Which Qb Goes Where?

[hoorta]

Nope - I've never been desperate. The desperation moves were drafting Manziel, Weeden, and Quinn. All 3 of which I was opposed to - which means I'm right 100% of the time (obviously).

 

lol... Did you mutter, "Oh, no...," all three times when the fact that we had traded up was announced?

 

Tour- Steve got riled when I posted as much. "It's a sin if we draft Quinn", Slapped my head when we took the clay pigeon bustin' Wee-done, and almost threw up when Johnny Money sign got called. I got a draft track record as good as those darn chickens. FWIW, I'm not 100% sold on Goff yet- but it's getting close.

 

And if you really want to throw up- take a look at who we could have had the year after we drafted Quinn with the first round pick we gave Dallas in 2008. Only about 11 Pro Bowlers, and a couple of guys who are still playing in the NFL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_draft

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

See that is funny.....no where does he say that he will reach for a QB that isn't talented enough. He has given a dozen interviews, and the one I heard on WKNR.....he said essentially "yes, if a QB is good enough to take at #2 we will take him....but if not we won't.

 

Here is the exact quote:

If there’s a QB at pick No. 2 or pick No. 32 that we feel is the best option, the best fit for our team, we need to go get him,” Jackson said Sunday. “I’m sitting here today because John Harbaugh gave me an opportunity to draft and develop Joe Flacco.”

California’s Jared Goff, Memphis’ Paxton Lynch, Michigan State’s Connor Cook and North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz are among the top quarterback options. Jackson said he’ll spend a lot of time evaluating the quarterback class but won’t force the issue at the top of the draft if the player isn’t worthy.

“If he’s good enough, I am not against it,” Jackson said on WKNR 850-AM. “But if he’s not, then obviously we don’t want to take one just to take one

http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2016/01/17/284520/

 

 

Right, and you're basing your evaluation of "not talented enough" on fictional things that Bill Polian may or may not have said, while trying to back it up with nothing.

 

Fact is that you were wrong about your "evaluation" of these guys, that they aren't considered second round talent, and that we will more than likely be taking one in the draft. These are first round QB's who have higher grades than any of the last two draft class QB's.

 

This is yet another instance of Gipper shoving his foot in his mouth, then trying to argue his way out of it with nothing.

[bbedward]

 

 

Tour- Steve got riled when I posted as much. "It's a sin if we draft Quinn", Slapped my head when we took the clay pigeon bustin' Wee-done, and almost threw up when Johnny Money sign got called. I got a draft track record as good as those darn chickens. FWIW, I'm not 100% sold on Goff yet- but it's getting close.

 

And if you really want to throw up- take a look at who we could have had the year after we drafted Quinn with the first round pick we gave Dallas in 2008. Only about 11 Pro Bowlers, and a couple of guys who are still playing in the NFL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_draft

2011 trade down left us with Phil Taylor, Weeden, and Greg Little

 

We could have had the likes of Julio Jones, JJ Watt, Robert Quinn....

[Tacosman]

All three of these qbs imo could definately go either way....could be blaine gabbert or could be very good. We won't know until....we know. Anyone who says they know how they will turn out(like we knew how peyton manning would be great or we knew how danny weurful would be terrible) is FOS. But regardless of what their grades from some sites are(and each side is cherry picking...the reality is with all three prospects opinions vary a good bit), I'm not seeing a ton of hype or buzz for these guys.....maybe thats because they aren't 'famous' and neither played at a big school....who knows. What a couple others said about teams being skittish to give up a lot because of the RG3 trade doesn't ring true though- if anything, teams are so desparate for a young franchise qb in the nfl today that they are more likely to make a godfather type offer for even the chance of getting that elusive young franchise qb. Thats how much that is valued in today's nfl. And if any of these three guys do develop a ton of buzz as being a likely franchise qb, then you can bet teams will want to move up into that 1 slot to get them....thats the way young qbs are valued in todays nfl. At other positions the "can't give up too much for one pick" rings true, but not for 22 year old qbs......

[jiggins7919]

Let's say we draft Goff, and our talent boys think he's worthy of the #2 pick. Why would it be different THIS time?

 

I think a lot of things could potentially be different. For one, we have Josh McCown. I know, I know...he's not the second coming of Joe Montana, but how nice would it be to have a young QB that DOESN'T have the weight of the world on his shoulders during his first season? McCown appeared to put up with Manziel's crap, and by all accounts, really tried to help the kid. We all know how that worked out, but the point is McCown relishes the role of a "player coach", and seems to enjoy passing on his knowledge to the young guys. He frequently talks about his mentoring role, and I don't think I've ever heard one negative thing about Josh as a teammate. What I read about Goff is that he's a film room junkie and a stand up guy. There's a good chance Goff and McCown could hit it off, and Goff wouldn't be thrown out there with mediocre talent around him and down 20 points a game.

 

Now, McCown has shown the propensity of getting hurt just about every year. In fact, I don't think he's made it through a 16 game season without missing a few. So even if Josh wins the starting role again, there's a good chance we'll see Goff at some point. But let's say Josh DOES start all 16 games, and we don't need to play Goff just yet. Goff works hard, does his thing, and earns the starting spot in 2017. By that time, our new talent gurus have assembled a better team, and we have some weapons. It's plausible, right? Hope springs eternal. We need a bunch of things to go right, but isn't it about damn time they DID go right?

 

If McCown is our starting QB in 2016, I think it will be difficult to have our shiny new QB on the bench, but I think Browns fans will be totally cool with it. Not that coaches really care what the fans think, but I don't think you're going to hear a bunch of fans clamoring for Goff if we start out 1-5. Browns fans don't want to "ruin" another QB, and many fans that I know of seem to like McCown as a starter. He wasn't great last year, but it wasn't like he had a killer running game, dominant defense, or playmakers all over the field. I'm curious to see what McCown can do with Josh Gordon (as I'm sure many people are). Gary Barnidge, Travis Benjamin, Josh Gordon, WR Doctson in the second round...and all of the sudden, we have the beginnings of an offense.

[Tour2ma]

Pretty much.

I took a graduated path... The announcement of each trade was a little different...

With Quinn languishing in the super-secret, Green Room it was "Oh no..."

With Wheezy playing with the propeller on his beanie, it was "Oh shit.."

With Johnny... Oh Fuck!

 

Someday we'll have to discuss which was the best pick of this lot.

 

If we do end up taking Goff #2, he sure as hell won't sit a year. If you are drafted #2 overall, you play....period.

Punctuation should be "question mark?"

 

True for every position except QB. The plan for nearly every QB taken since Luck and RG3 has been for them to sit, but you hope the new kid takes the job away from your veteran mentor.

[Tour2ma]

And, since we're on the subject:

What's odd is Kiper ranks Lynch higher, but his Mock has us taking Goff.

 

Covering his bets?

[BaconHound]

Browns draft Kevin Hogan in the 3rd round

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

What's odd is Kiper ranks Lynch higher, but his Mock has us taking Goff.

 

Covering his bets?

That was also from around Christmas, his thoughts may have changed recently. I don't have access to his most recent big board but I assume it can't be drastically different.

 

I actually like all three of these quarterbacks for different reasons. Goff is the safest bet, but Lynch has intriguing upside and Wentz is like the perfect mix between the two.

[bbedward]

That was also from around Christmas, his thoughts may have changed recently. I don't have access to his most recent big board but I assume it can't be drastically different.

 

I actually like all three of these quarterbacks for different reasons. Goff is the safest bet, but Lynch has intriguing upside and Wentz is like the perfect mix between the two.

Wentz is concerning because what's the sample size?

 

He's had arm injuries in high school and broke his throwing wrist this season (out 2 months).

 

There's other scouting things I can say that are concerning about him, but ultimately I think the senior bowl and combine will be way more important for Wentz than any other QB prospect.

 

I'm all about overrating the mental attributes and technical attributes rather than the physical ones nowadays, that's also part of the reason I don't see Wentz on that high of a level.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Wentz is concerning because what's the sample size?

 

He's had arm injuries in high school and broke his throwing wrist this season (out 2 months).

 

There's other scouting things I can say that are concerning about him, but ultimately I think the senior bowl and combine will be way more important for Wentz than any other QB prospect.

 

I'm all about overrating the mental attributes and technical attributes rather than the physical ones nowadays, that's also part of the reason I don't see Wentz on that high of a level.

 

That's interesting to me because Wentz is probably the most cerebral of the big three. He has the most experience with pro concepts, the most experience with full field reads, the most experience under center, and is rather technically sound.

 

Goff is a natural passer and exhibits great control of the offense, but the question remains how well he'll grasp pro concepts (like identifying zone defenses, something that gave him trouble this year) and how well he'll react to moving under center. Those are things that Wentz is already adept at.

 

Wentz's flaws are more in the level of competition and his lack of elite level arm strength than any mental aspects. And as I've said before, arm strength has never been a detractor for me. Nor has competition level.

[bbedward]

That's interesting to me because Wentz is probably the most cerebral of the big three. He has the most experience with pro concepts, the most experience with full field reads, the most experience under center, and is rather technically sound.

 

Goff is a natural passer and exhibits great control of the offense, but the question remains how well he'll grasp pro concepts (like identifying zone defenses, something that gave him trouble this year) and how well he'll react to moving under center. Those are things that Wentz is already adept at.

 

Wentz's flaws are more in the level of competition and his lack of elite level arm strength than any mental aspects. And as I've said before, arm strength has never been a detractor for me. Nor has competition level.

Goff makes full field reads and runs pro routes with 4-5 receivers - he just hasn't run under center.

 

Wentz as I can see has the injury questions, footwork issues, issues out of the pocket, issues on touch on the intermediate throws, accuracy issues down field.

 

I make it sound worse than it is - there's a lot of good about him, but Goff is better in all those areas IMO.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Goff makes full field reads and runs pro routes with 4-5 receivers - he just hasn't run under center.

 

Wentz as I can see has the injury questions, footwork issues, issues out of the pocket, issues on touch on the intermediate throws, accuracy issues down field.

 

I make it sound worse than it is - there's a lot of good about him, but Goff is better in all those areas IMO.

Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.

 

Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.

 

FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.

 

There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.

[bbedward]

Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.

 

Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.

 

FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.

 

There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.

Right, but I think Goff's learning curve won't be so steep because of the things he does so well. The footwork, awareness, etc.

 

Wentz is my #2, followed by probably Prescott (I can't get behind Lynch for some reason). But I think at #2, it can't be Wentz it has to be Goff. I just love too much of what I'm seeing from him.

 

I'm always leery of a guy like Wentz who hasn't really played a lot, he had a broken wrist, and he rose to the first round out of basically nowhere. I think upside is high, but I just can't see him as the best prospect.

 

I'd happily take him as a consolation prize if he fell to #32, but that won't happen.

[Tour2ma]

Good convo, guys...

 

I don't foresee Goff having issues with the drop back. He moves too well for that and he reads D's too well. As for reading zones... I'm seen him go and throw to third options a couple times against what appeared to be zones. And so far I have seen him force two throws total.

 

 

Just spent an hour with Lynch adding three games to the list. I think I saw less than a half dozen reads total and they were all on roll-outs when the field was halved. What I did see was a one-read wonder, but one who often studied that read closely... and then drops his eyes and runs. He forced a few throws a game.

 

Does Memphis send in pre-snap adjustments from the sideline?

 

Definitely a physical talent, but he does shorten himself with his normal, 1/4-sidearm delivery which often seems like more of a push than a throw. Oddly when he really cranks a throw he shortens himself even more with an exaggerated shoulder drop into a near crouch. But at least in the Memphis horizontal offense he rarely does this as he rarely cranks one. He does have a 65-yd+ arm.

 

Good straight-ahead speed, but little agility. Relies on a pump fake to throw off closing defenders. He is going to get lit up someday doing this when a disciplined, Pro LB ignores the pump.

[Tour2ma]

Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2606320-2016-nfl-draft-buyer-beware-on-memphis-quarterback-paxton-lynch

 

 

Odd thing is in the games I've broken down so far, I thought he threw a really good deep ball. He did not throw many deep except for one game (Ole Miss, I think), but I would have thought his deep percentage to be much higher.

[Mike H]

Goff makes full field reads, sure, yet a staggering number of Cal's Bear Raid offensive concepts are catch and fire, three step drop (were he under center) concepts. Granted, the NFL is slowly transitioning toward more of that philosophy, however there are still key duties he hasn't been asked to perform - and that's what keeps him from being a lock #1 overall pick and instead just a possible #1 overall.

 

Goff is also inherently behind the ball when it comes to footwork because of his lack of playing under center. His footwork may be impeccable as it stands now, but that's like saying he scored a 100% on the front side of the test - there's still another side...whereas Wentz has scored a 90% on both sides.

 

FWIW, Goff has similar accuracy issues and he starts many games slow.

 

There's always two sides of the coin - Goff isn't some completely polished, pro-ready prospect nor is Wentz some unheralded small school, perfect prototype. It's just a matter of upside, in my opinion. I believe Wentz has more upside due to his physical tools, yet has a lower floor due to his lack of competition.

This is spot on. Even with that said, I still think I like Goff's tools and upside better at pick No. 2. Just kidding, I don't know yet.

[hoorta]

Found link to a partial distribution chart for Lynch 2015 in this BleacherReport article:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2606320-2016-nfl-draft-buyer-beware-on-memphis-quarterback-paxton-lynch

 

 

Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?

[Mike H]

Here's Goff's for comparison

 

[harley45]

Either, Goff, Lynch, or Wentz would be an upgrade. The shortest one is 6'4", Wentz might be the best pro QB.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

This is spot on. Even with that said, I still think I like Goff's tools and upside better at pick No. 2. Just kidding, I don't know yet.

I like him better at #2 as well. I'd be ecstatic if we could drop four or so spots and take Wentz at #6. Maybe even #8. However, I'm a little scared he won't make it past Dallas, unless Dallas goes in for RG3 or Manziel.

 

 

Hm...I have an idea brewing.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

This is contingent on the premise that Goff goes #1 by way of a trade.

 

CLE trades #2 + 2016 fourth round pick + Johnny Manziel

 

To

 

DAL for #4 + #34 + 2017 second round pick + 2017 fourth round pick

 

Take away Manziel and calculate point totals, it's still asking for even compensation. Manziel just sweetens the pot for Dallas.

 

Now Dallas can get what will likely be the top rated DE (not in my eyes) + the QB that Jerry Jones wants.

 

Cleveland can get Wentz at #4, then BPA ILB/DE/OLB at picks #32 and #34, plus still have two extra picks they accrued.

 

 

(The picks probably need working, but the premise is there. We have one, possibly two, things that Dallas wants. Dallas has some picks we could certainly use.)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Tour I think someone said it before- but looking at that chart- Lynch is captain dump off short. Lots of screens & swing passes?

So was Carr.

 

 

Not that that means anything, just making an observation.

 

Sorry for the triple post, I'm on my phone in the gym. Feel free to condense if you want, mods.

[jiggins7919]

I think it's interesting that Todd McShay has Lynch rated higher than Goff. I tend to like McShay better than the other pundits, but I'm not sure I agree with him here. Obviously he's the expert and I haven't "broken down film" or anything, but I don't necessarily see it. Perhaps I could see Lynch as possibly having the higher ceiling, but I see him taking much longer to develop than Goff. Lynch has the goods, don't get me wrong, but his size and speed won't be all that impressive in the NFL. Everybody is fast, and everybody is big. Maybe not 6'7, LOL...but still.

 

I like what I hear about Goff being a "film room junkie", and a coach's dream (heard this from a few radio shows, can't verify with link).

[bbedward]

I think it's interesting that Todd McShay has Lynch rated higher than Goff. I tend to like McShay better than the other pundits, but I'm not sure I agree with him here. Obviously he's the expert and I haven't "broken down film" or anything, but I don't necessarily see it. Perhaps I could see Lynch as possibly having the higher ceiling, but I see him taking much longer to develop than Goff. Lynch has the goods, don't get me wrong, but his size and speed won't be all that impressive in the NFL. Everybody is fast, and everybody is big. Maybe not 6'7, LOL...but still.

 

I like what I hear about Goff being a "film room junkie", and a coach's dream (heard this from a few radio shows, can't verify with link).

 

It's still early really. the final rankings will likely change. They see Lynch was a rawer candidate with some mechanical issues, but huge size, elusiveness, etc.

 

I think when the senior bowl, combine, and pro days are all said and done by March/April we'll end up with #1 Goff, #2/#3 Wentz/Lynch.

 

I think Goff's combine/pro day gives him the chance to solidify his spot as the consensus #1, while Wentz stands to benefit the most from all the scouting events - could be the difference between him going top 15 and going 2nd round or later. Only because Wentz is more of an unknown at this point.

[jiggins7919]

Completely agree. It's WAY early, and things always change so much. I see Wentz as a potential candidate to absolutely skyrocket. Some team will fall in love with him.

[jrb12711]

Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.

[bbedward]

Let me ask a different question about Wentz- what's the word on his wrist injury? I'm reading around of course but I'm curious if anyone has done more digging on it.

 

Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.

 

Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)

 

Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Fractured his throwing wrist, had surgery in October. Missed the rest of the season until a couple weeks ago played the FCS championship game against Jacksonville State.

 

Played like trash against Jacksonville State. 1 TD, 2 interceptions, 55% completion. Though he did have a couple of rushing touchdowns... (One interception was an incredible play by the DB, but shows his deep accuracy needs some consistency)

 

Personally I don't understand the hype from what I've seen so far, but we'll see. I see him staring down guys, I don't really see him throwing guys open (or throwing with anticipation)

 

 

I'm going to chalk this up to prospect blindness, because I'd hate to think you really think those things about Wentz. You seem like you know what you're talking about with Goff, and Wentz doesn't display those qualities in the least.

 

It happened to me two years ago with Bortles - I liked everything about him and failed to see anything good in any other prospects. I believed Bortles to be head and shoulders above the rest, which didn't allow me to correctly evaluate the rest of the crop.

[bbedward]

 

 

I'm going to chalk this up to prospect blindness, because I'd hate to think you really think those things about Wentz. You seem like you know what you're talking about with Goff, and Wentz doesn't display those qualities in the least.

 

It happened to me two years ago with Bortles - I liked everything about him and failed to see anything good in any other prospects. I believed Bortles to be head and shoulders above the rest, which didn't allow me to correctly evaluate the rest of the crop.

 

I've seen more Goff than Wentz, but I didn't really say much about him I think is wrong.

 

I like his size, frame, arm strength, composure, accuracy in general is good - sometimes inconsistent. The 2 picks against Jacksonville state were caused by being slightly behind and one was more of a great play by the DB. He had a deep ball that was thrown behind and inside - his receivers had to turn, stop, adjust a lot of the time rather than catching in stride. Though this was the first game in 2 months post-injury, I've seen pretty much the entire jacksonville state game and only portions of the other games.

 

I've seen a poor feel for timing routes. He's pretty good under pressure which seems to be pretty often, though - he knows when to tuck it down and run and does it pretty well.

 

He's thrown it to a lot of super tight windows, but other times he's behind, underthrown, overthrown.

 

I guess trash against jacksonville state isn't very fair to say. He played fine, but it wasn't an incredibly impressive day through the air for him though. Certainly not the best of his (short) season.

 

The upside is there, he has a big frame and the physical attributes you want. He has the arm, accuracy in general, release, seems to have good vision although he still locks onto guys, lapses on footwork sometimes, etc.

 

I'll be interested in seeing him in the senior bowl, but at this point I don't see him worth a top 5 pick. He may land at 15-22...Probably 2nd round if he does poor at the pre-draft events.

 

As far as Bortles, I guess he's pretty similar to Bortles. I liked Bortles but I didn't like him at #4 overall at the time, of course he ended up #3 overall.