OldBrownsFan Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/11/prominent-faith-leader-turned-politican-tells-pastors-quit-worrying-so-much-about-the-tax-code-and-focus-on-god/ When a church accepts the 501c3 status, that church: Waives its freedom of speech. Waives its freedom of religion. Waives its right to influence legislators and the legislation they craft. Waives its constitutionally guaranteed rights. Is no longer free to speak to the vital issues of the day. Becomes controlled by a spirit of fear that if it doesn’t toe the line with the IRS it will lose its tax-exempt status. Becomes a State-Church. A corporation is by definition a creature of the state. By leaving free church status and incorporating, a church is making itself not a free creature of Christ, the king of kings, but a creature of the civil government. This is actively mingling church and state, and worse, subjecting the church to the state. When the church goes further and receives 501c3 status, it is doing the same thing at the federal level: subjecting Christ to Caesar. Worse yet, such a church is effectively signing a contract not to preach the Bible in many ways in the public square in “exchange” for the promise of tax exemption It would be good to see conservative churches get back into the political arena by giving up tax exempt status. I am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 "Is no longer free to speak on the vital issues of the day" In what way? The church has a strong view on a few of the "vital issues of the day" right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 The church has given up freedom of speech for tax breaks. To me it is not worth it. The church cannot support or oppose a political party or candidate from the pulpit. There are social issues today and political candidates and parties that need to be addressed from the pulpit but the church has given up that right up for a tax break. The vital issues of today for me would be abortion, gay rights versus religious freedom, political platforms, support of Israel, etc. I really don't think liberals who want churches taxed will be pleased with the new freedom pastors will have to speak out in church. Section 501 (3) ©of the Internal Revenue Code states, “Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes” may qualify for tax-exempt status, provided that “no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” The restriction on political endorsements was first proposed by former-President and then-Senator Lyndon B. Johnson and added to the tax code in 1954. According the Internal Revenue Service's online explanation of the restrictions for non-profit groups, churches are “absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.” The IRS adds churches are restricted from “voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; ( oppose a candidate in some manner; or © have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Religion is fading away as our society becomes more educated, so really it is just a matter of time. Your comment though about liberals not liking the results if churches can speak on political issues. I don't think it would change a thing. If you're the type of person that would take political advice from your clergyman, than you're probably voting on the "religious side / conservative side" of social issues already. A whole new mass of conservative voters wouldn't be created because priests could endorse the anti-gay candidate, as opposed to just the anti-gay beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Perhaps protestant churches do, but I have never attended a Catholic church where a priest conducted a sermon supporting a political candidate or preached an anti-abortion, or anti-gay message. However, churches taking a position on these issues and preaching them are two different things. Taking a position on these issues cannot be avoided. Should the Catholic Church be disqualified from tax exempt status because it is against the death penalty? I have never heard a priest speak out against the death penalty as well, but I know the Catholic Churches position on it. This would be government overreach and a violation of the freedom of religion if tax exempt status were removed simply because the Church has taken a position on moral issue. Its what churches do. I've heard about some protestant denominations preaching a pro gay message from the pulpit. I wonder if that counts...and I wonder if libtards whine about them not being qualified to receive tax exempt status as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Religion is fading away as our society becomes more educated, so really it is just a matter of time.Being more educated as in "there really is no God"? Little good that "education" doing. Religion is fading away as our society becomes more corrupt, immoral, and criminal....not more educated. And I'm talking about Chritianity...the civilized religion. I know you like to group them right in there with Islamists. If you're the type of person that would take political advice from your clergyman, than you're probably voting on the "religious side / conservative side" of social issues already. Lol..if the Churches don't influence, then there really is no need to exclude churches from tax exempt status, right Woody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Religion is fading away as our society becomes more educated, so really it is just a matter of time. Your comment though about liberals not liking the results if churches can speak on political issues. I don't think it would change a thing. If you're the type of person that would take political advice from your clergyman, than you're probably voting on the "religious side / conservative side" of social issues already. A whole new mass of conservative voters wouldn't be created because priests could endorse the anti-gay candidate, as opposed to just the anti-gay beliefs. We have been told religion has been fading away for a long time but it never does. It was a liberal democrat Lyndon Johnson who was worried about conservative churches involved in politics and put the provisions in the tax code to keep churches from endorsing political parties or candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Being more educated as in "there really is no God"? Little good that "education" doing. Religion is fading away as our society becomes more corrupt, immoral, and criminal....not more educated. And I'm talking about Chritianity...the civilized religion. I know you like to group them right in there with Islamists. Lol..if the Churches don't influence, then there really is no need to exclude churches from tax exempt status, right Woody? Is Christianity the only religion you find civilized? I group all religion together because, at the end of the day, they are all very similar. Being more educated in the sense that we know why the tides go in and out (well, some of us do). We don't need to pray for health, we have medicine. We seem to all be in agreement ancient religions with Sun gods and what not are ridiculous, but apparently more modern ones are not? Why not? Do we really think 2 of every animal fit on a boat? Do we really think some guy came back to life 3 days later? How are these any less ridiculous? As we become more educated as a society we can realize the ridiculousness of religion. It was used as a way to control the uneducated masses in the past. We should be past that by now. From backwards 3rd world country muslims killing gays to US Christians denying evolution. We should be passed all of it. I never said churches don't influence. I am saying, that if you would go to your clergyman for political advice, than you are probably already taking the "religious" side on some social issue. I agree with you, just treat religious institutions kind of like corporations. Remove their tax exempt status, and let them make whatever political contributions they see fit. I really don't think that all of a sudden everyone would be following religion more in the US because of it, but at least we wouldn't be subsidizing religion anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 We have been told religion has been fading away for a long time but it never does. It was a liberal democrat Lyndon Johnson who was worried about conservative churches involved in politics and put the provisions in the tax code to keep churches from endorsing political parties or candidates. Religion has less of a hold on society than it did 50 years ago, which was less than it has 200 years ago. Its influence is fading as society as a whole becomes more educated and we learn the answers to our questions, instead of taking them from whichever book you believe in. Generational ReplacementOne important factor behind the growth of the religiously unaffiliated is generational replacement, the gradual supplanting of older generations by newer ones. Among the youngest Millennials (those ages 18-22, who were minors in 2007 and thus not eligible to be interviewed in Pew Research Center surveys conducted that year), fully one-third (34%) are religiously unaffiliated, compared with about one-in-ten members of the Silent Generation (9%) and one-in-twenty members of the World War II-era Greatest Generation (5%). Older Millennials (ages 23-30) also are substantially less likely than prior generations to be religiously affiliated. But generational replacement is not the only factor at play. Generation Xers and Baby Boomers also have become more religiously unaffiliated in recent years. In 2012, 21% of Gen Xers and 15% of Baby Boomers describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated, up slightly (but by statistically significant margins) from 18% and 12%, respectively, since 2007. The trend lines for earlier generations are essentially flat. Not only are young adults less likely to be affiliated than their elders, but the GSS shows that the percentage of Americans who were raised without an affiliation has been rising gradually, from about 3% in the early 1970s to about 8% in the past decade. However, the overwhelming majority of the “nones” were brought up in a religious tradition. The new Pew Research Center/Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly survey finds that about three-quarters of unaffiliated adults were raised with some affiliation (74%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 So they polled billions of people and came up with these results? Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 http://m.christianpost.com/news/study-world-is-turning-more-religious-atheism-declining--100518/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 http://m.christianpost.com/news/study-world-is-turning-more-religious-atheism-declining--100518/ the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts. or Pew Research Center hmmmm.... If there are places in Africa or the Middle East that will become "more religious" going forward, we need to work as a whole to further educate those areas of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 So they polled billions of people and came up with these results? Nah. 1) You don't poll "billions of people". That isn't how surveys like these work 2) I was using the US as an example. Compared to a lot of other developed countries in the world, we're actually much, much more religious 3) You may not like the poll results, but that doesn't make them true. You fit into the older demo polled here, so I can see why you'd disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Let's say you are right buddy. Christianity is shrinking and dying in the United States. (Personally I'd say it's just because young kids think it's hip to be a theist but I digress.) So how's the increase in welfare illegitimate children food stamps violent crime etcetera correlate with that? Are we looking at a net plus from that progress as you call it? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Sad to think the military would ban a chaplain from aiding the family of a dead soldier because he is not politically correct. The problem is that the bible is not politically correct so to be a chaplain today in the military you have to practice the new religion of political correctness. Maybe they can write their own new version of the bible too because they don't like the "old version". http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/03/24/navy-bans-chaplain-from-ministering-to-family-dead-sailor/ Yeah kind of a buyer beware situation. If you are homosexual and choose to go to personal one on one counseling sessions with a Christian you have to expect that person's version of the doctrine. If you don't like his/her stance you just go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Let's say you are right buddy. Christianity is shrinking and dying in the United States. (Personally I'd say it's just because young kids think it's hip to be a theist but I digress.) So how's the increase in welfare illegitimate children food stamps violent crime etcetera correlate with that? Are we looking at a net plus from that progress as you call it? WSS Right, anything a young person does is just a "fad", got it. We will all find the lord soon enough... Correlation does not imply causation. The idea that bad things happen because people aren't religious is hilarious. But yes, I believe there will be a net plus from religion fading away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 no woody. Opinions and beliefs and attitudes often change as people grow up. the most liberal time in anyone's life is there early twenties. But to the net plus Hitler Stalin and Mao crushed the churches. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 no woody. Opinions and beliefs and attitudes often change as people grow up. the most liberal time in anyone's life is there early twenties. But to the net plus Hitler Stalin and Mao crushed the churches. WSS Opinions an beliefs may sway some as more info is put into the equation. But to go from non-religious to religious is a pretty big swing. That is going to be a very small exception. I would be willing to bet the trends I posted above will continue, and today's younger generations won't all of a sudden become religious. and to the net negative, The Westboro Baptist church is a thing. I stick by my statement, that as a whole, we are better off as a people without religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Let's see... Stalin or the Westboro Baptist Church (most famous for being extremely rude)... Yep, seems about equal to me. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Opinions an beliefs may sway some as more info is put into the equation. But to go from non-religious to religious is a pretty big swing. That is going to be a very small exception. I would be willing to bet the trends I posted above will continue, and today's younger generations won't all of a sudden become religious. and to the net negative, The Westboro Baptist church is a thing. I stick by my statement, that as a whole, we are better off as a people without religion. Unless you're in recovery or prison! I think we are better off as people with spirituality but I agree indoctrination is a slippery slope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 "I stick by my statement, that as a whole, we are better off as a people without religion." North Korea is a nation like that. I think we are better off when people have the choice and freedom on these matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 "I stick by my statement, that as a whole, we are better off as a people without religion." North Korea is a nation like that. I think we are better off when people have the choice and freedom on these matters. You could argue that the North Koreans have religion forced upon them to deify their dictator. It has been awhile since any other religion has seen god they are lucky enough to see theirs on TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Let's see... Stalin or the Westboro Baptist Church (most famous for being extremely rude)... Yep, seems about equal to me. WSS nvr said equal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 "I stick by my statement, that as a whole, we are better off as a people without religion." North Korea is a nation like that. I think we are better off when people have the choice and freedom on these matters. Oh, I agree. I am not going to force anyone to stop being religious. I don't think we should take that away a person's right to choose. That doesn't change the fact I think society would be better off without it. All you can do is educate each new generation, and let the change happen naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Oh, I agree. I am not going to force anyone to stop being religious. I don't think we should take that away a person's right to choose. That doesn't change the fact I think society would be better off without it. All you can do is educate each new generation, and let the change happen naturally. People will always find a reason to fight and kill each other. People will always find a way to impose their beliefs on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Is Christianity the only religion you find civilized? No. I was merely comparing Christianity to Islam. I group all religion together because, at the end of the day, they are all very similar. No Woody, they may start out very similar but at the end of the day they end up very different. Being more educated in the sense that we know why the tides go in and out (well, some of us do). We don't need to pray for health, we have medicine. We seem to all be in agreement ancient religions with Sun gods and what not are ridiculous, but apparently more modern ones are not? Why not? Do we really think 2 of every animal fit on a boat? Do we really think some guy came back to life 3 days later? How are these any less ridiculous? How petty and superficial....how does any of that harm you Woody? How is any of that a detriment to society? A wife praying at the bedside of her seriously ill husband needs to stop? Saying a prayer for the troops is bad? You're an idiot. As we become more educated as a society we can realize the ridiculousness of religion. It was used as a way to control the uneducated masses in the past. We should be past that by now. From backwards 3rd world country muslims killing gays to US Christians denying evolution. We should be passed all of it. So Muslims killing gays = Christians denying evolution? Yeah, I can see that. Again, how is Christians denying evolution harmful to society? How does it harm you? Because you're offended? Too fuckin bad. As you become older you may realize the ridiculousness of liberalism...it is a greater harm to society than your petty whining about Christianity, and it is liberalism that needs to go away. You're just an angry and spiteful little guy. It bothers you to see conservatives and Christians content and happy with their lives. Face it Woodly, the only religious threat to society in this day and age is Islamic extremism. I never said churches don't influence. I am saying, that if you would go to your clergyman for political advice, than you are probably already taking the "religious" side on some social issue. WTF??? You wanna try that one again? If you are already taking the religious side on some social issue why go to a clergyman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's a birdbrain ! It's a weirdo liberal...it's a...EMOTIONAL KNEE JERK WOODPECKER ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Actually can anybody think of a reason the country would not be better off if we all believed in and tried to adhere to the Ten Commandments? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Actually can anybody think of a reason the country would not be better off if we all believed in and tried to adhere to the Ten Commandments? WSS On a high level? Sure. Don't murder, don't steal, respect your parents, etc. But "I'm the only god", "only worship me", etc can lead to some issues. Anyone that chooses not to would be disobeying the 10 commandments, and in a society where this is the law, that means punishment. That also leads to a literal interpretation of the bible, which would set our country's scientific advancement back. Not to mention no one could do anything on Sunday. No where to get food, no services, and most importantly.... No football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairHooker11 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 assuming the ten commandments were and will be an intrusion to society is your first flaw.... the church believes they were written first to an obstinate people who continually failed to live up to Gods law believers in Jesus Christ would tell you that it simply reminds them that the ten commandments are a constant reminder of our sinful state and our need for a savior... Sorry - if your argument is wrecked - it is not a mandatory rule to do any of this - like I said earlier, free will allows everyone freedom and liberty to choose for themselves. but I would say choose wisely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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