BrownsKidd Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Karl Marx understood the evils of capitalism when he said that the proletariat will rise up against the bourgeoisie. We can't disagree that we are seeing that today with politicians running on "income inequality" and fast food workers wanting $15 an hour, and sit-ins like Occupy Wall Street and millennials wanting more pay with very little experience and irrelevant liberal arts degrees. Marx believed that capitalism creates an imbalance of classes, and to some degree he was right. But Socialism/Communism has shown, historically, they don't work either. I don't know if a mix of democratic socialism is the fix either. What capitalism does foster is growth, invention and ingenuity and the ability for an individual to succeed. Capitalism also aligns itself more so with our constitution. But how do we fix some of the actual extremes that Marx' predicts while keeping our constitution in tact and making sure that property and individual pursuit of life, liberty and happiness are not infringed, while, supporting those that are in honest need of help, financially, employment, etc., while decreasing the numbers of those that are habitual, lifetime, welfare recipients? I look forward to reading honest solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 You can? Let's see 'em. WSS http://www.marxist.com/zimbabwe-failure-capitalism.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Posted Yesterday, 07:00 PM Clevfan4life, on 11 Aug 2016 - 6:51 PM, said: You can? Let's see 'em. WSS ********************************************** oh, boy, this should be good.... ! Go ahead, Cleve, make our hay. http://en.internationalism.org/wr/315/zimbabwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Experience sometimes is the best teacher. After living through the horrible economy of Jimmy Carter and seeing Reagan after him have an economic boom that lasted for many years after he left office the answer is really simple. Get government off the backs of the people, lower taxes and turn the American people loose. It works amazingly well. A booming economy is the cure for all the ills and not government micromanagement. With a booming economy you have recruiters in college wooing graduates instead of grads coming out of college with no job prospects. With a booming economy employers treat employees better and pay them better. They see those employees and new employees as valuable assets instead of today as employers are looking at more at what it will cost them to hire new employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 http://en.internationalism.org/wr/315/zimbabwe I would say that isn't so much the economic system as it is that Zimbabwe is ruled by a strong man piece of shit. Mugabe regularly stole private property to "give it back to the people". That is why the farms and mines went into the shitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Reagan blew upour currency. It was a ride that could never last forever. Im tired of people giving him credit for doing things with basically blank checks handed to him. We're still paying formtje excesses of the 80's and none of u seemto get it. You whine about govt spending constantly though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Reagan blew upour currency. It was a ride that could never last forever. Im tired of people giving him credit for doing things with basically blank checks handed to him. We're still paying formtje excesses of the 80's and none of u seemto get it. You whine about govt spending constantly though Did you read about Reagan Cleve or did you live through it? Did you live through the economic mess of the Carter years and see and experience what happened under Reagan? And don't forget Reagan was working with a democratic congress and he was only able to get tax cuts through by not cutting spending. We are almost 20 trillion in debt today with half of that coming from Obama's term alone. What do we have to show for all of Obama's spending? A powerful military..nope...a booming economy...nope... job creation...nope...our infrastructure rebuilt...nope As for Zimbabwe Cleve without even googling anything I can tell you Mugabe over there forced out thousands of prosperous white farmers from their farms solely because they were white and gave that land many times to his cronies who knew nothing about farming and the land went to waste....add to that the incompetence and corruption of Mugabe and you have the mess he created over there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Reagan blew upour currency. It was a ride that could never last forever. Im tired of people giving him credit for doing things with basically blank checks handed to him. We're still paying formtje excesses of the 80's and none of u seemto get it. You whine about govt spending constantly though "None of u"....hey now. I don't get weak in the knees and swoon every time I hear Reagan's name. I know full well that the borrowing has been going on for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 More Anti-Small Business Job Killing Policies Coming From Obama AdministrationMaybe someday politicians in Washington will read the U.S. Census data that show small businesses are responsible for over 90% of the net new jobs in America and finally understand anti-small business policies are economic suicide. http://www.redstate.com/diary/lloydchapman/2016/08/12/anti-small-business-job-killing-policies-coming-obama-administration/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 "None of u"....hey now. I don't get weak in the knees and swoon every time I hear Reagan's name. I know full well that the borrowing has been going on for awhile. Ok good u get it, at least one of you understands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 But if mugabe was socialist and forced out all those white farmers the reason for zimbabwe's collapse would be socialism and very little do with who's farming what. And this is my point. Mismanagement is mismanagement. socialism and capitalism is a continuum in any case. There is no pure socialist or capitalist country on tje planet. We're about as capitalist as there is and we've got major problems. Is that a slight against capitalism or did we mismanage our versionif it? Was the incessant commoditization of everything good for us? Wr're the most obese people on the planet so i can assure you the commoditization of our food chain is directly redponsible for that. I know alot of u will scoff but think about that as ur shoving ur midmorning snack down the piehole cause if u dont eat every 2-3 hours u get dizzy. Thats not natural for humans.... #warriordietftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 But if mugabe was socialist and forced out all those white farmers the reason for zimbabwe's collapse would be socialism and very little do with who's farming what. ********************************************* Mugabe is a socialist. Mugabe returns to socialismhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/16/zimbabwe.andrewmeldrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted August 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 But if mugabe was socialist and forced out all those white farmers the reason for zimbabwe's collapse would be socialism and very little do with who's farming what. And this is my point. Mismanagement is mismanagement. socialism and capitalism is a continuum in any case. There is no pure socialist or capitalist country on tje planet. We're about as capitalist as there is and we've got major problems. Is that a slight against capitalism or did we mismanage our versionif it? Was the incessant commoditization of everything good for us? Wr're the most obese people on the planet so i can assure you the commoditization of our food chain is directly redponsible for that. I know alot of u will scoff but think about that as ur shoving ur midmorning snack down the piehole cause if u dont eat every 2-3 hours u get dizzy. Thats not natural for humans.... #warriordietftw So your issue with capitalism is fat people and you are using it as an advertisement for fasting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 http://www.marxist.com/zimbabwe-failure-capitalism.htmYeah Cleve that's the one I put up there. From an avowed Marxist website... And bold move there pimping Mugabe. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 PS call me racist but Africa is simply fucked up. You can probably find successful socialism in some Scandinavian areas. I mean if that's the route you want to go. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Yeah Cleve that's the one I put up there. From an avowed Marxist website... And bold move there pimping Mugabe. WSS Well now remember wjat my contention was that you challenged me on....you said i couldnt find any articles. I couldnt give a rats fuck about the content of these links, some of its right some of its wrong im sure. And whete the fuck did i pimp mugabe? Do you know how pimping is used in a sentence properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Well now remember wjat my contention was that you challenged me on....you said i couldnt find any articles. I couldnt give a rats fuck about the content of these links, some of its right some of its wrong im sure. And whete the fuck did i pimp mugabe? Do you know how pimping is used in a sentence properly? Yes Einstein Mugabi is now a socialist. One of yours. And since you seem to be reading challenged I said go ahead and post them. Not that their warrant some hard left sites that extol the virtues of Marxism. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I dont giveba fuck what mugabe is now. Why do you think i give a fuck? Ur brain is still stuck on this narrative that i was offering a defense of socialism, i wasnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I dont giveba fuck what mugabe is now. Why do you think i give a fuck? Ur brain is still stuck on this narrative that i was offering a defense of socialism, i wasnt Well then maybe you should strive toward more clarity in your posts. If it's a simple comparison I believe socialism will fuck up Society more than capitalism given equal circumstances. Because of human nature. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Thats a fair opinion ur entitled to it, my only point was that the collapse of economies is orders of magnitude more complicated than...."oh they were socialists thats why" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 http://en.internationalism.org/wr/315/zimbabwe Yep. bitch about fox news, and you use a communist site as your source? How DO you libs get to twerk and complain and chew gum at the same time? He was a socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Yep. bitch about fox news, and you use a communist site as your source? How DO you libs get to twerk and complain and chew gum at the same time? He was a socialist. Cal, now i went over this with steve....what did i say was the purpose of that link? Hint: i wasnt posting it as a reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Did you read about Reagan Cleve or did you live through it? Did you live through the economic mess of the Carter years and see and experience what happened under Reagan? And don't forget Reagan was working with a democratic congress and he was only able to get tax cuts through by not cutting spending. We are almost 20 trillion in debt today with half of that coming from Obama's term alone. What do we have to show for all of Obama's spending? A powerful military..nope...a booming economy...nope... job creation...nope...our infrastructure rebuilt...nope As for Zimbabwe Cleve without even googling anything I can tell you Mugabe over there forced out thousands of prosperous white farmers from their farms solely because they were white and gave that land many times to his cronies who knew nothing about farming and the land went to waste....add to that the incompetence and corruption of Mugabe and you have the mess he created over there https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/us-public-defrauded-hidden-cost-iraq-war https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/01/08/guess-what-barack-obama-has-been-a-great-president-for-job-creation/?utm_term=.60ae0145c71a Obama is far from perfect and infrastructure and outsourcing have been an issue since Clinton I but stop with misinformation on jobs and debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 alleged purpose. Your ulterior motives are showing, Cleve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/us-public-defrauded-hidden-cost-iraq-war https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/01/08/guess-what-barack-obama-has-been-a-great-president-for-job-creation/?utm_term=.60ae0145c71a Obama is far from perfect and infrastructure and outsourcing have been an issue since Clinton I but stop with misinformation on jobs and debt. Obama is far from perfect terrible and infrastructure and outsourcing have been an issue since Clinton I but stop with misinformation truth telling on jobs and debt. ********** Obama Will Be the Only President In US History to Never Achieve a Year of 3% GDP Growth http://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2016/08/02/obama-will-president-us-history-never-achieve-year-3-gdp-growth/ Sorry, This Is Still The Worst Economic Recovery Ever http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obamanomics-gets-f-grade-for-failing-to-create-economic-growth-jobs/ Report: Worst economic recovery since 1930s, salaries fall $17,000 short http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-worst-economic-recovery-since-1930s-salaries-fall-17000-short/article/2598311 $20 trillion man: National debt nearly doubles during Obama presidency http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/1/obama-presidency-to-end-with-20-trillion-national-/ How Good Is Job Growth? The Chart Obama Doesn’t Want You To See http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/how-good-is-job-growth-the-chart-obama-doesnt-want-you-to-see/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Obama Will Be the Only President In US History to Never Achieve a Year of 3% GDP Growth http://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2016/08/02/obama-will-president-us-history-never-achieve-year-3-gdp-growth/ Sorry, This Is Still The Worst Economic Recovery Ever http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obamanomics-gets-f-grade-for-failing-to-create-economic-growth-jobs/ Report: Worst economic recovery since 1930s, salaries fall $17,000 short http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-worst-economic-recovery-since-1930s-salaries-fall-17000-short/article/2598311 $20 trillion man: National debt nearly doubles during Obama presidencyhttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/1/obama-presidency-to-end-with-20-trillion-national-/ I guess bold means business. I have said that economy is still an issue but to believe the problem started in 2008 is moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I guess bold means business. I have said that economy is still an issue but to believe the problem started in 2008 is moronic. More like 2006 when the Democrats took control of the houses? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I guess bold means business. I have said that economy is still an issue but to believe the problem started in 2008 is moronic. On July 3, 2008 -- the day before Independence Day -- Barack Obama said that adding $4 trillion in debt was irresponsible and "unpatriotic. Obama: The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents - #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back -- $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That's irresponsible. It's unpatriotic. ****When Obama leaves office the national debt will be 20 trillion dollars........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 okay........waiting.... for Tour's mexican hat dance to defend obamao on that one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 I look forward to reading honest solutions. Generally knowledgeable post... Exception seems to be an understanding of what "Occupy" was about, but that aside. The fix was a progressive income tax with top rates in excess of 50%. That those who benefit the most from the system owe the most to the system was the socialistic cap on a capitalist system. Not only is that cap gone, albeit not gone enough for supply-siders, but now the continuous assault on "the death tax" seems to be rising. An oligarchy is as much the enemy of capitalism as socialism. A fix? Eliminate the cap on payroll taxes for SS and Medicare, while reducing the rate as much as possible without endangering the solvency of either program. Another term for this would be make payroll taxes true flat taxes. And FFS do not repeal the estate tax... which only impacts about 0.2% of the population. If you want to do something for the cash-poor/land-rich farmer/rancher... let's talk, but a wholesale repeal is unacceptable. The other major issue, and one for which I have no solution, is corporate attitude towards their employees. Once they were the atop the list of "stakeholders" in any given company. Then somewhere along the line a "modern" view of investors above all took hold. Where once doing an accumulation of doing small things right resulted in bottom line success, now success is predetermined and the bottom line drives actions to produce the desired result... which always has to be better than the previous result. Experience sometimes is the best teacher. After living through the horrible economy of Jimmy Carter and seeing Reagan after him have an economic boom that lasted for many years after he left office the answer is really simple. Get government off the backs of the people, lower taxes and turn the American people loose. It works amazingly well. A booming economy is the cure for all the ills and not government micromanagement. With a booming economy you have recruiters in college wooing graduates instead of grads coming out of college with no job prospects. With a booming economy employers treat employees better and pay them better. They see those employees and new employees as valuable assets instead of today as employers are looking at more at what it will cost them to hire new employees. Ah.... the "feel" trumps "facts" argument... Economy: Domestic GDP declined under Reagan... reversing 30 years of a general rise... including the Carter years. (Sorry but the chart won't imbed due to its "type") http://www.multpl.com/us-gdp-growth-rate Size of Government: Executive branch employment is lower and fell under Obama (2009 - 2.77mm -->2014 - 2.66mm) than it was under Reagan when it rose (1981 - 2.81mm --> 1988 - 3.05mm). https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/total-government-employment-since-1962/ What's it like to feel the government on your back? One more thing... you show me a booming economy and I'll show you one that's going to bust soon. Thus the saw tooth GDP growth pre-'82 and decline post-'82. Things finally quieted in '92 under Clinton and after some nice table setting under GHWB... continued under GWB excepting the 911 recession until the housing bubble burst. Since then been steady and sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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