The GOAT is Leaving New England... And Going to Tampa

[Bob806]

On 3/17/2020 at 12:56 PM, BrownsFan4Evr said:

I don't know why, but I just have never liked the guy.

The fact that he owned the Steelers in the playoffs really helped me to like him.

One day ( I hope) the Browns will own the Steelers again, and win the dam AFC North consistently. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

Just because you are old doesn't mean you need to be misinformed... and it doesn't give you final say on what is 

No.  The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.

Did your Michifuck education learn you that  10 is more than 9;  and that 7 is more than 6.  And that 10 is half of 20?

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?

 

Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done? 

On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR. 

JIm Brown was bigger  Than Adrian Peterson:   6'2  232 compared to 6'1"  220.  and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field.  And fast?  They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then. 

And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like  Odell can?  (better question:  can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not).   But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.

But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s:   As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty.  Why?  Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field.  There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule.  They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes.   Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor. 

Again, ask the question:  what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime?  As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them. 

[The Gipper]

40 minutes ago, Icecube said:

OLmen were 220 lbs in Brown's days. 

So were DL....so it evened out. 

[MLD Woody]

29 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

No.  The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.

Did your Michifuck education learn you that  10 is more than 9;  and that 7 is more than 6.  And that 10 is half of 20?

Oh please. Let's not bring that subject into it when you've been objectively incorrect on it before.

Hell, you didn't even know what Sam, Will and Mike LBs were and now you're proclaiming your great football knowledge? 

Gimme a break

[MLD Woody]

21 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

JIm Brown was bigger  Than Adrian Peterson:   6'2  232 compared to 6'1"  220.  and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field.  And fast?  They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then. 

And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like  Odell can?  (better question:  can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not).   But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.

But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s:   As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty.  Why?  Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field.  There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule.  They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes.   Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor. 

Again, ask the question:  what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime?  As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them. 

Do you think the guys Brown was dragging around were the same size, strength and speed as the guys AP is dragging around?

Brown was an absolute physical freak for his time. No doubt. But he's much more in line with players we're seeing today. 

[MLD Woody]

21 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

So were DL....so it evened out. 

Right.... which hurts your Brown argument

[Tour2ma]

We're all wrong.... Gipper's right... even Gipper says so... incessantly...

Matters not that it's a debate of opinions... which Gipper labeled Gorka's articles as being.... because Gipper's opinions are fact... cause math.... or at least numbers...

Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too.

 

It was easier for Otto because there were fewer teams and Paul Brown only coached one of those teams.

There... I said it.... and if we still had Signatures, then I'd put it in my Sig.

 

Now for the "fewer teams" numbers...

• In their first three, AAFC seasons there were only seven other teams divided into two, four-team divisions. In the league's 4th and last season there were six others.
• Each of the first three, regular seasons were 14 games long. The 4th was 12 games long.
• In the AAFC's first two seasons there was a one-game playoff. In the 3rd there were two playoff games because two teams in the Division opposite the Browns finished tied for first and had to playoff for the right to lose to the Browns, who had a Bye week. In the 4th and last there were 3 playoff games, two semi's and the Championship.
• The NFL's regulation seasons were 12 games long. There were one-game playoffs.

Now some Paul Brown numbers...

• During Graham's 10-yr career, spanning '46 thru '55,  Paul's Defense ranked first in the league (AAFC or NFL) in fewest points allowed 8 times. The other two years it ranked 2nd. Both of the latter were NFL seasons
• By contrast Paul's Otto-led Offense ranked 1st in points scored three times; 2nd three times; 3rd twice; and 4th twice. All four times we ranked 3rd or lower were NFL seasons.
• For those who prefer total yards as the measure of an Offense: 1st thrice; 2nd once; 3rd twice; 4th once; 5th once; 6th once; and 8th once. The 8th place season was the only one that Motley did not lead the team in rushing during his Browns' career.

Miscellany...

• Excepting his final season Otto's receivers were Dante Lavelli and Max Speedie... both are in the HOF.
• For eight of his ten seasons Otto's FB was HOF'er, Marion Motley.
• For his final eight seasons Otto's HB was 2-time, All-Pro Dub Jones... the player that lead the team in rushing the season that Motley did not. Jones was a very good receiving HB.
• Four of Otto's six highest Passer Rating seasons were in the AAFC and those four included his two best seasons.

Bottom line...

Browns were far and away the class of an inferior league in it's AAFC days. Throughout Otto's career the most consistent facet of the team was it's high-performing Defense. Throughout his HOF career Otto was surrounded by HOF skill players and the team was coached by a HOF coach.

Otto was great... no doubt about it... and there were things that worked against him, e.g., a less than pass-friendly ball and slower travel, but the game was much simpler and he faced defenses that were far less sophisticated than what we see.

So best of his era? Sure...

GOAT? Nope... for me that man ison his way to Tampa.

 

I can hardly wait to see how wrong my opinion is...

[Gorka]

How many times has Brady sent the Steelers home in the playoffs? 3? 4?

That is what I like mostly about the man.

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Oh please. Let's not bring that subject into it when you've been objectively incorrect on it before.

Hell, you didn't even know what Sam, Will and Mike LBs were and now you're proclaiming your great football knowledge? 

Gimme a break

So, the answer is that Michigan didn't teach you any math. 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Do you think the guys Brown was dragging around were the same size, strength and speed as the guys AP is dragging around?

Brown was an absolute physical freak for his time. No doubt. But he's much more in line with players we're seeing today. 

Brown would have drug around the same guys that AP was dragging around better than AP did.  

And FYI, no, he really was not a physical freak compared to some other runners of his day:

Marion Motley was  6'1 238.

Jim Taylor....a bit smaller  6' 1" 220  (same as AP)  (the only guy to lead the NFL in rushing besides JB when JB was active)

Cookie Gilchrist  6'3"  251...was leading the AFL in rushing when JB was leading NFL.  

Today's LBs and DBs are no bigger than DBs and LBs back in the day.  

The only players that are truly bigger are the OL and DL....who, yes, have put on more weight. 

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

We're all wrong.... Gipper's right... even Gipper says so... incessantly...

Matters not that it's a debate of opinions... which Gipper labeled Gorka's articles as being.... because Gipper's opinions are fact... cause math.... or at least numbers...

Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too.

 

It was easier for Otto because there were fewer teams and Paul Brown only coached one of those teams.

There... I said it.... and if we still had Signatures, then I'd put it in my Sig.

 

Now for the "fewer teams" numbers...

• In their first three, AAFC seasons there were only seven other teams divided into two, four-team divisions. In the league's 4th and last season there were six others.
• Each of the first three, regular seasons were 14 games long. The 4th was 12 games long.
• In the AAFC's first two seasons there was a one-game playoff. In the 3rd there were two playoff games because two teams in the Division opposite the Browns finished tied for first and had to playoff for the right to lose to the Browns, who had a Bye week. In the 4th and last there were 3 playoff games, two semi's and the Championship.
• The NFL's regulation seasons were 12 games long. There were one-game playoffs.

Now some Paul Brown numbers...

• During Graham's 10-yr career, spanning '46 thru '55,  Paul's Defense ranked first in the league (AAFC or NFL) in fewest points allowed 8 times. The other two years it ranked 2nd. Both of the latter were NFL seasons
• By contrast Paul's Otto-led Offense ranked 1st in points scored three times; 2nd three times; 3rd twice; and 4th twice. All four times we ranked 3rd or lower were NFL seasons.
• For those who prefer total yards as the measure of an Offense: 1st thrice; 2nd once; 3rd twice; 4th once; 5th once; 6th once; and 8th once. The 8th place season was the only one that Motley did not lead the team in rushing during his Browns' career.

Miscellany...

• Excepting his final season Otto's receivers were Dante Lavelli and Max Speedie... both are in the HOF.
• For eight of his ten seasons Otto's FB was HOF'er, Marion Motley.
• For his final eight seasons Otto's HB was 2-time, All-Pro Dub Jones... the player that lead the team in rushing the season that Motley did not. Jones was a very good receiving HB.
• Four of Otto's six highest Passer Rating seasons were in the AAFC and those four included his two best seasons.

Bottom line...

Browns were far and away the class of an inferior league in it's AAFC days. Throughout Otto's career the most consistent facet of the team was it's high-performing Defense. Throughout his HOF career Otto was surrounded by HOF skill players and the team was coached by a HOF coach.

Otto was great... no doubt about it... and there were things that worked against him, e.g., a less than pass-friendly ball and slower travel, but the game was much simpler and he faced defenses that were far less sophisticated than what we see.

So best of his era? Sure...

GOAT? Nope... for me that man ison his way to Tampa.

 

I can hardly wait to see how wrong my opinion is...

AGain.....it is a  matter of recency bias that to your mind makes your opinion correct.  Which means that you are not necessarily wrong, but you cannot by any objective measure prove you are right.   The only objective measure is the record, and Otto wins there....in my opinion.  

And again, as was said, it is merely a matter of guys playing in different eras. 

Brady the Goat of his era.   Unitas Goat of his era.  Montana Goat of  his era.  Otto Goat of his era.    So, arguably any of those could be argued to be the Goat.  

Again, if it was so easy for Otto, and the Browns to  go to those 10 in a row Championship games, then why has no team at any other time in history, before, during or after Otto's time  ever gone to more than 4 in a row, .    (and only one team did that:  Bills, losing all 4).

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Right.... which hurts your Brown argument

No.   It just shows that the OL and DL are bigger.  If JB were playing today, the blockers ahead of him would be  220 pounds...they would be as big as today's blockers are.  Which means that that aspect of the game would be neutralized. 

[WarriorsRpussies]

5 hours ago, Icecube said:

No, it's not. China has already reversed the course. Tampa will be an easier ride than China.

 

And the Chinese put the entire nation on military lock-down. You have younger people running around thinking they are invincible or don't care, surrounded by old folk. Recipe for disaster. With that said I doubt it's around by training camp so I was off cusp. With that said I wouldn't be physical looking at buy a house down there till then.

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

AGain.....it is a  matter of recency bias that to your mind makes your opinion correct.  Which means that you are not necessarily wrong, but you cannot by any objective measure prove you are right.   The only objective measure is the record, and Otto wins there....in my opinion.  

And again, as was said, it is merely a matter of guys playing in different eras. 

Brady the Goat of his era.   Unitas Goat of his era.  Montana Goat of  his era.  Otto Goat of his era.    So, arguably any of those could be argued to be the Goat.  

Again, if it was so easy for Otto, and the Browns to  go to those 10 in a row Championship games, then why has no team at any other time in history, before, during or after Otto's time  ever gone to more than 4 in a row, .    (and only one team did that:  Bills, losing all 4).

A difference of opinion? Well.... that shut me up.

And we can both live with that...

 

[MLD Woody]

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too

 

Ah, I knew there was a reason we were getting along. 

[The Gipper]

36 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

 

Ah, I knew there was a reason we were getting along. 

Sheldon Cooper wannabe?

[TexasAg1969]

8 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

A difference of opinion? Well.... that shut me up.

And we can both live with that...

 

Awwwwwwwwww.😻😻

[Gorka]

14 hours ago, The Gipper said:

AGain.....it is a  matter of recency bias that to your mind makes your opinion correct.  Which means that you are not necessarily wrong, but you cannot by any objective measure prove you are right.   The only objective measure is the record, and Otto wins there....in my opinion.  

And again, as was said, it is merely a matter of guys playing in different eras. 

Brady the Goat of his era.   Unitas Goat of his era.  Montana Goat of  his era.  Otto Goat of his era.    So, arguably any of those could be argued to be the Goat.  

Again, if it was so easy for Otto, and the Browns to  go to those 10 in a row Championship games, then why has no team at any other time in history, before, during or after Otto's time  ever gone to more than 4 in a row, .    (and only one team did that:  Bills, losing all 4).

No, for the simple fact that Greatest Of All Time means just that, OF ALL TME.  To say "greatest of all time of his era" would be nonsensical, oxymoronish. However, to say "greatest from his era" would obviously make perfect sense.

Cant quite come up with an acronym using "era"...so lets go with GOHT,  pronounced the same as GOAT, except it stands for Greatest Of His Time.

"Recency bias" is a factor for me, not because of recent memory, but because the more recent the player, the more bigger, stronger, and faster he his.

 

[Gorka]

Jim Brown in my opinion was the GOHT, not the GOAT. In his prime he would be a starter today but definitely not a HOF'er.

If I could start a team and select players from any era in their prime, JB wouldn't make the cut because of the era he played in...no more than Jim Thorpe would be because of the era he played in.

Players like Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Earl Campbell, Adrian Peterson, even our own Nick Chubb and a host of others playing today...them be the ones I'd pick.

 

[Gorka]

Hey Gipper,  I'm almost positive this team, The Akron Pros,  could not compete with...

...this team,  the 1933 NFL Champs Bears, who could not compete with...

...this team, the 64 Browns, who could not compete with...

...this team, the 78 Steelers, who could not compete with ….

this team, the 2017 Browns.

 

But that's just my opinion.lol

I bet there wasn't a player on that Steeler team over 275 lbs.

 

 

 

 

[TexasAg1969]

49 minutes ago, Gorka said:

Jim Brown in my opinion was the GOHT, not the GOAT. In his prime he would be a starter today but definitely not a HOF'er.

If I could start a team and select players from any era in their prime, JB wouldn't make the cut because of the era he played in...no more than Jim Thorpe would be because of the era he played in.

Players like Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Earl Campbell, Adrian Peterson, even our own Nick Chubb and a host of others playing today...them be the ones I'd pick.

JB was as fast as many of the fastest today and as powerful as Earl, so you'd be making a big mistake. You know, kinda like the Browns not taking Derrick Henry. 🤣

Now if I knew he would remain healthy, I would draft the 4.12 40 times Bo Jackson, greatest back I ever saw in person.

 

[Gorka]

16 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

JB was as fast as many of the fastest today and as powerful as Earl, so you'd be making a big mistake. You know, kinda like the Browns not taking Derrick Henry. 🤣

Now if I knew he would remain healthy, I would draft the 4.12 40 times Bo Jackson, greatest back I ever saw in person.

 

Bo Jackson, now there's another one.

Yeah I saw films of JB running over guys his size and smaller. But don't you think that if either Earl Campbell for his power or Barry Sanders with his speed and elusiveness would crush JB's records if they played back then? I do.

Conversely, I just don't see JB performing at such a high level in todays NFL.

Fuck, Barry Sanders would have so many of those slow white guys juked out of their jock straps it wouldn't be funny.

[D Bone]

Mike Tyson was also the GOAT....

 

 

 

..... that should keep him busy. 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Gorka said:

No, for the simple fact that Greatest Of All Time means just that, OF ALL TME.  To say "greatest of all time of his era" would be nonsensical, oxymoronish. However, to say "greatest from his era" would obviously make perfect sense.

Cant quite come up with an acronym using "era"...so lets go with GOHT,  pronounced the same as GOAT, except it stands for Greatest Of His Time.

"Recency bias" is a factor for me, not because of recent memory, but because the more recent the player, the more bigger, stronger, and faster he his.

 

No one would ever claim that  Tom Brady would fit into the stronger/faster mode than anyone else.  Taller yea.  Heavier...due to being taller, yea. 

So, what you have to go back to then is either longevity....or winning.     Brady obviously has longevity....if that means anything (Vinny Testaverde played just as long).

And there is winning.   Again, do the math. 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Gorka said:

Jim Brown in my opinion was the GOHT, not the GOAT. In his prime he would be a starter today but definitely not a HOF'er.

See...now you are just being ignorant. 

If I could start a team and select players from any era in their prime, JB wouldn't make the cut because of the era he played in...no more than Jim Thorpe would be because of the era he played in.

You are compounding your ignorance.

Players like Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, Earl Campbell, Adrian Peterson, even our own Nick Chubb and a host of others playing today...them be the ones I'd pick.

And now you are in the area where an award for most ignorance displayed on the Browns Board should bear your name.   Jim Brown combined the elusiveness of Barry Sanders with the power of Earl Campbell and the heart of Walter Payton.  And FYI,  while JB was taller than Earl, they both weighed the same. 

 

 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Gorka said:

Hey Gipper,  I'm almost positive this team, The Akron Pros,  could not compete with...

...this team,  the 1933 NFL Champs Bears, who could not compete with...

...this team, the 64 Browns, who could not compete with...

...this team, the 78 Steelers, who could not compete with ….

this team, the 2017 Browns.

 

But that's just my opinion.lol

I bet there wasn't a player on that Steeler team over 275 lbs.

 

 

 

 

Again, just the recency bias.   You have to put teams in their place.

By your point of view, no team from a decade ago even could compete with a team from 2020. 

[The Gipper]

36 minutes ago, Gorka said:

Bo Jackson, now there's another one.

Yeah I saw films of JB running over guys his size and smaller. But don't you think that if either Earl Campbell for his power or Barry Sanders with his speed and elusiveness would crush JB's records if they played back then? I do.

Conversely, I just don't see JB performing at such a high level in todays NFL.

Fuck, Barry Sanders would have so many of those slow white guys juked out of their jock straps it wouldn't be funny.

You do realize, don't you, that Earl Campbell played only like 10 years after Jim Brown did....and that he too was playing against those same basic slow white guys. 

Their is a term called absolute zero..which is the lowest limit on the thermodynamic scale.    You have just reached Absolute Ignorance. 

[The Gipper]

28 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Mike Tyson was also the GOAT....

 

 

 

..... that should keep him busy. 

You staked that claim.

Defend it. 

[Gorka]

19 hours ago, Bob806 said:

The fact that he owned the Steelers in the playoffs really helped me to like him.

One day ( I hope) the Browns will own the Steelers again, and win the dam AFC North consistently. 

Plus no more hearing "Got Six?"  from steeler fans.