Browns hire Kevin Stefanski as HC

[BaconHound]

1 minute ago, runyon27 said:

This hire I find uninspiring but I hope it works, I hope he is the guy who will bring the discipline needed to make this team play up to its potential. He doesn't have to be flashy, just do a good job. Any word if he will be calling his own plays?

I believe he is a “players coach”, doesn’t scream discipline. I would’ve have like a disciplinarian but not sure OBJ, Landry, Garrett, Randall, etc. want to be held accountable 

[tiamat63]

15 minutes ago, BaconHound said:

Tia is right on the money. You need to make sure the film and analytics lineup early.  The failing I’ve seen the past many years in the draft is grabbing guys in the first round at positions that haven’t made immediate impacts or drafting positions out of whack. Garrett and Mayfield, even though I’m not a Baker fan, made sense.  Ward and NJokeWho didn’t to me.

Ward going to the pro-bowl and being graded as a top 15 CB year 1 made plenty of sense.  Especially given the marriage of need + talent at that time.

 

Edit:  @Tour2ma   @Dutch Oven

 

[Dutch Oven]

11 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Edit:  @Tour2ma   @Dutch Oven

 

 

[BaconHound]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Ward going to the pro-bowl and being graded as a top 15 CB year 1 made plenty of sense.  Especially given the marriage of need + talent at that time.

 

Edit:  @Tour2ma   @Dutch Oven

 

I may be one of the few guys who think that DB play has been diminished in this pass happy NFL.  Ward has been a very good player but if I’m trying to stop offenses in the NFL it’s control the line of scrimmage and get pressure on the QB.  DBs don’t get away with the grabbing and hand playing they used to.  Ward’s impact would be greater if the team was more polished.  So we drafted a DB when we weren’t controlling the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.  As I said earlier I’m for drafting DBs high for the Browns and will admit that isn’t popular.

[Tour2ma]

4 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

They had an enormous amount of draft capital in 2016 and 2017, and pissed most of it away. 

Knew they weren't ready for Prime time in 2016 so they rolled up and out into '17 and '18. 2016 was Round 3, 4, 5 dominated. Many misses, but also hit on a 4th, Schobert, and a 5th, Higgins.

2017 was Round One dominated... MG was a no brainer no one gives them credit for, yet they did not blow it did they? Peppers and Njoku? Jury is still out. And still managed to stock 2018 with an extra #1 and an extra #2...

Not great drafts? Yup, not great... although compared to Farmer's two they look pretty good

 

Now how about we discuss 2018 and 2019?

2018... Two 1sts and two 2nds and all we know for sure is that we have a great RB, Chubb. We also might have a good #2/3 WR, Ratley.

2019... we appear to have a good Kicker... hoo-fucking-ray... but we added a oft injured DE and a mixed-blessing WR thru trades that included our #1 and a major piece of our OL.

[BaconHound]

3 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Knew they weren't ready for Prime time in 2016 so they rolled up and out into '17 and '18. 2016 was Round 3, 4, 5 dominated. Many misses, but also hit on a 4th, Schobert, and a 5th, Higgins.

2017 was Round One dominated... MG was a no brainer no one gives them credit for, yet they did not blow it did they? Peppers and Njoku? Jury is still out. And still managed to stock 2018 with an extra #1 and an extra #2...

Not great drafts? Yup, not great... although compared to Farmer's two they look pretty good

 

Now how about we discuss 2018 and 2019?

2018... Two 1sts and two 2nds and all we know for sure is that we have a great RB, Chubb. We also might have a good #2/3 WR, Ratley.

2019... we appear to have a good Kicker... hoo-fucking-ray... but we added a oft injured DE and a mixed-blessing WR thru trades that included our #1 and a major piece of our OL.

I was not a huge fan of Peppers but he was playing better and he was better in the run game than anyone else on the current roster.

NJokeWho was a horrible pick.  Forget injuries, if you take a TE in the 1st round he better he can’t miss.
 

I was a Dorsey hater this year for the fact that he looked fans in the face while marching that trash OL out there.  He traded away pieces that would’ve made the team better for OBJ and Vernon, mistake.  As fans we get caught up in the hype but it’s a GM’s job to be calm and objective and evaluate the overall talent of the team.

[tiamat63]

18 minutes ago, BaconHound said:

I may be one of the few guys who think that DB play has been diminished in this pass happy NFL.  Ward has been a very good player but if I’m trying to stop offenses in the NFL it’s control the line of scrimmage and get pressure on the QB.  DBs don’t get away with the grabbing and hand playing they used to.  Ward’s impact would be greater if the team was more polished.  So we drafted a DB when we weren’t controlling the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.  As I said earlier I’m for drafting DBs high for the Browns and will admit that isn’t popular.

If anything, DB play and having premium athletes is more important than ever.  Gone are the days of Minnie and Dixon who got by on overly physical play and imposing their will on you.   There was a time a few years ago where I said the same thing and wanted the Browns to build front to back. But getting a good lay of the land on the defenses I love watching they all have something in common  - quality DB's.   And keep in mind, that's my first love.  So it takes a lot to say I feel the value might be diminished, then only to circle back around and realize how wrong I was.   But it is a position where you can "coach up" athletes as well as any. Take NE for example and their run of CB's.

 

18 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Knew they weren't ready for Prime time in 2016 so they rolled up and out into '17 and '18. 2016 was Round 3, 4, 5 dominated. Many misses, but also hit on a 4th, Schobert, and a 5th, Higgins.

2017 was Round One dominated... MG was a no brainer no one gives them credit for, yet they did not blow it did they? Peppers and Njoku? Jury is still out. And still managed to stock 2018 with an extra #1 and an extra #2...

Not great drafts? Yup, not great... although compared to Farmer's two they look pretty good

 

Now how about we discuss 2018 and 2019?

2018... Two 1sts and two 2nds and all we know for sure is that we have a great RB, Chubb. We also might have a good #2/3 WR, Ratley.

2019... we appear to have a good Kicker... hoo-fucking-ray... but we added a oft injured DE and a mixed-blessing WR thru trades that included our #1 and a major piece of our OL.

The issue isn't just the misses, Tour.  It's whom was selected, some of the head scratching that went with it, and the talent that was passed over in favor of said picks.  Especially given that 2016 draft.  2017 wasn't without it's flops either.  It is incredibly fortunate that Myles was rated as the highest player by more well known 3rd party grades on top of the fact he is a great football player to boot.  If he wasn't so highly regarded with the metrics, how might have that gone? We could very well be talking about our issues with Trubisky at the moment and, I admit hesitantly, Dutch is kind of right about that.   Talent eval between the more "conventional" minded front offices of days past and the more "analytical" one have their shared abysmal failures.   

My concern restated - the pendulum swung one way under Sashi and then the opposite side with the Dorse... only to produce some similar results.   My genuine hope is that the scouting department and our regional scouts have their voices heard by this new front office should they reach out to 3rd party grades in working to form their draft boards while developing their consensus players.  I just want the new faces to avoid the entrenchment and narrow sight that our previous two administrations have shown at times.  (Again, mostly regarding talent acquisition)

[ballpeen]

58 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Now you're starting to piss me off... tends to happen when people put words in my mouth. Show me an instance when I ever put words in yours, and I'll STFU.

As for "The Process"... you bet your ass I loved it. But it was less for the role Analytics played in it. It was for the Consensus decision process at the heart of it. Ring a bell? That the experiment was cut short after year 2 of a committed 5-year period was beyond stupid. Even then I never claimed it was perfect... just a work in progress that showed progress despite being hitched to the worst HC since our resurrection.

My greatest frustration was the number of folks here that never even tried to understand it. Hell, most still refer to Sashi as the decider making picks, breaking ties, etc. I'm no longer sure you understand it since you're labeling the upcoming "Part Deux" simply based upon analytics having a role again.

Anyway... 2 years later here we are again... only without the draft capital we suffered so much to accumulate.

I agree.  We are going to hire Berry and it is almost full circle.  Maybe Berry hires Sashi as a executive assistant...LOL...that will blow up some heads.  Would be fun to watch.

 

I like the hire.  Too many blowhards who don't know squat seem to have all the answers...lol

[BaconHound]

9 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

If anything, DB play and having premium athletes is more important than ever.  Gone are the days of Minnie and Dixon who got by on overly physical play and imposing their will on you.   There was a time a few years ago where I said the same thing and wanted the Browns to build front to back. But getting a good lay of the land on the defenses I love watching they all have something in common  - quality DB's.   And keep in mind, that's my first love.  So it takes a lot to say I feel the value might be diminished, then only to circle back around and realize how wrong I was.   But it is a position where you can "coach up" athletes as well as any. Take NE for example and their run of CB's.

 

The issue isn't just the misses, Tour.  It's whom was selected, some of the head scratching that went with it, and the talent that was passed over in favor of said picks.  Especially given that 2016 draft.  2017 wasn't without it's flops either.  It is incredibly fortunate that Myles was rated as the highest player by more well known 3rd party grades on top of the fact he is a great football player to boot.  If he wasn't so highly regarded with the metrics, how might have that gone? We could very well be talking about our issues with Trubisky at the moment and, I admit hesitantly, Dutch is kind of right about that.   Talent eval between the more "conventional" minded front offices of days past and the more "analytical" one have their shared abysmal failures.   

My concern restated - the pendulum swung one way under Sashi and then the opposite side with the Dorse... only to produce some similar results.   My genuine hope is that the scouting department and our regional scouts have their voices heard by this new front office should they reach out to 3rd party grades in working to form their draft boards while developing their consensus players.  I just want the new faces to avoid the entrenchment and narrow sight that our previous two administrations have shown at times.  (Again, mostly regarding talent acquisition)

You must pull your hair out watching Greedy then 😀

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, BaconHound said:

You must pull your hair out watching Greedy then 😀

I buzz my shit, homie.  I'm simple and classic.  

I only lose my mind when I see a player who isn't capable or willing.  I saw Greedy play physical in the run game at times this year, sticking his nose in down low and making tackles. Something we heard he would all but avoid.  He's physically very capable of playing in the NFL at a starter level and has natural gifts a lot of CB's envy - long arms, naturally good leverage for his height and good speed.      So, no, I didn't get too upset about his season.  Especially considering my incredibly large disdain for Wilks and his defensive philosophy.  

[Dutch Oven]

11 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I agree.  We are going to hire Berry and it is almost full circle.  Maybe Berry hires Sashi as a executive assistant...LOL...that will blow up some heads.  Would be fun to watch.

 

I like the hire.  Too many blowhards who don't know squat seem to have all the answers...lol

Absolute genius take. 

[SdBacker80]

5 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I buzz my shit, homie.  I'm simple and classic.  

I only lose my mind when I see a player who isn't capable or willing.  I saw Greedy play physical in the run game at times this year, sticking his nose in down low and making tackles. Something we heard he would all but avoid.  He's physically very capable of playing in the NFL at a starter level and has natural gifts a lot of CB's envy - long arms, naturally good leverage for his height and good speed.      So, no, I didn't get too upset about his season.  Especially considering my incredibly large disdain for Wilks and his defensive philosophy.  

We got the wrong LSU corner...watch Derek Stingley tomorrow I think he has a year or two before he can declare.  Great ball skills very talented

i was pleasantly surprised with his filling edges and making tackles on a few occasions.  The guy played with no confidence this year- there were plenty of times he was in great position because of some of the traits you mentioned and he was tugging and grabbing. I think he’s going to improve a great deal. 

[ballpeen]

How did we get the wrong one if the other guy wasn't available for the draft?

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

We got the wrong LSU corner...watch Derek Stingley tomorrow I think he has a year or two before he can declare.  Great ball skills very talented

i was pleasantly surprised with his filling edges and making tackles on a few occasions.  The guy played with no confidence this year- there were plenty of times he was in great position because of some of the traits you mentioned and he was tugging and grabbing. I think he’s going to improve a great deal. 

Oh I've already watched a couple games of theirs this year.  Kid is good, but he needs work on his upper body strength and his patience + eye discipline in his back peddle.  He should get there in time with coaching.  But that game vs Florida did make me take note of Jefferson and Pitts for the Gators.   Especially the former, Jefferson abused the kid on a few catches.

[ballpeen]

Go Gators.

[SdBacker80]

4 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

How did we get the wrong one if the other guy wasn't available for the draft?

 Only if we pass him up in the 2022 draft. After we’ve fired Stefanski and we are looking for a Bakers replacement.  Grim I know. 

[ballpeen]

I don't agree, but go LSU.

[Tour2ma]

21 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The issue isn't just the misses, Tour.  It's whom was selected, some of the head scratching that went with it, and the talent that was passed over in favor of said picks.  Especially given that 2016 draft.  2017 wasn't without it's flops either.  It is incredibly fortunate that Myles was rated as the highest player by more well known 3rd party grades on top of the fact he is a great football player to boot.  If he wasn't so highly regarded with the metrics, how might have that gone? We could very well be talking about our issues with Trubisky at the moment and, I admit hesitantly, Dutch is kind of right about that.   Talent eval between the more "conventional" minded front offices of days past and the more "analytical" one have their shared abysmal failures.   

My concern restated - the pendulum swung one way under Sashi and then the opposite side with the Dorse... only to produce some similar results.   My genuine hope is that the scouting department and our regional scouts have their voices heard by this new front office should they reach out to 3rd party grades in working to form their draft boards while developing their consensus players.  I just want the new faces to avoid the entrenchment and narrow sight that our previous two administrations have shown at times.  (Again, mostly regarding talent acquisition)

I get all this, tia... There are many players I've scouted that we passed over who I wanted and have worked out for other teams (Marcus Williams, George Kittle)... and others not so much including some we did pick (Shon Coleman).

I would point out that if metrics said Myles was not the player he was then he would not have been the player he was... if that makes any sense.... and his on field performance would have been altered as well.

Growing a scouting department was always a core objective of the Sashi FO... that was what was going to take the time. It was the alternative to trying to find the next great, super-evaluator GM... a very rare breed. In parallel the analytics would be refined, but they started off as the stronger voice... no doubting that. In time the playing field would be leveled.

This is what I see us aspiring towards once again. For how long is the big question... and that's on Stef now. At least the timetable is in better hands than it was with Hue.

[Tour2ma]

31 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Absolute genius take. 

Gotta be sarcasm minus the pink...

... or else thru the power of quote transference I'm at minimum no longer a dipshit.

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I get all this, tia... There are many players I've scouted that we passed over who I wanted and have worked out for other teams (Marcus Williams, George Kittle)... and others not so much including some we did pick (Shon Coleman).

I would point out that if metrics said Myles was not the player he was then he would not have been the player he was... if that makes any sense.... and his on field performance would have been altered as well.

Growing a scouting department was always a core objective of the Sashi FO... that was what was going to take the time. It was the alternative to trying to find the next great, super-evaluator GM... a very rare breed. In parallel the analytics would be refined, but they started off as the stronger voice... no doubting that. In time the playing field would be leveled.

This is what I see us aspiring towards once again. For how long is the big question... and that's on Stef now. At least the timetable is in better hands than it was with Hue.

I know what you're trying to say, but the opposite would have to be true then as well, no?  If these players were as the grades suggested then drafting would be a science and each would perform as graded transitioning to the NFL. 

This circles back around to the formula itself.  If the grades assigned to these players don't match the tape and production, then how did we arrive at the grades and is there potential flaws within that system of said evaluation?

Ever see No Country For Old Men?   "If the rule that you follow lead you to this, of what use was the rule?"

Scientific method requires constant process evaluation.   I use PFF as the best example, because I don't think they possess the constitution for that type of process evaluation.   That isn't necessarily me saying that everyone should invite doubt on their work.  Only me saying that the best system for anything is one looking for constant improvement and honest self reflection when looking to produce anything of substance.

[Kvoethe]

[Tour2ma]

16 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I know what you're trying to say, but the opposite would have to be true then as well, no? 

First... love No Country... Javier's character was one of the most chillingly understated villains ever... up there with Robert Mitchum in Night of the Hunter.

I think the current level of agreement between metric and traditional evals vary greatly from position to position. The more positions are interdependent, the less reliable the analytics are for them. DE/Edge seems to me to be one of the more closely agreeing

One side comment on PFF... while they grade all of each selected players' games, their eval reports include considerable text on strengths and weaknesses they've observed. Awful lot of traditional scouting in their player summaries.

[jiggins7919]

Wrap up Andrew Berry and let's GO. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

I don't agree, but go LSU.

Clemson will win.

[tiamat63]

19 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

First... love No Country... Javier's character was one of the most chillingly understated villains ever... up there with Robert Mitchum in Night of the Hunter.

I think the current level of agreement between metric and traditional evals vary greatly from position to position. The more positions are interdependent, the less reliable the analytics are for them. DE/Edge seems to me to be one of the more closely agreeing

One side comment on PFF... while they grade all of each selected players' games, their eval reports include considerable text on strengths and weaknesses they've observed. Awful lot of traditional scouting in their player summaries.

Honestly, might be my favorite villain character in any movie ever.  The coin toss scene in the gas station? Legendary and fucking tense.

Agreed on the interdependence of the evaluations re: reliability.    As for PFF, I feel they disregard  a great deal of their traditional scouting should their grades speak to the opposite of what they see in normal film study.  Which makes no god damn sense to me because that would have to mean that scheme, opponent and play design are even further discounted when producing a grade.    Again, I hate to use Corey Coleman as an example but one of their articles at the time even admitted to his poor footwork, incredibly high drop percentage and system friendly play. The massive red flags were not enough for their staff to question their grade and thus overall projection of their draft ranking for him.     

In short - I'm skeptical. 

[ballpeen]

11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Clemson will win.

What do you know?   I agree, they might.    I hope not.   I root SEC all day,  every day.

 

 

Like OSU after every other SEC team.

 

 

Go SEC

[Neo]

Ok, now that's out of the way, is somebody going to start the "Official Browns HC search 2021" thread?

[Dutch Oven]

Dustin Fox tweeted that all potential HC hires had to agree to present game plans weekly to Haslam and DePodesta. 

 

 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

What do you know?   I agree, they might.    I hope not.   I root SEC all day,  every day.

I know nothing, just think that is what will happen. 

 

 

Like OSU after every other SEC team.

It takes that entire conf. to take on OSU.

 

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

12 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Dustin Fox tweeted that all potential HC hires had to agree to present game plans weekly to Haslam and DePodesta. 

 

 

 

One of two things I see this as.  Either ownership and management want to eliminate any future communication issues and instability among the coaching staff by verifying that these gameplans are developed, set and agreed upon by the coaching staff...     - OR-    Tennessee Jerry Jones just kicked into overdrive.  

Either great or a disaster.