tiamat63 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Well....my interpretation says you're both right, as the WCO has evolved and changed a lot.....due to the different coaches who have implemented it... With Walsh, it really was originally used in lieu of the run.....IE....lots of screens and dump passes to the backs in normal running situations.....then, the random run out of the blue..... Modern WCO implements a more traditional run style, but uses 4 receiver sets and lots of motion & shifts.....then liberal use of shorter slant & swing routes.... Meaning, NOW all the receivers are more involved in the short game, when it used to be more about the backs... So, in principle, the WCO is(and has been) all about quick hitting short plays....mostly via pass.....which set up run opportunities that come randomly and cannot be predicted easily by the D.... Look, man - trying to talk foosball here. Take that shit to the Poli forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 So, in principle, the WCO is(and has been) all about quick hitting short plays... which set up run opportunities that come randomly and cannot be predicted easily by the D.... ... with success in the run then setting up intermediate, and deeper, throws off play action. This captures what I think of when I think "WCO". It was what we saw when Hoyer was effective early and the line was intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Not true at all, case in point - the Broncos teams of the 90's. WCO really identifies with the play language, play concepts, timing, execution and route designs. It has nothing to do with passing to run. This "pass to run" its a common myth. edit: I also wouldn't go as far as saying the Browns offense is exclusively anything under Shanny except the underlying common of ZBS. Sure there were plenty of timing routes, also plenty of option routes for our receivers as well, which isn't necessarily the guiding factor in a timing based offense. That's completely wrong. The "common myth" that you're claiming my description is happens to be closer to the truth than what you described. The West Coast Offense isn't a playcalling system. There is no official "WCO" play calling nomenclature. It is a philosophy of using short to intermediate passes as a supplement and, in some cases, replacement to the running game in order to keep the defense honest. What you're describing (nomenclature, etc) is the misappropriation of the term, started by our own Bernie Kosar, when WCO was erroneously used to describe the Air Coryell offense. The Air Coryell offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. The Air Raid Offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. But the West Coast Offense in and of itself is a philosophy...not an actual offensive playbook. The whole "WCO uses long playcall strings" simply stems from the fact that Walsh himself like long playcall strings and that he had a West Coast philosophy. Paul Brown, who invented the WCO, had varying play call strings that changed from year to year. "In American football, the "West Coast offense" is an offense that places a greater emphasis on passing than on running." An offensive philosophy in football that utilizes short, high percentage passes as the foundation of a ball-control offense. More of a philosophy on how to conduct a play than a specific formation. "The 'West Coast Offense' still amounts to nothing more than the total attention to detail and an appreciation for every facet of offensive football and refinement of those things that are needed to provide an environment that allows people to perform at maximum levels of self-actualization" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 That's completely wrong. The "common myth" that you're claiming my description is happens to be closer to the truth than what you described. The West Coast Offense isn't a playcalling system. There is no official "WCO" play calling nomenclature. It is a philosophy of using short to intermediate passes as a supplement and, in some cases, replacement to the running game in order to keep the defense honest. What you're describing (timing, nomenclature, route depths, etc) is the misappropriation of the term, started by our own Bernie Kosar, when WCO was erroneously used to describe the Air Coryell offense. The Air Coryell offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. The Air Raid Offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. But the West Coast Offense in and of itself is a philosophy...not an actual offensive playbook. The whole "WCO uses long playcall strings" simply stems from the fact that Walsh himself like long playcall strings and that he had a West Coast philosophy. Paul Brown, who invented the WCO, had varying play call strings that changed from year to year. I'm well aware of the philosophy, however the modern WyCo involves play calling nomenclature that's easy to pick up when receivers are tagged. Especially in offenses that are up tempo or no huddle. If you wanted receivers to be tagged outside of a designated number/route tree, that's when a longer play call comes into the picture. And if I'm wrong in what I'm stating with route depths and such, then why does your second quote say "short, high percentage passes"...? That would kind of prove my point, would it not? edit: Again, the evolution of the WyCo is that its flexible on run or pass. You can see as mentioned, the modern installment when run sets up pass. Especially for teams that don't have elite receiver talent and need to get their players in more one on one situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 It is a philosophy of using short to intermediate passes as a supplement and, in some cases, replacement to the running game in order to keep the defense honest. What you're describing (timing, nomenclature, route depths, etc) is the misappropriation of the term, started by our own Bernie Kosar, when WCO was erroneously used to describe the Air Coryell offense. The Air Coryell offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. The Air Raid Offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. But the West Coast Offense in and of itself is a philosophy...not an actual offensive playbook. The whole "WCO uses long playcall strings" simply stems from the fact that Walsh himself like long playcall strings and that he had a West Coast philosophy. Paul Brown, who invented the WCO, had varying play call strings that changed from year to year. Yet it's not called the "Ohio River Offense"... Too bad... has a nice ring to it. I know the seeds were sewn in Cinci under Brown, but by all accounts I know his assistant, Bill Walsh was the architect who was restrained by Brown. Not until Walsh took it to SF was the offense fully unleashed and the WCO born. But, yes... high-percentage passing to supplement the run is to my mind a great, capsule summary of the WCO. On the other hand... I did not know about Bernie mislabeling "Air Coryell" as WCO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm well aware of the philosophy, however the modern WyCo involves play calling nomenclature that's easy to pick up when receivers are tagged. Especially in offenses that are up tempo or no huddle. If you wanted receivers to be tagged outside of a designated number/route tree, that's when a longer play call comes into the picture. And if I'm wrong in what I'm stating with route depths and such, then why does your second quote say "short, high percentage passes"...? That would kind of prove my point, would it not? edit: Again, the evolution of the WyCo is that its flexible on run or pass. You can see as mentioned, the modern installment when run sets up pass. Especially for teams that don't have elite receiver talent and need to get their players in more one on one situations. I see what you're saying, and I get that there are common names and designations that have been carried over from coach to coach. You're not wrong about route depths and such. That is what I'm saying. The WCO is the philosophy behind the plays being run, not the play names themselves. Concepts, timing, etc, those are right on. Brown Right Deuce Jet Flanker Drive can be the same as Horton Belly 361, just depends on the coach. You were more correct than I gave you credit for, I just saw language and kind of stopped reading. That's completely wrong. The "common myth" that you're claiming my description is happens to be closer to the truth than what you described. The West Coast Offense isn't a playcalling system. There is no official "WCO" play calling nomenclature. It is a philosophy of using short to intermediate passes as a supplement and, in some cases, replacement to the running game in order to keep the defense honest. What you're describing (nomenclature, etc) is the misappropriation of the term, started by our own Bernie Kosar, when WCO was erroneously used to describe the Air Coryell offense. The Air Coryell offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. The Air Raid Offense is a subset of the West Coast Offense. But the West Coast Offense in and of itself is a philosophy...not an actual offensive playbook. The whole "WCO uses long playcall strings" simply stems from the fact that Walsh himself like long playcall strings and that he had a West Coast philosophy. Paul Brown, who invented the WCO, had varying play call strings that changed from year to year. Yet it's not called the "Ohio River Offense"... Too bad... has a nice ring to it. I know the seeds were sewn in Cinci under Brown, but by all accounts I know his assistant, Bill Walsh was the architect who was restrained by Brown. Not until Walsh took it to SF was the offense fully unleashed and the WCO born. But, yes... high-percentage passing to supplement the run is to my mind a great, capsule summary of the WCO. On the other hand... I did not know about Bernie mislabeling "Air Coryell" as WCO. Yep. When he played with Dallas, if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I see what you're saying, and I get that there are common names and designations that have been carried over from coach to coach. You're not wrong about route depths and such. That is what I'm saying. The WCO is the philosophy behind the plays being run, not the play names themselves. Concepts, timing, etc, those are right on. Brown Right Deuce Jet Flanker Drive can be the same as Horton Belly 361, just depends on the coach. You were more correct than I gave you credit for, I just saw language and kind of stopped reading. Yep. When he played with Dallas, if I'm not mistaken. I have a feeling we're saying a lot of the same things, just minor confusion on how we convey them between one another. Carry on, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 This may be the most football related discussion I have ever seen here lol. Actually quite informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Jaelen Strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 We pick at 12= WR White or Danny Shelton. We pick at 19= WR Funchess or WR Coats. We pass on(Peat, Clemmings, Flowers, Collins, Erving and Cann on OL. We pick at 43= WR Green-Beckem, J. Strong, N. Agholor, Devin Smith and T. Lippett. We pass on D. Perryman and many other needs. We pick at 77 and there is the STEAL Tyler Lockett WR and we pass on Trey Depriest ILB, Laken Tominson OG, Corey Robinson OT and WR Ty Montgomery. AND YES I KNOW IT'S STILL EARLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Watched Texas vs OU last night while attempting to sleep. Still want Malcolm Brown. He was destructive or drew a double team on damn near every play. I also think it allows this team a little head room should we think of swapping picks with Philly in case they feel threatened of losing a top OLB prospect such as Fowler. It's only one spot, we get another mid round pick. I'm surprised nobody is mentioning Striker out of OU. He's undersized for the position but I think he'd be a hell of a situational pass rusher for a mid round pick. Good burst, natural ability to dip his hips and fluid in space. In response to Gumby. No to Funchess and no to Coates in the 1st round. Honestly, no to Funchess, period. His hands have cost him from time to time. Sorry, I still have memories of Braylon fresh. I'd have no issue with Devin or Lockett at 43, if possible. Shelton checked in at the senior bowl with added weight. This is the time you want to be in peak condition for scouts. I just see the kid as an injury risk and someone that will show up to mini camp overweight. Massive NG/T with 15-20 weight fluctuations? No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Right their with you on both WR's at pick 19, Too many good OL to pass up at 19. The slot to get a good WR is at 43 our 1st 2nd round pick. But do you pass on Perryman and other needs?? I go with yea, due to we have no featured WR at this time and still need C. Shorts to come home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 .. or not have a true #1. What has been said that gives any indication Farmer values WRs high enough to spend a 1? What about last season indicated that a #1 was important to our offense? Step 1: Resign Austin Step 2: Sign Shorts Step 3: see what value falls to us in the draft. A good #1 will stretch the field. The Browns did this successfully with Cameron at the TE position but due to the lack of speed/position on the line, it takes a bit longer for that to develop so protection needs to hold longer. Austin is ok as is Shorts, neither a difference maker. The draft at 19 if you get the guy wouldn't be terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Watched Texas vs OU last night while attempting to sleep. Still want Malcolm Brown. He was destructive or drew a double team on damn near every play. I also think it allows this team a little head room should we think of swapping picks with Philly in case they feel threatened of losing a top OLB prospect such as Fowler. It's only one spot, we get another mid round pick. I'm surprised nobody is mentioning Striker out of OU. He's undersized for the position but I think he'd be a hell of a situational pass rusher for a mid round pick. Good burst, natural ability to dip his hips and fluid in space. In response to Gumby. No to Funchess and no to Coates in the 1st round. Honestly, no to Funchess, period. His hands have cost him from time to time. Sorry, I still have memories of Braylon fresh. I'd have no issue with Devin or Lockett at 43, if possible. Shelton checked in at the senior bowl with added weight. This is the time you want to be in peak condition for scouts. I just see the kid as an injury risk and someone that will show up to mini camp overweight. Massive NG/T with 15-20 weight fluctuations? No thanks. I've been an OU fan since the mid 80s, Striker is coming back for his senior season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beare Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 brandon marshall could become available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco918 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Lockett from KSt will be the wr steal in this draft. Watch how he comes along with whomever gets him. I hope it's us around Rd 3-4. He was the heart of that team this year. Great call my friend. He might not be the biggest guy in the world but he's quick and versatile. Have watched as much of him as I can the past two years and have not been disappointed. My only concern is some overlap with Hawkins but that's a problem I'd gladly deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Great call my friend. He might not be the biggest guy in the world but he's quick and versatile. Have watched as much of him as I can the past two years and have not been disappointed. My only concern is some overlap with Hawkins but that's a problem I'd gladly deal with. Lockett = chocolate Jordy Nelson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Shelton checked in at the senior bowl with added weight. This is the time you want to be in peak condition for scouts. I just see the kid as an injury risk and someone that will show up to mini camp overweight. Massive NG/T with 15-20 weight fluctuations? No thanks. I do like the fact that Shelton showed. Also does not hurt that he dominated practice to such a degree that he brought comparisons to Donald's performance last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I do like the fact that Shelton showed. Also does not hurt that he dominated practice to such a degree that he brought comparisons to Donald's performance last year. This is true, it says a lot for a kid whom accepted the invite to play in yet another game that may risk injury. Especially given that before the Senior Bowl he was a 1st round lock. I knew Donald would be a good one, I just had no idea how good, how fast. That kid has unbelievable burst for a person his size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andeftw Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Cobb would be a nice addition to any team. GB has had a decent history of resigning the guys they really want. See Jordy Nelson last year. The Packers also appear to have a culture where distractions are not tolerated and players tend to conform to expectations of a professional athlete. They are also used to cold weather football. If available, I like the Browns to get him. If this happens, however, it doesn't mean that WR stops being a priority. Still a priority but not so much of an emergency. I don't see the Packers letting him go. Not sure what drives him as a player, is it maximizing his earning potential? The Packers signed Jordy Nelson to a 9.75 M/year contract last year, so they won't go above that for Cobb. Is getting more than 10 million a year so important to him that he's willing to leave arguably the best offense in the league for a team with no quarterback? That's the only way he'll be leaving Green Bay in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andeftw Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Lockett = chocolate Jordy Nelson? More like Randall Cobb if you ask be. Jordy is a prototypical outside receiver with the skills to play in the slot. Lockett is a prototypical slot receiver with the ability to play out wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Lockett would be a steal if he is still there for our 4th pick. I suspect we got DL, OL and ILB first. Another I'd take is Crowder out a Duke-very underrated but had equal value to his team-clutch on 3rd downs. Be a good late rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Many mysteries here. Cameron injury history is scary. I want Austin back & go after a young (28 & under) vet WR. There are a number in FA. To me, the biggest issue is not money, but who will sign here? In the draft, many rookies don't immediately contribute heavily due to route running & learning the offense, so I would look at big guys with good hands who might help in the red zone & on 3rd down jump balls while they are learning. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 All they need to complete the package is a bearded lady, Siamese twins, and a giant to stand next to little Johnny for contrast And you to follow behind the parade with a shovel with which to clean up the elephant shit. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 We pick at 12= WR White or Danny Shelton. We pick at 19= WR Funchess or WR Coats. We pass on(Peat, Clemmings, Flowers, Collins, Erving and Cann on OL. We pick at 43= WR Green-Beckem, J. Strong, N. Agholor, Devin Smith and T. Lippett. We pass on D. Perryman and many other needs. We pick at 77 and there is the STEAL Tyler Lockett WR and we pass on Trey Depriest ILB, Laken Tominson OG, Corey Robinson OT and WR Ty Montgomery. AND YES I KNOW IT'S STILL EARLY Nice. Some Funchess love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 With the 23rd pick in the 2015 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select... Devin Funchess, Wide Receiver, Michigan - 8/2/14 Why would you have them taking him 23rd, when they pick 12 and 19? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Look at the date on it. I said that in August. I didn't know when we (or the Bills) would be picking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchTits Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I say we draft Dorial Green-Becham and pair him with Josh Gordon, that way we have two elite talent, big receivers, who cannot stay on the field. Go Browns!! Can't be worse then whomever we waste our picks on lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 First and second round: OL, DL, QB in some order. After that, BPA. Green-Beckham will probably be there in the third. I'd comsider pulling the trigger there only after the OL and DL have been addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 If Green-Beckham is available at 19 you make the move if not stay put with what you have and take a chance on Kenny Britt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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