The... I am batting (maybe alone) for the front office thread

[Tour2ma]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:25 PM, D Bone said:

Give me your opinion on the following regarding a player acquisition: 

^ Extreme example I know, and I also know that if this was my friends and me, we would probably just play rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock..... but what do you think happens in this case? I'm guessing that the Browns would sign him since Sashi loves him? 

On 11/12/2017 at 11:59 PM, Tour2ma said:

Just lost a growing write up... too late too tired to restart it now. See ya in the AM... but a partial preview is in the strikethru above and these links...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

 http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches.html

 

Now the challenge is to remember my approach from two nites ago... hmmmmm.

First... modify your example a bit. Second... Fire your Dude #3 as these guys are paid to have opinions

 

And..... F U C K.... did it again...

I need an "Undo" button... badly....

have to take this offline to a word program... back later...

[LondonBrown]

27 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Had we landed Goff and he posted the year he did in CLE in 2016, the din here would have been mindblowing. 

Oh God cant you just imagine the Sashi can’t evaluate QB he’s a lawyer comments

It may have even surpassed the current tide of comments

[Flugel]

On 11/13/2017 at 11:13 AM, The Gipper said:

Mason Rudolph?

That's the red neck pronunciation of My Son - Ma Son.

Anyway, it remains tough to translate Big 12 stats based on the lack of defense in that conference.  Then again, this lack of defense seems to go viral all over college football when Ohio State gives up over 50 points to Iowa.  The Syracuse team that beat Clemson gave up 64 points to Wake Forest while GA didn't look like they played very much defense vrs Auburn.

It looks like Ma Son has a great frame, strong arm and plenty of TD passes and yardage on the resume.  I just wonder how much de-programming his first NFL team needs to do.  Prevention always seems easier than intervention, which adds to the challenge of finding the right QB for our situation.

As fun as it is to watch Baker Mayfield, I don't know if he has a great chance in today's game. To say such a thing, I remember Drew Brees struggling so bad in his 3rd NFL season - that the Chargers used their 1st overall pick the next year on a QB. The rookie QB held out the length of camp and Brees had his first of many Pro Bowl seasons leading SD to a 12-4 record.  

[Mark O]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Ag... watch/record UVA vs. Miami Saturday. I am pretty sure I have my darkhorse for 2018, but I have a streak to protect.

Darnold? Rosen? Still lean Rosen, but I'm starting to get bad vibes on both. A lil Leinart feel for the former and Leaf feel for the latter. Looking forward to their match up.

Still haven't seen Allen. Jackson? Kid could be the Russell Wilson of this draft.

Im not convinced on any of them.   Figure that one of them has to be great right? 

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Now the challenge is to remember my approach from two nites ago... hmmmmm.

First... modify your example a bit. Second... Fire your Dude #3 as these guys are paid to have opinions

 

And..... F U C K.... did it again...

I need an "Undo" button... badly....

have to take this offline to a word program... back later...

The images running through my mind are awesome! 

[Tour2ma]

14 minutes ago, Mark O said:

Im not convinced on any of them.   Figure that one of them has to be great right? 

In the entire QB class? Likely...

Of the top 4? Dunno... haven't seen him yet.

[Tour2ma]

2 minutes ago, D Bone said:

The images running through my mind are awesome! 

lol... I do have a book or two I could send you...

[D Bone]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

lol... I do have a book or two I could send you...

Thanks, but none of the other 13 have helped so far......... 

[stillmotion]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Ag... watch/record UVA vs. Miami Saturday. I am pretty sure I have my darkhorse for 2018, but I have a streak to protect.

Darnold? Rosen? Still lean Rosen, but I'm starting to get bad vibes on both. A lil Leinart feel for the former and Leaf feel for the latter. Looking forward to their match up.

Still haven't seen Allen. Jackson? Kid could be the Russell Wilson of this draft.

Really disagree on our FO... but you probably could have guessed that...

Correction noted... I and my sanity thank you.

One more guy over "the concensus process" destroys the process. It's that simple. It's the Holmgren/Farmer/Chuckles/Moleface way one more time. It's not as if any one guy evaluates every prospect. None can... no one person can. Every "great" GM has hot and cold streaks. The best GM's build scouting... and analytics... staffs as well or better than they do rosters. That is how they sustain excellence. That is at the heart of what Sashi & Co are doing. That is Sashi's focus... it has to be since he is not a football guy. His total focus is the process.

I do not know of another example of this FO's approach. I do not know if it will work, I just know it can work... but only without the installation of a football guy.

 

Reminds me that I owe D bone a post....

 

I'm not saying bring someone in with the title "GM", I'd just say to toss in someone like manning to help with football operations. If we want, we can still give Sashi the final say, but let him handle most of the talent evaluation. In my opinion we've hit on some prospects but fell so flat on quarterback it's ridiculous. Again this is just my two cents. I admire Sashi's confidence, but admit I'm slightly afraid of it at times and I detest Hue's overconfidence.

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Where the phuck did I ever say, "The biggest miss has been the Qb's but that falls directly on Hue." ????????????

We will simply never agree on the "football guy". Installing a final say is the same as blowing up the whole thing.

Well, I'll wait and let you tell me how the "consensus" decided it was a good idea to offer the Bengals second and third round picks for AJ McDonald's. Love the Android auto correct.

Another blunder saved by the Bell from the gang that can't shoot straight.

[stillmotion]

1 minute ago, hoorta said:

Well, I'll wait and let you tell me how the "consensus" decided it was a good idea to offer the Bengals second and third round picks for AJ McDonald's. Love the Android auto correct.

Another blunder saved by the Bell from the gang that can't shoot straight.

I just don't get why we tried to trade back for Pryor......

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/browns-reportedly-tried-to-get-terrelle-pryor-back-via-trade-with-redskins/

[Tour2ma]

4 minutes ago, stillmotion said:

I'm not saying bring someone in with the title "GM", I'd just say to toss in someone like manning to help with football operations. If we want, we can still give Sashi the final say, but let him handle most of the talent evaluation. In my opinion we've hit on some prospects but fell so flat on quarterback it's ridiculous. Again this is just my two cents. I admire Sashi's confidence, but admit I'm slightly afraid of it at times and I detest Hue's overconfidence.

I'm not sure you land a Manning or other "football guy" without giving them control... but if we can, then I'm good. Manning as a Special Consultant is something I've endorsed before. Install him to work with Scouting, Pro and College, to ID QB candidates to feed the consensus process.

[Tour2ma]

3 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Well, I'll wait and let you tell me how the "consensus" decided it was a good idea to offer the Bengals second and third round picks for AJ McDonald's. Love the Android auto correct.

Another blunder saved by the Bell from the gang that can't shoot straight.

Watch it, bud... you're talking about one of my darkhorses there. One, I might add, that has shown nothing but promise whenever he's been on the field.

That said... I am on record as saying a 2nd + a 3rd was a bit rich for him... especially in light of his being an UFA at season's end.

He'd be an interesting addition to our 2018 mix... certainly among the "best-of-the-rest" type FA I see behind Cousins.

[Nero]

I think someone has posted it somewhere: they haven't really TRIED to get the franchise QB yet.

It is an interesting move since it is the hardest position to address, so if everytime you go to the draft, you draft one, but not in the first round, it's like stating that you obviously need a quaterback, while you don't take risks and gain some time. I was really glad they took Kizer in the 2nd round, because he was by some of the analysts I follow the top prospect, and you take him with your 4th pick, not putting so much pressure neither on him or on you (FO). If the QBs you draft don't make it, well, they're lower rounds. If they work out, you're a genius.

Anyway, the time to pass on QBs has gone. They have to take one in the first round (whether Kizer improves or not) and having someone such as Manning in the building as a consultant would be great.

[Canton Dawg]

14 hours ago, thenew23 said:

 And the fact they liked Goff tells me all I need to know about their ability to evaluate QBs.

Right, the names of Wentz, Prescott, and Watson come to mind.

But hey...we'll spend a 2nd and 3rd on Andy Dalton's backup!

Great analytics.

[Tour2ma]

2 minutes ago, Nero said:

I think someone has posted it somewhere: they haven't really TRIED to get the franchise QB yet.

It is an interesting move since it is the hardest position to address, so if everytime you go to the draft, you draft one, but not in the first round, it's like stating that you obviously need a quaterback, while you don't take risks and gain some time. I was really glad they took Kizer in the 2nd round, because he was by some of the analysts I follow the top prospect, and you take him with your 4th pick, not putting so much pressure neither on him or on you (FO). If the QBs you draft don't make it, well, they're lower rounds. If they work out, you're a genius.

Anyway, the time to pass on QBs has gone. They have to take one in the first round (whether Kizer improves or not) and having someone such as Manning in the building as a consultant would be great.

I'm liking you more with every post... Here's to an NFL game in Madrid before decade's end!

My old saying has been, "You are always looking for your next QB." Only thing that changes is the urgency of the search and price you are willing to pay. Too often we have had panicked "football guys" fearful for their jobs reach for the Weedens (a/k/a Wheezies) and JFFs of the draft... and it's killed this franchise.

At the time I thought Kizer was the value QB pick of the first two rounds... and his value was only exceeded in the entire draft by Mr. Irrelevant 2017, Chad Kelly, my super sleeper, who has a real shot at being a star if he can keep his Sheet together. I had to drop the value of my 2017 Darkhorse, C.J. Beathard, who I thought was over-drafted in R3 by the 49ers, but he has won their starting job for now, so maybe he will end up worth the price they paid.

Agree the clock is rapidly running out to be sure enough on Kizer to declare him "the guy", but the draft is another issue entirely. And this is where we part ways in this exchange.

We can't go into the draft saying "we have to" and then take the QB we feel has the best shot at making it. We have to believe such a high pick will make it... or else it's just another panic move by a FO.

[Nero]

50 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I'm liking you more with every post... Here's to an NFL game in Madrid before decade's end!

My old saying has been, "You are always looking for your next QB." Only thing that changes is the urgency of the search and price you are willing to pay. Too often we have had panicked "football guys" fearful for their jobs reach for the Weedens (a/k/a Wheezies) and JFFs of the draft... and it's killed this franchise.

At the time I thought Kizer was the value QB pick of the first two rounds... and his value was only exceeded in the entire draft by Mr. Irrelevant 2017, Chad Kelly, my super sleeper, who has a real shot at being a star if he can keep his Sheet together. I had to drop the value of my 2017 Darkhorse, C.J. Beathard, who I thought was over-drafted in R3 by the 49ers, but he has won their starting job for now, so maybe he will end up worth the price they paid.

Agree the clock is rapidly running out to be sure enough on Kizer to declare him "the guy", but the draft is another issue entirely. And this is where we part ways in this exchange.

We can't go into the draft saying "we have to" and then take the QB we feel has the best shot at making it. We have to believe such a high pick will make it... or else it's just another panic move by a FO.

on November 8, Nero said in 'Two Picks in the Top Ten'...

<<I think it is more difficult to fit a rookie QB in a NFL team and make an impact in the first year if everything around him doesn't work well. I believe college QBs are less and less prepared to play in pro level with the systems they run on college. At least in their first year. Wentz didn't have a great rookie year with the drop circus he had around him last year, and Watson has played at an oustanding level in an offense which for years has only lacked a QB.

Will we see one of those top draft picks traded for a veteran QB? For me the clever move would be creating the least QB dependable team possible. Strong run game, stout defense. 20 years with no franchise quaterback and after two drafts drafting QBs in 3rd and 2nd round you wanna give a shoot in the first at the probably one draft you have left? Risky business...>>

Well, I have my doubts on what should be the move in the draft.

On the one side, if Coleman and Gordon play to what's expected of them (a game changer in Gordon's case), and Kizer improves greatly, it will be a matter of adding a WR and maybe a RB to get the attack going. You don't waste a pick in a QB because you already have one that could work, and that pick is used to fill other holes this roster still has.

But on the other side, I would also like to have a top QB prospect, due to some reasons:

A, you get more chances to get a franchise QB if you multiply the choices every year, not going 1 QB per year, because if the one you chose he doesn't work, you're doomed. I'm up for a fight for the spot between to young QBs or maybe even a veteran.

B, if Kizer improves in this season, and you make the choice not to draft a QB in the top of the draft in a 'good QB year', you're setting up yourself in a bad position. I mean, everyone in the league already thinks that this process is set up for failure, and there are many fans even in this very board that think the same, how long will it take for the Haslams to think it too and shut down everything? If you draft a QB in the top of the draft, and it doesn't work as planned (with the rookie or with Kizer) at least you can defend yourself saying that you TRIED and did what the rest of the league thought was logical. It's like taking Garrett this year, if he doesn't pan out as a great pass rusher, well THE WHOLE LEAGUE was wrong, and you cannot be blamed if he ends up being a bust, because everyone else would have made the same move.

I guess that I will see everything more clearly as the draft comes closer, and it is funny that though this season is already 'lost', the end of the season is of the utmost importance for the future of this team.

About the game in Madrid, heh, I don't see that happening. Maybe Germany, there's a good fanbade there.

[LondonBrown]

Another European on the board is welcome news and especially one with such stout judgement as shown so far! Now, if you're a Real fan from Madrid lets talk about that Champions League game at Wembley the other week because boy, WE KICKED YOUR ARSES 

[Nero]

I don't like Real Madrid. Maybe in Champions is the only place where I have rooted for them as being a Spanish team. But I don't care if they lose or win. I'm fan of Osasuna, my home town team, which is a humble team currently atop of the Segunda Division... Our only joy for years has been putting in trouble big teams in Primera Division, hehehe.

 

[TexasAg1969]

Oh Jesus-futbol.

How come they don't call it pelota de pie?

[Nero]

5 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Oh Jesus-futbol.

How come they don't call it pelota de pie?

We call it balompie sometimes too.

[TexasAg1969]

3 minutes ago, Nero said:

We call it balompie sometimes too.

Do you play for keeps like these guys did?

[Nero]

3 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Do you play for keeps like these guys did?

Keeps? I don't understand. Like towers?

[LondonBrown]

41 minutes ago, Nero said:

I don't like Real Madrid. Maybe in Champions is the only place where I have rooted for them as being a Spanish team. But I don't care if they lose or win. I'm fan of Osasuna, my home town team, which is a humble team currently atop of the Segunda Division... Our only joy for years has been putting in trouble big teams in Primera Division, hehehe.

 

I know Osasuna from the north, and remember them playing in European competition too.

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Nero said:

I don't like Real Madrid. Maybe in Champions is the only place where I have rooted for them as being a Spanish team. But I don't care if they lose or win. I'm fan of Osasuna, my home town team, which is a humble team currently atop of the Segunda Division... Our only joy for years has been putting in trouble big teams in Primera Division, hehehe.

 

You are going to get into trouble with Z if you keep up the futbol talk.   

[hoorta]

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I'm liking you more with every post... Here's to an NFL game in Madrid before decade's end!

My old saying has been, "You are always looking for your next QB." Only thing that changes is the urgency of the search and price you are willing to pay. Too often we have had panicked "football guys" fearful for their jobs reach for the Weedens (a/k/a Wheezies) and JFFs of the draft... and it's killed this franchise.

At the time I thought Kizer was the value QB pick of the first two rounds... and his value was only exceeded in the entire draft by Mr. Irrelevant 2017, Chad Kelly, my super sleeper, who has a real shot at being a star if he can keep his Sheet together. I had to drop the value of my 2017 Darkhorse, C.J. Beathard, who I thought was over-drafted in R3 by the 49ers, but he has won their starting job for now, so maybe he will end up worth the price they paid.

Agree the clock is rapidly running out to be sure enough on Kizer to declare him "the guy", but the draft is another issue entirely. And this is where we part ways in this exchange.

We can't go into the draft saying "we have to" and then take the QB we feel has the best shot at making it. We have to believe such a high pick will make it... or else it's just another panic move by a FO.

And we've done far too much panicking. Wheezy and the Party Boy. Rolling the dice in the lower rounds, Frye, McCoy, Kessler. But in this case- we have the picks Tour. I think one of the top qbs is going to emerge, and we're sitting atop the draft board again.   They valued picks more than talent in the past Tour. I was on the Wentz wagon- just a reminder. It's time to use some of that draft capital. I agree it's too early to get serious about the guys who are coming out- there's going to be months to hash that out. 

[BaconHound]

12 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I know you have a typo there and did not mean to say Dak Prescott. But I do have an issue with the FO not taking Prescott and said he was a franchise maker from the beginning. I also wanted the Browns to take Watson, but only after they took Garrett.

So in my mind this FO f'd up the QB not once, but twice. They need help in picking just as much as Hue needs game day management help. Neither one (FO and /or HC)  knows how to pick the right player when they are there for the taking at the QB position. Or if one of them knew but got overruled then fire the one(s) who overruled. Those were two big misses that even an amateur like me (and Tour at least on Prescott) could see well before the draft took place. And how they could take a 5th rounder like Kessler in the 3rd when Dak was sitting right there is unforgivable. Their due diligence research could have told them Dak's little run-in with DUI (which later did not hold up in court) was a one time thing even if it was real. That is what a good FO is supposed to be best at doing.

This year I see the best as Darnold and Rosen with the showdown this Saturday being the deciding factor. Allen I have now seen on multiple occasions and think he's career backup (if that). I have not really seen a full game from Lamar Jackson yet but plan to watch his game against Kentucky. I want to see the accurate arm and the progressions that I see in Darnold and Rosen.

No typo every organization passed on Prescott and Dallas made a nice call getting him where they did but he obviously didn't impress anyone.  Not saying he's not a solid QB but you can't hold a front office to blame for something that 31 teams passed on him multiple times.

I don't think a difference maker is in this years draft but I'm a fan not a paid NFL scout so we'll see come draft day.

[TexasAg1969]

3 hours ago, Nero said:

Keeps? I don't understand. Like towers?

Keeps as in a war. Loser dies.

[Tour2ma]

16 hours ago, Nero said:

on November 8, Nero said in 'Two Picks in the Top Ten'...

<<I think it is more difficult to fit a rookie QB in a NFL team and make an impact in the first year if everything around him doesn't work well. I believe college QBs are less and less prepared to play in pro level with the systems they run on college. At least in their first year. Wentz didn't have a great rookie year with the drop circus he had around him last year, and Watson has played at an oustanding level in an offense which for years has only lacked a QB.

Will we see one of those top draft picks traded for a veteran QB? For me the clever move would be creating the least QB dependable team possible. Strong run game, stout defense. 20 years with no franchise quaterback and after two drafts drafting QBs in 3rd and 2nd round you wanna give a shoot in the first at the probably one draft you have left? Risky business...>>

Well, I have my doubts on what should be the move in the draft.

On the one side, if Coleman and Gordon play to what's expected of them (a game changer in Gordon's case), and Kizer improves greatly, it will be a matter of adding a WR and maybe a RB to get the attack going. You don't waste a pick in a QB because you already have one that could work, and that pick is used to fill other holes this roster still has.

But on the other side, I would also like to have a top QB prospect, due to some reasons:

A, you get more chances to get a franchise QB if you multiply the choices every year, not going 1 QB per year, because if the one you chose he doesn't work, you're doomed. I'm up for a fight for the spot between to young QBs or maybe even a veteran.

B, if Kizer improves in this season, and you make the choice not to draft a QB in the top of the draft in a 'good QB year', you're setting up yourself in a bad position. I mean, everyone in the league already thinks that this process is set up for failure, and there are many fans even in this very board that think the same, how long will it take for the Haslams to think it too and shut down everything? If you draft a QB in the top of the draft, and it doesn't work as planned (with the rookie or with Kizer) at least you can defend yourself saying that you TRIED and did what the rest of the league thought was logical. It's like taking Garrett this year, if he doesn't pan out as a great pass rusher, well THE WHOLE LEAGUE was wrong, and you cannot be blamed if he ends up being a bust, because everyone else would have made the same move.

I guess that I will see everything more clearly as the draft comes closer, and it is funny that though this season is already 'lost', the end of the season is of the utmost importance for the future of this team.

About the game in Madrid, heh, I don't see that happening. Maybe Germany, there's a good fanbade there.

But I've already been to Germany...

Very close to your takes in the above... especially your self-quote. We've certainly taken the route of building a less QB dependent team, but in part that's because we haven't seen the QB as yet. Maybe this year we do... and the QB is...

I think we take a QB somewhere early this year... as in either Day one or two... all depending upon the talent evaluation. If we end up with two viable starters, then one can always be traded. QBs are second only to draft picks as trade currency.

As for the Haslams... no guarantees... only the hope, or at least my hope, is that they can stay the course at least thru the 2018 Draft and season. Hard to do given the wailing in the peanut gallery, but i find it hard to believe they did not sign on for at least three years come what may.

[TexasAg1969]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

As for the Haslams... no guarantees... only the hope, or at least my hope, is that they can stay the course at least thru the 2018 Draft and season. Hard to do given the wailing in the peanut gallery, but i find it hard to believe they did not sign on for at least three years come what may.

I don't know Buffalo Bob. Howdy (Jimmy) looks mighty shaky. And the coaching/FO look more and more like Clarabell's Clowns every game.