport tourism is one of the fastest rising facets in the typical American's budget. The city of Indianapolis recognized this trend and have capitalized on this phenomenon, turning their city (mostly the downtown area) into a hub for sporting events. They built a new multi-purpose stadium and then this gaves them the chance to host a Super Bowl. The Super Bowl they hosted then brought in $500 million to their economy alone. In the 8 months of the year that there are no football games, Lucas Oil Stadium is used for concerts, basketball games and other events. They host the NFL Combine. They have found ways to generate income and, in doing so, have made themselves more accessible to the general public. They've become a team that young players want to play for.

 

These are the things Cleveland needs to focus on, and that will in turn make the city more desirable for FA in every sport. The Gateway Plaza is the first step. Doming the stadium may be the next step.

 

 

 

If what I'm saying is widely believed by a majority of the public, wouldn't it be those in the minority (read: you) that are part of the "Dumbasses Club"? Or are you the guy who denies he's on fire until his skin is burnt off?

 

 

Sit through one hurricane and you'll quickly realize that they are nothing more than warm rainstorms. We get one category 4 or 5 that does serious damage every 20-30 years, if that. Like I said, I've been through one in my entire life and I was essentially still in the womb. Most hurricanes do nothing but blow really hard and then fizzle out... kind of like Ghoolie.

 

 

Winning motherfucker. It is all about winning. Having a competent organization that brings a winner. That is the only thing that matters.

And now apparently you are getting the message because you seem to be backtracking on your statements that "people won't come here because of the weather" "people won't come here because the river burned a thousand years ago" etc. etc.

I am sorry, but I don't think that athletes are the big pussies you think they are that they can't stand a few snowstorms. (maybe you are extrapolating your own weaknesses on to them).

Snow and pollution didn't make our teams bad. Guys like Art Modell, Randy Lerner, Ted Stepian, the Dolans up to this point are what made these teams bad.

Money and winning are the things that will make FAs come here.

Once you learn that you can turn in your Dumbass Club badge.

If the elements you claim to be important were important, then Pittsburgh would be in the same shithole we are. They are only partially there because the owners/management of the Steelers have been competent with no more to work with than what the Browns have had. The Penguins have done the same thing. No one on earth thinks that any amenities associated with Pittsburgh brought any of those good players there. If it did, then why are the Pirates one of the worst teams in sports history?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Winning motherfucker. It is all about winning. Having a competent organization that brings a winner. That is the only thing that matters.

And now apparently you are getting the message because you seem to be backtracking on your statements that "people won't come here because of the weather" "people won't come here because the river burned a thousand years ago" etc. etc.

I am sorry, but I don't think that athletes are the big pussies you think they are that they can't stand a few snowstorms. (maybe you are extrapolating your own weaknesses on to them).

Snow and pollution didn't make our teams bad. Guys like Art Modell, Randy Lerner, Ted Stepian, the Dolans up to this point are what made these teams bad.

Money and winning are the things that will make FAs come here.

Once you learn that you can turn in your Dumbass Club badge.

If the elements you claim to be important were important, then Pittsburgh would be in the same shithole we are. They are only partially there because the owners/management of the Steelers have been competent with no more to work with than what the Browns have had. The Penguins have done the same thing. No one on earth thinks that any amenities associated with Pittsburgh brought any of those good players there. If it did, then why are the Pirates one of the worst teams in sports history?

 

 

Cleveland is a tough sell. It's cold, ugly, the river catches on fire, and we don't win games...in any sport. Until we turn things around, we will have to grossly overpay for top FA's, and even then we might not land them.

 

That is the exact quote from my first post. All you saw was "river catches on fire" and then your pussy got all red and inflamed. No backtracking from me, you just got so butthurt that someone insulted your shithole of a city that you forgot how to read. At no point did I say "Players won't come here because of the weather". What I said was that the city has no selling points.

 

 

FA's won't come here because we don't win games. That is established. Because of that, we will have to sell our city to them in other ways. Unfortunately, the city sucks and is a veritable diarrhea wasteland...so our only selling point is that we have more money to offer them. You can bet that Haslam hasn't gotten to where he is by being loose with his money and I doubt things will change now. Therefore, we will have to win with what we have before we can land any really big FA's.

 

 

I'm not saying that these athletes are pussies. I'm saying that they are multimillion dollar athletes that, in some cases, can have up to 32 suitors at a time. Most, if not all, would take a 10-15% smaller contract to play for a perennial contender than take a 10-15% larger contract and play for some shit team on the shores of a crap-factory lake. Any GM that offers a contract that's more than 15% higher than a FA's supposed market value won't be a GM for long. Ask Matt Miller how overpaying for free agents worked out for him.

 

Pittsburgh is where they are because they have maintained constant success since 1972, when FA was one-tenth of what it is today and players played because they loved the sport. They've had one season in that time where they've won less than 6 games.

 

 

Open your eyes. I'm starting to honestly believe that you truly are suffering from dementia.

[Vagitron]

Winning motherfucker. It is all about winning. Having a competent organization that brings a winner. That is the only thing that matters.

And now apparently you are getting the message because you seem to be backtracking on your statements that "people won't come here because of the weather" "people won't come here because the river burned a thousand years ago" etc. etc.

I am sorry, but I don't think that athletes are the big pussies you think they are that they can't stand a few snowstorms. (maybe you are extrapolating your own weaknesses on to them).

Snow and pollution didn't make our teams bad. Guys like Art Modell, Randy Lerner, Ted Stepian, the Dolans up to this point are what made these teams bad.

Money and winning are the things that will make FAs come here.

Once you learn that you can turn in your Dumbass Club badge.

If the elements you claim to be important were important, then Pittsburgh would be in the same shithole we are. They are only partially there because the owners/management of the Steelers have been competent with no more to work with than what the Browns have had. The Penguins have done the same thing. No one on earth thinks that any amenities associated with Pittsburgh brought any of those good players there. If it did, then why are the Pirates one of the worst teams in sports history?

 

 

Pittsburgh for a long while now has been THE MODEL for urban renewal because it came from the brink and now sits pretty nicely as far as major cities in the United States are concerned. It's not a shit hole where as Cleveland currently sits in a pretty bad way and it doesn't help that the Browns despite being on the mend aren't exactly winning a bunch of games. You bring up the Pirates and really they aren't much different than the Browns currently. Also a team on the mend, finally starting to right the ship after decades of disappointment. Players just aren't going to want to go to Cleveland unless they're offered more money than their current market value OR the Browns start winning and end up being a destination worth while. Pittsburgh IS NOT the same as Cleveland. The city has already turned the corner, Cleveland has not and still finds it names on the 20 worst list year after year.

[The Gipper]

That is the exact quote from my first post. All you saw was "river catches on fire" and then your pussy got all red and inflamed.

 

NO, I saw "cold" "ugly", then "river on fire". Can't you read your own post? Or did you have your wife in mind when you wrote that.

 

 

No backtracking from me, you just got so butthurt that someone insulted your shithole of a city that you forgot how to read. At no point did I say "Players won't come here because of the weather". What I said was that the city has no selling points.

 

I have been to Myrtle Beach. From what I could see it was a bigger shithole of a city. Nothing but crappy tourist traps. Nothing much real there except the beach itself...which would have been better off perhaps being left in its natural state, like Cumberland Island.

 

FA's won't come here because we don't win games.

 

HELLO, MCFLY, IS ANYBODY HOME? That is just what the fuck I said....that it is all about poor management and losing. NOT about being cold, ugly and on fire (so which is it: Hot on fire or cold). Jesus H. Fucking Christ. Its like talking to a baby or something.

 

 

That is established. Because of that, we will have to sell our city to them in other ways.

 

NO, we sure the fuck don't. We need to start winning. We need to start having the prospect of winning. Nothing the fuck else matters.

 

Unfortunately, the city sucks and is a veritable diarrhea wasteland..

 

Again, that is just you continuing to practice dumbassery.

 

 

.so our only selling point is that we have more money to offer them. You can bet that Haslam hasn't gotten to where he is by being loose with his money and I doubt things will change now. Therefore, we will have to win with what we have before we can land any really big FA's.

 

 

I'm not saying that these athletes are pussies.

Yes, you are. You are saying that they can't take a little cold weather. That they can't take maybe seeing a panhandler in the street(FYI, I have never in my life seen more panhandlers and human waste on the streets of a city than I saw in San Francisco. You probably think athletes are too pussy to play there as well...can't take a little garbage)

 

I'm saying that they are multimillion dollar athletes that, in some cases, can have up to 32 suitors at a time. Most, if not all, would take a 10-15% smaller contract to play for a perennial contender than take a 10-15% larger contract and play for some shit team on the shores of a crap-factory lake.

 

Your ignorance is bordering on being astonishing. You are showing yourself to be one dumb motherfucker. It hasn't hurt teams from Detroit or Chicago or Green Bay or Toronto to be on the shores of some crap factory lake. They simply have something that Cleveland and Buffalo haven't had: Championship teams. It has nothing to do with the Great Lakes or the snow or any of that bullshit.

 

Any GM that offers a contract that's more than 15% higher than a FA's supposed market value won't be a GM for long. Ask Matt Miller how overpaying for free agents worked out for him.

 

You mean Matt Millen? He was a crap manager. Again, that is the whole problem. Crap management.

 

Pittsburgh is where they are because they have maintained constant success since 1972, when FA was one-tenth of what it is today and players played because they loved the sport. They've had one season in that time where they've won less than 6 games.

 

NO Shit Sherlock. They have had exactly what I have said is needed: competent management, which the Browns etc. have not had.

 

Open your eyes. I'm starting to honestly believe that you truly are suffering from dementia.

 

I think you are the one with dementia. You keep making my argument for me about "needing a winner", needing a tradition. That is my exact point. But then you go off on some silliness about the cold or the water, or the whatthefuckever other irrelevent subject.

It has nothing to do with snow, blight, water, sewage or whatever the hell is in your brain that keeps you from seeing this clearly. You are talking out of your mouth and your ass.

 

It takes winning.

 

What is it about that you don't understand?

[The Gipper]

[

Pittsburgh for a long while now has been THE MODEL for urban renewal because it came from the brink and now sits pretty nicely as far as major cities in the United States are concerned. It's not a shit hole where as Cleveland currently sits in a pretty bad way and it doesn't help that the Browns despite being on the mend aren't exactly winning a bunch of games. You bring up the Pirates and really they aren't much different than the Browns currently. Also a team on the mend, finally starting to right the ship after decades of disappointment. Players just aren't going to want to go to Cleveland unless they're offered more money than their current market value OR the Browns start winning and end up being a destination worth while. Pittsburgh IS NOT the same as Cleveland. The city has already turned the corner, Cleveland has not and still finds it names on the 20 worst list year after year.

 

You wouldn't know a shithole if you landed in one, because you are from one.

 

Some of TC's argument is about Cleveland losing population. Pisstown has lost a greater percentage of populous than Cleveland over the years.

And the only thing Pittsburgh has that Cleveland doesn't is a few winning teams.

 

I did a review of all the factors of some Forbes magazine rating that you refer to. Pittsburgh had maybe two things going for it that Cleveland didn't....and the major one was some winning sports teams.

And in the same comparison I put San Diego up against Cleveland. Cleveland was better in 11 out of 12 categories (things like cost of living, crime, congestion, unemployment, winning sports teams and a few others)....the only one that San Diego had over Cleveland was better winter weather....yet because of it they gave Cleveland the worse grade.

 

So, that is the rub: You and TC are together in the Dumbasses club.

Pittsburgh has done a little better in its sports teams...but falls short in many other categories...yet, Peetown (you say) is the better city.

San Diego has better winter weather yet falls short of Cleveland in 11 categories...yet SD is considered the better city.

Dumbassery.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You have got to be fucking with me, right?

 

There's no way you can actually read the things I'm saying, then "counter" my arguments with the exact same things I'm saying...and then claim that you're the one who proposed the idea.

 

 

Gipper, do us all a favor- stick to your pointless trivia posts that nobody really gives a fuck about and let the people who actually know what they are talking about continue to have conversation, you crazy old motherfucker.

 

 

In order to win, we will have to bring in FA. But in order to bring in FA...we have to win. It's an endless circle, so other factors will have to be introduced. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

 

 

Keep showing pride in the dumpster-city that you don't even live in. You'd think, since it was such a nice place, you'd live there and not in Wadsworth.

 

 

You're saying that I'm making your argument for you about needing a winner, yet that's exactly what was written in my original post and has been stated in every single one of my posts since. You're the one who's pussy is hurt and can't actually read what I'm saying. You're focusing on the fact that I'm calling Cleveland a trashbag and not on what the actual content of my comments are. You are the Cleveland fanbase in a microcosm. You get so riled up when someone says something bad about Cleveland that you immediately get combative and dismissive, even when you're making the same exact points as the other person.

 

 

For instance, I said that a player would rather play for a contender than a shitty team on a lake. You then say "No, look at Detroit or Green Bay. They are winners and they are on a lake. Lakes have nothing to do with it ". The content of the message was that a player would rather play for a contender, yet all you can see is that somehow, somebody insulted Cleveland's lake. The lake had nothing to do with that statement, (although it is a giant toilet), but that's what you picked and that's what you ran with.

 

 

What's even better is that you then just talk yourself in a circle until the other person stops arguing with you, all the while making attacks. You are the epitome of an uninformed debater.

 

 

So, once again, here are the facts. You don't have to agree with them, and I know you won't, but that is immaterial...because they are facts:

 

1. Most FA's want to play for a contender.

2. We are not a contender.

3. Therefore, we have to either 1) sell our city to them or 2) overpay for them

4. Haslam is a successful CEO and knows how to run a business, therefore it is unlikely that he will considerably overpay for them.

5. Therefore it stands to reason that we will not be making a giant splash in FA, as some of you like to think.

 

On a separate, but related, note:

 

1. The city of Cleveland is an AIDS filled dumpster-hole and is the laughingstock of most of the country.

2. It should follow in the footsteps of other cities that have successfully renewed their images such as Indianapolis and, to a lesser extent, Detroit.

3. The city of Cleveland is an AIDS filled dumpster-hole and is the laughingstock of most of the country.

[Erie Dawg]

You have got to be fucking with me, right?

 

There's no way you can actually read the things I'm saying, then "counter" my arguments with the exact same things I'm saying...and then claim that you're the one who proposed the idea.

 

 

Gipper, do us all a favor- stick to your pointless trivia posts that nobody really gives a fuck about and let the people who actually know what they are talking about continue to have conversation, you crazy old motherfucker.

 

 

In order to win, we will have to bring in FA. But in order to bring in FA...we have to win. It's an endless circle, so other factors will have to be introduced. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

 

 

Keep showing pride in the dumpster-city that you don't even live in. You'd think, since it was such a nice place, you'd live there and not in Wadsworth.

 

 

You're saying that I'm making your argument for you about needing a winner, yet that's exactly what was written in my original post and has been stated in every single one of my posts since. You're the one who's pussy is hurt and can't actually read what I'm saying. You're focusing on the fact that I'm calling Cleveland a trashbag and not on what the actual content of my comments are. You are the Cleveland fanbase in a microcosm. You get so riled up when someone says something bad about Cleveland that you immediately get combative and dismissive, even when you're making the same exact points as the other person.

 

 

For instance, I said that a player would rather play for a contender than a shitty team on a lake. You then say "No, look at Detroit or Green Bay. They are winners and they are on a lake. Lakes have nothing to do with it ". The content of the message was that a player would rather play for a contender, yet all you can see is that somehow, somebody insulted Cleveland's lake. The lake had nothing to do with that statement, (although it is a giant toilet), but that's what you picked and that's what you ran with.

 

 

What's even better is that you then just talk yourself in a circle until the other person stops arguing with you, all the while making attacks. You are the epitome of an uninformed debater.

 

 

So, once again, here are the facts. You don't have to agree with them, and I know you won't, but that is immaterial...because they are facts:

 

1. Most FA's want to play for a contender.

2. We are not a contender.

3. Therefore, we have to either 1) sell our city to them or 2) overpay for them

4. Haslam is a successful CEO and knows how to run a business, therefore it is unlikely that he will considerably overpay for them.

5. Therefore it stands to reason that we will not be making a giant splash in FA, as some of you like to think.

 

On a separate, but related, note:

 

1. The city of Cleveland is an AIDS filled dumpster-hole and is the laughingstock of most of the country.

2. It should follow in the footsteps of other cities that have successfully renewed their images such as Indianapolis and, to a lesser extent, Detroit.

3. The city of Cleveland is an AIDS filled dumpster-hole and is the laughingstock of most of the country.

Sooooo we aren't going to sign a free agent or we will?

No matter how you look at it 90% to everyone that signs a free agent overpays. Some one has to offer more than the next to make his offer more appealing. Other than that you have a couple guys that dont care about the $ and nearing retirement and just want to win a s.b.

[Vagitron]

[

 

You wouldn't know a shithole if you landed in one, because you are from one.

 

Some of TC's argument is about Cleveland losing population. Pisstown has lost a greater percentage of populous than Cleveland over the years.

And the only thing Pittsburgh has that Cleveland doesn't is a few winning teams.

 

I did a review of all the factors of some Forbes magazine rating that you refer to. Pittsburgh had maybe two things going for it that Cleveland didn't....and the major one was some winning sports teams.

And in the same comparison I put San Diego up against Cleveland. Cleveland was better in 11 out of 12 categories (things like cost of living, crime, congestion, unemployment, winning sports teams and a few others)....the only one that San Diego had over Cleveland was better winter weather....yet because of it they gave Cleveland the worse grade.

 

So, that is the rub: You and TC are together in the Dumbasses club.

Pittsburgh has done a little better in its sports teams...but falls short in many other categories...yet, Peetown (you say) is the better city.

San Diego has better winter weather yet falls short of Cleveland in 11 categories...yet SD is considered the better city.

Dumbassery.

 

Gipper you're a grumpy old man. Pittsburgh has much more going for it than competitive sports teams. If it didn't you wouldn't have cities like Detroit looking to it as a model for their own revitalization. I personally don't give a damn if you acknowledge that fact or not, it's your choice to remain ignorant/stubborn. Bottom line Pittsburgh came from the brink and now sits pretty nicely as far as major cities are concerned. Cities sure as hell aren't modeling their redevelopment and urban renewal on Cleveland so I guess it's probably more than a couple things were Pittsburgh comes out on top. Stay grumpy Gipper.

 

EDIT: "You are the epitome of an uniformed debater" hits the nail squarely on the head. You do talk yourself in circles and the other person debating just doesn't care to continue. It's at least the case for me when I get in to "discussions" with you. It's mind numbing a majority of the time. Your cheerleaders then come out of hiding and reaffirm your circle talk so you appear the victor. It's a vicious cycle and one I prefer to avoid.