Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go I see 9th... http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2013&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Canton's list went from worst to first. The lists are in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I see 9th... http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2013&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1 15th against the run. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go 25th against the pass. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go 24th in total defense. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 15th against the run. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go 25th against the pass. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go 24th in total defense. . . http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2013&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go Again, for whatever reason that list is backward so the "32nd" ranked team (the Seahawks) was actually the best in total defense. The Browns were absolutely ranked 9th overall defensively last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it. Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it. Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up. Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense. No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point). http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think....... None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument.... To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose.... So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank 2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points...... 2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points... So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points..... .......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards..... Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....and, oddly enough, the team with less points was 7-9.....the team with less yards was 4-12......(so slice that up) And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this...... Carry on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think....... None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument.... To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose.... So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank 2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points...... 2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points... So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points..... .......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards..... Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points..... And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this...... Carry on.... I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric. Let's use the scenario following a turnover. If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG. The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points. That's my only issue with using points as the metric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense. No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point). 2013 Defensive Rankings.JPG http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm They have them as the 23rd ranking defense by points allowed. They were ranked 9th in yards allowed. 8th in passing yards allowed. 15th in rushing yards allowed. 7th in penalty yards. I can't tell if you're serious or you are trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric. Let's use the scenario following a turnover. If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG. The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points. That's my only issue with using points as the metric. So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense. I'm using the numbers that best support my claim....you know the same thing you were doing with Mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric. Let's use the scenario following a turnover. If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG. The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points. That's my only issue with using points as the metric. However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points. Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric. However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense. If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric. However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense. If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game. Seems contradictory to me....but you're not wrong. We saw that offense for several games in a row I think this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 But, in the end, its points that win.....and if you look at the numbers, the teams that allow the fewest points win more than the teams that allow the fewest yards....with yards, anomalies happen.....not AS much with points.... Below are the top 5 D's against PTS and Yards....and the top 5 O's in scoring and yards.....Most of the team clearly belong and are playoff bound....(on both lists)...but there are basically 4 that dont fit(non play-off teams at the moment)....note that 3 outta 4(75%) show up on the yards list.....but only 1 shows up on Points......and that 1 may actually end up in the Play-offs.... So....based on yards....Teams like the Jets and Saints can end up at the topof the rankings, while still losing.....just like the Browns did with a bad defense in 2013...0f 2014.....etc. But..based on points.... teams that control the scoring....both ways.....end up at the top of the rankings AND standings..... Defense-PTS........................YDS.................Offense-PTS.............YDS........... Broncos - 1st Broncos - 1st Panther- 1st Cardinals- 1st Bengals - 1st Seahawks-2nd Cardinals- 1st Steelers - 2nd Seahawks-2nd Panthers - 1st Patriots - 1st Patriots - 1st Chiefs - 2nd Cardinals - 1st Bengals - 1st Saints - 4th Panthers-1st Jets - 2nd Steelers - 2nd Seahawks - 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense. No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point). 2013 Defensive Rankings.JPG http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm This is scoring defense which is not the go-to metric of good defense. Just admit you read the original chart incorrectly and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Points per drive is the best metric as it allows for offenses that score quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I'm using the numbers that best support my claim....you know the same thing you were doing with Mud. Actually, I was using the numbers that best showed the comparative performance of our players. But not everybody can understand simple things like facts, so I understand the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Points per drive is the best metric as it allows for offenses that score quickly. But not defenses and special teams that give them good field position. An offense that drives 70 yards and picks up just a field goal is still better than one whose D gives them the ball 30 yards out but doesn't move at all and settles for a field goal, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 This is scoring defense which is not the go-to metric of good defense. Just admit you read the original chart incorrectly and move on. Show me ANY chart that proves that the Browns were a defensive juggernaut in 2013 then we can both move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 They were 4-12.....and still are.... Nothing really to debate there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 They were 4-12.....and still are.... Nothing really to debate there... At least you get the gist. W's & L's are the ultimate metric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Show me ANY chart that proves that the Browns were a defensive juggernaut in 2013 then we can both move on. Who said they were a defensive juggernaut? I said "weren't they top 10", you said no, you were wrong. Now you're trying to construct unrelated arguments to validate your mistake. That's really all there is to it. This didn't need to be three pages of you huffing and puffing and trying to make a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Who said they were a defensive juggernaut? I said "weren't they top 10", you said no, you were wrong. Now you're trying to construct unrelated arguments to validate your mistake. That's really all there is to it. This didn't need to be three pages of you huffing and puffing and trying to make a point. The 2013 Browns defense sucked, I don't give a rat's ass how you want to spin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 The 2013 Browns defense sucked, I don't give a rat's ass how you want to spin it. Fortunately, your misguided opinion on things has zero effect on how they actually are. If it did, I'm sure this world would be a much different place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 Bottom line, we give up too many points, AND too many yards. No matter how you slice it, we're aren't getting the job done. We don't get consistent pressure on the QB, we don't force enough turnovers, and we give up too many touchdowns instead of forcing FG's (I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing we aren't a good red zone defense). Oh, and we don't stop the run...haven't in a while. We lack skill at the OLB position. Our secondary was devastated by injuries. We haven't tackled well (for the most part), and we have a severe lack of true play makers. Our first round picks haven't made the impact we'd hoped for, and that really hurts us. Shelton is doing "ok" for a rookie, and he plays a position that doesn't generally produce eye-popping numbers. It's not a glamorous position, and from what I read, he's making some rookie mistakes, but also holding his own at times. I wish I could say the same about Gilbert, who appears to be on his way out. Not getting ANY production out of the #8 pick cripples a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 We don't get consistent pressure on the QB.....we don't force enough turnovers.....We lack skill at the OLB position.....Our secondary was devastated by injuries.....We haven't tackled well...... we have a severe lack of true play makers.....Our first round picks haven't made the impact we'd hoped for.... Well....that about sums it up.... And all because Kruger and Armonty had to cover a pass route.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Today I saw a clear example of a prepared Defense that was simply overmatched. Time after time our D was ready for the PA that SEA threw at us. Even roll outs with designed screen throwbacks were defended. Only a couple naked boots worked... and then just barely... That's preparation... that's discipline.... that's scheme. So where'd the loss come from? Losing individual match-ups... In the first half it was in the secondary. In the second in was in the front seven. And here's the kicker... Seattle is not that talented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Seattle is not that talented. But more talented than the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 But more talented than the Browns. Absolutely... especially on the Defensive side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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