gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Tithe is a flat tax dude. Again this is not a new idea and it's already implemented all over the world. I'm aware of a tithe, thanks. All over the world - difficult to argue with that. Seen the list of economic and social powerhouses that have a flat tax? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_flat_tax_systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Did you even read that wiki? It's not exactly helping your position that it's a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's not a particularly great system, but that's not the point. You're claiming 'it's already implemented all over the world' - and I was just giving you a list of the countries that have it. Russia & eastern bloc, saudi arabia, and a few islands, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 That's all four hemispheres bud. I'm not sure what more qualification for "all over the world" you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Here's why I think he'll make a good president. Ok? Since you keep going on about how no one will tell you why they think he would. He's calm and level headed. He doesn't get all riled up and play along too much with the usual shit stirring mudraking bullshit of politics. He's a brain surgeon. He spent his career doing stuff that actually kind of matters. You probably weren't posting here very much a year or so ago when a doctor with the same specialization saved my second son, Jack's, life. That is the sort of thing that resonates with you. Granted that's not necessarily a great reason to vote for somebody but we're talking about the sort of person here with the patience to take apart a toddler's head and rebuild it without killing them or damaging their brain. Patience is a true virtue. I think he'd make an excellent diplomat and will be able to work calmly and rationally with other leaders of the world towards things that are actually in our best interest. I can't see him taking lavish vacations and golfing one hundred days out of the year. He is a great brain surgeon, one of the best of our time actually. He's calm and mild mannered, doesn't get riled up about a lot. Some people see it as a weakness in terms of negotiation among other things - some people see it as a strength. I think it's a decent reason to vote for him, but the issues come in elsewhere. Despite the many petty things he's being hounded about right now (And no candidate is free of these things although he's being hounded about them and Ms. Hillary Clinton is not being hounded about hers at all) I think he has a strong character and that he is not likely to favor any person or group of people based on something like skin color (our sitting president is very very guilty of this) Depends on the group of people. I'd say he's very likely to favor Christian groups over anything else - given comments about how a Muslim shouldn't be president, among other things. I think that the example that he sets for people of color is much much better than President Obama. He is a self made man whereas Obama has literally had everything handed to him without working for it. I think that in this country a lot of black folks are resentful that they do not have things handed to them like the president has. That is a message that is not going to help anyone. That is not the American way. Despite what you think I view him as intelligent enough to carefully consider advice that he may recieve from advisors. This is what a president should do. Nobody in the world is good enough to run a country on their own. We currently have what is easily the most arrogant president I've ever personally witnessed in the white house. Hillary is just as bad. Arrogant and mad for power. Neither of these people are economists. As you've consistently said that Carson doesn't understand how the economy works I'd like to know how you feel about the way President Obama has been running it. Printing money left and right is not a solution. We're now in the worst debt that we've ever been in. How is that helping the economy? Do I believe the same things he believes? I do not. I in no way am a Christian, I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. I have no particular affinity for Christians but then again I don't know what the fuck is out there in the ether so their beliefs don't offend me like they seem to offend other people. Christian values are a good thing. I try to live my life without hurting anyone or belittling the things they believe in. I feel like a lot of athiests feel the driving need to belittle the faith of others and that makes me want to punch them squarely in the nose. This is where the things like: belief in pyramids as grain stores, against big bang theory, against climate change, belief prisoners come out gay so gay is a choice, belief satan encouraged Darwin to come up with evolution, literal 6-day creation, etc. Say I was to make a decision on something I didn't know a whole lot about (I suspect Carson isn't an expert in physics, biology, archaeology --- the economy, etc.). I have several people - several well funded institutions, giving me a list of facts, objective observations, measurements that all point to one outcome. Instead of choosing the one outcome all of the facts, observations, measurements, etc. point to, I choose a different outcome that disagrees with all of those facts. The president has to make these decisions an awful lot, daily - weekly. I'm not sure how much, but it's a lot. This is why I doubt his ability to choose the best outcome when he has to make a decision. If he has to make a decision on how to treat me as a patient - I'd trust him completely because he knows what he's doing, but on things he doesn't know a lot about I'd question his decision making prowess. Carson also hasn't been challenged a whole lot - something that happens a lot as POTUS. Now he's being challenged on his past and beliefs in a few ways - he's having a pretty hard time I think showing very defensive and screaming "biased media!" Maybe they are biased, but the west point story is questionable - the date it happened and the offer itself. Looks like a trivial embellishment. The Yale story isn't true but is based on a fiction/satire type of piece that was in a Yale paper. No big deal really, just made a good story. Getting slammed on pretty minor things and screaming biased media! Obama didn't get criticism! Is not the best way to handle it, IMO. You seem like a smart guy, Eds, You know that every single candidate has some kind of skeleton in their closet don't you? These petty things that they're dredging up against Carson aren't any worse and are actually less damning than Hillary lying about Chelsea Clinton having been jogging around the WTC on 9/11 or saying that she came off the plane under Sniper fire in Bosnia when there's video of her walking around calmly gladhanding people on the flightline. It's far less damaging in my opinion than Hillary having been cuckolded before the nation's eyes and doing nothing about it. However the media chooses to run a story about Ben Carson saying some inconsequential bullshit and it's being run over and over. Come on man. This shit is nothing.Everyone lies. Everyone. Certainly everyone in the public eye. The guy is not a seasoned politician who's been playing the game his whole adult life. He doesn't know how to lie as well as the Clintons and Obamas of the world. Do you know how many times they've lied to you? In just about every word that comes out of their mouths. Bush and Cheney too. Politicians lie. They know how to lie. They lie to you with the most sincere face and we just eat that shit up. I like Ben's character. He's not a good liar. He is a good character person with a strong work ethic and a drive to succeed. Unless you think he's lying about the situation he was born into. I think he's lying about the violent past incidents, stabbing incident, etc. I'm not sure why because he doesn't really need to, but whatever. Everyone on the stage has lies, past controversy, etc. Being on top or close to it means you'll be under the spot light. The media will be asking everybody you've ever known about you, searching records wherever you've said you've been, etc. People like Clinton and Trump have been doing it for years, so they're good at handling it - Carson not so much. If you've got to trust someone do you trust a doctor? or a lawyer? If you have to think more than two seconds for the answer to that you are a very different person than me. Well the general consensus would be a Doctor is more trustworthy than a Lawyer. But if I have a divorce settlement, criminal case, etc. I'm going to call a laywer because I trust him to get me the best deal. When my chest hurts, I'm calling the doctor. We have many different people in the race: - Sanders career politician - Clinton career criminal - Trump career real estate mogul and showman - Carson career neurosurgeon - Rubio/Cruz career lawyer/politician - Bush career businessman/politician There's still more to the picture, and even if I trusted Carson to be commander-in-chief (I don't, personally) - I disagree with him politically (and I think the average American would too) on things like a flat tax, replacing medicare (at least his version of it), his hindsight foreign policy issues and current views, his stance on war on drugs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 And say Carson got the date wrong and it was in February, and he was verbally told something like "you should apply, you'll likely get a full scholarship" Some general could have told me once "Hey you're a great candidate for west point, you should apply you're basically guaranteed to get a full scholarship." But I never applied or did anything for it. I don't think I'd write it in a book the way Carson did, "I remember vividly the memorial day parade, General Westmoreland was in town and we had a great conversation and he offered me a full scholarship." It's an embellishment and can be explained away to say it wasn't a lie - but a misunderstanding - it sure sounds more interesting that way though if I was writing an autobiography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think the general manager of Best Buy once told me that I should buy my groceries at the West Point Market in Akron. But my memory of it is fuzzy WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 That's all four hemispheres bud. I'm not sure what more qualification for "all over the world" you need. It's not the all over the world-ness of it I'm disputing - if 'all over the world' is the only criteria, there's plenty of things that we should go for - women as second class citizens, no freedom of speech or press, military governments etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 And say Carson got the date wrong and it was in February, and he was verbally told something like "you should apply, you'll likely get a full scholarship" Some general could have told me once "Hey you're a great candidate for west point, you should apply you're basically guaranteed to get a full scholarship." But I never applied or did anything for it. I don't think I'd write it in a book the way Carson did, "I remember vividly the memorial day parade, General Westmoreland was in town and we had a great conversation and he offered me a full scholarship." It's an embellishment and can be explained away to say it wasn't a lie - but a misunderstanding - it sure sounds more interesting that way though if I was writing an autobiography. Actually, for me it's not that big of a deal. What he's claiming is basically what has been verified elsewhere. He was a top recruit, he was recruited by the general, told he'd basically get a free ride, and then declined the invitation. Big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah and the point is? You took issue with something I said and then produced a map which basically confirmed exactly what I said and now you want to argue something else. That's basically exactly what happens to carson all the time, interestingly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah and the point is? You took issue with something I said and then produced a map which basically confirmed exactly what I said and now you want to argue something else. That's basically exactly what happens to carson all the time, interestingly enough. If that's what you think then you've wholly misunderstood what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure how, but let's take it from the beginning: 1) It reads to me very much like he's basing his flat tax ideas on the bible, especially given the quote I provided. 2) Yes, flat tax is in place in some countries around the world - but those are hardly the countries the US (or UK) should try to emulate, many of them former soviet countries; can't see that going down well over there, for better or worse. 3) Just because something is in place in countries around the world, we shouldn't necessarily rush to adopt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted November 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 no crap, burlap. But a flat tax is a solid idea. Everybody pays their fair flat tax - the same percentage. We never get to hear exactly was any lib thinks is wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 1. Pandering to his base already covered it. Besides, being from the Bible is not automatically a bad thing. The bible says "thou shalt not kill" so do we go: "well fuck that religious nonsense. It's the 21st century murder should be legal"? Sometimes old ideas are still good ones. 2. It's not emulating Baltic states to implement a flat tax. Several states in America already do it on a state level. On a federal level roughly 43% of people still pay no income tax so forgive me if I'm not willing to pick up the slack on them. 3. Unnecessary. You already covered your opinion of it in 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 1. Pandering to his base already covered it. Besides, being from the Bible is not automatically a bad thing. The bible says "thou shalt not kill" so do we go: "well fuck that religious nonsense. It's the 21st century murder should be legal"? Sometimes old ideas are still good ones. 2. It's not emulating Baltic states to implement a flat tax. Several states in America already do it on a state level. On a federal level roughly 43% of people still pay no income tax so forgive me if I'm not willing to pick up the slack on them. 3. Unnecessary. You already covered your opinion of it in 2. OK, progress, you're understanding my point. But still kinda missing it? No developed country uses a flat tax system. It's socially unfair and would lead to huge reductions in spending. The US is already on plenty of not-so-hot lists, like countries not ratifying the equal rights for women convention - "The UN member states that have not ratified the convention are Iran, Palau, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Tonga, and the United States" - for example. These are countries to move away from, not to emulate. The point about it coming from the bible isn't to say everything in the bible is wrong/bad. Plenty is off-base, certainly in the 21st century, but obviously some things still apply. The point is that he's using the bible as basis/justification for legislature, which is, as cal would say, a slippery slope. Big serious trouble? You betcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's socially unfair that 43% of americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax isn't unfair at all. Why because the poor would still have to pay their share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 It's socially unfair that 43% of americans don't pay income tax. A flat tax isn't unfair at all. Why because the poor would still have to pay their share? World according to chris - everyone pays a flat level of tax, after a certain level. You need X amount of dollars to live on, so you get it tax free. The next Y dollars are really about bringing you from 'not quite in poverty' to 'having a decent life' to 'having a good life' and so you get a somewhat tax rate. After that, pay a percentage of your income as tax, and that's the same all the way up. As it turns out, this is the model used by most developed countries. Remarkable coincidence. 43% don't pay tax? That's a bit misleading, since most (29%) of those are paying payroll tax - so they're getting taxed on their income, but someone else is physically giving it to the government. Another 10% are retired. Basically, there's less than 5% of people who don't pay tax, and it's because they're earning so little they need the money for food and stuff. http://www.businessinsider.com/43-of-americans-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-2013-9?IR=T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 no crap, burlap. But a flat tax is a solid idea. Everybody pays their fair flat tax - the same percentage. We never get to hear exactly was any lib thinks is wrong with that. I can tell you in simple terms, though you could discredit this as "liberal thinking", keep in mind very few people on either side support a flat tax. 1.) $1.1 trillion hole (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/04/ben-carson/does-ben-carsons-tithe-based-tax-plan-lead-1-trill/) 2.) 73.1% of the entire nation's wealth belongs to the top 10%. 85.1% belong to the top 20% (meaning, only 14.9% belong to the lower-upper middle class) Ok so 85.1% of the nation's wealth belongs to the top 20%. I'm not in the top 20%, or really close to it - but I still make significantly more than the average per capita income of people in the state of Ohio, which is only around $26,000. Let's say we have a flat tax of 15% (as Carson proposes): Person 1: Gross Income: $25,000 Federal tax (15%): -$3750 Ohio State Tax ($332.06 + 3.169% of $4,100): -$462 Take home income (excluding other local taxes): $20,788 A) Individually are you able to survive on $20,788 per year? No not really. Maybe in certain very low income, low cost of living cities and it'd be extremely tight. Person 2: Gross Income: $1,000,000 Federal tax (15%): -$150,000 Ohio State Tax ($8,529.17 + 5.333% of 791,500): -$50,740 Take home income (excluding other local taxes): $799,260 B ) Individually you could live in anywhere you wanted to comfortably. Shop exclusively at the fresh market, drive some nice cars, live in a huge house on the lake, pay somebody to clean for you, eat out every day - and still have a lot left over to save, invest, etc. ----- Now say we had a progressive tax system (we do) and the $25,000 earner paid 0% and the $1M earner paid 25% (say median, because I know how a progressive tax system works they don't pay 35-39% on all their income, so say 25). The answers to both A and B remain the exact same. Now, who suffers more under the flat tax versus progressive tax plan Person 1, saves $3,750 under the progressive plan, is still barely able to get by but they get an extra $3750 in their pocket - which could be nice for an emergency expense such as a car repair or paying an unexpected $1500 insurance deducible under Carson's health care plan, etc.. Person 2, loses $100,000 under the progressive plan, still lives an extremely comfortable life with ~$700,000 take-home income. Conclusion: - Person 1 suffers on the flat tax plan, they lose money that they can't afford to lose. - Person 2 is indifferent regardless of the tax plan, yea they lose money but they can still afford to live comfortably in any city in the country. They still don't worry about making their car payment, paying their mortgage. They're still driving a BMW and have a corvette for spirited drives at the track or on the weekend. They can still take 6 vacations a year anywhere they want, etc, etc. ---- Other issues - Carson's plan removes all deductions, including - Deduction for offering employees health insurance (Say hello to more government high-deductible HSA plan enrollees under Carson) - Deductions for charity contributions (I'm sure charity contributions won't go down at all though) - Student loan interest deduction (Can't pay your loans as it is students? Here, pay more!) - Deduction for job-related moving cost (Oh you can't afford to move to another state to become employed, stay unemployed!) - Deduction for child/child care (Oh you had a child who significantly dampens your disposable income, good for you) ...The list goes on </Well Informed Rant> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 World according to chris - everyone pays a flat level of tax, after a certain level. You need X amount of dollars to live on, so you get it tax free. The next Y dollars are really about bringing you from 'not quite in poverty' to 'having a decent life' to 'having a good life' and so you get a somewhat tax rate. After that, pay a percentage of your income as tax, and that's the same all the way up. As it turns out, this is the model used by most developed countries. Remarkable coincidence. 43% don't pay tax? That's a bit misleading, since most (29%) of those are paying payroll tax - so they're getting taxed on their income, but someone else is physically giving it to the government. Another 10% are retired. Basically, there's less than 5% of people who don't pay tax, and it's because they're earning so little they need the money for food and stuff. http://www.businessinsider.com/43-of-americans-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-2013-9?IR=T Hello chris I specified income tax. Did I need to specify federal income tax for you to get it? That's what we're talking about with a presidential tax plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 If that's what you think then you've wholly misunderstood what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure how, but let's take it from the beginning: 1) It reads to me very much like he's basing his flat tax ideas on the bible, especially given the quote I provided. 2) Yes, flat tax is in place in some countries around the world - but those are hardly the countries the US (or UK) should try to emulate, many of them former soviet countries; can't see that going down well over there, for better or worse. 3) Just because something is in place in countries around the world, we shouldn't necessarily rush to adopt it. By the same token you could say "well backwards ass africa doesn't use a flat tax. Should we be emulating africa?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I like my explanation of why flat tax is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I haven't read it yet. I'll get around to it at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 By the same token you could say "well backwards ass africa doesn't use a flat tax. Should we be emulating africa?" Ever been to Detroit? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Damn Cysko, you're on the warpath. It seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing though. But again, there are still other crazy things Carson has said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 edw must be on the public welfare system ...or something. He HATES anybody who thinks people should be trying to work for a living, and show some responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 edw must be on the public welfare system ...or something. He HATES anybody who thinks people should be trying to work for a living, and show some responsibility. FIrst statement no, I'm a software engineer actually... Second statement is stupid because I pointed out that a flat tax hurts people that do work for a living. It isn't affecting anybody who doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 bb... it's why long write-ups seldom payoff. Really should combine yours and Chris' and add in sales tax. Cysko... the honest debate is about total tax burden as a percentage of non-discretionary income. You cannot carve out "income tax" and drop the mic. Ditto for your "scholarships" link... It may well boil down to semantics, but your link is to ones available from private organizations to defer cadet expenses. Any discussion about attending would revolve around "appointment" or "nomination" as Stinkhole stated. Any discussion of the linked scholarships would likely occur only after acceptance. I can't say yet that i absolutely dislike Carson, but I definitely see his inferiority complex... Exactly what I was thinking... ... it's why hillary clinton is currently stumping around the black community offering them the stars and moon Do you have actual examples of a "star" and a "moon"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Tour hello did you even read the west point flyer on which "full government scholarship" is highlighted? Why the fuck are you all stickling so hard on the semantics of an unaccepted offer from 46 years ago? It's petty and frankly re tarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I did not know we had so many h&r block employees in board here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/07/politics/hillary-clinton-south-carolina/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Broader economic growth "especially for black families" preferential government contracts for black businesses. Protection from the victimization of evil white racism never mind that all the number show whites to be victimized by blacks at a rate 25x higher than the opposite. She'll tell them anything it takes to buy their votes. It's disingenuous and devious and it flies in the face of everything America is supposed to stand for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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