Film Study on Hoyer

[PurplePantyWaste]

As prompted by Tour, I'm going back through the NFL Game Rewind App Coach Study Feature to address Brian Hoyer's game. I'm going to highlight the following concepts, followed by 3 (if available) plays that portray the specific claim: Hoyer's Accuracy Towards the Sideline on Comeback and Out routes, Hoyer's inaccuracy throwing up the middle especially while pressured, Hoyer making good decisions on broken plays, and Hoyer being overly hesitant against certain coverages and pressures in efforts to avoid turning the ball over.

 

 

1.) Hoyer's Accuracy Towards the sideline on Comeback and Out Routes

 

Example A. Week 7 @ Jacksonville. 55 seconds left in the 1st half, it's 3rd down. 3 receivers on the right, Travis Benjamin is all alone on the left. Hoyer recognizes single high safety man coverage, they send 6 rushers and Hoyer has 6 guys blocking. The right side of the line gets pushed back almost immediately, but Hoyer just slides a little, focused on where he basically decided to throw before the ball was hiked. He gives Travis time to run his route and delivers this beauty - (click to enlarge image)

 

 

 

Only for Travis to drop it thus stalling the drive.

 

Here's one where Hoyer rolls left and throws back to the right, usually a no no but he shows great touch on these passes usually and this one he threads the needle in tight coverage. Here's the start point

 

 

 

And here's the best view I have of the finish (some wires got in the way of the shot but you get the idea)

 

 

 

It's hard to get any good views, but the out route is a big staple in this offense and Hoyer is very effective at it.

 

2.) Hoyer's inaccuracy throwing up middle, especially when pressured.

 

Here's an easy one, missing Cameron wide open for an easy touchdown.

 

 

 

Here's an example of not being able to adjust for a players speed, or the timing being off, either way he misses slant and drags routes like this frequently:

 

 

 

Now here, at Tour's request, is an example of a great pass down the middle in which his left foot doesn't extend farther left than 11:00.

 

 

 

 

Resulting in this:

 

 

 

Slants are hit or miss, a couple of his ints have been on errant slant routes. I've seen several like the following play where he misses terribly on seam routes and they almost get picked:

 

 

 

 

 

This happens a lot.

 

Hoyer being overly cautious

 

Here's the example I posted earlier:

 

 

 

While there was pressure in his face, Hoyer had an opportunity to turn this play into a touchdown. That's a snipit of right before the opportunity emerges, and Hoyer still has time as he's extending out to the sideline. Here's a few seconds later:

 

 

 

While the throw would have been a bit altered and difficult with the defenders in his face, there was plenty of room. The underneath defender didn't move, the other defender near the sideline was far away and more focused on his receiver. To me this was the time to take a chance, being down to a lesser team late into the first half, you gotta try and grab momentum, and this while not an easy throw is a throw a professional qb has to make. It's a medium risk high reward kind of throw, one that I don't see Hoyer attempt very often. I don't think there would have been a high chance of a turnover, probably a 70% chance it gets there and caught, 25% chance it doesn't quite make it or just is off a bit and falls incomplete, and like a 5% chance it gets tipped and picked (or a reaaaaally bad throw and it gets picked.)

 

 

He tends to overthrow a lot, which is better than under throwing I guess but I don't think it's an overthrow because he's just putting too much on it, he's more mentally overcompensating to make sure he doesn't underthrow and ends up going from one extreme to the other. can't prove this with film but it's what it looks like to me.

 

Got some more to copy and paste over from word, but gonna go eat dinner, then finish.

[PlaygroundLegend]

Terrible spot to throw a ball to a 5'10 WR

[PurplePantyWaste]

Terrible spot to throw a ball to a 5'10 WR

 

With all due respect I wholeheartedly disagree. That ball placement lets him extend for the ball and gives him a better chance at catching it. A lower pass is easier for a Cornerback to break up in this instance as he can reach his arms around - placing the ball up high means the defender has to also elevate to reach the ball, which is hard to do in a split second reaction.

 

If there was more separation it's a different story and a lower throw.

 

That was the correct pre-play read for the coverage IMO as well.

[Tour2ma]

Purple... please, note his stride, if you would.

 

What I have noticed is that if Hoyer can stride towards his target with left foot at worst at 11 o'clock in relation to his right his accuracy is high and his throws have authority. However, if he flies open, steps left of 11 o'clock accuracy falls dramatically and power dissipates as well.

[RoyceRolls]

Terrible spot to throw a ball to a 5'10 WR

What was hoyer thinking hitting a receiver in both hands with the football, what a noob...

[Ibleedbrown]

Ha, dig the new name. That's what you get for being so nice.

 

But digging the breakdown so far. The whole passes up the middle thing is troubling. But now that you mention it l recall a few passes up the middle that were behind the receiver. Like Hoyer isn't properly accounting for their speed. Mostly on crossing routes.

[nickers]

What was hoyer thinking hitting a receiver in both hands with the football, what a noob...

hes a poster on the other board too.. Cut him some slack.. he's not a bad kid..just a we bit of a manziel fag...

[PlaygroundLegend]

lol.. Nickers.. Im one of the orignals here you know that. I just come back and visit every now and then to spread some love.

[RoyceRolls]

I don't think he's a bad guy at all, I was just agreeing with him. The hands is a terrible place to hit a receiver, especially one who is 5'10"

[nickers]

lol.. Nickers.. Im one of the orignals here you know that. I just come back and visit every now and then to spread some love.

 

Somehow, I always get you and Poetic, as one and the same LOL. all good bro...We all want the same thing.. I'm still hungover from Saturday night and My dyslexic eyesight kill's Me. been in severe sciatica (pain) since last Tuesday and the asshole dr's want Me to wait till the 9th just to get seen.. I'm about to rip them a new asshole if they don't see Me sooner.. I can barely walk at times.. carry on...

[PurplePantyWaste]

Ha, dig the new name. That's what you get for being so nice.

 

But digging the breakdown so far. The whole passes up the middle thing is troubling. But now that you mention it l recall a few passes up the middle that were behind the receiver. Like Hoyer isn't properly accounting for their speed. Mostly on crossing routes.

Yeah, same game against Jags he way behind receiver on seam route up middle.

I've seen a lot of routes thrown behind receivers too.

 

Eh, I've been called worse

[PurplePantyWaste]

Purple... please, note his stride, if you would.

 

What I have noticed is that if Hoyer can stride towards his target with left foot at worst at 11 o'clock in relation to his right his accuracy is high and his throws have authority. However, if he flies open, steps left of 11 o'clock accuracy falls dramatically and power dissipates as well.

Noticing this, as well as lots of leaning back as he throws accounting for a lot of his under throws

[The Gipper]

I didn't do any kind of a breakdown, I am just going by what I saw, and what I saw was a 20 for 50 performance.

 

Of the 30 incomplete passes I suspect that at least 5 (or more) were out and out dropped balls by the receiver (Austin had two in a row at one point), another 5 were good throws that were just well defended by the opponent, and about 15 were just inaccurate throws....with maybe a few miscommunications thrown in.

Does this sound about right?

 

Though, check this out: it seems to show that the Browns are one of the best in the NFL at not dropping the ball, but they did Sunday:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/329/cleveland-browns/#Points%20per%20Game$SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990

[Tour2ma]

Noticing this, as well as lots of leaning back as he throws accounting for a lot of his under throws

Thanks... backfoot is kinda the ultimate fly-open, anti-stride.

 

It's not that backfoot throws don't hurt any QB's accuracy, but when you don't have excess arm strength to compensate...

 

 

One more thing if you could...

Please, along with the stride note how much pressure was being applied. Second half of my "theory" is that sometimes the pressure is real, and other times not so much...

[tiamat63]

Calling Benji 5'10 is being generous.

[lodilobo]

I didn't do any kind of a breakdown, I am just going by what I saw, and what I saw was a 20 for 50 performance.

 

Of the 30 incomplete passes I suspect that at least 5 (or more) were out and out dropped balls by the receiver (Austin had two in a row at one point), another 5 were good throws that were just well defended by the opponent, and about 15 were just inaccurate throws....with maybe a few miscommunications thrown in.

Does this sound about right?

 

Though, check this out: it seems to show that the Browns are one of the best in the NFL at not dropping the ball, but they did Sunday:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/329/cleveland-browns/#Points%20per%20Game$SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990

How many of those 30 incompletes were desperation throws near the end, hoping for a miracle?

[PurplePantyWaste]

Thanks... backfoot is kinda the ultimate fly-open, anti-stride.

 

It's not that backfoot throws don't hurt any QB's accuracy, but when you don't have excess arm strength to compensate...

 

 

One more thing if you could...

Please, along with the stride note how much pressure was being applied. Second half of my "theory" is that sometimes the pressure is real, and other times not so much...

 

Will look for this.

 

Here's an example of what I in the other thread referred to as "playing scared", better way of saying it, just being overly cautious.

 

First examine the picture:

 

 

 

While there was pressure in his face, Hoyer had an opportunity to turn this play into a touchdown. That's a snipit of right before the opportunity emerges, and Hoyer still has time as he's extending out to the sideline. Here's a few seconds later:

 

 

 

While the throw would have been a bit altered and difficult with the defenders in his face, there was plenty of room. The underneath defender didn't move, the other defender near the sideline was far away and more focused on his receiver. To me this was the time to take a chance, being down to a lesser team late into the first half, you gotta try and grab momentum, and this while not an easy throw is a throw a professional qb has to make. It's a medium risk high reward kind of throw, one that I don't see Hoyer attempt very often. I don't think there would have been a high chance of a turnover, probably a 70% chance it gets there and caught, 25% chance it doesn't quite make it or just is off a bit and falls incomplete, and like a 5% chance it gets tipped and picked (or a reaaaaally bad throw and it gets picked.)

 

Still working on the rest...I've given up watching each game, I'm just going throw all the bad ones and a couple of the good ones. Should be up late tonight.

[Opal312]

If you criticize Hoyer, you're a hater and Manziel fan. If you say anything negative about the play calling or coaching decisions then you get called juvenile names. You can't critique anything about the Browns without being lambasted! The Browns are perfect. Coach Pettine is the best coach in the NFL. Hoyer makes Tom Brady look like Brandon Weeden. he has the strongest most accurate arm in the league. The defense is reminiscent of the '85 Bears. Isaiah Crowell will be the next Jim Brown.

What kind of Forum is this anyway.

I suppose most of you are under 18 anyway and never suffered "The Drive", "The Fumble", Sipe throwing an interception in the end zone (I was at that game) when all we needed was a field goal sending Oakland to the Super Bowl.

This Board reminds me of living in La La land where everyone agrees with the majority and drinks the grape Kool-aid while swallowing the blue pill.

[Ibleedbrown]

If you criticize Hoyer, you're a hater and Manziel fan. If you say anything negative about the play calling or coaching decisions then you get called juvenile names. You can't critique anything about the Browns without being lambasted! The Browns are perfect. Coach Pettine is the best coach in the NFL. Hoyer makes Tom Brady look like Brandon Weeden. he has the strongest most accurate arm in the league. The defense is reminiscent of the '85 Bears. Isaiah Crowell will be the next Jim Brown.

What kind of Forum is this anyway.

I suppose most of you are under 18 anyway and never suffered "The Drive", "The Fumble", Sipe throwing an interception in the end zone (I was at that game) when all we needed was a field goal sending Oakland to the Super Bowl.

This Board reminds me of living in La La land where everyone agrees with the majority and drinks the grape Kool-aid while swallowing the blue pill.

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis? I was with you until you ended with the Jim Jones/Viagra thing.

 

Were you trying for a different thread? This one's kinda middle of the road. Breaking down QB play and whatever stray cats strut in.

 

I never got the impression there was an overabundance of agreement here.

[WinstonLegthigh]

If you criticize Hoyer, you're a hater and Manziel fan. If you say anything negative about the play calling or coaching decisions then you get called juvenile names. You can't critique anything about the Browns without being lambasted! The Browns are perfect. Coach Pettine is the best coach in the NFL. Hoyer makes Tom Brady look like Brandon Weeden. he has the strongest most accurate arm in the league. The defense is reminiscent of the '85 Bears. Isaiah Crowell will be the next Jim Brown.

What kind of Forum is this anyway.

I suppose most of you are under 18 anyway and never suffered "The Drive", "The Fumble", Sipe throwing an interception in the end zone (I was at that game) when all we needed was a field goal sending Oakland to the Super Bowl.

This Board reminds me of living in La La land where everyone agrees with the majority and drinks the grape Kool-aid while swallowing the blue pill.

This seems far from the truth, I see plenty of critiques on this board. But there is a big difference between real deserved criticism and complete over reaction (something we browns fans are known for). I will criticize every aspect of this team from owner, FO, coaching, O, D and special teams, when it is deserved. I see many on this board do the same. I see some on here with complete over reaction and almost hatred for certain players, and when we are having the best season and probably best team we have had since 99 it can get very irritating.

[ElkDawg]

Hoyer needs to get his act together and fast. if not we may see a rookie real soon.

[WalterWhite]

Here is a great article breaking down all of Hoyers recent struggles.

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2272604-breaking-down-brian-hoyers-recent-struggles-within-the-browns-offense

[tiamat63]

B/R articles.... I think my 6 year old nephew could compose better information.

[bbedward]

The B/R article isn't too bad. Anybody care to note the box count on them? Stockton maybe? It doesn't look like they're stacking against the run to me - as I've said over and over. But maybe they did on every play aside from those 3 idk.

 

It only covers 3, which isn't enough to get the whole picture of what happened though.

[StocktonShorts]

The B/R article isn't too bad. Anybody care to note the box count on them? Stockton maybe? It doesn't look like they're stacking against the run to me - as I've said over and over. But maybe they did on every play aside from those 3 idk.

 

It only covers 3, which isn't enough to get the whole picture of what happened though.

Well on plays 1 and 3 it was 3rd and long and we were in the shotgun, so it'd be weird if the Texans were playing run there.

 

On play 2 its 2nd and 11 we're in a 2TE 2WR spread and you can clearly see theyre playing a 5-2 (run defense) and only dropping 1 back and the other safety is spying the backfield (for the run). They never once step backwards, they're not scared of anything going over top of them.

 

 

Keep trying.

[bbedward]

Well on plays 1 and 3 it was 3rd and long and we were in the shotgun, so it'd be weird if the Texans were playing run there.

 

On play 2 its 2nd and 11 we're in a 2TE 2WR spread and you can clearly see theyre playing a 5-2 (run defense) and only dropping 1 back and the other safety is spying the backfield (for the run). They never once step backwards, they're not scared of anything going over top of them.

 

 

Keep trying.

Grab the 30 inconpletions and find the % they loaded up. I bet it's maybe 15-20% of plays there's 7+ in the box. Cincinnati did it more than anybody.

 

Even in that 7 man box, they only rushed 4.

 

And if there's anything they should be scared of it's Hoyer going 15+, which is a stat where he was #1 in going into Sunday. The issue has been short-intermediate stuff

[hoorta]

If you criticize Hoyer, you're a hater and Manziel fan. If you say anything negative about the play calling or coaching decisions then you get called juvenile names. You can't critique anything about the Browns without being lambasted! The Browns are perfect. Coach Pettine is the best coach in the NFL. Hoyer makes Tom Brady look like Brandon Weeden. he has the strongest most accurate arm in the league. The defense is reminiscent of the '85 Bears. Isaiah Crowell will be the next Jim Brown.

What kind of Forum is this anyway.

I suppose most of you are under 18 anyway and never suffered "The Drive", "The Fumble", Sipe throwing an interception in the end zone (I was at that game) when all we needed was a field goal sending Oakland to the Super Bowl.

This Board reminds me of living in La La land where everyone agrees with the majority and drinks the grape Kool-aid while swallowing the blue pill.

 

Don't think that's the deal at all.

 

This seems far from the truth, I see plenty of critiques on this board. But there is a big difference between real deserved criticism and complete over reaction (something we browns fans are known for). I will criticize every aspect of this team from owner, FO, coaching, O, D and special teams, when it is deserved. I see many on this board do the same. I see some on here with complete over reaction and almost hatred for certain players, and when we are having the best season and probably best team we have had since 99 it can get very irritating.

 

What gets boring is the over the top criticism of one player. Yeah Stockton, those breakdowns show how inaccurate Hoyer can be at times. Care to tell us something everyone else on this board doesn't know already? Too bad they don't show some of the great throws he made during the Texans game. I said it elsewhere- Hoyer is on game 3 of his 3 game audition Sunday against the Falcons. He has to win- he knows it, or it's Manziel time. You're going up against the worst pass defense in the NFL- so you had better have a great game.

[Tour2ma]

B/R articles.... I think my 6 year old nephew could compose better information.

Really...

 

I was going to stop after the first ludicrous example, but now, thanks to a certain someone chiming in, I have to look at the whole thing.

 

FYI, "someone", thru the first half the Texans put 8 or more in the box 6 times and we totaled 87 yards against that look. Sure sucks that a team that leans so heavily on PAP sees so many 8+ looks...

 

Example 1: The second frame was snapped after the ball was in the air. It's something one does when they want their point to be correct. But in this case it also "cropped out" the pressure in Hoyer's face that he had to throw over. Not an excuse, as there was ample room to drop in the pass and it should have been completed. Regardless... it was the correct read.

 

Example 2 (S5P3): The point at which the writer claimed the ball should be out is 0.6 seconds after the snap (my DVR slo-mo's forward at 30 fps). The ball was gone in 0.8 seconds... and at that it was rushed producing the errant throw and the poor throwing position the writer describes.

Hoyer did not drive into his back-peddle, hit his spot and set. His mechanics were off. I have no idea why, but a poor throw was the result. Fortunately the CB was beaten so badly by Gabe's quick out that he was fixated on him and not the ball.

 

Example 3: My film review has not gotten into the second half and I have little substantive comment. The "after" screen shot shows little sign of a pocket, so I suspect Hoyer did not stride well and the pass may have been errant. However, I also wonder if Gabe broke too far downfield as he is 5-yards past the line to gain. The writer's "throw open" comment seems a little misplaced to me.

 

On play 2 its 2nd and 11 we're in a 2TE 2WR spread and you can clearly see theyre playing a 5-2 (run defense) and only dropping 1 back and the other safety is spying the backfield (for the run). They never once step backwards, they're not scared of anything going over top of them.

Huh... here I thought the 5-2 look from a 3-4 D was its neutral, base defense... not a "run defense". On the other hand the ILBs are only 5 yards deep... no wait... that's standard, too... Must be a mensa-clever, "run D" disguise...

 

Are the CBs playing 10 yards off because "they're not scared of anything going over top of them"? Is that also why they started the play at the 36, but ended up inside the 35 with the nearside CB actually reaching the 33? BUt they did not move backwards so...

 

Nonetheless it's also weird how the up, "run support Safety" managed to back-peddle out of my 16:9 frame at the snap while "never once step(ping) backwards". Similarly odd that the deep Safety got from the 32 at the snap to the 27 without going backwards.

 

Apparently these Texan DBs were tricky fellas...

 

 

It's been well established that "someone" is an arrogant ass, but I at least used to think he was an honest one...

[StocktonShorts]

Really...

 

I was going to stop after the first ludicrous example, but now, thanks to a certain someone chiming in, I have to look at the whole thing.

 

FYI, "someone", thru the first half the Texans put 8 or more in the box 6 times and we totaled 87 yards against that look. Sure sucks that a team that leans so heavily on PAP sees so many 8+ looks...

 

Example 1: The second frame was snapped after the ball was in the air. It's something one does when they want their point to be correct. But in this case it also "cropped out" the pressure in Hoyer's face that he had to throw over. Not an excuse, as there was ample room to drop in the pass and it should have been completed. Regardless... it was the correct read.

 

Example 2 (S5P3): The point at which the writer claimed the ball should be out is 0.6 seconds after the snap (my DVR slo-mo's forward at 30 fps). The ball was gone in 0.8 seconds... and at that it was rushed producing the errant throw and the poor throwing position the writer describes.

Hoyer did not drive into his back-peddle, hit his spot and set. His mechanics were off. I have no idea why, but a poor throw was the result. Fortunately the CB was beaten so badly by Gabe's quick out that he was fixated on him and not the ball.

 

Example 3: My film review has not gotten into the second half and I have little substantive comment. The "after" screen shot shows little sign of a pocket, so I suspect Hoyer did not stride well and the pass may have been errant. However, I also wonder if Gabe broke too far downfield as he is 5-yards past the line to gain. The writer's "throw open" comment seems a little misplaced to me.

 

 

Huh... here I thought the 5-2 look from a 3-4 D was its neutral, base defense... not a "run defense". On the other hand the ILBs are only 5 yards deep... no wait... that's standard, too... Must be a mensa-clever, "run D" disguise...

 

Are the CBs playing 10 yards off because "they're not scared of anything going over top of them"? Is that also why they started the play at the 36, but ended up inside the 35 with the nearside CB actually reaching the 33? BUt they did not move backwards so...

 

Nonetheless it's also weird how the up, "run support Safety" managed to back-peddle out of my 16:9 frame at the snap while "never once step(ping) backwards". Similarly odd that the deep Safety got from the 32 at the snap to the 27 without going backwards.

 

Apparently these Texan DBs were tricky fellas...

 

 

It's been well established that "someone" is an arrogant ass, but I at least used to think he was an honest one...

 

 

Its amazing how you'll even argue with pictures. You can look at it, and yet you're saying "Well that's not the truth" Really? The picture is lying now?

This guy couldn't break it down any more clearly and you take his information, which is in great detail and example, and say "Well this is all wrong, my film study says otherwise" Great argument.

 

You're trying to make an argument that a guy who threw 30 incompletions didn't have a bad game.

 

Doesn't take a MENSA man like me to realize only an idiot would try to defend that.

[hoorta]

 

 

Its amazing how you'll even argue with pictures. You can look at it, and yet you're saying "Well that's not the truth" Really? The picture is lying now?

This guy couldn't break it down any more clearly and you take his information, which is in great detail and example, and say "Well this is all wrong, my film study says otherwise" Great argument.

 

You're trying to make an argument that a guy who threw 30 incompletions didn't have a bad game.

 

Doesn't take a MENSA man like me to realize only an idiot would try to defend that.

 

Gee, no one is saying Hoyer didn't have a bad game against the Texans, and was at least partially responsible for the loss. And I will say this- if defenses aren't afraid of Hoyer's arm, why are the corners playing so far off the receivers? Yes Hoyer made a lot of bad throws Sunday. Sheeze.