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Shazier - NFL Problem?


Ghoolie
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I just watched the hit that injured Ryan Shazier. AMid talk of how the NFL has become so dangerous, I have to shake my head and ask WTF was Shazier thinking? Other than to hurt the receiver there was no reason to lower his head. I replayed the video 20 times if I watched it once and again WTF was this guy thinking? Who tackles like that? The way the other guys body was turned, Shazier was going to hit a bick wall and make absolutely no penetration on this guy.

Man, I am sorry for Shazier's bad fortune, but fukc. he did this to himself. Completely, 100% self inflicted.

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5 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

I just watched the hit that injured Ryan Shazier. AMid talk of how the NFL has become so dangerous, I have to shake my head and ask WTF was Shazier thinking? Other than to hurt the receiver there was no reason to lower his head. I replayed the video 20 times if I watched it once and again WTF was this guy thinking? Who tackles like that? The way the other guys body was turned, Shazier was going to hit a brick wall and make absolutely no penetration on this guy.

Man, I am sorry for Shazier's bad fortune, but fukc. he did this to himself. Completely, 100% self inflicted.

He learned that move from the best- Headhunter Harrison, who almost always did that stuff- until they made it illegal. Remember the game where he knocked Josh Cribbs and Colt McCoy out of the game? Hope Shazier will be OK, I wouldn't want permanent injury to anyone. 

 

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nailed it ghoolie. THis was exactly what I said when I heard he got injured, before I even saw it I asked people here if it was from a crown hit. I get it, nobody wants to say "i told you so" to a guy who almost got paralyzed....but it's not "too soon" now. People need to point out that this wasn't some freak accident....this was the inevitable. It's hard wired in the dude to tackle like that. But it's precisely the kind of tackling they're trying to take out of the game. Again i don't wish the kid ill, but somebody needs to talk to him if he's gonna come back to the NFL....there needs to be a "what did you learn" conversation with him. 

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1 hour ago, hoorta said:

He learned that move from the best- Headhunter Harrison, who almost always did that stuff- until they made it illegal. Remember the game where he knocked Josh Cribbs and Colt McCoy out of the game? Hope Shazier will be OK, I wouldn't want permanent injury to anyone. 

 

Larry, I am walking in your shoes a bit these past weeks. It's funny for me to have a sub title about "we have the hardest hit players", but this stuff is sickening. I hope Shazier will be okay too, he is not likely to play football again, as right now they don't know if he will walk again. Watch the hit that crippled Eric LeGrand. He was a monster of a man, and he stuck his head into a flat out return man.

someone is teaching this, and that someone, those someones need to be banned from football. Again, Shazier did this to himself. Lowering his head was unnatural. NOBODY would have tackled like that on that geometry unless they simply were pre programmed to do it all the time. Fukced up.

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48 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

nailed it ghoolie. THis was exactly what I said when I heard he got injured, before I even saw it I asked people here if it was from a crown hit. I get it, nobody wants to say "i told you so" to a guy who almost got paralyzed....but it's not "too soon" now. People need to point out that this wasn't some freak accident....this was the inevitable. It's hard wired in the dude to tackle like that. But it's precisely the kind of tackling they're trying to take out of the game. Again i don't wish the kid ill, but somebody needs to talk to him if he's gonna come back to the NFL....there needs to be a "what did you learn" conversation with him. 

I do not think the NFL will ever clear him to play again. Too much liability and no real upside.

Honest to God, this crap sickens me. That tackle was 10000% unneccessary. The ball was away from his head, there was nothing to gain. That crap is in his blood. Frankly, he should be penalized for the hit. I know, he IS penalized, but this helmet schidt needs to stop now.

Take the Helmets away.

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I think for some of these guys it is simply instinct to lower their heads and make those hits. If they were really thinking about it they wouldn't do it. They have to be trained not to let their instincts take hold....but it is a very difficult process.  These guys may be trained....and may make the "proper" play 999 times out of a thousand....but on that 1000th play...when instinct takes over and they use the crown of their helmet to try to make a tackle it can come back to bite them.

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1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

What are we talking about?

Someone did something inappropiate and the mods dealt with him.

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I said it several weeks ago in a different thread, but watching that play 100 times like we all did I don't see some idiot lunging. Sometimes, no matter how many times you practice it, you're just gonna tackle someone awkwardly or weird. Not that I played anywhere near elite level, but when I suffered a concussion playing it was on a play somewhat like this. I was going high as the guy was going low, but he shifted at the last second. I subconsciously really put my head more down and boom, counting to threeve on the sideline.

My point is there dirty plays that are intentional. Take Thomas Davis' hit on Adams for example, he lined that Sheet up and knew what he was doing. For Shazier though, he just lowered his head because the player dipped down a bit, at least IMO. If he had a habit of shooting out like a missile he'd be dead by now. Point is, heads up tackling isn't some new concept. Hell, we were practicing heads up tackling in bumShmuck NC when I started playing in 2004. I'm just not sure though how you're going to eliminate fluke plays like that. It seems a bit ridiculous to suspend a guy in this scenario.

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12 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

they won't penalize him cause it was a hit to the thigh. 

Clev, what I meant was, his paralysis is punishment. I don't mean to be mean in that way, but goddamn, life has a way of making its point, doesn't it? I put the guy on my prayer list, and I hope he is able to function as a healthy human being again. I think even if his doctor clears him to play, the NFL won't.

This has really made an impact on me. Horrible to watch. It is as bad as the Tatum hit on Stingley. Another OSU monster.

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2 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

I said it several weeks ago in a different thread, but watching that play 100 times like we all did I don't see some idiot lunging. Sometimes, no matter how many times you practice it, you're just gonna tackle someone awkwardly or weird. Not that I played anywhere near elite level, but when I suffered a concussion playing it was on a play somewhat like this. I was going high as the guy was going low, but he shifted at the last second. I subconsciously really put my head more down and boom, counting to threeve on the sideline.

My point is there dirty plays that are intentional. Take Thomas Davis' hit on Adams for example, he lined that Sheet up and knew what he was doing. For Shazier though, he just lowered his head because the player dipped down a bit, at least IMO. If he had a habit of shooting out like a missile he'd be dead by now. Point is, heads up tackling isn't some new concept. Hell, we were practicing heads up tackling in bumShmuck NC when I started playing in 2004. I'm just not sure though how you're going to eliminate fluke plays like that. It seems a bit ridiculous to suspend a guy in this scenario.

Dude, I disagree. Lowering your head in that situation is not a normal reaction. I am not saying he was intentionally trying to hurt the receiver, but what I am saying is, he has been programmed not to tackle normally. His programming is berzerk. His programming is backwards. The vast majority of defenders would have made an arm/chest tackle, and the good ones, made an attempt to strip the ball on the way down.

The geometry of that play was IDEAL for an arm tackel and attempt at a ball strip. What Shazier did was against common sense and good football practice. It was instinctive only to Shazier. A thinking player would have made the spilt microsecond decision to make a chest to body hit and try to strip the ball. Shaziers programming is fukced up. Sorry, but I am with Hoorta on this, this schidt has got to be completely removed from the NFL. It is cancer.

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5 minutes ago, Ghoolie said:

Dude, I disagree. Lowering your head in that situation is not a normal reaction. I am not saying he was intentionally trying to hurt the receiver, but what I am saying is, he has been programmed not to tackle normally. His programming is berzerk. His programming is backwards. The vast majority of defenders would have made an arm/chest tackle, and the good ones, made an attempt to strip the ball on the way down.

The geometry of that play was IDEAL for an arm tackel and attempt at a ball strip. What Shazier did was against common sense and good football practice. It was instinctive only to Shazier. A thinking player would have made the spilt microsecond decision to make a chest to body hit and try to strip the ball. Shaziers programming is fukced up. Sorry, but I am with Hoorta on this, this schidt has got to be completely removed from the NFL. It is cancer.

Show me, in candid detail, that he isn't the overwhelmingly majority of the time a form tackler. You are not providing anything that his programming is bezerk other than just saying it out loud. I asked Cleve the same question and never got a response. To the best of my knowledge he's never suffered a concussion in his career. Do you really think if he was some idiot tackling with his head down he wouldn't have had at least 1 concussion? do you really think he's that lucky?

Do better, seriously. It was a gnarly play but Shazier has no incentive to tackle like that unless it was a fluke bad angle play. That Sheet happens every week, and is almost impossible to stop. Anyone who has played any level of football can tell you that. I guarantee you his whole life he's been taught to tackle normally, but fluke plays with players going 1000 miles an hour are just going to happen. 

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1 minute ago, jrb12711 said:

Show me, in candid detail, that he isn't the overwhelmingly majority of the time a form tackler. You are not providing anything that his programming is bezerk other than just saying it out loud. I asked Cleve the same question and never got a response. To the best of my knowledge he's never suffered a concussion in his career. Do you really think if he was some idiot tackling with his head down he wouldn't have had at least 1 concussion? do you really think he's that lucky?

Do better, seriously. It was a gnarly play but Shazier has no incentive to tackle like that unless it was a fluke bad angle play. That Sheet happens every week, and is almost impossible to stop. Anyone who has played any level of football can tell you that. I guarantee you his whole life he's been taught to tackle normally, but fluke plays with players going 1000 miles an hour are just going to happen. 

Your position is nonsensical. There are no statistics for such things. Leading with one's head does not have any relation to concussions. How did ALi take so much punishment but never suffer a concussion, yet Floyd patterson suffer one every time his opponent farted?

I don't see Myles Garret leading with his head. I don't see Clay Matthey getting called for these kinds of hits. 

Shazier is programmed to employ technique that goes against common sense. 99% of people would have made a body tackle and recognized the opportunity to strip the ball. Shazier was nothing more than a raging bull, irritated to the point of wantign to break something when the stall gate opened. He did this to himself. Using his helmet on that tackle was MONDO BIZARRO.......................... totally out of normal human behavior.

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On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:48 PM, hoorta said:

He learned that move from the best- Headhunter Harrison, who almost always did that stuff- until they made it illegal. Remember the game where he knocked Josh Cribbs and Colt McCoy out of the game? Hope Shazier will be OK, I wouldn't want permanent injury to anyone. 

 

Harrison stopped hitting like that before Shazier was drafted.. Shazier brought his technique to the Steelers from Ohio State. If you look at his college highlights on YouTube, which I have, you will see plays where he led with the helmet.

He hit the bungle player on the outside upper thigh/ hip.  Absolute worst place imo. That area of the body in not gonna give so easily.

Btw...Harrison knocked out Cribbs, and Mo Massaquoi in the same game. He knocked out McCoy in another game.

 

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I've watched the clips too.  Guess I'm not seeing what others have.

When the ball is caught with the receiver's feet off the ground, he is already launching himself for a waist-high tackle and his arms are starting to be extended to wrap around him and tackle him.  Only, he's too far away and the receiver doesn't push forward after coming to the ground.

To me, he's trying to tackle someone - not just hit them, as most players are taught/coached.  HIs mistake is that he's leading with his head - he doesn't move it to the side for the waist-high tackle.

Leading with the head has been coached for at least a decade.  Hitting - instead of tackling - is also the "modern" coaching technique.  They teach these guys to just create a bigger impact - not to tackle them.

Peppers hits this way.  He launches himself like a missile and leads with his head - like a missile.  Never see him even move his arms so that he could actually tackle someone.  His whole purpose is to just hit them with as much force as he can and create a bigger impact.

If coaches actually went back to teaching tackling instead of hitting, I think we'd see a lot less injuries.

 

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14 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

Dude, I disagree. Lowering your head in that situation is not a normal reaction. I am not saying he was intentionally trying to hurt the receiver, but what I am saying is, he has been programmed not to tackle normally. His programming is berzerk. His programming is backwards. The vast majority of defenders would have made an arm/chest tackle, and the good ones, made an attempt to strip the ball on the way down.

The geometry of that play was IDEAL for an arm tackel and attempt at a ball strip. What Shazier did was against common sense and good football practice. It was instinctive only to Shazier. A thinking player would have made the spilt microsecond decision to make a chest to body hit and try to strip the ball. Shaziers programming is fukced up. Sorry, but I am with Hoorta on this, this schidt has got to be completely removed from the NFL. It is cancer.

A lot of the responsibility should be on ESPN. They are the ones that glorified the big hit instead of correct tackling.

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35 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

A lot of the responsibility should be on ESPN. They are the ones that glorified the big hit instead of correct tackling.

So years ago ,when I still lived in NE Ohio ,my son and I decided to go watch a high school playoff game at the old Rubber bowl...What we saw horrified us...These kids! were seriously trying to hurt each other!!! Highlight hits all night long! I remember thinking if I had a child young enough to play highschool football , I would not let them play, if this is what they're coaching them to do now .

And I recall feeling the same way Doug...This is all being glorified by ESPN 

I can say that I still go watch high school games on Friday nights , and here in Texas, I see very little head hunting...Very little "Highlight Reel Hits"  ,So I do see hope for the future.

I've thought for years what needs to happen is , helmet makers need to manufacture helmets with a dye pack in the crown of the helmet...If you break the dye pack it shows immediately...you're ejected from the game and automatically suspended for one game.

At the highschool level just having to buy a new helmet would be enough of a deterrent, that coaching would seriously enforce "No leading with your head" and "Keep your head up"

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3 hours ago, BrownB499 said:

I've thought for years what needs to happen is , helmet makers need to manufacture helmets with a dye pack in the crown of the helmet...If you break the dye pack it shows immediately...you're ejected from the game and automatically suspended for one game.

At the highschool level just having to buy a new helmet would be enough of a deterrent, that coaching would seriously enforce "No leading with your head" and "Keep your head up"

Nice idea, but there could be many times where the dye pack would break accidentaly, wouldn't it? I mean in piles or when rolling after a fall or whatever.

Maybe if they had a pressure sensor that would send a signal (visual or to another device in the bench area or to the referee) if it reached certain measure it could be more precise, though I don't know its viability both logistically and economically.

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4 hours ago, The Cysko Kid said:

The situation sucks for shazier but it's likely to be a serious catalyst for changes in the NFL 

Not at all. Lip service is what we will get, and idiot rules that continue to ruin the game. Really, the NFL is destroying itself. I never came onboard for politics, vulgar players, bad behavior and the media glorifying players to rock star status. Fukc the NFL. Seriously, Fukc it.

 

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5 hours ago, The Cysko Kid said:

The situation sucks for shazier but it's likely to be a serious catalyst for changes in the NFL 

Not sure what they can change.  I think they have done all they can with the rules....and I think they are trying to teach these guys not to tackle by spearing.....but, as I said, sometimes the instincts just take over, and they lead with their heads. Hopefully a lot of that ingrained instinct will be squeezed out of players with intense instruction....but it may never completely be eliminated.

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22 hours ago, StinkHole said:

Harrison stopped hitting like that before Shazier was drafted.. Shazier brought his technique to the Steelers from Ohio State. If you look at his college highlights on YouTube, which I have, you will see plays where he led with the helmet.

He hit the bungle player on the outside upper thigh/ hip.  Absolute worst place imo. That area of the body in not gonna give so easily.

Btw...Harrison knocked out Cribbs, and Mo Massaquoi in the same game. He knocked out McCoy in another game.

 

Well said. And remember, I like Shazier, all I am saying is that there is just something not natural about leading with the head. If these guys had no helmets, you think they would still lead with their head?

Regarding Cribbs getting KO'd, this is the food for my tag line.

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20 hours ago, BrownPile said:

I've watched the clips too.  Guess I'm not seeing what others have.

When the ball is caught with the receiver's feet off the ground, he is already launching himself for a waist-high tackle and his arms are starting to be extended to wrap around him and tackle him.  Only, he's too far away and the receiver doesn't push forward after coming to the ground.

To me, he's trying to tackle someone - not just hit them, as most players are taught/coached.  HIs mistake is that he's leading with his head - he doesn't move it to the side for the waist-high tackle.

Leading with the head has been coached for at least a decade.  Hitting - instead of tackling - is also the "modern" coaching technique.  They teach these guys to just create a bigger impact - not to tackle them.

Peppers hits this way.  He launches himself like a missile and leads with his head - like a missile.  Never see him even move his arms so that he could actually tackle someone.  His whole purpose is to just hit them with as much force as he can and create a bigger impact.

If coaches actually went back to teaching tackling instead of hitting, I think we'd see a lot less injuries.

 

Well said.

 

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8 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

Well said. And remember, I like Shazier, all I am saying is that there is just something not natural about leading with the head. If these guys had no helmets, you think they would still lead with their head?

Regarding Cribbs getting KO'd, this is the food for my tag line.

Agree 100%

Speaking of no helmets. The helmetless fools who play this game hit  with their shoulders.

 

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8 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

there is just something not natural about leading with the head. If these guys had no helmets, you think they would still lead with their head?

That's something I have always thought of. All the protections (pads, helmet, facemask) that the football players wear give a sensation of safety that in the case of the helmets is false, as your brain can suffer CTE and your neck can't be protected from a direct hit leading with the head. 

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On 12/20/2017 at 11:48 PM, hoorta said:

He learned that move from the best- Headhunter Harrison, who almost always did that stuff- until they made it illegal. Remember the game where he knocked Josh Cribbs and Colt McCoy out of the game? Hope Shazier will be OK, I wouldn't want permanent injury to anyone. 

 

Well said Larry!  For those that have been here long enough - you can thank Ghoolie for the hypocritical take that gives you the same 2 minute abs I got from LMFAO.  That took my FLABS (acro for Flugel's Abs) to shredded wheat in just 120 seconds.  The funniest part of this entire thread is Ghoolie always used to confront and insult anyone who thought Harrison was dirty.  Laughable considering all that came from 1 fan that never wore a jock strap outside of his mommy-made Halloween pirate costume.  Ghoolie would always announce how much he adored James Harrison for playing football the way it was meant to be played. 

I'll take a stab at why James Harrison could withstand what Shazier could not.  Once Harrison started taking enough steroids (after being cut 3 times by Miami and Pittsburgh) - the Steeler way increased his neck size to the circumference of an oak tree while his wife began to frequent the battered women's shelter.  The irony in all of this is when Harrison completed his hat-trick of unconscious Cleveland Browns (MoMass, Cribbs and McCoy) - Steeler fans tried to pay his fine money.  The NFL wouldn't accept that money so the Pittsburgh Gazette painted Harrison as a hero for donating all that money from others to the battered women's shelter/support group Harrison's wife continued to need.  That Gazette article counted on avid Steeler fans like Ghoolie to be too simplistic to ask why Harrison's wife still needed the shelter.   At 1 time, James Harrison was the Defensive MVP of the NFL while Ben Rapen was the Superbowl QB topping Arizona.  In the same game, 1 guy had a 99 yard pick 6 while the other threw the game winning TD pass to the oft-arrested Santonio Holmes.  In between all of Ghoolie's cartwheels, summer salts and underwear changes for that trio  - he couldn't wait to tell us Jim Brown was a bad guy he could never root for.  Once again, way to follow your criteria there pus gut...

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