Myles Garrett Agree or Disagree with DPOY?

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

18 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

oh I know, my only point was this guy could lead the team in sacks with or without myles on the other side. He's that freakin good. 

Ok so you’re saying we have two #1 caliber pass rushers. And if somebody got hurt, we would still be good.

IMO, Vernon is more of an all around guy, good against the run and pass. Yes he has bully strength, I agree. But no way would I say is he more athletic than Garrett.

[Clevfan4life]

8 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Ok so you’re saying we have two #1 caliber pass rushers. And if somebody got hurt, we would still be good.

IMO, Vernon is more of an all around guy, good against the run and pass. Yes he has bully strength, I agree. But no way would I say is he more athletic than Garrett.

i dunno dude....watching vernon line up as a mlb'er, crash through a gap and chase down a quick little african american boy from behind was rather eye opening. 

[TexasAg1969]

5 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

i dunno dude....watching vernon line up as a mlb'er, crash through a gap and chase down a quick little african american boy from behind was rather eye opening. 

And watching Garrett line up over the center and beat the RG and C to the gap at the snap and hit the poor slow QB was pretty damn athletic and fast. LOL🤗

[DieHardBrownsFan]

5 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

And watching Garrett line up over the center and beat the RG and C to the gap at the snap and hit the poor slow QB was pretty damn athletic and fast. LOL🤗

Well see this year.

[Clevfan4life]

11 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

And watching Garrett line up over the center and beat the RG and C to the gap at the snap and hit the poor slow QB was pretty damn athletic and fast. LOL🤗

well true but vernon stunts inside and beats interior OL too. Look vernon has 5 extra years of NFL onfield exp as well as time spent in the weight room....thsts why he's able to do whst he does at only 260lbs. At 28 if Myles is still in tge league and didnt have a major injury....we might see things we've never seen in the NFL. 

[Flugel]

On 5/6/2019 at 2:19 PM, Clevfan4life said:

did anyone catch in that video where Myles said Williams restricted his pass rushing moves? Im……...I dunno right now. Im completely dumbfounded to put it mildly. If that's true.....and I would think for Myles to speak about it publically like that it must be.....I mean god damn now I wish we would have tarred and feathered GW on his way out. I told y'all I smelled some bullshit with this defense last year. Dudes were doing weird shit that I couldn't explain...….maybe this is why. Is GW that arrogant that he looks at a gifted rusher like Garrett and says nahh that toolbelt of pass rush moves you've been developing for years now..that's all bullshit. When any noob fan can see the best pass rushers in the NFL today and throughout history, develop a "repertoire" of moves. This is insane. Literally. It just can't be true.....a guy like Williams cannot be this stupid. 

I like Myles but I don't think this was necessary at all.  Do we really have all the information here in terms of why?  If anything, GW gets more criticized for being too aggressive and blitz happy.  Hear me out before we accept GW just woke up stupid under Ohio skies. Although I will accept occasional bouts of senile (ie: all those teams that wanted to hire him as HC).

First, GW took another guy named Jevon Kearse that began his college career at Florida as a Safety before transitioning to a standup OLB in a 4-3.  In 1999, GW was the DC when Kearse was a rookie that changed his position 1 more time to DE.  As a result, Kearse became NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, First Team All Pro and AFC Defensive Player of the Year all in the 1999 rookie season GW was his DC.  He had 14.5 sacks, 8 forced fumbles and 15 tackles for a loss. Coincidentally, that was the same year TN made it to their only SB. In 2000, he had the 2nd highest sack volume of his career with 11 (in GW's final season as his DC).  After GW's departure, Kearse dropped to 10 sacks - and then he proceeded to never reach double digit sacks again in his career under different DCs. Needless to say, it wasn't GW that put the muzzle or a leash on the Freak.

Next, the ONLY year the Saints won a SB, GW was their DC.  This was the same season former Buckeye DE Will Smith had a career best 13 sacks in his 9 year NFL career.   Again, I see no muzzle or leash on GW's best edge rusher.

Understanding this so far, my guess is there were sound reasons GW simplified some stuff for Garrett.  If memory serves me right, GW hooked him up with HOF DE Bruce Smith to work with MG on his pass rush moves and fundamentals.  One of Bruce Smith's unique/patented pass rush moves was the spin move that Dwight Freeney would later duplicate with great success.  Of course what sets up such success, is that first step quickness and explosion that can bust a LT leaning/committing to stop it (which MG definitely has). That said, do we really want a promising young pass rusher that had a 2 year high ankle sprain at TAM and throughout the rookie season in Cleveland re-aggravating it again?  I'll bet this was a big reason GW wanted him to focus on the essential fundamentals (rip/swim/etc) before adding to the repertoire (he has the rest of the career ahead of him to build upon).  While Bruce Smith had great fundamentals to share - MG's position coach Clyde Simmons (19 sacks in 92 and 13 sacks in 91 making 1st team All Pro in both years) also possessed pass rush expertise from his 15 year career as a DE. 

My 2 cents, there was a lot of smoke and mirror in that defense last year and the talent/depth/injuries at LB as well as how far into the depth chart we often had to go at CB as well as talent/depth issues at DT. Our personnel dictated what we did as we contemplated why the defense that previously shut Baltimore down suddenly couldn't tackle anyone in the Rats' offense throughout the rematch.  That said, we did have a pick 6 called back within the smoke and mirror.  Hurrying passers wasn't the problem most of the year.  Our biggest problem on D was establishing consistency at stopping the run.   Kind of like what the Buffalo Bills struggled to do in the SB where the Giants had 2 recording setting scoring drives exceeding 11 minutes and 13 minutes largely behind Jumbo Elliott and right AT Bruce Smith's swim moves and spin moves (that took himself OUT of the play).  They ran at the olay all day said the poet that didn't know it.... And maybe this is something the experience volumes of GW and Simmons worried about while they had to frequently start/play band aids in the LB Corps and secondary behind MG. We DID draft 2 LBers right?  We also added a veteran DT to upgrade 1 glaring weakness inside.

Anyway, Myles Garrett had a Pro Bowl season we hope he builds upon.  Meanwhile, at least on paper, we addressed weaknesses and depth while we hope we have better luck at keeping corners healthy.  Stopping and slowing the run at the line of scrimmage can definitely prevent some additional wear and tear to our DBs.

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Flugel

[jiggins7919]

Great response, Flugel. I will say there were definitely times when I'd watch Myles and I'd be so frustrated that he repeatedly did his super wide edge rush, only to be nowhere near the play. The other teams seemed to know this and just drifted to the other side. I didn't see a ton of inverted spins, and frankly, his bull rush might be his best move against certain OL. 

I've always felt the biggest hurdle to Myles' sack numbers was the opposite DE. Too often Myles got double and triple teamed, the QB drifted away from the left side, and Myles wasn't a factor. If Vernon gets consistent pressure, I'm not sure WHAT the ceiling is for Myles. He could be a 16 sack guy if healthy. 

[Flugel]

On 5/6/2019 at 7:19 PM, Clevfan4life said:

with your standard run of the mill pass rushers, sure...get them good at one or two moves and you can get some pockets collapsing. With a talent like Garrett....I don't see the logic behind that. Let him react to what the tackle does. And as Garrett said in that video, he was becoming too predictable. Predictability is a bitch in the NFL. 

While true, it's also possible MG isn't very good or nearly as polished at other moves (he had all off season ahead to work on) to the extent Cyde Simmons and GW didn't want him wasting any important game reps on trial and error.  You gotta remember this was the first season he wasn't playing though an injury that kept getting re-aggravated so he's off to a good start. 

If his biggest asset is 1st step explosion, you hold that hostage with the reaction to tackle mode you speak of.  MG is a #1 overall pick here to dictate not react.  I think he was doing really good with that so much so that when he was beating a lot of guys - MG began to complain none of the officials were calling what he felt were blatant holds, rinse and repeat.  Quite a few of those came when he already got past the tackles that grabbed him from behind. 

Just me; but I would have rather had Myles not say anything and work on these other moves in the off season.  If he shows a position coach or DC the new moves are worth tapping -  they'll give it a green light.  The constant decisions go for it 4th and 1 stuff when we had the ball should remind you GW isn't a conservative kind of guy at all.  Not only that, when he got the HC job in Buffalo years ago - he said on a radio interview that he often chipped in to help the STs in practice and the lateral they call the Music City Miracle from Frank Wychek to Dyson on the KO Return Unit was his idea they practiced until the right situation presented itself.   Nothing conservative about the guy. I'm not saying we can't do better at DC; but I am saying GW probably had good enough reasons to just help MG make a Pro Bowl. In our gridiron chess table - the rook didn't need to be a queen.  At least not yet...

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

 I think he was doing really good with that so much so that when he was beating a lot of guys - MG began to complain none of the officials were calling what he felt were blatant holds, rinse and repeat.  Quite a few of those came when he already got past the tackles that grabbed him from behind. 

He should have been used to that because in the SEC they used to get away with arms around the neck as he ran by them, often all the way to the ground and not called. They would pretend that their hand just slipped off his chest and inadvertently hooked around his neck. It's an old OL trick that still fools even NFL refs.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

On 5/18/2019 at 12:27 PM, Clevfan4life said:

i dunno dude....watching vernon line up as a mlb'er, crash through a gap and chase down a quick little african american boy from behind was rather eye opening. 

Different types of athleticism. But yea, he’s a beast, man 

[Clevfan4life]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

While true, it's also possible MG isn't very good or nearly as polished at other moves (

not sure i buy that based on what i saw in college and watching our own OL struggle with him. I can buy that in alot of circumstances ur trying to create a specific pocket situation so u dont want ur rushers doing whatever....esoecially with mobile qb's. But when its just get to the qb anyway u can....u dont want guys focused on 1 or 2 predictable moves. Makes no sense to me. I see ur poiht with Kearse but Kearse was no myles in terms of oversll skillset. 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

not sure i buy that based on what i saw in college and watching our own OL struggle with him. I can buy that in alot of circumstances ur trying to create a specific pocket situation so u dont want ur rushers doing whatever....esoecially with mobile qb's. But when its just get to the qb anyway u can....u dont want guys focused on 1 or 2 predictable moves. Makes no sense to me. I see ur poiht with Kearse but Kearse was no myles in terms of oversll skillset. 

I'm not sure there's anything I can tell you that will make you feel better Clevsies.  I still don't think we got the full story in terms of the why they only wanted him using 2 of the moves he's been taught. I do think there are reasons the man behind the decision never got to share in the way this info went public.  If not, things are adding up here like A2+B2=ABBA

His position coach Clyde Simmons was a 2 time All Pro and 15 year vet with a 19 sack season and 13 sack season on the resume as a DE.  Same guy coached Robert Quinn to 19 sacks in 2013 (a single season franchise record) and helped get Aaron Donald off to a great start hurrying/sacking passers.  Hard to see a handcuffing mentality from Simmons there.  Bruce Smith also worked with MG on moves and fundamentals thanks in large to GW initiating it. That's a pretty good wealth of knowledge and instructions Williams helped equip MG with. That's why it seems weird GW would do all that only to restrict the volume of moves he wants out of MG if had zero reason to do that. 

It doesn't make sense especially when GW got career best seasons out of Kearse (as a rookie playing a brand new position) and Will Smith in the same seasons he coached both of those defenses to SBs.  Pretty good track record for getting career best sack totals of out talented DEs that doesn't have me thinking chicken shitt DC at all.  MG made the Pro Bowl the first season he was healthy in Cleveland.  That may not make you feel better; but it's pretty good start to build on.  If MG is disappointed like you are - that can be a good thing in the sense we won't have to worry about anyone needing to light his fanny.    It's lit!

We'll see what happens this year...  

[nickers]

18 hours ago, Flugel said:

I'm not sure there's anything I can tell you that will make you feel better Clevsies.  I still don't think we got the full story in terms of the why they only wanted him using 2 of the moves he's been taught. I do think there are reasons the man behind the decision never got to share in the way this info went public.  If not, things are adding up here like A2+B2=ABBA

His position coach Clyde Simmons was a 2 time All Pro and 15 year vet with a 19 sack season and 13 sack season on the resume as a DE.  Same guy coached Robert Quinn to 19 sacks in 2013 (a single season franchise record) and helped get Aaron Donald off to a great start hurrying/sacking passers.  Hard to see a handcuffing mentality from Simmons there.  Bruce Smith also worked with MG on moves and fundamentals thanks in large to GW initiating it. That's a pretty good wealth of knowledge and instructions Williams helped equip MG with. That's why it seems weird GW would do all that only to restrict the volume of moves he wants out of MG if had zero reason to do that. 

It doesn't make sense especially when GW got career best seasons out of Kearse (as a rookie playing a brand new position) and Will Smith in the same seasons he coached both of those defenses to SBs.  Pretty good track record for getting career best sack totals of out talented DEs that doesn't have me thinking chicken shitt DC at all.  MG made the Pro Bowl the first season he was healthy in Cleveland.  That may not make you feel better; but it's pretty good start to build on.  If MG is disappointed like you are - that can be a good thing in the sense we won't have to worry about anyone needing to light his fanny.    It's lit!

We'll see what happens this year...  

I just don't see MG as "Generational"... Michael Jordan and Jim Brown were "Generational".... MG has been just a little bit better than average.. I'm expecting BIG things out of him this year.. Or he can take a hike back to Texas...

 

EDIT!: I personally think MG is vastly overrated..  But we'll see... So far his sample size has been "just ok"...

[Clevfan4life]

3 hours ago, nickers said:

I just don't see MG as "Generational"... Michael Jordan and Jim Brown were "Generational".... MG has been just a little bit better than average.. I'm expecting BIG things out of him this year.. Or he can take a hike back to Texas...

 

EDIT!: I personally think MG is vastly overrated..  But we'll see... So far his sample size has been "just ok"...

he's been on a bad team with no other edge help. Khalil mack had 19 sacks after year 2...myles has 20. 

[TexasAg1969]

Myles has become a "Waterboys" supporter and is trying to raise $45,000 towards a water well in East Africa. They talked about this briefly on NFL Radio yesterday.

https://waterboys.org/player/myles-garrett/

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

he's been on a bad team with no other edge help. Khalil mack had 19 sacks after year 2...myles has 20. 

I get that.. This is a pivotal year for him... This is where you hope he ascends toward his prime...

[Clevfan4life]

6 hours ago, nickers said:

I get that.. This is a pivotal year for him... This is where you hope he ascends toward his prime...

yeah there's really no excuse this year to not be a 12+ sack guy is there? lol. If you can't get double digit sacks with that front?......

[Canton Mike]

Myles is one helluva DE. I know it, you all know it, & NFL Teams know it. He will get a lot of "special treatment" from OLs this year. The big difference will be the guys on the DL with him. When MG is stopped, opportunities will be there for others & we have the horses now to take advantage of those opportunites. His sacks may go up, down, or stay as is, but his mere presence benefits the TEAM effort, whether or not he makes the tackle.

Myles Garrett is a playmaker AND play creator for others. THAT (imo) is what makes him great & so valuable. DPOY (based on stats)? Who knows? DMVP (based on value to Team)? Quite possibly.

We'll see.

Mike

[choco]

Then I think about how many times he was dragged down on the way to many other sacks. 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

2 hours ago, choco said:

Then I think about how many times he was dragged down on the way to many other sacks. 

Exactly. Sacks are great for stats guys but QB pressure and penalties are stats that don’t get the same love. 

If Baker is the man on offense, he is the man on Defense. That’s what #1 picks are supposed to be. Explosive. Strong, long arms, etc.

[Canton Dawg]

Just don’t make him angry...you wouldn’t like MG when he’s angry.

[gumby73]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:05 PM, TexasAg1969 said:

Myles has become a "Waterboys" supporter and is trying to raise $45,000 towards a water well in East Africa. They talked about this briefly on NFL Radio yesterday.

https://waterboys.org/player/myles-garrett/

Shout Out to Myles Garrett from the newly retired Chris Long  https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27158495  big shoes to fill..Congrats & thanks MG.. (start about 3:20)  

[TexasAg1969]

10 hours ago, gumby73 said:

Shout Out to Myles Garrett from the newly retired Chris Long  https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27158495  big shoes to fill..Congrats & thanks MG.. (start about 3:20)  

Wow!-Myles as Waterboys Captain "for the next 10 or 15 years, whenever your HOF career is done".

[Clevfan4life]

whens the fucking preseason start already fuck

 

fuck

 

 

fuck

 

 

 

get this show fuckib started already

[Canton Mike]

I'm guessing (?? LOL) that Myles has his fair share of Fans other than Browns' Fans. It's nice to see him getting this well deserved praise from peers.

Mike

[gumby73]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

get this show fuckib started already

One of my favorite DE moves to watch

    Reggie White's Hump move, never gets old watching..Garrett has this in him..quit holding him back 💪 

[Clevfan4life]

3 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

One of my favorite DE moves to watch

    Reggie White's Hump move, never gets old watching..Garrett has this in him..quit holding him back 💪 

thats the move joey had coming out of osu....one of the biggest reasons i wanted him as our LDE. That move completely collapses interior pockets and if the qb spills back it put him in the crosshairs of the speed RDE. In "traditional" 4-3 rush personnel packages at least. 

 

 

 

fuuccckkk i hate talking pass rush with months still to go......fuck

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

I'm guessing (?? LOL) that Myles has his fair share of Fans other than Browns' Fans. It's nice to see him getting this well deserved praise from peers.

Mike

Just Aggie Faggies   

[TexasAg1969]

10 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Just Aggie Faggies