OTA Early Report (Which Means Nothing)

[hoorta]

Just amazes me. Fucking Johnny Manziel is on your team and you can’t stop creaming yourself about Hoyer. The guy has been released a million times. He is your typical journeyman backup. He is not a starter. He is not a franchise QB. He provided a spark to a team that desperately needed one. The offense under Weeden was lifeless. He is a Cleveland native...yes there is a bias there. I would have loved if the Cowboys or Texans would have drafted Manziel. Nonetheless, our Texas boy is in Cleveland and going to do some great things. I want to get on board before it happens...so i can say “i told you so”

 

That would be our point- you wouldn't be on this board if the Browns hadn't drafted JF. Yes we want him to succeed- for the Browns. Let's just say there's a significant portion of this Board that aren't ready to proclaim him the greatest thing since sliced bread and give him the keys to the city just yet.

 

 

You said you are not full of insults, then right afterwards you insult me, lol. I think the Browns didn’t draft your pet QB so now you resent Manziel and get agitated by anyone who shows any exciting over the prospect of him starting. Not only that you have lumped every new member together. You assume and judge too much.

 

I think you guys who followed Manziel over from A&M are the guys with the obsession. Some have been more reasonable than others. Yup- the Browns didn't draft the guy I wanted- and it wasn't a qb. I'm over it. So far, Johnny has made a favorable impression on me saying and doing all the right things- it's been all of two weeks though.

 

 

Here's a thought for the JF fanboys....if he is obviously "NFL ready" starting day one, then why did he not go #1 overall in the draft like Luck? Or like the Colts did, and ditched their previous season to draft him at #1? Or at least picked by Jags @ #3 instead of Bortles? Probably because no one sees him, at this point in time, as ready on day one.

 

I see Hoyer starting in Pittsburgh, and I hope he does well so JF can have more time to prepare rather than see him crash and burn being put out there too early. Seen that show enough already. I agree with everything Zombo said about JF. He was drafted in the 1st round to start eventually, when they feel he's ready. If he's ready on day one and shines...well then awesome that we got an immediate NFL ready QB without having to pick #1 or throw a season to get there.

 

If Hoyer is starting and doing great, with JF learning and knowing he's good enough to be starter someday and do great as well...what a fantastic QB situation to finally have in Cleveland.

 

If JF eventually beats out Hoyer but it's proven that Hoyer is still a capable QB...what a fantastic QB situation to finally have in Cleveland.

 

Put Thigpen's name in place anywhere above and ditto on the outcome. And then you even have a decent #3 QB somewhere in the mix as well? Must be nice.

 

Exactly- the professional talent evaluators apparently thought less of JF than his fan club does. GMs have been been wrong in the past Rodgers, Montana, and Brady being the most glaring examples. If JF was as good as his fan club thinks he is, the Texans would either flat out drafted him #1 overall, or taken an RGIII type deal- it didn't happen. BTW, for the fanboys, the Browns supposedly offered the Colts their entire draft for Andrew Luck and got turned down.

 

It is really getting close to time to cull some of the new crop...

 

Training camp and preseason haven't even started yet.

[Tour2ma]

So many hurt egos.

So little to contribute...

[cambridgeho]

So little to contribute...

Greg

[cambridgeho]

Legs kicked up, loving Hawaii. Been here for a week and you're still bitter.

 

Cheers

Hell ya, have you seen any us coast guard floating around? I have been trying to get there for 12 years now. Have fun!

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Exactly- the professional talent evaluators apparently thought less of JF than his fan club does. GMs have been been wrong in the past Rodgers, Montana, and Brady being the most glaring examples. If JF was as good as his fan club thinks he is, the Texans would either flat out drafted him #1 overall, or taken an RGIII type deal- it didn't happen. BTW, for the fanboys, the Browns supposedly offered the Colts their entire draft for Andrew Luck and got turned down.

 

 

Training camp and preseason haven't even started yet.

 

If Rodgers was as good as he's proven to be, the San Francisco 49ers would have taken him #1 overall.

If Montana was as good as he proved to be, the Buffalo Bills would have taken him #1 overall.

If Brady was as good as he's proven to be, the Cleveland Browns would have taken him #1 overall.

 

The professional talent evaluators got those picks wrong. How can you take their word as gospel on Manziel, yet willingly admit they aren't perfect?

 

 

By the way, the guys who are professionals all had to start somewhere. They weren't born into their roles. There's not much that separates them from some of us, other than they know exactly what their respective coaches value. We, unfortunately, aren't privy to what is discussed behind closed doors.

[Tour2ma]

Legs kicked up, loving Hawaii. Been here for a week and you're still bitter.

And you're still deluded in Mikeyland...

 

Hawaii is great... been there... and hitched a ride back on a ship, the USS Comstock. Try getting a ticket on that ride.

 

I was wrong about one thing. When you said you'd not return to the board after your Hawaiian adventure, I said you be back.

 

Turns out you never left... such drama... truly pathetic.

[cambridgeho]

Have seen a coastie helo, but it's mostly squids everywhere. Love it here.

 

Are you active duty CG?

Yes, over 12 yrs

[TexasAg1969]

hoota-"Johnny has made a favorable impression on me saying and doing all the right things- it's been all of two weeks though."

Don't be fooled. That isn't him yet. The one we know takes a big shot, jumps up in the hitter's face and tells him it damn sure ain't over yet. Then he gets that TD and writes an autograph for the hitter in the air and gets flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. He's brash and unafraid. That will help this team more than anything else in the long run.

[D Bone]

I think as an outsider, i came here thinking you guys were excited about the teams direction and instead there is an overall negative vibe. That has been a little surprising

 

The negative vibe stems from us real Browns fans that now have to endure the onslaught of Johnny Football fans, and everything that goes with it. We Browns fans don't care who's under center, as much as we care about winning. Hell, if you tell me JF never takes a snap for the Browns in the regular season because whatever QB that is starting is winning, I wouldn't give a second crap about JF. I hope for the Browns sake JF becomes the QB that all the Johnny lovers preach he will be, but only time will tell.

 

Go Browns, not Go Johnny.

[miktoxic]

hawaii blows, literally.

[Taco918]

 

I guess i dont understand the Browns mentality of i dont care who the QB is when the reason you are losing so much is because of who the starting QB is. Its like you guys dont understand what it takes to win in the NFL. Its like saying, i want to lose weight and i dont care how. Well losing weight it pretty easy, stop eating so much and exercise. Its not rocket science. Get a franchise QB = you win. I honestly believe most of you guys wouldnt know what a franchise QB looked liked if it smacked you in the face...and it has. You have been force feed shit so long you think everything tastes like shit.

No I don't think your getting this. We don't give a shit who the QB is, we just want them to win. The QB that does come in and win we will support. We've heard enough of the hype from the assumed "savior" (whether it be Couch, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden etc) that we're going to reserve our praise for a QB who actually produces, hence the reason so many here are cool with Hoyer starting the season (all he's done in a Browns uni is win.) Am I, and most of us rooting for Manziel to succeed? Of course, but we're not falling head over heels for the guy just because we drafted him. We've been down this road before. We hope for the best but expect the worst.

 

Does that make more sense?

[hoorta]

 

If Rodgers was as good as he's proven to be, the San Francisco 49ers would have taken him #1 overall.

If Montana was as good as he proved to be, the Buffalo Bills would have taken him #1 overall.

If Brady was as good as he's proven to be, the Cleveland Browns would have taken him #1 overall.

 

The professional talent evaluators got those picks wrong. How can you take their word as gospel on Manziel, yet willingly admit they aren't perfect?

 

 

By the way, the guys who are professionals all had to start somewhere. They weren't born into their roles. There's not much that separates them from some of us, other than they know exactly what their respective coaches value. We, unfortunately, aren't privy to what is discussed behind closed doors.

 

I never said I did- I've said elsewhere that objectively- JF wasn't in the the #1 overall franchise qb- in anyone's eyes. Well then TC- you had damn better hope about 8 other teams were dead wrong on Manziel- how's that for some reverse spin. Those guys break down 100s of hours of game film- that's their damn job- unlike the rest of us that have to work for a living at other professions.

 

 

hoota-"Johnny has made a favorable impression on me saying and doing all the right things- it's been all of two weeks though."

Don't be fooled. That isn't him yet. The one we know takes a big shot, jumps up in the hitter's face and tells him it damn sure ain't over yet. Then he gets that TD and writes an autograph for the hitter in the air and gets flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. He's brash and unafraid. That will help this team more than anything else in the long run.

 

It will help make guys like Joey Porter even more happy to be the first to lay a lick on Manziel that will get him carted off the field. With the notoriety, comes the target Ag. Manziel's is the biggest I can think of in recent memory- don't think BountyGate changed anything- teams will just be a hell of a lot more discreet about it. You can get away with crap like that in college- this is the NFL- the No Fun League. Pettine will warn him the first time the penalty happens, and bench him the second.

 

 

Of course i wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Manziel. I don’t know why that matters and why i need to apologize for that. Obsessed about Manziel? Sure, but i am obsessive about football matters in general. I would argue that most fans that post on message boards are on the obsessive side.

 

I am on game 14 i think, the Patriot game...i am trying to see from a Browns perspective. Trying to learn the team. Hell i just realized yesterday that Ward wasn’t on the team anymore, guy was a big playmaker last season.

 

I think as an outsider, i came here thinking you guys were excited about the teams direction and instead there is an overall negative vibe. That has been a little surprising but it’s probably similar to many of us old Cowboy fans that have grown frustrated and cynical. I think for me players like Manziel make football fun to watch. Being a football fan is suppose to be fun.

 

Read the SI article with JF on the cover. The local Cleveland paper ran a poll and 76% of the responders didn't want Manziel with the #4 pick. Cowboy's frustration isn't even in the same universe as the Browns. I posted earlier in this thread a picture of a guy wearing a jersey with the Brown's busted qbs since 1999. Some of us go way farther back than that. Hello- 2014 is the 50th anniversary of the last Browns Championship- so do the math on how old you'd have to be to remember it. and FWIW I do.

 

I'll give you credit if you want to learn about the team, but understand some of the old guys caution- we've been let down dozens of times by "the next great thing". Great college stats? Check. See McCoy, Colt. Heisman winner? One thing you'll learn in a hurry here is a bunch of us are also serious Ohio State fans- so we know a thing or two about college football. In my case all the way back to the days of John Brockington, Jack Tatum & Woody Hayes. "Only two- time Heisman Winner, Archie Griffin". That didn't work out so well in the pros. OSU would have won at least a couple more National titles if John Cooper was 1\2 as good a gameday coach as he was a recruiter.

 

Cleveland is a very "pure" football city- plain helmets- you want to get trashed in a hurry- just suggest putting a logo on the helmets, and we don't have cheerleaders either- anti-Dallas. How the Manziel flash will work out here remains to be seen.

[hoorta]

 

I guess i dont understand the Browns mentality of i dont care who the QB is when the reason you are losing so much is because of who the starting QB is. Its like you guys dont understand what it takes to win in the NFL. Its like saying, i want to lose weight and i dont care how. Well losing weight it pretty easy, stop eating so much and exercise. It’s not rocket science. Get a franchise QB = you win. I honestly believe most of you guys wouldnt know what a franchise QB looked liked if it smacked you in the face...and it has. You have been force feed shit so long you think everything tastes like shit.

 

Wrong- we do know what a franchise qb looks like. And we certainly do know what it takes to win in the NFL. Yes, there's some homer rose colored glasses stuff going on- to a fault. You missed out on the discussions where guys like franchise qbs Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler have won Super Bowls.

 

And, we've been down this road before- regarding "true franchise quarterbacks". In the NFL they're a rare breed, about one every 3 years on the average.

[cdl15]

That's what's sad.

 

2 starts, 7 TD's and 6 INT's makes an "entrenched starter" in Cleveland. Guys are singing his praises.

 

It's part of what makes Cleveland a laughingstock.

 

Call me crazy, but that's shitty QB play all around the board and it's not something to be excited over.

 

I like Hoyer. As I said before, he's one of two QB's that gave me the "he's got this" feeling. But Jesus, the way some people talk about him here, you'd think he was Tom Fucking Brady.

3-0 Worked for me without a sniff of a running game. And I was against hoyer from the git

[Tour2ma]

Don't be fooled. That isn't him yet. The one we know takes a big shot, jumps up in the hitter's face and tells him it damn sure ain't over yet. Then he gets that TD and writes an autograph for the hitter in the air and gets flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. He's brash and unafraid. That will help this team more than anything else in the long run.

"Brash and unafraid" (or thoughtless and immature)... In one post you've capsulized our (or at least my) two worst JM fears: big shot(s) and thoughtless actions that hurt the team.

 

1. NFL shots a bigger than college shots. Yes, even bigger than SEC shots.

2. When he gets flagged he'll get an earful from Pettine, just as he did from Sumlin, except potentially with a seat as part of the deal. That kind of antic is what Johnny pulls in the heat of a close game. Just the circumstance where self-control is demanded. Just the circumstance where that Unsportsmanlike Conduct flag will hurt the most. So when we kick off from our 20 and the opponent kicks a 55 yard FG two plays later as time expires for the win, while you Johnny-boys revel in his game tying TD, we Browns fans will curse him for costing us the game...

 

And then this board will get really interesting...

 

 

Of course i wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Manziel. I don’t know why that matters and why i need to apologize for that.

 

I am on game 14 i think, the Patriot game...

 

... i came here thinking you guys were excited about the teams direction and instead there is an overall negative vibe.

Good post.. truly... well reasoned for the most part... and kudos for watching the 2013 games.

 

As you say you've no need to apologize for any of your views, but you have gone beyond defending them in some posts and at times your JM "fanaticism" has kept you from recognizing what others are saying. Case in point is your "an overall negative vibe" comment. IMO that simply is not the case... As a group we are as optimistic as I have seen for the direction of the team. Where we fail you is by a lack of universal enthusiasm for JM now and forever, and the percentage of us who reject your insistences that he is "the one". I think you conflate the two.

 

3-0 Worked for me without a sniff of a running game.

I like Hoyer as well, but we have to give up the 3-0 thing. Brian was hurt very early in the Buffalo game, so 2-0 is more representative of his record as a Browns starter.

[calfoxwc]

The way Hoyer sparked life into the offense tells the truth about

him being the valid option to start the season.

 

Manziel has a lot to learn, and a lot to observe before he takes

the reins.

 

The Browns would have been better off not starting Tim Couch

with an expansion team. It was a disaster, a veteran would have

had a lot of experience in his arsenal to help him try to make

the offense work.

 

It just isn't necessary to start Manziel too soon. Enough already.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

The way Hoyer sparked life into the offense tells the truth about

him being the valid option to start the season.

 

Manziel has a lot to learn, and a lot to observe before he takes

the reins.

 

The Browns would have been better off not starting Tim Couch

with an expansion team. It was a disaster, a veteran would have

had a lot of experience in his arsenal to help him try to make

the offense work.

 

It just isn't necessary to start Manziel too soon. Enough already.

You act like starting Hoyer results in guaranteed wins.

[miktoxic]

You act like starting Hoyer results in guaranteed wins.

 

so i guess you are leading the anti-hoyer campaign?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

so i guess you are leading the anti-hoyer campaign?

No, I'm leading the "There's no such thing as a guaranteed win" campaign.

 

The reasoning behind "it's better to sit Manziel and let Hoyer take the reigns " is often flawed.

 

Truth is, we don't know what's better. Just because it's logical that a rookie should sit doesn't make it applicable.

 

Even if Manziel gives us a 1% better chance of winning, he should start. Same goes for every player, at every position, no matter their level of experience.

 

The common misconception is that "we can just start Hoyer and then plug in Manziel when he's comfortable" like Hoyer will just magically shell out wins and be the franchise QB he has shown zero signs of being. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

 

It all comes down to scheme fit, athletic ability and what you contribute to the teams success. If we want to start players based solely off experience and nothing else, younger players would never see the field until older players retired.

 

And if we wanted to start players based solely on experience, Skrine would start over Gilbert, Pinkston would start over Bitonio, Bennett would start over Miles Austin, and Thigpen over Manziel.

[Tour2ma]

You act like starting Hoyer results in guaranteed wins.

Sigh...

 

Maybe right now cal, and all us "Hoyer-lovin'-Manziel-hating-schlubs", just think Hoyer gives us the best chance to win.

 

It could be that simple...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Sigh...

 

Maybe right now cal, and all us "Hoyer-lovin'-Manziel-hating-schlubs", just think Hoyer gives us the best chance to win.

 

It could be that simple...

It could be. But, outside of you, I've yet to hear anyone specifically say why they think this way or what drives them to that feeling.

 

It's frustrating when people have opinions that they can't back up with anything other than "WINS, DUDE".

 

Rational football talk makes everyone better, in my opinion.

[miktoxic]

No, I'm leading the "There's no such thing as a guaranteed win" campaign.

 

The reasoning behind "it's better to sit Manziel and let Hoyer take the reigns " is often flawed.

 

Truth is, we don't know what's better. Just because it's logical that a rookie should sit doesn't make it applicable.

 

Even if Manziel gives us a 1% better chance of winning, he should start. Same goes for every player, at every position, no matter their level of experience.

 

The common misconception is that "we can just start Hoyer and then plug in Manziel when he's comfortable" like Hoyer will just magically shell out wins and be the franchise QB he has shown zero signs of being. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

 

It all comes down to scheme fit, athletic ability and what you contribute to the teams success. If we want to start players based solely off experience and nothing else, younger players would never see the field until older players retired.

 

And if we wanted to start players based solely on experience, Skrine would start over Gilbert, Pinkston would start over Bitonio, Bennett would start over Miles Austin, and Thigpen over Manziel.

 

well cal might be the only person who feels that way...........right now. sure it might be prudent to sit manziel for HIS own good

 

BUT

 

give it a couple of weeks into training camp and let the presses/media roll with whoever is the darling at each position and i'm sure some minds will get changed not only with us fans but with the coaches as well.

 

nothing is set in stone.

[runyon27]

It could be. But, outside of you, I've yet to hear anyone specifically say why they think this way or what drives them to that feeling.

 

It's frustrating when people have opinions that they can't back up with anything other than "WINS, DUDE".

 

Rational football talk makes everyone better, in my opinion.

I dont care who starts, but whoever gives us the best chance to win should be the starter. If its Hoyer I am fine with that, same with Manziel. However, Manziel has to prove he is ready, which I am betting comes are some point whether its week 1 this yr or maybe as later as next yr. Would be great for once to have more than one capable QB on the roster.

[Canton Mike]

I dont care who starts, but whoever gives us the best chance to win should be the starter. If its Hoyer I am fine with that, same with Manziel. However, Manziel has to prove he is ready, which I am betting comes are some point whether its week 1 this yr or maybe as later as next yr. Would be great for once to have more than one capable QB on the roster.

 

Very well said. I am starting to think we just may have 3 QBs who are ALL better than the best we had available to end the season last year. Quite a turn around.

 

Mike

[HoundDawg]

Sigh...Maybe right now cal, and all us "Hoyer-lovin'-Manziel-hating-schlubs", just think Hoyer gives us the best chance to win.It could be that simple...

Fancy that. Some of us would like to give the last guy to actually win two games in a row the benefit of the doubt. No one said he was doing it all by himself, either. What he did do was elevate the level of play of the whole team. I was in the stadium that Thursday night against Buffalo. The mood was electric going into that game. It wasn't just me that felt that way. When he went down you could literally feel the collective deflation.

It's frustrating when people have opinions that they can't back up with anything other than "WINS, DUDE".

Rational football talk makes everyone better, in my opinion.

. Why is it so difficult to understand? WINS. Isn't that what we are all looking for? Forgive me for thinking that was the whole fuckin point.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Fancy that. Some of us would like to give the last guy to actually win two games in a row the benefit of the doubt. No one said he was doing it all by himself, either. What he did do was elevate the level of play of the whole team. I was in the stadium that Thursday night against Buffalo. The mood was electric going into that game. It wasn't just me that felt that way. When he went down you could literally feel the collective deflation.. Why is it so difficult to understand? WINS. Isn't that what we are all looking for? Forgive me for thinking that was the whole fuckin point.

Oh man, it's that easy? Well fuck, I wish I knew that.

 

The Browns will win every game next year. Boom. Done. That was fucking easy.

 

Dumbass.

[hoorta]

"Brash and unafraid" (or thoughtless and immature)... In one post you've capsulized our (or at least my) two worst JM fears: big shot(s) and thoughtless actions that hurt the team.

 

1. NFL shots a bigger than college shots. Yes, even bigger than SEC shots.

2. When he gets flagged he'll get an earful from Pettine, just as he did from Sumlin, except potentially with a seat as part of the deal. That kind of antic is what Johnny pulls in the heat of a close game. Just the circumstance where self-control is demanded. Just the circumstance where that Unsportsmanlike Conduct flag will hurt the most. So when we kick off from our 20 and the opponent kicks a 55 yard FG two plays later as time expires for the win, while you Johnny-boys revel in his game tying TD, we Browns fans will curse him for costing us the game...

 

And then this board will get really interesting...

 

 

Good post.. truly... well reasoned for the most part... and kudos for watching the 2013 games.

 

As you say you've no need to apologize for any of your views, but you have gone beyond defending them in some posts and at times your JM "fanaticism" has kept you from recognizing what others are saying. Case in point is your "an overall negative vibe" comment. IMO that simply is not the case... As a group we are as optimistic as I have seen for the direction of the team. Where we fail you is by a lack of universal enthusiasm for JM now and forever, and the percentage of us who reject your insistences that he is "the one". I think you conflate the two.

 

I like Hoyer as well, but we have to give up the 3-0 thing. Brian was hurt very early in the Buffalo game, so 2-0 is more representative of his record as a Browns starter.

 

Ah he is "THE ONE" start calling him Neo instead. But regarding the hits- a little personal aside. Went to HS with a guy you've probably never heard of Larry Zelina- wound up being the starting tailback behind Brockington @ Ohio State- LOL I got to see what 4.4 speed looks like up close and personal playing against him in a basketball game. Anyway, Larry got a tryout with the Browns- and promptly got his knee destroyed in training camp. His comment afterwards? I got hit hard a few times in college (and one of his teammates was "The Assassin" Jack Tatum) but when I got to the Browns every hit was a hard hit.

 

You act like starting Hoyer results in guaranteed wins.

 

Hey, WW says 16-0 with JF, and the Super Bowl. Nope TC the Nattering Nabob of Negativity in me says is doesn't matter who we start- we're looking at 0-3 out of the gate. Start Manziel, and he doesn't make it to the bye in one piece.

 

LeBeau 15-2 against rookie starters, care to bet the ranch on JF in the opener?

[Kennel Club]

I would love to read Lumbergh's thoughts on this topic.

[ballpeen]

Hoorta is the fun police

 

It literally kills me how much he can't stand Manziel but polices every thread, and a has a rebuttal for every positive Manziel post. I'm not sure if he's a real beer drinking Browns fan who loves football and excitement or just a jealous 17 year old girlfriend. Either way, who gives a shit. Manziel is the king of Cleveland and it makes him insecure. Let's rage and kick Big Ben's ass week 1

We ARE Johnny Football.

 

Embrace it.

[calfoxwc]

nah, it's just spring - *some* fans' cabin fever prompts them

to frolic amidst the wild flowers in rage....

 

But Mr. Hoorta is not bitter. Never rageous. Not even outrageous.

 

Most all of us, mehbe even you and walter, are surely far different in real life

than online, like Brad Paisley's song.

 

Manziel has the "it" we've been missing ...but shoving him into prime time before

he knows the playbook doesn't sound smart, that's all.