Calfox's annual first pre-combine stupid mock draft

[SdBacker80]

2 minutes ago, ATOM said:

so both would help us out 

They could.....

probably the worst case scenario 3 QBs taken, all the OT worthy of Top 10 gone and elite defenders off the board.  
 

I think Tua slides maybe Herbert too. In that case..our potential picks are gone but we get calls from 12-16 to go get one of those guys.  These teams probably don’t want to mortgage their entire future for a bigger move up too 

[ATOM]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

They could.....

probably the worst case scenario 3 QBs taken, all the OT worthy of Top 10 gone and elite defenders off the board.  
 

I think Tua slides maybe Herbert too. In that case..our potential picks are gone but we get calls from 12-16 to go get one of those guys.  These teams probably don’t want to mortgage their entire future for a bigger move up too 

then woo f ing hoo draft tua

[tiamat63]

My comments were more at implying should the Browns pursue Armstead.

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

My comments were more at implying should the Browns pursue Armstead.

Why not?  We can always use more talent.

[calfoxwc]

22 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Depends on where he landed...
Washington? why would Washington sign a guy like Armstead when they have a cheaper arguably more productive option available with Chase Young.  

YEP.

Tiam said "the mock"...

which mock? my mock draft? as in, I didn't draft a IDL til round 5?

 Washington can very well let Armstead go, because he'll command a huge salary with his next team. As in, Washington is drafting second overall, has huge money in all their defensive front line... how can that affect my mock draft? If they tag Armstead, he will not be a happy football player for them for a year. If Washington goes ahead and drafts Chase Young, which would figure nicely - they have a young star DE that will be with them for years. and they need a qb and offensive line help. They could use the cap space to help that. maybe.

Even if Washington were to draft a qb, or even an OT - it wouldn't affect my mock draft.

 

[Tour2ma]

Armstead is with SF... WSH would sign him as an FA and opposite Chase he'd make some sense. They could afford both for at least four years.

If WSH drafted an OT at #2 (doubtful), then it could start an OT run. More likely if they decided to go OT that they would start a biding war for Chase, trade down a few spots and grab their OT.

Not feeling QB for them... not two years in a row.

 

On your mock...

1. Jones... agree can trade down for him unless a run starts early... in which case it'd be a mistake to take him at #10, IMO. If either Wills or Thomas is there, you take them as unlike Jones they are "plug n play" LTs. Jones has talent, but needs work... a lot of work. The OT that'd give me fits considering at 10 is Becton... I've seen boards with him higher than Thomas.

2. Dugger... I like the kid, too... but not this high. Very talented and deep Safety class. No need to reach. This feels to me like the spot to go LB or DT hunting... maybe even interior OL.

[SdBacker80]

On 2/12/2020 at 4:34 AM, tiamat63 said:

My comments were more at implying should the Browns pursue Armstead.

I’m all for that.

You have Chase Young and Derrick Brown as Top 10 front 4 guys.  Any team targeting those two probably won’t touch Armstead.  
 

Redskins have former first rounders Sweat, Kerrigan and Allen.  Adding Young and Armstead doubtful.  But I think Young is headed there for sure. 

[calfoxwc]

8 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Armstead is with SF... WSH would sign him as an FA and opposite Chase he'd make some sense. They could afford both for at least four years.

If WSH drafted an OT at #2 (doubtful), then it could start an OT run. More likely if they decided to go OT that they would start a biding war for Chase, trade down a few spots and grab their OT.

Not feeling QB for them... not two years in a row.

 

On your mock...

1. Jones... agree can trade down for him unless a run starts early... in which case it'd be a mistake to take him at #10, IMO. If either Wills or Thomas is there, you take them as unlike Jones they are "plug n play" LTs. Jones has talent, but needs work... a lot of work. The OT that'd give me fits considering at 10 is Becton... I've seen boards with him higher than Thomas.

2. Dugger... I like the kid, too... but not this high. Very talented and deep Safety class. No need to reach. This feels to me like the spot to go LB or DT hunting... maybe even interior OL.

oops, went too fast - true, my bad. I actually haven't finished my next post - where I ran across a draft profile that really criticized his "mess" of footwork. It compared the Jones situation as not ready to start at LT.

However, then I ran across this terrific article about Greg Robinson at LT - some keen insight !

https://www.theringer.com/2017/6/16/16040560/greg-robinson-los-angeles-rams-detroit-lions-offensive-line-busts-dc63ea1482f6

In that, picking Jones even about 15 might not be the right call after all.

Then I ran across this article - which is really good.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/ny-josh-jones-houston-offensive-line-senior-bowl-20200123-77u6qgwmxncixbsjwpk5peg5g4-story.html

"The 6-7, 310-pound Jones has the size and athleticism made significant strides in his footwork this season to get into the first-round conversation. "

“I just get the job done,” Jones said of his pass protection. “This year I let up four pressures… and a half a sack. I’m dominant at it. I take pride in it. If I give up a pressure, if I’m even close to (giving up) a sack, I’m kicking myself in the butt. It’s just pride. I feel like every O-lineman has that pride.”

" “Everybody can line up and play offensive line,” Jones said. “But it’s a different mindset (to be elite). It’s a battle every single play, every single time you’re to war. You have to be on your Ps and Qs every single time. You can’t slip up. You have to be dominant.” "

**************************************************************************

      So, the Jets might jump ahead of the Browns, to the Jag's spot and get Josh Jones.

that would royally suck, because I almost wanted to take back my pick, now I want to take Jones at ten - the Jets have their eyes on him at 11.

I love this kid.   I really, really like his attitude. He loves the game and is working hard at it.

   LOL. I'm so confused. I'll have to have a talk with Flugels about it to get my mind right.  lol

*************************************************

1. Jones... agree can trade down for him unless a run starts early... in which case it'd be a mistake to take him at #10, IMO. If either Wills or Thomas is there, you take them as unlike Jones they are "plug n play" LTs. Jones has talent, but needs work... a lot of work. The OT that'd give me fits considering at 10 is Becton... I've seen boards with him higher than Thomas. TOUR

******************************************

    I know, I"ve seen Wirfs #1, Becton #1, Wills #1. It's uplifting to know that Jones' footwork has vastly? improved. I don't know. I've read where Thomas doesn't look good in space. And, that Wirfs' feet might be a touch slow for NFL speed rushers. And that Becton is a huge dancing teddy bear - powerful and can still really move. For LT ? I just.... don't know. lol

******************************************

2. Dugger... I like the kid, too... but not this high. Very talented and deep Safety class. No need to reach. This feels to me like the spot to go LB or DT hunting... maybe even interior OL. TOUR

******************************************

      I picked Dugger, rather than later on picking another safety, because he has tweener size to act as a coverage lb like Simmons, a tall bigger safety that can cover most of these TE's that keep coming free over the middle so many times - with all sorts of defenses. Dugger is my "poor man's Simmons", which, I can't get later in the draft after round two. I don't know really, just thinkin, but I appreciate your comments - you are probably right.

    A top LB/DT/..IOL would also be a better idea if you could get your safety in the third round. Thanks !

It is very complicated. lol

[Tour2ma]

Yup... if it were easy then every forum would be full of mocks...

 

Wait...

 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Yup... if it were easy then every forum would be full of mocks...

 

Wait...

 

Be careful with your mocks:

And tell the pleasant Prince this mock of his
Hath turned his balls to gunstones, and his soul
Shall stand sore chargèd for the wasteful vengeance
That shall fly from them—for many a thousand widows
Shall this his mock mock out of their dear husbands,
Mock mothers from their sons, mock castles down; 
. . . 

Henry V

[TexasAg1969]

15 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Henry V

Ah, my favorite Shaky play!

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger ........................"

 

[calfoxwc]

 

 1Josh Jones, OT,Houston

The Browns will trade down a bit, and pick up a second round pick, and a fifth, where they didn't have a fifth. Josh Jones is climbing the draft so high some have him picked at 10, but I think the Browns could trade down about 5 spots and still get their LT. He really answered questions in the Senior Bowl. I keep being locked in on Simmons, but I think he is gone before the Browns pick. I will say this: I confuses me as to whether or not I'd trade, if Wills, OT, were here. Wills is apparently often figured to be the #1 OT in the draft. I'm going to assume that Wills went in the top nine picks, probably to the Giants.

2Kyle Dugger,FS/SS/OLB

No Simmons, but Dugger is a terrific player in his own right. This kid is a ***football player***. Very, very smart football IQ, and a kickass tackler. About ten lbs lighter than Simmons, I'm great with this pick.

4  Adam Trautman,TE, Dayton

So, because it made me happy, I went and traded down, and have a fifth round pick..... Trautman will be, imho, the player we all hoped Njoku would be. He's big, terrific ball catcher, soft hands, and very physical. He'll adapt into a terrific blocker and the Steelers will hate the Browns for getting him earlier than they could.

************************************************************************

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/scouts-speak--senior-bowl-prospects-on-the-rise

Scouts Speak: Senior Bowl Prospects on the Rise

Note: this article is from Jan. 28th, before I posted my mock draft. But I honestly never saw it til this morning.

Three of my picks made it into this article.

Scout No. 1:

"The Dayton kid, [Adam Trautman],” one scout said. “He's a carbon copy of [Dallas] Goedert coming out of South Dakota State but he runs looser and is just as talented as a pass catcher. Blocking needs work, but the effort and technique are easily there and improvable."

Trautman generated a ton of buzz in Mobile, Alabama, this past week. In what was initially seen as a lowly tight end class, there seems to be a lack of front line talent, but plenty of depth starting on Day 2. However, Trautman first began to impress off the field and at the microphone. 

Looking back to his final collegiate campaign, his best game came against Jacksonville where he caught four touchdowns. He also became the new record holder for career catches (110) in program history. There's a wide belief his stock is trending toward being an early-to-mid-second-round selection.

Scout No. 2:

"Josh Jones,” another scout mentioned. “The left tackle from Houston. He's looked great here so far. Didn't know what he'd weigh in at because he looked a little thin on film in his lower half, but 311 is a great weight for him."

https://twitter.com/JReidNFL/status/1220388896690688000?s=20

The offensive tackle play was a bit scarce throughout the Senior Bowl, but one bright spot was Jones. Tabbed as the most athletic blocker coming into the event, he did everything to live up to the hype and more. Jones helped himself enter the first-round discussion. Teams are anxiously awaiting to see how well he tests at the combine in order to see just how athletic he really is. 

On the field, he passed the test with flying colors as he showed light feet, strong hands and balance. Jones showed the functional strength necessary to eventually be counted upon as a blindside protector while stymying rushers consistently.

From Kolton Miller in 2018 to Andre Dillard a year ago, we see teams fall in love with athletic offensive tackles. There are even some instances where franchises will reach for them a round too early because of their upside. Pass protection is an area that's extremely hard for coaches to instill into players, but on the opposite end of the spectrum, it's easier to teach an offensive lineman how to become a consistent run blocker. Teams are now comfortable with reaching on highly talented pass protectors because of how the league has trended towards a pass-heavy approach.

Scout No. 5:

"I didn't get a chance to see him live, but [Kyle] Dugger blew me away with how well put together his body was and then to go out there and perform like that,” a scout said. “That was really, really impressive. He's like Keanu Neal-lite. That's my best comparison for him."

With small-school prospects, it's always interesting to monitor how quickly they adjust to the speed of the game — if they sink or swim. Dugger swam and kept swimming, showing that he belonged despite the increased competition. Playing him primarily on the roof of the defense during the first practice session, most of his success came on the second and third day the closer he was to the line. Dugger quickly became the talk of practice after having an impressive interception during the one-on-one portion of practice. While guarding former Vanderbilt tight end Jared Pinkney, he cut underneath his route in order to haul in the turnover.

While many are still waiting to see how he stacks up at the combine, top-50 chatter has become a realistic possibility for the Division II standout. Dugger showed off his versatility as a free and strong safety as well as a blitzing threat off of the edge and made many teams believers after seeing that his skills translated to his upper-echelon counterparts.

********************************************************************

    I figure I did fairly well with my mock draft. Time will tell. Dugger is raw in a few areas, but I don't see him falling out of the second round. Tour could be right - he could go later....who knows.

Per the article, though, Josh Uche? Was never on my radar in my mock draft. Maybe Oche or Dugger ends up a Cleveland Brown. I hope.

    I picked Josh Jones high, a lot of mocks didn't, but it seems that Jones is really getting even more serious attention - in advance of the combine. We'll see. It seems he may not be there if the Browns traded down very far.

   and, I thought Trautman was way overlooked. Nope. Not even the combine yet, and now they are talking him a second round pick. If that holds true, I don't see us drafting a TE at all. But a FA seems destined, maybe, from the Vikings.

   It seems a terrific list of safeties in FA - two of them from the vikings,... so maybe safety isn't going to be on the Browns' list for the top three rounds.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/01/nfl-free-agency-2020-safeties-to-watch-for-the-browns.html

   

[Tour2ma]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:56 AM, calfoxwc said:

I figure I did fairly well with my mock draft. Time will tell. Dugger is raw in a few areas, but I don't see him falling out of the second round. Tour could be right - he could go later....who knows

Agree... it's a good mock.

My guess is based upon the strength of the Safety class. It's a pretty good one so some good options are going to fall and at least pre-Combine, I think Dugger will. While athletically he's at least the equal of any Safety in the class, he's still raw enough that he may not be plug-n-play.

Just the opposite with the TE group... very weak class that Trautman is rising thru. If he shines at the Combine, then it would not  shock me if he went in R2 and was the first TE off the board.

[Flugel]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:20 AM, Tour2ma said:

Yup... if it were easy then every forum would be full of mocks...

Wait...

It doesn't sound any easier than playing Marco Polo in Boston... 

 

[Canton Mike]

The TE position is the one position on the Browns that concerns me most. We'll address OT & safety. I just hope we can finally land a good, COMPLETE TE...one who blocks, runs good routes, & CATCHES the ball. Obviously, I'm not as sold on Njoku as some others are.

We'll know more in the next 2 or 3 months.

Mike

 

[Flugel]

7 minutes ago, Canton Mike said:

The TE position is the one position on the Browns that concerns me most. We'll address OT & safety. I just hope we can finally land a good, COMPLETE TE...one who blocks, runs good routes, & CATCHES the ball. Obviously, I'm not as sold on Njoku as some others are.

We'll now more in the next 2 or 3 months.

Mike

 

I've been impatient with Njoku too Mike.  Since we still have Seymore Abs - he was trending up in Baker's rookie year at least with the catches component. If I'm going to call out the coaches for Baker's regression - I think I need to do it with others as well.  That guy needs his fanny lit with a blow torch or fire crackers, not to give anyone a creepy visual of Ghoolie starring in 50 Shades of Grey or anything...

[Flugel]

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree... it's a good mock.

My guess is based upon the strength of the Safety class. It's a pretty good one so some good options are going to fall and at least pre-Combine, I think Dugger will. While athletically he's at least the equal of any Safety in the class, he's still raw enough that he may not be plug-n-play.

Just the opposite with the TE group... very weak class that Trautman is rising thru. If he shines at the Combine, then it would not  shock me if he went in R2 and was the first TE off the board.

It seems like the Redskins have been in Queer Eyes for Alabama guys mode for their front 7 in recent years.  They drafted Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne in the 1st rounds of 2017 and 2018.  They also acquired ILB Reuben Foster last year if he ever remembers he's just as good at football as he is at getting into trouble.   

Washington also drafted OLB/Edge Rusher Montez Sweat from Miss State in round 1 last year. Even though he's getting up there in years - they also still have a productive Ryan Kerrigan with a cap hit reflecting such reliability for them over the years. Lost in translation is that's 3 consecutive years of first round guys (with 2 of them at DE/OLB).  If they have to go right back to front 7 guys - they might want to re-evaluate who the Hell is spending all these picks in just 1 area of a team that that hasn't been making the climb into playoff contention.

It seems to me like the War of the Roses divorce Washington has had with their worn and torn LT Trent Williams (now entering season #12) should have them looking first and foremost at LT.  Considering they drafted a QB in the 1st round last year, they might want to pursue a protection of this investment at LT with the pick of the litter a #2 overall pick gift wraps for them.  While Chase Young is a great idea for most teams near the top of round 1 - Wundumson here thinks the Redskins would only Chase their tail if they blow off LT. 

I'm an Ohio State fan but Chase Young really cooled off during the BIG Games at the end with 0 for his final 3 (making people wonder if Michigan put somewhat of a truth serum on film for others to follow).. In saying such a thing - here you go: 0 sacks vrs Michigan followed by 0 sacks vrs Wisconsin (Big 10 Championship) followed by 0 sacks vrs Clemson.  In 2018, 0 sacks vrs Michigan (and 0 sacks vrs 7 opponents overall) while teams that rarely equip the NFL with starting Tackles like Maryland, Northwestern and Rutgers all gave him 2 sacks apiece. I think he's a great prospect; but he's not Nick Bosa in terms of brute strength and ideal leverage (that gets up under OTs and removes their legs repeatedly perpetuating the dominance he has).  I don't see this to the same extent in Chase Young if I'm being honest here.  I see a great prospect that needs more than me rooting for Ohio State to justify #2 overall on him here. I've been wrong before though...

[tiamat63]

I'll leave this here and go about my day.

[Flugel]

20 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I'll leave this here and go about my day.

1 patty cake session from Chase Young doesn't change my opinion that he is not the ideal #2 overall pick for the Washington Redskins in lieu of the best LT right now.  I'm not going to re-type what I already wrote.  If he played for Michigan - this wouldn't even be a debate.

Anyway, as we see in the picture #37 will give a quick chip (if necessary) prior to heading out to the flats for his QB.  Meanwhile #76 at LG looks like his left foot is getting tangled up with the LT's foot to the extent he's about to trip and fall down.  This is a double team set up for either side of Tackle that Young is only going to play patty cake with.  Keep in mind what the picture is showing you. Center blocking NT, RG locked up on DT and RT locked up edge rusher.  Young looks like the only defender lined up left of Center.

When I watch guys like Reggie White, Michael Strahan, Nick Bosa and JJ Watt at the NFL level - they all have shown they could collapse an entire side of a protection, which ain't happening in your picture.  These guys all had a power and leverage that made them more than a beat someone with speed only type.  White was 320 lbs and rumored to run 4.7 forties back when that was unheard of to go with his unparalleled strength and power. All of them have faced what you see in the picture above and whipped it's asss with a blend of superior leverage, ideal power/strength and quicks....

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, Flugel said:

1 patty cake session from Chase Young doesn't change my opinion that he is not the ideal #2 overall pick for the Washington Redskins in lieu of the best LT right now.  I'm not going to re-type what I already wrote.  If he played for Michigan - this wouldn't even be a debate.

Anyway, as we see in the picture #37 will give a quick chip (if necessary) prior to heading out to the flats for his QB.  Meanwhile #76 at LG looks like his left foot is getting tangled up with the LT's foot to the extent he's about to trip and fall down.  This is a double team set up for either side of Tackle that Young is only going to play patty cake with.  Keep in mind what the picture is showing you. Center blocking NT, RG locked up on DT and RT locked up edge rusher.  Young looks like the only defender lined up left of Center.

When I watch guys like Reggie White, Michael Strahan, Nick Bosa and JJ Watt at the NFL level - they all have shown they could collapse an entire side of a protection, which ain't happening in your picture.  These guys all had a power and leverage that made them more than a beat someone with speed only type.  White was 320 lbs and rumored to run 4.7 forties back when that was unheard of to go with his unparalleled strength and power. All of them have faced what you see in the picture above and whipped it's asss with a blend of superior leverage, ideal power/strength and quicks....

JJ ain't 'collapsing" a triple team either.  I know, I've seen it thrown his way and I'm sure a few of our resident Texan-living fans here have as well.

Either way, he's BPA for the skins BUT - I do agree with you, they would be much better suited to address their porous Oline.  Especially given their investment into a promising young Haskins.

[Flugel]

1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

JJ ain't 'collapsing" a triple team either.  I know, I've seen it thrown his way and I'm sure a few of our resident Texan-living fans here have as well.

Either way, he's BPA for the skins BUT - I do agree with you, they would be much better suited to address their porous Oline.  Especially given their investment into a promising young Haskins.

There is no triple team in your picture. It's a pass protection scheme where there's only 1 pass rusher (Chase) pictured to the left of Center.  In fact, can you even see any other defenders on that side?  If so, your buddy Flugel needs new contact lenses.  Considering it's only a 3 step drop from QB - my guess is the WB/FB in formation is more to bait/leverage Young toward the OG so the QB has an additional option to pass to the WB in uncontested space if he's not comfortable throwing to the Receiver running over the middle in the picture.

It's not a triple team when only 1 blocker engages a DL with a wing-back lined up to the left/outside and behind the LT (still 1 yard behind the LT's left foot in the picture) meaning the chip isn't even required if Young chooses the inside path.  The LG is actually planting his left forearm into the back of his teammate playing LT while I see his left foot right behind the LT's right foot.  If I had to guess, this isn't a cup protection seeing where the RG and RT are in the picture.  It looks more like a Reach (on the right side of Center) and Hinge (on the left side) pass pro.  If 3 guys ever block 1 guy at once, someone needs an id ten t form which looks like this if we use all caps and a digit.  ID10T. Again, only the LT has engaged Young in your picture so we're going to disagree about a triple team.

I can assure you JJ Watt rarely ever gets stopped by RBs trying to chip him.  He's also beaten a ton of double teams from Guard-Tackle tandems upfront prior to running right through RBs on the way to countless sacks/QB hurries.  Like I already showed, the last 3 opponents of Young's college career combined to hold him to 0 sacks.  The year before, 7 opponents were able to do this.  I don't see the next Reggie White or Bruce Smith here.  All that being the case, coupled with Washington's current situation I already covered - the pick of the litter at LT is Washington's BPA at #2.  

 

[The Gipper]

If it looks like a triple team, and walks like a triple team, and quacks like a triple team.....well....

[Tour2ma]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

There is no triple team in your picture.

Scooby Doo says, "Rhere's rot?"

From his look and lean the Badger's LG clearly has only one assignment here... be ready for any inside move from Chase. Ditto the RB to the outside. Plus while Biadesz is on great shape in his assignment, the same can't be said for either on the right side... although I've no idea what's going on at RG (spin move?).

Add it up and it says triple team to me...

That said...

I see WSH trading down. Both MIA and OAK... errr... LV have multiple 1sts to offer and interest in a QB... an interest they share with CAR and LAC. WSH can trade down and still get a quality OT and at least one more stater.

[tiamat63]

19 minutes ago, Flugel said:

There is no triple team in your picture. It's a pass protection scheme where there's only 1 pass rusher (Chase) pictured to the left of Center.  In fact, can you even see any other defenders on that side?  If so, your buddy Flugel needs new contact lenses.  Considering it's only a 3 step drop from QB - my guess is the WB/FB in formation is more to bait/leverage Young toward the OG so the QB has an additional option to pass to the WB in uncontested space if he's not comfortable throwing to the Receiver running over the middle in the picture.

It's not a triple team when only 1 blocker engages a DL with a wing-back lined up to the left/outside and behind the LT (still 1 yard behind the LT's left foot in the picture) meaning the chip isn't even required if Young chooses the inside path.  The LG is actually planting his left forearm into the back of his teammate playing LT while I see his left foot right behind the LT's right foot.  If I had to guess, this isn't a cup protection seeing where the RG and RT are in the picture.  It looks more like a Reach (on the right side of Center) and Hinge (on the left side) pass pro.  If 3 guys ever block 1 guy at once, someone needs an id ten t form which looks like this if we use all caps and a digit.  ID10T. Again, only the LT has engaged Young in your picture so we're going to disagree about a triple team.

I can assure you JJ Watt rarely ever gets stopped by RBs trying to chip him.  He's also beaten a ton of double teams from Guard-Tackle tandems upfront prior to running right through RBs on the way to countless sacks/QB hurries.  Like I already showed, the last 3 opponents of Young's college career combined to hold him to 0 sacks.  The year before, 7 opponents were able to do this.  I don't see the next Reggie White or Bruce Smith here.  All that being the case, coupled with Washington's current situation I already covered - the pick of the litter at LT is Washington's BPA at #2.  

 

 

No, it's very much a triple team.  The nose was shaded 1i pre-snap and the tackle oversteps to prevent Chase from taking the edge easily... you know, kind of like what he did to the tune of 4 sacks against them just 6 games prior.  That is mostly because tOSU runs an over front (3 tech to the strength)  The guard isn't and never even so much looked for any additional pressure up the middle or some type of delay and the FB is on a chip and release.   Depends on call vs pressure usually.  Wisky is a team that likes to keep their backs in for pass pro even against dogs go.  

Hell, I was feeling great and did some leg work for you.  Check out the clip below and the time stamps.

 

 

@ 10 seconds

- 3 step drop - immediate double team

@ 28 seconds

- 3/5 step drop - guard shades his way, tackle almost false starts just to get into his drop too hurried to not get beat to the edge.  Generates the pressure that leads to an errant throw.

@ 55 seconds 

- play action with a grip and rip sight adjustment  3 step if not there.  singled up again on quick drops.

@ 1:10 

- 5 step drop, balls gone at the top of drop. possible throw away?  singled up

@ 1:27

- singled on the edge from a 2 pt wins inside with power and forces the pressure  

@ 2:10 

- speed and power to the inside but Wisky has a little HB screen setup so everyone is released.  Singled up for the sake of scheme again.

@ 2:23

- 3 step drop, ball out offense.  Taking no chances on 3rd down with honest 5 and 7 step drops like before.

@ 2:28

- Designed rollout away from Chase.   Please note where the eyes of the backside guard and tackle are.

@ 2:57

- 4th down and would you notice they ran that jet away from Chase...?

@ 3:07  

- misdirection sweep ran towards Young's side.  He sniffs it out, takes away the perimeter and forces the ball carrier inside to awaiting pursuit.

@ 3:19

- 3 step drop to the far hash. Guard can't help inside because he's dealing with pressure from LB.  Check out where his eyes went first though and he was almost fucked picking up the backer.

@ 3:25

- TE chip as Weakside Edge. Designed T-E stunt that Cone does a good job getting out of.  Another double being thrown his way.

@ 4:19

- No TE chip, 3 step drop to the boundary slant. 

1/3 of the way in you'll see a theme. Ball out of hand offense. Chase is doubled almost always and when he isn't there have been zero throws 
so far off a deeper drop.    No 7 step shots and even the 5 step drops are shady.

@ 4:44

- Singled up again. 3 step drop. Beats the tackle around the edge and almost gets the ball but it leaves Cone's hand literally a half second before
his arm arrives and makes contact with the QB's shoulder.   Either way, that's a pressure registered.

@ 5:40  

- another sweep ran to the boundary.  AWAY from Young.  

@ 5:51

- playing as a 'closed' end.  Please note where the eyes of the backside tackle and guard are, how their stance and heads are.  Hell, WATCH THE CENTER.
He literally lets Devon Hamilton completely go to the front side guard in favor of getting ready for an inside move from Young.

 

   I was going to type out the entire film but at this point I would hope you would see what I'm attempting to convey.   Wisconsin altered their entire offensive gameplan to deal with Chase and Chase Young only.   They weren't worried about throwing at a pair of 1st round corners, they just didn't want to give up 4 sacks and a handful of TFL's to a single player again.  Even a good portion of those split zones they ran didn't go his way.    The kid is a force, it's that simple.  

  But to essentially call what you see here pattycake is absurd.  He didn't have to register a sack to make a difference. He drew numbers that allowed a great deal of 1 on 1 blocking for the rest of the line.   They just weren't ready to capitalize on it being that, well, they're not all #2 overall picks.   Young was routinely doubled and on rare occasion, got a late eyed triple team thrown his way combined with forcing the Badgers to go away from what they love - play action, deeper drops and forcing the ball vertically setup by their running game.

 That is the respect paid when you are that great of a player.  

 

To cap this off,  I still rather agree with you.  I think the Skins' might be better off going with a trade down or addressing their incredibly porous Oline.   The defense is solid enough, they need some offensive firepower to backup their young QB and WR combo.

 

 

[Flugel]

18 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Scooby Doo says, "Rhere's rot?"

From his look and lean the Badger's LG clearly has only one assignment here... be ready for any inside move from Chase. Ditto the RB to the outside. Plus while Biadesz is on great shape in his assignment, the same can't be said for either on the right side... although I've no idea what's going on at RG (spin move?).

Add it up and it says triple team to me...

 

Thanks for your insights so I'll reply to you and Tia together here.  What you said above is exactly what I already said. If he goes inside - there's a double team with the LG (and that WB/RB heads off to the flat or short hook zone).  If he goes outside, there's a chip from the WB/RB.  So far, we're on the same page...

2 ifs don't add up to a triple team though - they make a pass pro scheme aimed at protecting areas/gaps/QB 1-2 yards behind the LOS with the QB in a 3 step drop/quick throw.  Consequently, there's only 1 Badger pictured having immediate contact with Young and it sure looks like Young is the one initiating that contact. 

If this was a true double team, the Inside Guy is supposed to be the post man (LG) and the outside guy (LT) is the drive man; but it's a PASS play - so we see 3 guys hinging off the blindside of QB 1-2 yards behind the line of scrimmage in a pass pro...  The 1st steps of LG and Wing back are both toward the LT sealing off area/space in between.  What we don't know is if a 2nd or 3rd blocker is ever even engaged in contact.  Let's not make this sound like all 3 guys flew off the ball as a designated point of attack to try to remove and pulverize Young in a running game. Above all, 3 step drops are quick passes so we're looking at a pass pro scheme instead of 3 guys blocking Young. I'd be interested in seeing the rest of that play; because there's some interesting stuff taking place with the right foot of LT and left foot of LG. 

I made a point that Young didn't have any sacks in his last 3 games (Michigan, Wisconsin in the Big 10 Championship, and Clemson) and there were 7 games in 2018 where he didn't have any.  On a board full of Ohio State fans (including myself), my questioning if Young deserves to be the #2 overall pick in this draft (especially for the Redskins for the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread) was going to be challenged and unpopular. I like your point about about Washington trading down. 

[Flugel]

14 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 

@ 10 seconds

- 3 step drop - immediate double team

    The kid is a force, it's that simple.  

  But to essentially call what you see here pattycake is absurd.  He didn't have to register a sack to make a difference. He drew numbers that allowed a great deal of 1 on 1 blocking for the rest of the line.   They just weren't ready to capitalize on it being that, well, they're not all #2 overall picks.   Young was routinely doubled and on rare occasion, got a late eyed triple team thrown his way combined with forcing the Badgers to go away from what they love - play action, deeper drops and forcing the ball vertically setup by their running game.

 That is the respect paid when you are that great of a player. 

To cap this off,  I still rather agree with you.  I think the Skins' might be better off going with a trade down or addressing their incredibly porous Oline.   The defense is solid enough, they need some offensive firepower to backup their young QB and WR combo.

 

Thanks Tia!   I agree teams had to game plan for him and he is a force.  No argument.  You did a really good job explaining your pov and backing it with video here so I'll forgive that picture you shared...

Where I will argue is how great I see him being in at the next level, which takes us back to the context of my post before you replied to. He's great at this level but I'll stop shy of putting up at the #2 overall even if he's great at the Underwear Olympics this week.  For example, in the 1st 2 minutes of your video, Wisconsin wasn't afraid to run at him or his side of the field at all.  And when they did so they did it with success without needing double teams.  Ohio State lined him up on both sides of the formation, so yes there was a WB/FB lined up to help with pass pro when he took an outside charge on the RT in the play you mentioned at 10 sec.

I'm not nearly as confident as you are that he will be the same type of force Nick Bosa is against the run at the next level to justify the #2 overall slot/talent.  I think his pass rush skills make him deserving of an elite round 1 spot but not up as high as #2 IMO.  That said, he's going to have to get used to getting chipped and seeing those 3 step drop quickie passes that keep some QBs hassle-free at the next level. The question I have is how well does he defend the run especially when it comes right at him.  We shall see...

[Flugel]

23 hours ago, The Gipper said:

If it looks like a triple team, and walks like a triple team, and quacks like a triple team.....well....

Thanks for the AFLAC commercial. 

[tiamat63]

8 hours ago, Flugel said:

Thanks Tia!   I agree teams had to game plan for him and he is a force.  No argument.  You did a really good job explaining your pov and backing it with video here so I'll forgive that picture you shared...

Where I will argue is how great I see him being in at the next level, which takes us back to the context of my post before you replied to. He's great at this level but I'll stop shy of putting up at the #2 overall even if he's great at the Underwear Olympics this week.  For example, in the 1st 2 minutes of your video, Wisconsin wasn't afraid to run at him or his side of the field at all.  And when they did so they did it with success without needing double teams.  Ohio State lined him up on both sides of the formation, so yes there was a WB/FB lined up to help with pass pro when he took an outside charge on the RT in the play you mentioned at 10 sec.

I'm not nearly as confident as you are that he will be the same type of force Nick Bosa is against the run at the next level to justify the #2 overall slot/talent.  I think his pass rush skills make him deserving of an elite round 1 spot but not up as high as #2 IMO.  That said, he's going to have to get used to getting chipped and seeing those 3 step drop quickie passes that keep some QBs hassle-free at the next level. The question I have is how well does he defend the run especially when it comes right at him.  We shall see...

 

I don't necessarily disagree with his defense of the run vs someone like Nick.    Baby Bosa was/is great, much like Joey.  Not so much because they're the "elite" athletes, but more to do with their technical prowess, strength, hand/feet/eye sync and shear motor.    Both of them don't have the first step and length of Chase and they never will.    So to that end you are correct.  But they hold up better against the run for their own very distinct reasons that Chase doesn't necessarily have or has developed at this point.   

As for Wisconsin running at him.... sure.  They went his way on a few split zones and flashed a TE at him as well.  Mostly because he's the weakside edge in an over front.  He's on the field to be your primary pass rusher and the very nature of such a system and his alignment is designed to take advantage of speed.  Speed to have the 3tech at strength, speed to shut down perimeter runs to that side, and speed off the backside edge that will frustrate pass pro and generally calls for additional attention.    But open side runs do work when your backers don't fill and run force as consistently as they should.  As a result, Chase can be put in some questionable spots or worse, he can put himself in a questionable spot by getting upfield too fast.   It would do him well to work on keeping blockers at length, then stacking to shed.  Which he did a few times, but not enough that I nor you would consider dominant in that aspect.

It's an admitted part of his game he needs to work on and coaches will make sure he does just that at the NFL.   But he'll be drafted so high for one reason only - he's a screamer off the edge and those will always be at a premium in the NFL.

[Dutch Oven]

8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

It's an admitted part of his game he needs to work on and coaches will make sure he does just that at the NFL.   But he'll be drafted so high for one reason only - he's a screamer off the edge and those will always be at a premium in the NFL.

How does Chase Young compare to Myles Garrett when he was entering the draft? 

[SdBacker80]

Chase Young was singled up for half a season and teams paid dearly. In that time he was singled up most of those teams made a conscious effort to do three step drop ball out.  The second half he was doubled and tripled...pockets were rolling away...again ball out quickly.   Teams got an idea for a second to double him and run right at him, which he either made the play or stood the tackle up and the back is going East and west right away.  Your best containment against him was a 3 and 10 type give up draw where he gets caught getting up field on a pass rush to get the QB.  
 

Having religiously watched OSU for the past 20-25 years we haven’t had a defender demand that kind of respect EVER. Not Joey...Not Nick...maybe Big Daddy Wilkinson a little in the 90s.  

Chase Young should be the first overall pick.  The Bengals will probably go QB if they stay and I can’t fault them.  But the Redskins are outta of their dang minds if they take one of these “good” tackle prospects ahead of Young.