ballpeen Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 It is hard to discuss what was said. Cribbs said we did. But what was actually said? We may have said we would look at it and he took that to mean we would do something about it. The language used in many cases is the key, and people have a tendency to hear what they want to hear in situations like this. If we said we would look at it...maybe we have and he doesn't like the conclusion?? I don't know what was said so at this point I can't consider that unless something very definitive surfaces. All I can do is consider the facts as I see them, and right now it isn't much in favor of the course Cribbs and his agent have chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We need Tom Tupa Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 It is hard to discuss what was said. Cribbs said we did. But what was actually said? We may have said we would look at it and he took that to mean we would do something about it. The language used in many cases is the key, and people have a tendency to hear what they want to hear in situations like this. If we said we would look at it...maybe we have and he doesn't like the conclusion?? I don't know what was said so at this point I can't consider that unless something very definitive surfaces. All I can do is consider the facts as I see them, and right now it isn't much in favor of the course Cribbs and his agent have chosen. John Taylor cites 4 sources now saying that Savage and Crennel made promises to Cribbs. And other sources saying that Cribbs got a call from Lerner right after the Pitt game. Lerner isnt disputing what was said on the phone; he's saying the call was never made. He's calling Cribbs and Taylor's sources liars. To me, this isnt a great way to treat a hard working player. As for the course Cribbs has chosen, all he is asking for is some incentives in his deal that would pay out if he gets used a lot on offense. Can somebody, ANYBODY, please tell me what problem you have with this? And please address this current situation. I find it hard to believe there will be a negative precedent set here. Are we really worried that we will have many future STers start taking snaps at QB/RB and ask for incentives to be added to his current contract? I find it hard to believe that's a big concern. This is a very unique situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Who's Cribb's agent? And who else does he represent? This may tell more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 John Taylor cites 4 sources now saying that Savage and Crennel made promises to Cribbs. And other sources saying that Cribbs got a call from Lerner right after the Pitt game. Lerner isnt disputing what was said on the phone; he's saying the call was never made. He's calling Cribbs and Taylor's sources liars. To me, this isnt a great way to treat a hard working player. As for the course Cribbs has chosen, all he is asking for is some incentives in his deal that would pay out if he gets used a lot on offense. Can somebody, ANYBODY, please tell me what problem you have with this? And please address this current situation. I find it hard to believe there will be a negative precedent set here. Are we really worried that we will have many future STers start taking snaps at QB/RB and ask for incentives to be added to his current contract? I find it hard to believe that's a big concern. This is a very unique situation. Who's to say that his current contract doesn't includes money for extra playing time already? I don't think Mangini has any concrete plans for Cribbs anyways. He'll remain on special teams and be expected to continue his current role, I don't see Mangini inventing an offense tailored to Cribbs. Therefor a need for incentives isn't completely neccessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Cleveland Browns' Josh Cribbs to ask for trade if Browns won't budge by By Mary Kay Cabot Tuesday May 19, 2009, 10:56 AM Browns receiver Josh Cribbs will definitely ask to be traded if the Browns tell him they won't re-do his contract, multiple sources close to the situation said Tuesday. As expected, Cribbs did not show up for the first day of voluntary minicamp Tuesday because there's been no "meaningful dialogue'' yet on a new contract. Cribbs' agent, J.R. Rickert, said the Browns told him they might be willing to open discussions Tuesday. "We exchanged emails Monday night, but there were no proposals made or numbers discussed,'' said Rickert. "We need to have some substantial talks for Josh to show up.'' Cribbs has four years remaining on the six-year, $6.7 million extension he signed in November of 2006 with his previous agents. His base salaries over the next four years are $620,000, $635,000, $650,000 and $790,000. The starting point for Cribbs' side is Devin Hester's four-year, $40 million extension with $15 million guaranteed. Rickert said he also has phone records to prove that Browns owner Randy Lerner told Cribbs and his representatives that Cribbs would receive a new deal this offseason. Lerner has said he made no such promise. A source said Cribbs is upset the Browns are denying such statements were made. Cribbs' absence is significant, because he's slated for key roles at strong safety and nickel corner. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 So much for incentives- he is asking for alot more than incentives. Bye Josh its been real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 strong safety and nickel corner..... riiiiiiiight...... that says all i need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Who's Cribb's agent? And who else does he represent? This may tell more! To answer my own question (Cribbs' agent, J.R. Rickert), his client list: Robbie Agnone.............Tight End.......................Washington Redskins Lorenzo Alexander........Off/Def ........................Lineman Washington Redskins Brandon Archer ...........Linebacker ....................Washington Redskins JJ Arrington..................Running Back ................Denver Broncos Jordan Babineaux ........Defensive Back ..............Seattle Seahawks Correll Buckhalter.........Running Back ................Denver Broncos Greg Camarillo.............Receiver .......................Miami Dolphins Jeremy Clark...............Defensive Lineman .........New York Giants Joshua Cribbs............Receiver/Returner ........Cleveland Browns Jason Davis.................Fullback Chicago ............Bears Marlon Davis.............Offensive Guard ...........Cleveland Browns Jermichael Finley........*Tight End .......................Green Bay Packers Dashon Goldson..........*Safety San ....................Francisco 49ers Letroy Guion...............Defensive Lineman ..........Minnesota Vikings William Hayes.............Defensive End ................ Tennessee Titans Kyries Hebert..............Safety ............................Cincinnati Bengals Artis Hicks..................Offensive Lineman ............Minnesota Vikings Jamaal Jackson...........Center .............................Philadelphia Eagles Ellis Lankster...............Cornerback .....................Buffalo Bills Cleo Lemon................Quarterback .....................Jacksonville Jaguars Nate Livings................Offensive Lineman ............Cincinnati Bengals Tom Malone................Punter .............................New England Patriots Ryan McBean..............Defensive Lineman ...........Denver Broncos Brandon McDonald.....Defensive Back .............Cleveland Browns Billy McMullen..............Receiver ..........................Seattle Seahawks Sam McNaulty.............Offensive Lineman .............New Orleans Saints Cam Morrah................Tight End ..........................Seattle Seahawks Terrence Nunn.............Receiver ..........................New England Patriots Chris Ogbannaya.........Running Back ...................St. Louis Rams Samie Parker...............Receiver ..........................Oakland Raiders Mike Patterson..............Defensive Tackle ..............Philadelphia Eagles LaJuan Ramsey...........*Defensive Lineman ...........Tennessee Titans Stefan Rodgers.............Offensive Lineman ............Jacksonville Jaguars Frostee Rucker..............Defensive End .................Cincinnati Bengals Joe Thomas..............*Offensive Lineman ..........Cleveland Browns Jonathan Wade.............Cornerback ......................St. Louis Rams Daniel Wilcox................Tight End .........................Baltimore Ravens ---------------------------------------- I think AGENTS see the Browns SAVED MONEY trading down and want the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 To answer my own question (Cribbs' agent, J.R. Rickert): Robbie Agnone.............Tight End.......................Washington Redskins Lorenzo Alexander........Off/Def ........................Lineman Washington Redskins Brandon Archer ...........Linebacker ....................Washington Redskins JJ Arrington..................Running Back ................Denver Broncos Jordan Babineaux ........Defensive Back ..............Seattle Seahawks Correll Buckhalter.........Running Back ................Denver Broncos Greg Camarillo.............Receiver .......................Miami Dolphins Jeremy Clark...............Defensive Lineman .........New York Giants Joshua Cribbs............Receiver/Returner ........Cleveland Browns Jason Davis.................Fullback Chicago ............Bears Marlon Davis.............Offensive Guard ...........Cleveland Browns Jermichael Finley........*Tight End .......................Green Bay Packers Dashon Goldson..........*Safety San ....................Francisco 49ers Letroy Guion...............Defensive Lineman ..........Minnesota Vikings William Hayes.............Defensive End ................ Tennessee Titans Kyries Hebert..............Safety ............................Cincinnati Bengals Artis Hicks..................Offensive Lineman ............Minnesota Vikings Jamaal Jackson...........Center .............................Philadelphia Eagles Ellis Lankster...............Cornerback .....................Buffalo Bills Cleo Lemon................Quarterback .....................Jacksonville Jaguars Nate Livings................Offensive Lineman ............Cincinnati Bengals Tom Malone................Punter .............................New England Patriots Ryan McBean..............Defensive Lineman ...........Denver Broncos Brandon McDonald.....Defensive Back .............Cleveland Browns Billy McMullen..............Receiver ..........................Seattle Seahawks Sam McNaulty.............Offensive Lineman .............New Orleans Saints Cam Morrah................Tight End ..........................Seattle Seahawks Terrence Nunn.............Receiver ..........................New England Patriots Chris Ogbannaya.........Running Back ...................St. Louis Rams Samie Parker...............Receiver ..........................Oakland Raiders Mike Patterson..............Defensive Tackle ..............Philadelphia Eagles LaJuan Ramsey...........*Defensive Lineman ...........Tennessee Titans Stefan Rodgers.............Offensive Lineman ............Jacksonville Jaguars Frostee Rucker..............Defensive End .................Cincinnati Bengals Joe Thomas..............*Offensive Lineman ..........Cleveland Browns Jonathan Wade.............Cornerback ......................St. Louis Rams Daniel Wilcox................Tight End .........................Baltimore Ravens Wow. His agent must be raking in the cash!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Wow. His agent must be raking in the cash!! I know, not many big names there but I brought it up so I posted it when I found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budcarson Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Best case at this point would be that both sides are willing to negotiate and all of this is posturing for better leverage. I'm not used to seeing posturing going this far or getting this personal in only one day, and if I were Cribbs and I were telling the truth, it would take a lot of dough at this point to make me forget the tone of the team's public declarations - coming all the way from the top. This isn't Savage firing off a dumb email - the statement uses the owner's name and basically calls Cribbs a liar. Before getting too angry, though, Cribbs needs to realize that the length of his existing contract severely limits his leverage here. One of the only respectable things I've seen the Bengals do over the years was coming out and saying that Chad Johnson was under contract and wasn't going to be able to force his way into more money or out of town. These things usually end better for both sides when done amicably and behind closed doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Wow. His agent must be raking in the cash!! But he isn't making any off of Josh unless Josh has hired him to perform personal services such as taxes or matters of the estate. Most agents make the majority of their money from the amount of guaranteed money they negotiate for their client. We will see what sort of proof he has.....taped conversation?? Either way, it doesn't matter. They see a NEW contract which I assume will be to include more signing bonus money. We hold the cards. I would tell him we won't trade him under any circumstance if he holds out and are prepared to just put him on the shelf for the next 4 years if he decides to hold out that long. The guy is beginning to remind me of Northcutt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dencyguy Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 As has already been mentioned, I'll start holding players' feet to the fire once people start doing the same for front offices who cut players halfway through a contract. The new angle--Cribbs wanting to be traded--doesn't change that a bit. I don't see how players who demand to be traded if their contracts aren't reworked are substantially different from GM/owners who announce that while they'd really love to have the players back on the team--nod nod, wink wink--they're just not sure if they'll be able to keep them on the roster unless they restructure their contracts. For salary cap purposes, you see. In both cases, the agent/GM says the same thing: nice team you have here...sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it. I don't like it when either side does it. But if one side can do it, the other side should be able to as well. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl4tinum Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 It's gotten out of hand, and it's only getting worse. Cribbs is an amazing player, but this is a new regime, and you have to prove your worth all over again. If he wanted to hold out for money he should have done it last year. I'm with Mangini and the Browns on this one. Cribbs signed that contract, and it wasn't a pretty one at all. He wanted security, because he wasn't sure how good he was going to be. It may have made some sense at the time, but 6 years? One year in, he wanted it redone. I have to say, that's bullshit. Especially for a guy who wasn't even drafted. If the Browns want to stick it to him and trade him, that's fine. Giving him Devin Hester money is totally out of the question, and f--king Retarded of Cribbs to expect. Hell, I'd just let him sit until he shows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Hell, I'd just let him sit until he shows up. LOL....we could mess with the guy if we wanted. Issue a statement saying we like Josh and hope he returns to the Browns, but if he decides to sit out the next 4 years, we already feel like we got our money's worth out of him seeing how little we had invested in him. Treat hold-outs like a terrorist..we don't negotiate with hold-outs could be another press release. LOL. Just having fun for those who think i am serious...we should always operate in good faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We need Tom Tupa Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 This is amazing to me. What does a player have to do to get any support from you guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 This is amazing to me. What does a player have to do to get any support from you guys? superbowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We need Tom Tupa Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 superbowl Cribbs takes the blame for not winning a SB? Not the team owner that is on his 5th HC in less than a decade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choco Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 By the way, he was #16 in average yards per kickoff and #17 in average yards per punt. I just don't think he's doing himself any good going for the money now instead of after this season. dude...you didn't hear? he's our 2nd most important player..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Cribbs takes the blame for not winning a SB? Not the team owner that is on his 5th HC in less than a decade? Come on Tupa, if he wants incentives i could see it through. If he wants to throw out the old contract then no way. Cribbs has been a bright spot for many fans, but this won't endeer him to many more. Realistically he is just a special teams player that the fans have alot of dreams for. I think the real riff is going to be the he said she said bs about a phone call that did or di not happen. I would like him back but at this point i want people who want to play just to make up for the shitfest of last year, you go 4-12 and thinks its time to ask for more cash. Not good business and bad luck for JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 A contract is as good as the paper it's written on. Also, contracts are WRITTEN to prevent mis-understandings. Right Zombo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aloysius Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 By the way, he was #16 in average yards per kickoff and #17 in average yards per punt. I think people in the league realize why his stats were down. The guy rushed back from a high ankle sprain and lost one of his best blockers to injury (Lennie Friedman). He was hobbled and didn't have as many holes to run through; anyone facing those conditions would see their stats decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtownBrownsBacker Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 This is amazing to me. What does a player have to do to get any support from you guys? Honor his contract and work the proper way to get it redone, through his agent, not the media. BTW, his agent today said he isn't looking for Hester money, but something in the ballpark. So much for a few incentives. After I closed my golf shop and retired I signed a contract with the USGA as a tournament official for $250 per event and expenses. Six months later I found out that guys were put on full time and paid a salary that had less qualifications, I honored my contract. My duties also got expanded because I styarted doing equipment tests due to changes in the USGA rules. I was like an UDA because I didn't come up through the USGA ranks. I talked to my boss and my boss's boss and they agreed to providing me with a 4 week advance schedule and a quarterly bonus for each qtr I worked 6 or more events. Point is Cribbs signed a contract he thought fair and he wanted, with quaranteed money up front, not yearly roster bonuses. I believe it was a 4 year extension to his existing contract, not a new contract. He also was awarded a pro bowl bonus after 2007 even though it was not in his contract as was Anderson (how much, I don't recall). He gets a $25,000 bonus for attending OTAs and he does have some incentives built into this contract. Bottom line is if he does it the right way, Lerner and the Browns have proven to be more then responsive to player's contract demands. This organization can never be accused of being tight with their money. But, like Winslow, you don't keep giving guys a new contract every other year, especially when they take the money up front and agree to lower yearly non guaranteed salaries. I agree the player's have a short window to make money, but the team also has a budget and a salary cap to consider. When a team pays a player up front money, they can't get it back if the player underperforms. So, when a player agrees to that he should ask for more money if he outperforms the rest of the contract. Remember contracts in the NFL don't mean crap, it's only the guaranteed money that matters. You can't ask for quaranteed money up front and then say you aren't making comparable money in salary to someone else. As much as I like Josh Cribbs, he needs to show them on the field that he deserves a new contract and I'm sure the Browns will do right by him. You just can't ask every other year and do the make me happy or I'll stay home BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budcarson Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Honor his contract and work the proper way to get it redone, through his agent, not the media. BTW, his agent today said he isn't looking for Hester money, but something in the ballpark. So much for a few incentives. After I closed my golf shop and retired I signed a contract with the USGA as a tournament official for $250 per event and expenses. Six months later I found out that guys were put on full time and paid a salary that had less qualifications, I honored my contract. My duties also got expanded because I styarted doing equipment tests due to changes in the USGA rules. I was like an UDA because I didn't come up through the USGA ranks. I talked to my boss and my boss's boss and they agreed to providing me with a 4 week advance schedule and a quarterly bonus for each qtr I worked 6 or more events. Point is Cribbs signed a contract he thought fair and he wanted, with quaranteed money up front, not yearly roster bonuses. I believe it was a 4 year extension to his existing contract, not a new contract. He also was awarded a pro bowl bonus after 2007 even though it was not in his contract as was Anderson (how much, I don't recall). He gets a $25,000 bonus for attending OTAs and he does have some incentives built into this contract. Bottom line is if he does it the right way, Lerner and the Browns have proven to be more then responsive to player's contract demands. This organization can never be accused of being tight with their money. But, like Winslow, you don't keep giving guys a new contract every other year, especially when they take the money up front and agree to lower yearly non guaranteed salaries. I agree the player's have a short window to make money, but the team also has a budget and a salary cap to consider. When a team pays a player up front money, they can't get it back if the player underperforms. So, when a player agrees to that he should ask for more money if he outperforms the rest of the contract. Remember contracts in the NFL don't mean crap, it's only the guaranteed money that matters. You can't ask for quaranteed money up front and then say you aren't making comparable money in salary to someone else. As much as I like Josh Cribbs, he needs to show them on the field that he deserves a new contract and I'm sure the Browns will do right by him. You just can't ask every other year and do the make me happy or I'll stay home BS. So what if your boss had been fired and then at the end of your quarter the USGA said "Thanks for working 6 events, but I dont know what bonus you are talking about." The up front guaranteed money argument again? So if he was just getting that $333,333 prorated into his base salary each year you would be okay with his stance? What is the right way, because it sounds from his end that he's been trying the "right way" for a couple of years, and that he was reassured that they were going to step up for him. I listened to this same debate for the last year regarding Jason Peters. Based on my experience, neither side here on this board is going to budge. But I suppose the debate is still worth having - that's almost all we can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 After signing the NEW contract LAST YEAR, didn't he UNDER perform his contract? According to Aloysius, Cribbs was #16 in returns last year. I know injuries were sited but really. Crazy thought, after signing a NEW contract, OUTPERFORM it then ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
budcarson Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 After signing the NEW contract LAST YEAR, didn't he UNDER perform his contract? According to Aloysius, Cribbs was #16 in returns last year. I know injuries were sited but really. Crazy thought, after signing a NEW contract, OUTPERFORM it then ask. Even if you prorate the $2m bonus he got at the inception of the new deal, he would go over $1,000,000 in only one of the next four years (the last year of his deal). You don't even think he's worth a million a year? The guy is making $600-700K a season. He is a good football player with a bad contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We need Tom Tupa Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 After signing the NEW contract LAST YEAR, didn't he UNDER perform his contract? According to Aloysius, Cribbs was #16 in returns last year. I know injuries were sited but really. Crazy thought, after signing a NEW contract, OUTPERFORM it then ask. He signed the new deal before the 2007 season. Then, by yardage, had the best season of any returner in history (see bud's earlier link). That's exactly what youre asking for, so I assume youre on board now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Even if you prorate the $2m bonus he got at the inception of the new deal, he would go over $1,000,000 in only one of the next four years (the last year of his deal). You don't even think he's worth a million a year? The guy is making $600-700K a season. He is a good football player with a bad contract. He JUST signed the deal last year. I didn't hold a gun to his head. His stats went down after that. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE THE GUY! What was the point of signing the contract last year?? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We need Tom Tupa Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 He JUST signed the deal last year. I didn't hold a gun to his head. His stats went down after that. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE THE GUY! What was the point of signing the contract last year?? Just curious. was last year 2006? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan in Florida Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 was last year 2006? November of 2006...I stand corrected on the date. Still the WRONG time to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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