FORBES OT/OG

[Flugel]

On 4/28/2019 at 2:09 PM, Ibleedbrown said:

I’m guessing at his size and at his school he was a man among boys, but watching this you can see the appeal. Looks like a good candidate for misdirection plays, which l tend to think Kitchens is pretty good at drawing up, and you can definitely see the “finisher” compliment he was given in the interview clip. Gonna be fun to watch this guy develop.

He seems to have the feets to stick at tackle. 

Well said!  He gets from 1 side of the formation to other at the blink of an eye especially considering he did it as a Tackle. That projects extremely well for trapping and pulling at the next level, which could move him to Guard (aside from the arm length).

[Flugel]

On 4/28/2019 at 8:25 PM, Ibleedbrown said:

So l doubt there will be many designed plays where he’s sweeping behind the line to pick up a block on the other side of Center, but it’s a good asset to have. 

Those are trap plays you speak of and he seems ideal for those.  That's what often unfolds on the mis-direction counters you spoke of in another one of your posts.  There's short traps and long traps but not every defensive scheme is vulnerable to them so you have to pick the right opportunities to call those.  Also, if we do any bootleg/waggle passes - it's not uncommon to pull the OG from 1 side of the formation to the other leading the QB out of the pocket for pass or run.

[calfoxwc]

Just thinkin - if an offensive tackle has a long wingspan but sluggish feet and poor balance....wouldn't having

really quick feet and excellent balance make up for a few inches of wingspan lacking?

Just askin...I would think so, but....

[PoeticG]

Corbett, Forbes, Bitonio, Tretter and Robinson will be able to buy Baker enough time to find his guy. Baker won't hold on to the ball, get it out and to the playmakers, or take off, quick. They will be a solid line for us.  

[Zombo]

7 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Corbett, Forbes, Bitonio, Tretter and Robinson will be able to buy Baker enough time to find his guy. Baker won't hold on to the ball, get it out and to the playmakers, or take off, quick. They will be a solid line for us.  

Where is the love for Chris Hubbard? Really played well down the stretch.

Zombo

[Tour2ma]

16 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Just thinkin - if an offensive tackle has a long wingspan but sluggish feet and poor balance....wouldn't having

really quick feet and excellent balance make up for a few inches of wingspan lacking?

Just askin...I would think so, but....

Few inches begins to push the limits, but yes, I'd trade some span for better feet.

We've seen a number of 6'6+ OTs in preseason getting beat play after play by speed rushers. OT is slow off the ball... can't get into position so reach, which includes bending at waist, which ends balance...

If his arms are too short, however, the OT, who has to keep his shoulders perpendicular to a line drawn from him to his QB, will struggle to keep even shorter armed DEs from one-armed "stabbing" them in the chest and sending them off balance. Longer armed DEs can bull both arms into the OT's chest and then control the OT by grabbing their breast plate and pulling or pushing the OT whenever they like.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Few inches begins to push the limits, but yes, I'd trade some span for better feet.

We've seen a number of 6'6+ OTs in preseason getting beat play after play by speed rushers. OT is slow off the ball... can't get into position so reach, which includes bending at waist, which ends balance...

If his arms are too short, however, the OT, who has to keep his shoulders perpendicular to a line drawn from him to his QB, will struggle to keep even shorter armed DEs from one-armed "stabbing" them in the chest and sending them off balance. Longer armed DEs can bull both arms into the OT's chest and then control the OT by grabbing their breast plate and pulling or pushing the OT whenever they like.

 

Keep an eye on Forbes vs Vernon in camp for that very example. 

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Few inches begins to push the limits, but yes, I'd trade some span for better feet.

We've seen a number of 6'6+ OTs in preseason getting beat play after play by speed rushers. OT is slow off the ball... can't get into position so reach, which includes bending at waist, which ends balance...

If his arms are too short, however, the OT, who has to keep his shoulders perpendicular to a line drawn from him to his QB, will struggle to keep even shorter armed DEs from one-armed "stabbing" them in the chest and sending them off balance. Longer armed DEs can bull both arms into the OT's chest and then control the OT by grabbing their breast plate and pulling or pushing the OT whenever they like.

   I got that - I was thinkin of a player - couldn't remember his name on the instant, lol, ...Cameron Erving. 34 1/8 " wingspan....

but didn't have much of a love for the game, not much on aggressiveness I think it was... very athletic... even very athletic, I don't think he was very bendable....still was never able to play at LOT. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't the inch of shorter arm (one arm push to one side, right?) is a problem that isn't able to be overcome with quickness, power, agility, and aggressiveness/work ethic...

   Of course, all things being equal, I'd take the longer-armed guy, sure. I honestly don't know - Flugels was a mean offensive lineman - I thought of Flugels playing football when I heard Bitonio, Corbett and Forbes' meanness on the field.

[PoeticG]

17 hours ago, Zombo said:

Where is the love for Chris Hubbard? Really played well down the stretch.

Zombo

Certainly need a good guy to step up in a pinch. Can't have enough of these guys. 

[Tour2ma]

On 5/8/2019 at 10:27 AM, calfoxwc said:

   I got that - I was thinkin of a player - couldn't remember his name on the instant, lol, ...Cameron Erving. 34 1/8 " wingspan....

but didn't have much of a love for the game, not much on aggressiveness I think it was... very athletic... even very athletic, I don't think he was very bendable....still was never able to play at LOT. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't the inch of shorter arm (one arm push to one side, right?) is a problem that isn't able to be overcome with quickness, power, agility, and aggressiveness/work ethic...

   Of course, all things being equal, I'd take the longer-armed guy, sure. I honestly don't know - Flugels was a mean offensive lineman - I thought of Flugels playing football when I heard Bitonio, Corbett and Forbes' meanness on the field.

1. Don't confuse arm-length (the measurement you quoted for Cam) with wingspan. Wingspan, finger tip to finger tip, eliminates measurement variables and includes the width of the OL's frame.

2. Again... within limits I'll trade off arm-length, but there is one thing you fail to mention.... Technique.

I used to think any player could learn technique. Drafting athletic OL and  teaching tech was the way you built OL depth... both in the NFL and in various sims (Head Coach, Madden, etc.), but now so many OL leave college with such a weak foundation that this path is far less traveled. In fact only the Pats (or more precisely, Scarnecchia) have a recent track record of "raising" OL.

3. TBH... I'm not sure what qualifies as mean for an OL in today's game. Maybe consistently finishing blocks to the ground? There certainly are no Conrad Doblers in today's NFL.

[calfoxwc]

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

1. Don't confuse arm-length (the measurement you quoted for Cam) with wingspan. Wingspan, finger tip to finger tip, eliminates measurement variables and includes the width of the OL's frame.

  ah. Good point. I was on a roll, too. dammit. lol

[choco]

On 5/8/2019 at 8:14 AM, Zombo said:

Where is the love for Chris Hubbard? Really played well down the stretch.

Zombo

Mitchell Schwartz

[Zombo]

On 5/9/2019 at 2:06 AM, PoeticG said:

Certainly need a good guy to step up in a pinch. Can't have enough of these guys. 

You're benching him for a 6th round guard?

Zombo

[Zombo]

26 minutes ago, choco said:

Mitchell Schwartz

Yes, he is a former right tackle for the Browns too.

Zombo

?

[The Gipper]

43 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Yes, he is a former right tackle for the Browns too.

Zombo

?

How did we let him go?

[bjh2130]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

How did we let him go?

Browns offered him the most money.  He was offered a more than fair contract. He thought he was worth more so he turned it down. Proceeded to go on the free agency tour. Schwartz found out Browns offer was the best came back asking for original offer. Browns took original offer off the table and lowered guaranteed a bit. He got pissed and signed with KC for less money.   Sort of like the terrelle Pryor situation except the contract he turned down was given to Kenny britt so when Pryor came back there was no offer to give him.  Alex mack, however just wanted out and took way less to play with a "contender".

[gumby73]

2 hours ago, bjh2130 said:

Schwartz  got pissed and signed with KC for less money.     Alex mack, however just wanted out and took way less to play with a "contender".

 always starts with ownership.. Haslem is still football business clueless..ask his wife.. Farmer & SB sat on millions of dollars of cap space money everyday, while these 2 guys should have gotten paid as pro bowlers to the team that drafted them after 3 years..Cleveland..They chose to go win now, never hearing of Baker Mayfield 🧔..Tretter, Bitonio up next. Dorse your move?  

11 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 Wingspan, finger tip to finger tip, eliminates measurement variables and includes the width of the OL's frame.

I used to think any player could learn technique.  but now so many OL leave college with such a weak foundation that this path is far less traveled. In fact only the Pats (or more precisely, Scarnecchia) have a recent track record of "raising" OL.

3. TBH... I'm not sure what qualifies as mean for an OL in today's game. There certainly are no Conrad Doblers in today's NFL.

^^pure f'n OL gold right here ^^..well said Tour 👍.. We have drafted back to back, 2 college Tackles with a 78" & 79" wingspan respectively. Last season Orlando Brown 85", McGlinchy 81",Kolten Miller 83",Q.Nelson 83" wingspans..am becoming a bigger fan of Greg Robinson (age 26) winning that 7M dollar prove it deal by the end of season..

[The Gipper]

Gumby:   always starts with ownership.. Haslem is still football business clueless..ask his wife.. Farmer & SB sat on millions of dollars of cap space money everyday, while these 2 guys should have gotten paid as pro bowlers to the team that drafted them after 3 years..Cleveland..They chose to go win now, never hearing of Baker Mayfield 🧔..Tretter, Bitonio up next. Dorse your move?  

Thanks, now I remember.  That is what bad ownership/management does for you.  Let us hope we are over those days.

[Orion]

The Browns may have told him that he could play Tackle in case he went undrafted.  He would then be more apt to sign with us.  Now that they've drafted him they pretty much owe him a shot at tackle...but that doesn't mean they won't move him.  Doesn't mean he makes the team either.  All of the draft picks are good in May.

[jiggins7919]

On 4/28/2019 at 7:53 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Think he probably needs to move inside like Bitonio and Corbett?

I believe I heard on Browns Daily that was the plan, but who knows at this early stage in the process. What I certainly love is the potential value we have with this guy. We could develop Desmond Harrison into a viable player, and then develop this guy for next year. Don't forget that Harrison got some incredible experience last year, and he's been healthy for quite some time and is getting the full benefit of an offseason workout. One of his biggest challenges was his raw power, and if he gets that worked out, he's going to have a chance. 

[jiggins7919]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

The Browns may have told him that he could play Tackle in case he went undrafted.  He would then be more apt to sign with us.  Now that they've drafted him they pretty much owe him a shot at tackle...but that doesn't mean they won't move him.  Doesn't mean he makes the team either.  All of the draft picks are good in May.

Well, almost all of them. Remember when Tampa Bay drafted a kicker in the 2nd round? And then cut him midway into the season? Bwahaha! 

[The Gipper]

Is he related to George Forbes:

 

[Flugel]

On 5/8/2019 at 11:27 AM, calfoxwc said:

   I got that - I was thinkin of a player - couldn't remember his name on the instant, lol, ...Cameron Erving. 34 1/8 " wingspan....

but didn't have much of a love for the game, not much on aggressiveness I think it was... very athletic... even very athletic, I don't think he was very bendable....still was never able to play at LOT. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't the inch of shorter arm (one arm push to one side, right?) is a problem that isn't able to be overcome with quickness, power, agility, and aggressiveness/work ethic...

   Of course, all things being equal, I'd take the longer-armed guy, sure. I honestly don't know - Flugels was a mean offensive lineman - I thought of Flugels playing football when I heard Bitonio, Corbett and Forbes' meanness on the field.

Thanks Cals!   I wasn't a superstar by any means; but I tried for a guy that was only 5'10".  I went to countless football camps in the 10 years I played. I also learned a lot about using my lack of height to my advantage in the leverage wars favoring pad height, base and getting to contact/location first.  The last camp I went to my junior year in high school that had kids from all over NY state - I won the trophy for the most outstanding offensive linemen.  That served as a GREAT reminder to myself that hard work really pays off. Ironically, the guy that handed me the trophy was the Head Coach of a rival school.  Anyway, the same guy later became an Athletic Director and hired me as a Head Coach in the high school football program his son played for (as a Center).

I played back in the 70s and early 80s when the fundamentals were quite a bit different on the line of scrimmage. Arm length wasn't nearly as important for OL as it is today; and HOF OG John Hannah epitomized why.  If anyone is as old as me or older - they know what I'm talking about.  For example, when I played it was very common for offensive linemen to wear arm pads.  As my older brother used to say - "Asss kickers use these as a weapon you throw into the opponent's rib cage.  Asss kickees wear these for protection."   Like he said, we used to throw our forearms into the guys we were blocking while we were also hitting them with our shoulder pads.  In the offseason, I did a lot of power cleans to prepare for throwing those padded up flippers where they belonged. I also did a lot of deadlifts and leg presses.  While all that was important, the key to winning position was always getting to location/contact first, better pad height, and superior base.  We did a board drill where we had 1 blocker going against another.  It started by the 2 OL facing each other in the middle of a board that was about 8-10 yards long.  It ended when 1 guy drove the other off the end of the board.   That not only taught leverage; but it prevented complacency with starters and provided motivation for backups on a 60 man roster. "You want MY job?  All you gotta do is beat me!"  That became the mindset one earned busting tail all offseason and inseason to establish; and in order to defend such a passion - you can't be a nice guy.

Today, the mosh pit is different and the fundamentals have changed as the game has evolved to emphasize the pass.  Length of arms and size and strength of hands have become essential to OL achieving success despite some occasional exceptions to the rule.  I don't know how I would have done 5-10 years later to be honest.

Sorry for the testosterone stories; but this 55 year old has been appreciates the rare opportunity to pretend I was something in this game once upon a time... 

[choco]

22 hours ago, Zombo said:

Yes, he is a former right tackle for the Browns too.

Zombo

?

Hubbard's getting the Schwartz treatment from fans

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I believe I heard on Browns Daily that was the plan, but who knows at this early stage in the process. What I certainly love is the potential value we have with this guy. We could develop Desmond Harrison into a viable player, and then develop this guy for next year. Don't forget that Harrison got some incredible experience last year, and he's been healthy for quite some time and is getting the full benefit of an offseason workout. One of his biggest challenges was his raw power, and if he gets that worked out, he's going to have a chance. 

Back in 83, we drafted a guy like this in round 12 out of Boston University - Paul Farren.  As a long shot to make the team, this former college Guard and Center not only made this team.  He started his first 6 games at RT in 84 before starting 13 games for us LT in 85 (when both Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards apiece).  In 86, he started all 16 games - but some of them were at LG due to injuries (we were 12-4 that year). In 87, he started all 12 games he suited up for at LT and started all 15 games there he suited up for in 88.  In 89 and 90, he had 29 more starts at LT.  That's a lot of starts at a really important position during the decade the Browns frequented the playoffs the most in since the SB era. Farren finally settled into a backup role in 91 and retired.

Not a bad career for a guy that required some degree of patience during the coach em up/development process.  Sometimes I have to remind myself not to write everyone off that doesn't shine immediately.  

Tony (T-Bone) Jones is another guy that comes to mind in the sense he was undrafted out of Western Carolina.  In the 184 games he played in from 1988 to 2000, he started 174 of them.  Many of those were with us from 88-95.  As much as I eternally HATE the Denver Broncos, I was really happy for him when he started for 2 of their SB Champion teams and made the Pro Bowl in 1998.   

[TexasAg1969]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

Sorry for the testosterone stories; but this 55 year old has been appreciates the rare opportunity to pretend I was something in this game once upon a time... 

Wait 'till you hit 72. The older I get the better I was!.🤣

[calfoxwc]

39 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Wait 'till you hit 72. The older I get the better I was!.🤣

There's your problem, I'm only 68, and I don't look it at all, because I think young...

[Zombo]

20 hours ago, choco said:

Hubbard's getting the Schwartz treatment from fans

OK, got it ... and I agree.

Zombo

[Flugel]

23 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Wait 'till you hit 72. The older I get the better I was!.🤣

That's a riot! 

Then there's the world according to Ghoolie.  "Oh yeah Flugel?  While you were trying to best case scenario yourself up a PHUCKING participation ribbon, I made 1st team All America on the varsity football team at 16 years of age without wearing a helmet or shoulder pads that the rest of the sissies required. When I turned 17, the gridiron challenge was boring and over; so I hung up the cleats and made my first million $.  By the time I turned 18 - I was the White Jim Brown that had both of Raquel Welch's ankles in the air in my bed on a regular basis. When I turned 19, I got so sick of Elvis asking to borrow money all the time I had to move to the other side of Memphis..."

[Zombo]

22 hours ago, Flugel said:

Thanks Cals!   I wasn't a superstar by any means; but I tried for a guy that was only 5'10".  I went to countless football camps in the 10 years I played. I also learned a lot about using my lack of height to my advantage in the leverage wars favoring pad height, base and getting to contact/location first.  The last camp I went to my junior year in high school that had kids from all over NY state - I won the trophy for the most outstanding offensive linemen.  That served as a GREAT reminder to myself that hard work really pays off. Ironically, the guy that handed me the trophy was the Head Coach of a rival school.  Anyway, the same guy later became an Athletic Director and hired me as a Head Coach in the high school football program his son played for (as a Center).

I played back in the 70s and early 80s when the fundamentals were quite a bit different on the line of scrimmage. Arm length wasn't nearly as important for OL as it is today; and HOF OG John Hannah epitomized why.  If anyone is as old as me or older - they know what I'm talking about.  For example, when I played it was very common for offensive linemen to wear arm pads.  As my older brother used to say - "Asss kickers use these as a weapon you throw into the opponent's rib cage.  Asss kickees wear these for protection."   Like he said, we used to throw our forearms into the guys we were blocking while we were also hitting them with our shoulder pads.  In the offseason, I did a lot of power cleans to prepare for throwing those padded up flippers where they belonged. I also did a lot of deadlifts and leg presses.  While all that was important, the key to winning position was always getting to location/contact first, better pad height, and superior base.  We did a board drill where we had 1 blocker going against another.  It started by the 2 OL facing each other in the middle of a board that was about 8-10 yards long.  It ended when 1 guy drove the other off the end of the board.   That not only taught leverage; but it prevented complacency with starters and provided motivation for backups on a 60 man roster. "You want MY job?  All you gotta do is beat me!"  That became the mindset one earned busting tail all offseason and inseason to establish; and in order to defend such a passion - you can't be a nice guy.

Today, the mosh pit is different and the fundamentals have changed as the game has evolved to emphasize the pass.  Length of arms and size and strength of hands have become essential to OL achieving success despite some occasional exceptions to the rule.  I don't know how I would have done 5-10 years later to be honest.

Sorry for the testosterone stories; but this 55 year old has been appreciates the rare opportunity to pretend I was something in this game once upon a time... 

Interesting that you admit to being 5"10 now.

I'm 5'11"

Zombo