Peppers

[alporcini]

I own that I probably know less about football than anyone on this board...

But I don't get this one at all.

I thought Peppers looked on Thursday night...

Made a nice hit on 4th down to stop Philly's first drive.

Had at least two other plays I remember being impressed 

Help me understand.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2018/08/24/cleveland-browns-three-brutally-honest-insights/2/

[Ibleedbrown]

Good topic for discussion. I linked the same article in the guard play thread because another thing the author brought up was that.

Peppers looked out of position a few times. He’s going to be highly scrutinized due to draft position. It doesn’t help that his fellow first round picks, Garrett and Njoku, are really turning heads with their steps forward.

[MLD Woody]

No one will take into account what I have to say on this topic... but ... I don't really see what he's talking about. I mean, that's one of the top TEs in the NFL, I'd say he did pretty well considering his lack of experience doing it. And Kindred was in covering TEs that werent nearly as good. Looks like commenters on that article disagree as well 

[jcam222]

Whether has been better or worse than Kindred may be questionable. Whats not questionable is he is not delivering value to his draft position and we need to upgrade at safety. 

[gumby73]

I saw Peppers with my own 2 eyes on my large TV screen 4 times thursday night..That's 3 more times than I saw him on my screen all of last year..you do the math..Welcome to the camera angles Pep>> 

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, jcam222 said:

Whether has been better or worse than Kindred may be questionable. Whats not questionable is he is not delivering value to his draft position and we need to upgrade at safety. 

Damn

This is gonna be one of those threads where, in response to haters/those that don't know what they're talking about, I speak for the middle ground, in a way that defends Pep, and then I get called a Homer for it.

Damn. It might be

[thenew23]

17 hours ago, jcam222 said:

Whether has been better or worse than Kindred may be questionable. Whats not questionable is he is not delivering value to his draft position and we need to upgrade at safety. 

Whoa! Slow down there partner.

Peppers is a great talent and is a sure tackler. Remember, the kid still has never had a set position but I think they have him in the right place now, and he should be a solid starter at SS for years to come... 

Definitely no hurry to move on...

[gumby73]

1 minute ago, MLD Woody said:

Damn. It might be

Why did G.Williams give Peppers the #22 Jersey?>>>>>"Here, wear this kid, in honor of the all 22 views, you'll need it"

[jcam222]

19 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Damn

This is gonna be one of those threads where, in response to haters/those that don't know what they're talking about, I speak for the middle ground, in a way that defends Pep, and then I get called a Homer for it.

Damn. It might be

No homer accusation from me. I hope you are right and I’m full of sh!t. I certainly have been more than once

[Dutch Oven]

I'm going to allow him a season in the position that he should have been in last season (strong safety) before I can honestly give a fair assessment of him. 

That being said, I was not a fan of using a first rounder on him. 

[Ibleedbrown]

8 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm going to allow him a season in the position that he should have been in last season (strong safety) before I can honestly give a fair assessment of him. 

That being said, I was not a fan of using a first rounder on him. 

Pretty much where l’m at on the matter.

Gumby’s comment about “being seen” probably plays a lot into our perception of Peppers. With him playing so far back last year, if we did see him chances are we just gave up a play for a hefty chunk of yards. Whether he made a nice tackle or not, we still gave up a hefty chunk of yards. Negative association. Psychology and shìt.

I will admit re: his kick return prowess, l’m not impressed. He seems to make good safe decisions and protects the ball, but l don’t see him doing anything electric. I’m looking for 220 and he seems to top out at 110. I keep seeing Josh Cribbs on the sideline hoping he can give Peppers a lesson in voltage and how to apply it.

The last factor l’ll mention is that Kindred is a pretty good ballplayer. I can’t say l’ve spent much time breaking down his play, but he seems fearless, hits hard and is generally where he needs to be when he needs to be there. 

[MLD Woody]

12 hours ago, thenew23 said:

Whoa! Slow down there partner.

Peppers is a great talent and is a sure tackler. Remember, the kid still has never had a set position but I think they have him in the right place now, and he should be a solid starter at FS for years to come... 

Definitely no hurry to move on...

SS*

[MLD Woody]

1 hour ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Pretty much where l’m at on the matter.

Gumby’s comment about “being seen” probably plays a lot into our perception of Peppers. With him playing so far back last year, if we did see him chances are we just gave up a play for a hefty chunk of yards. Whether he made a nice tackle or not, we still gave up a hefty chunk of yards. Negative association. Psychology and shìt.

I will admit re: his kick return prowess, l’m not impressed. He seems to make good safe decisions and protects the ball, but l don’t see him doing anything electric. I’m looking for 220 and he seems to top out at 110. I keep seeing Josh Cribbs on the sideline hoping he can give Peppers a lesson in voltage and how to apply it.

The last factor l’ll mention is that Kindred is a pretty good ballplayer. I can’t say l’ve spent much time breaking down his play, but he seems fearless, hits hard and is generally where he needs to be when he needs to be there. 

Kindred is good. We should do a lot of three safety looks

Pep returned Punts at Michigan much more than kicks. Going forward that may be Callaway thing while Peppers does Punts. Though it looked like he had a good return going this last game and a blocker was standing right in the lane.

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Gumby’s comment about “being seen” probably plays a lot into our perception of Peppers.  

Honestly,the only play i remember is when the kid got screwed on a chit call in Cinncy. Than we all had to watch the replay 17 times.🙄(does that count as more?) to still say, Pep got screwed.Pep put a shoulder pad square on a chest pad 1st 'than' 2 sides of helmets collide. Believe the refs even gave the spot foul of contact not 15yrds. penalty? Kindred & Pep pushing one another is a good thing.The way our D is batting the ball around.Am betting on Pep to make some big plays..Get'em Pep..

[Tour2ma]

11 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm going to allow him a season in the position that he should have been in last season (strong safety) before I can honestly give a fair assessment of him. 

That being said, I was not a fan of using a first rounder on him. 

Agree completely... need to see how he performs in 2018 in a role closer to that which earned him his 1st round selection.

 

Meanwhile... Boddy looked pretty good playing Centerfield.

[Zombo]

Safety is one of our most improved positions. Randall should excell at FS, Peppers in his correct position now, and he may be our surest tackler back there. Kindred is starter quality as a backup and Boddy-Calhoun seems a natural at the spot.

Zombo

[Tacosman]

 

A big part of the issue with peppers is that you would never spend a first round pick in today's nfl on a player who is going to need to play a more traditional strong safety position because of his limitations.  That's not where the league is.  When Randall was acquired and peppers was demoted to SS(and that's what it is in today's nfl...a demotion...check the average salary rates across the league between the two) this was made all the more clear.

And if you look around the nfl, the entire secondary is moving to more of a positionless theme in a sense.  Sure there are still corners and safeties and some differentiation of roles, but with the rise of the slot corner as a most downs position now and teams using both safeties more as extra corners role, the position is fundamentally different than it was even 10 years ago.  peppers is never going to be able to function as that sort of player.

Even when you look at listed strong safeties if you had to slot them that way, they are asked to serve more as what free safeties were in the past. 

the ideal safety in the nfl today is a guy like honey badger when healthy from 3-4 years ago.  you want safeties at both safety positions who are versatile and can play a number of roles. 

this bs about how peppers 'true' position is traditional strong safety and he's going to be so much better there is silly.  Maybe that is where his skill set suits best,

but that's not where players at his position actually create value in the nfl now. 

[Tacosman]

16 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

No one will take into account what I have to say on this topic... but ... I don't really see what he's talking about. I mean, that's one of the top TEs in the NFL, I'd say he did pretty well considering his lack of experience doing it. And Kindred was in covering TEs that werent nearly as good. Looks like commenters on that article disagree as well 

how the hell does a person trying to pass as a starter in an nfl's secondary in 2018 have a 'lack of experience' covering tight ends? 

Also, peppers being a liability in the passing game in 2018's nfl is like saying a Mexican restaurant's areas that need improvement are the queso, burritos, and tacos.  Or a model's only downside is their unattractive face.  Or a actuary's main weakness is that they are bad with numbers. 

the nfl in 2018 is 90% about the ability to be efficient in the passing game and to prevent other teams from being efficient in the passing game.  Everything is geared towards that.  Using one safety spot on a way undersized extra linebacker to help plug the run is a huge problem. 

[Comeonman]

Taco dropping some bombs

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree completely... need to see how he performs in 2018 in a role closer to that which earned him his 1st round selection.

 

Meanwhile... Boddy looked pretty good playing Centerfield.

We need to see consistency during the regular season.. Not scrimmage..

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree completely... need to see how he performs in 2018 in a role closer to that which earned him his 1st round selection.

 

Meanwhile... Boddy looked pretty good playing Centerfield.

It's easy to see how much benefit we're getting from Garrett rushing and the overall improved pass rush. Throw in some tighter coverage across the board and we're getting QBs to throw up some prayers. 

Plus, no more of that punt coverage D as far as I can tell 

[MLD Woody]

29 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

how the hell does a person trying to pass as a starter in an nfl's secondary in 2018 have a 'lack of experience' covering tight ends? 

Also, peppers being a liability in the passing game in 2018's nfl is like saying a Mexican restaurant's areas that need improvement are the queso, burritos, and tacos.  Or a model's only downside is their unattractive face.  Or a actuary's main weakness is that they are bad with numbers. 

the nfl in 2018 is 90% about the ability to be efficient in the passing game and to prevent other teams from being efficient in the passing game.  Everything is geared towards that.  Using one safety spot on a way undersized extra linebacker to help plug the run is a huge problem. 

Because it's not something we really had him do at Michigan and it's not something we had him do last year. 

Your post before this, where you go off against what you think a SS is, I don't think you're paying attention to where we've had him lining up and what we've had him doing. He does play a deep half now and then, he blitzes, he covers TEs, and he covers the slot. That's not a demotion. It's a different piece in a complex puzzle. Williams had him at deep safety last year because he was our best option at it on the team. Now he has him in this Swiss army knife role for a similar reason. That's a critical piece to today's NFL defense. You made plenty of claims to the contrary, but I think I'll go with Williams on this one.

I get that you've been against him since we drafted him, you've made that very clear. You may think I'm being biased, I don't doubt you do. You need to at least be realistic in what you're saying though and look at the facts. Damn.

[Tacosman]

10 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

It's easy to see how much benefit we're getting from Garrett rushing and the overall improved pass rush. Throw in some tighter coverage across the board and we're getting QBs to throw up some prayers. 

Plus, no more of that punt coverage D as far as I can tell 

upgrading the safety position is part of the change in that last part.  

[MLD Woody]

1 minute ago, Tacosman said:

upgrading the safety position is part of the change in that last part.  

Or upgrading the CBs....

[Tacosman]

1 minute ago, MLD Woody said:

Because it's not something we really had him do at Michigan and it's not something we had him do last year. 

Your post before this, where you go off against what you think a SS is, I don't think you're paying attention to where we've had him lining up and what we've had him doing. He does play a deep half now and then, he blitzes, he covers TEs, and he covers the slot. That's not a demotion. It's a different piece in a complex puzzle. Williams had him at deep safety last year because he was our best option at it on the team. Now he has him in this Swiss army knife role for a similar reason. That's a critical piece to today's NFL defense. You made plenty of claims to the contrary, but I think I'll go with Williams on this one.

I get that you've been against him since we drafted him, you've made that very clear. You may think I'm being biased, I don't doubt you do. You need to at least be realistic in what you're saying though and look at the facts. Damn.

what he did at michigan is really irrelevant to everything.  The nfl is a different game.  His usefulness at michigan really doesn't translate to the nfl in 2018.  

And yes, being switched the less valuable safety role is a demotion.  

As for when he covers the slot, we'll see how good he is at that.  I'm not optimistic.  Having an extra nickel corner or more versatile safety out there in his place would be preferred for such situations.

As for what williams does with him, my guess is williams would prefer a better player period.  

[thenew23]

2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

SS*

Yes. A typo. Fixed

[MLD Woody]

9 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

what he did at michigan is really irrelevant to everything.  The nfl is a different game.  His usefulness at michigan really doesn't translate to the nfl in 2018.  

And yes, being switched the less valuable safety role is a demotion.  

As for when he covers the slot, we'll see how good he is at that.  I'm not optimistic.  Having an extra nickel corner or more versatile safety out there in his place would be preferred for such situations.

As for what williams does with him, my guess is williams would prefer a better player period.  

You asked how he had no real experience covering TEs. I told you. What he did and didn't do at Michigan isn't irrelevant in that regard. It also does translate. The game is evolving and those same skills are more important. We have a DC that can take advantage of it.

Less valuable in your opinion.

A slot CB would not be as useful if you still want to provide a blitzes threat and run support. 

Sure, every DC would prefer all pros across their roster, but that's not happening. If you think Williams had no input on us drafting him you're crazy.

[Tacosman]

7 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

You asked how he had no real experience covering TEs. I told you. What he did and didn't do at Michigan isn't irrelevant in that regard. It also does translate. The game is evolving and those same skills are more important. We have a DC that can take advantage of it.

Less valuable in your opinion.

A slot CB would not be as useful if you still want to provide a blitzes threat and run support. 

Sure, every DC would prefer all pros across their roster, but that's not happening. If you think Williams had no input on us drafting him you're crazy.

no, the skills he showed at michigan are not the direction the game is evolving.  Thats why the pick was mostly panned at the time, and thats why it is panned even more in hindsight as we saw his 'skills' in 2017.  

It's clear the direction across the nfl is not too add more guys in the secondary/safety with linebacker skill sets primarily.  

Look at tre boston....he's a strong safety that is just a much better version of even a realistically optimistic version of what Peppers may be this year, and he managed all of a 1 year 1.5 million dollar contract in the offseason this year.  And  Even a pro-peppers guy would rather have boston on this team playing SS than peppers.  

[Clevfan4life]

im hoping williams can slowly start creeping him closer to the box when he understands how to recover better. Thats when he might become one of the most important players on the D.

[gumby73]

well he's a guy that will talk up & down about his defensive personal.. 

  almost 17 mins.(l loved it) Peppers near the end but don't miss the coaching of D.Ward..Enjoy!