Understanding Our History

[Flugel]

I've been hearing great defense and running games win championships. Unfortunately for us, John Elway had a way of showing us the exception to that rule. Ironically enough, he would have to watch helplessly as his team fell to sizzling HOT QBs on Superbowl Sundays.

 

Folks, Byner's FUMBLE never lost us the 38-31 game out in Denver. Our top rated defense in the conference could NOT stop John Elway. It came down to a Hall of Fame QB vrs the Conference best defense. 38 points later - who wants to tell me all we needed was our great running game and conference best defense? NONSENSE. What we needed was 39-42 points because that's how high Elway raised the bar. BTW, guess HOW MANY points Doug Williams scored against Elway's team in the Superbowl? 42 points.

 

The year before we not only watched a drive of 98 yards punctuated with a TD in the final 2 minutes. We also got it re-punctuated with an overtime drive to break the tie and beat our conference best D. 2 years in a row is closer to a trend than it is the exception to the rule.

 

NOW someone will say John Elway ran into the stifling defense at the Superbowl. Hard to argue that but guess what the opposing QB did on Superbowl Sunday? Phil Simms completed 22 of 25 passes for 268 yards and three touchdowns. Let's conceptualize this together. While only 3 passes touched the ground all day from Simms - just as many ended up crossing the goal line. One of the most accurate passing clinics I've ever seen.

 

The Rest of our post season history might surprise people as well. Believe it or not - we ONLY won 1 Championship with Jim Brown. That said, Otto Graham had us in 10 consecutive Championships from 1946 through 1955 where we won 7 of of those. Folks, you BETTER believe the path to a Championship starts and ends with the QB when the Cleveland Browns are involved. That's why we're always talking about it.

 

Thanks for reading!

- Tom F.

[Guest Masters]

Regarding The Drive, it should be kept in mind that Marty went Prevent D that entire drive. That really didn't give the D much of a chance to seal the game.

[Captain Cheesedick]

Please add "Red Right 88" to this list. Had Sipe not thrown into tight coverage, in the endzone, things might have been different. Now, is it the QB or the coach for calling that play?

[Guest Masters]

Well, if you ask the coach, Sipe, or Newsome, they will tell you that it was the wind that caused that INT. It kept the ball up allowing the defender to close on it and pick it.

[Zombo]

I've been hearing great defense and running games win championships. Unfortunately for us, John Elway had a way of showing us the exception to that rule. Ironically enough, he would have to watch helplessly as his team fell to sizzling HOT QBs on Superbowl Sundays.

 

Folks, Byner's FUMBLE never lost us the 38-31 game out in Denver. Our top rated defense in the conference could NOT stop John Elway. It came down to a Hall of Fame QB vrs the Conference best defense. 38 points later - who wants to tell me all we needed was our great running game and conference best defense? NONSENSE. What we needed was 39-42 points because that's how high Elway raised the bar. BTW, guess HOW MANY points Doug Williams scored against Elway's team in the Superbowl? 42 points.

 

The year before we not only watched a drive of 98 yards punctuated with a TD in the final 2 minutes. We also got it re-punctuated with an overtime drive to break the tie and beat our conference best D. 2 years in a row is closer to a trend than it is the exception to the rule.

 

NOW someone will say John Elway ran into the stifling defense at the Superbowl. Hard to argue that but guess what the opposing QB did on Superbowl Sunday? Phil Simms completed 22 of 25 passes for 268 yards and three touchdowns. Let's conceptualize this together. While only 3 passes touched the ground all day from Simms - just as many ended up crossing the goal line. One of the most accurate passing clinics I've ever seen.

 

The Rest of our post season history might surprise people as well. Believe it or not - we ONLY won 1 Championship with Jim Brown. That said, Otto Graham had us in 10 consecutive Championships from 1946 through 1955 where we won 7 of of those. Folks, you BETTER believe the path to a Championship starts and ends with the QB when the Cleveland Browns are involved. That's why we're always talking about it.

 

Thanks for reading!

- Tom F.

 

Great quarterbacks win championships, no doubt, but great defenses win the AFC North.

 

I would love for one of our QBs to develop into a great one.

 

But how are we going to get past Pittsburgh and Baltimore if they are still more physical and better defensively than us, which they are every year?

 

If you want to be the bully, you've got to beat the bully.

 

Zombo

--Mangini is going to do this thing right.

[Captain Cheesedick]

according to Sam R, Sipe was instructed to "throw the ball into Lake Erie" if nothing was open.

 

Also from what I remember, reports were that Newsome was the secondary reciever. Sipe checked down and still threw into coverage.

 

So, it seems to be a QB mistake.

 

(of course, Sipe got us there, and in position to make a winning field goal or score the touchdown, and had a great season)

[The Gipper]

Here is the real clue guys: It is great balance that wins Championships. Not just great defense, not just great offense, but quality balance between offense, defense, and special teams.

 

A great defense with a lousy offense will not win you a title. The Bears have had some of the greatest defenses in history and never got to a title game. Not until their offense was at full steam in 1985 did they win a SB. Their defense in the 3-4 years surrounding 1985 was just as good, but their offense faltered.

A great offense with a lousy defense will not win you a title. The Dan Fouts led Chargers of the 80s, or the Marino Dolphins prove that.

Oh, there may be a rare statistical exception, but if you go back to say 1950 and the AAFC/NFL merger I suspect you will find that nearly every champion was in the top 10 in both offense and defense that year. (Plus combine quality special teams).

You can win a title without a great QB. Dilfer, Rypien and a few others proved that....but those offenses were well balanced and those QBs did a good job of "managing" those offenses such that they were very productive (and they had sound running games).

[Guest Masters]

according to Sam R, Sipe was instructed to "throw the ball into Lake Erie" if nothing was open.

 

Also from what I remember, reports were that Newsome was the secondary reciever. Sipe checked down and still threw into coverage.

 

So, it seems to be a QB mistake.

 

(of course, Sipe got us there, and in position to make a winning field goal or score the touchdown, and had a great season)

 

Well, how they tell it on the Browns history DVD (meaning Sipe, Newsome, and Sam), is that Ozzie was open, it was a good read, but the wind kept the ball up in the air to long.

[Guest Masters]

You can win a title without a great QB. Dilfer, Rypien and a few others proved that....but those offenses were well balanced and those QBs did a good job of "managing" those offenses such that they were very productive (and they had sound running games).

 

I would hardly call the BALT O under Dilfer balanced. That O was 1 dimensional

[Guest 88fingerslewy]

Regarding The Drive, it should be kept in mind that Marty went Prevent D that entire drive. That really didn't give the D much of a chance to seal the game.

Good point. Whenever I see "prevent" I always wonder if the coach making this call has ever watched football. Whenever a strategy begins with you giving the other team something, your plan is flawed.

 

Pass completions have a funny way of never happening when the QB is on his back, which is hard to do when your front 7 is now a front 3 and there's 8 db's out there.

[Guest Masters]

Good point. Whenever I see "prevent" I always wonder if the coach making this call has ever watched football. Whenever a strategy begins with you giving the other team something, your plan is flawed.

 

Pass completions have a funny way of never happening when the QB is on his back, which is hard to do when your front 7 is now a front 3 and there's 8 db's out there.

 

Indeed sir. Prevent Defense prevents you from winning.

[The Gipper]

Well, here are the statistical facts, which I think to a great degree prove my point about requiring quality balance on a championship team. I am going to go back to the AFL/NFL merger of 1970. It is only since then I believe that all teams in the league were ranked statistically from 1-32 or 1-28, however many teams were in the league. I am listing each year, the Champion for that year, and the statistical rank of that team in the league for offense and defense, which I further break down into their rank for Points scored or allowed and Yards gained or allowed:

 

Year Team Offense rank points yards Defense rank points yards

 

2008 Steelers 22 20 1 1

2007 Giants 14 16 17 7

2006 Colts 2 3 23 21

2005 Steelers 9 15 3 4

2004 Pats 4 7 2 9

2003 Pats 12 17 1 7

2002 Bucs 18 24 1 1

2001 Pats 6 19 6 24

2000 Ravens 14 16 1 2

1999 Rams 1 1 4 6

1998 Broncos 2 3 8 11

1997 Broncos 1 1 6 5

1996 Packers 1 5 1 1

1995 Cowboys 3 5 3 9

1994 49ers 1 2 6 8

1993 Cowboys 2 4 2 10

1992 Cowboys 2 4 5 1

1991 Redskins 1 4 2 3

1990 Giants 15 17 1 2

1989 49ers 1 1 3 4

1988 49ers 7 2 8 3

1987 Redskins 4 3 6 18

1986 Giants 8 10 2 2

1985 Bears 2 7 1 1

1984 49ers 2 2 1 10

1983 Raiders 3 7 13 4

1982 Redskins 12 7 1 4

1981 49ers 7 13 2 2

1980 Raiders 7 16 10 11

1979 Steelers 1 1 5 2

1978 Steelers 5 8 1 3

1977 Cowboys 2 1 8 1

1976 Raiders 4 2 12 18

1975 Steelers 5 7 2 4

1974 Steelers 6 8 2 1

1973 Dolphins 5 9 1 3

1972 Dolphins 1 1 1 1

1971 Cowboys 1 1 7 3

1970 Colts 6 8 7 9

 

As you can see, I believe my point is made. It takes offensive and defensive balance generally to win a title. For the most part, the title winners are among the top 10 in both offense and defense.

[The Gipper]

From my statistical analysis above here are some items that can be gleaned:

 

A. The best statisical offensive teams, i.e those that ranked #1 in both categories include the 1999 Rams, 1997 Broncos, 1989 49ers, the 1979 Steelers, the 1972 Dolphins, and the 1971 Cowboys

 

B. The best statistical defensive teams, i.e. those that ranked #1 in both categories include the 2008 Steelers, the 2002 Bucs, the 1996 Packers, the 1985 Bears, and the 1972 Dolphins

 

C. The very best teams to ever win the Super Bowl, by statistical rankings of their units are:

1. The 1972 Miami Dolphin (combined statistical score of 4....lowest number being the best) the only perfect score!

2. The 1996 Packers (score of 8)

3. The 1989 49ers (score of 9)

3. The 1979 Steelers (also score of 9)

5. The 1991 Redskins (score of 10)

 

D. The "worst" teams to ever win a Super Bowl by statistical rankings are:

1. The 2001 Patriots (score of 55)

2. The 2007 Giants (score of 54)

3. The 2006 Colts (score of 49)

4. The 1980 Raiders (score of 45)

5. The 2008 Steelers (score of 44)

5. The 2002 Bucs (also score of 44)

 

Now, here is the real question: Why are so many of these "worst Super Bowl winners" from this most recent decade?

Does anyone have a clue about this anomaly?

[Riceloft]

Is this what you were going for, cause I can't read the chart you posted.

 

Year Team     Offense rank   points yards   Defense rank   points yards

2008 Steelers      22            20               1              1
2007 Giants        14            16              17              7
2006 Colts          2             3              23             21
2005 Steelers       9            15               3              4
2004 Pats           4             7               2              9
2003 Pats          12            17               1              7
2002 Bucs          18            24               1              1
2001 Pats           6            19               6             24
2000 Ravens        14            16               1              2
1999 Rams           1             1               4              6
1998 Broncos        2             3               8             11
1997 Broncos        1             1               6              5
1996 Packers        1             5               1              1
1995 Cowboys        3             5               3              9
1994 49ers          1             2               6              8
1993 Cowboys        2             4               2             10
1992 Cowboys        2             4               5              1
1991 Redskins       1             4               2              3
1990 Giants        15            17               1              2
1989 49ers          1             1               3              4
1988 49ers          7             2               8              3
1987 Redskins       4             3               6             18
1986 Giants         8            10               2              2
1985 Bears          2             7               1              1
1984 49ers          2             2               1             10
1983 Raiders        3             7              13              4
1982 Redskins      12             7               1              4
1981 49ers          7            13               2              2

[Guest Masters]

What might be better to see is those teams come playoff time, not the regular season. One example is the 2006 Indy team. They were a crappy D most of the season, but come the playoffs, that D suddenly became stout.

[BrownIndian]

I dont know much about what wins championships as it is entirely situational, but offense makes for an interesting game. If the browns were to lose a game i would rather have them losing 27 - 30 rather that 0 - 3. give me those touchdowns, give me the excitement.

[The Gipper]

Sorry about the jumbled mess that came out on my recent post. That is not the way I produced it. The website automatically eliminated the spaces I put between the numbers on the grid.

[The Gipper]

Is this what you were going for, cause I can't read the chart you posted.

 

Year Team     Offense rank   points yards   Defense rank   points yards

2008 Steelers      22            20               1              1
2007 Giants        14            16              17              7
2006 Colts          2             3              23             21
2005 Steelers       9            15               3              4
2004 Pats           4             7               2              9
2003 Pats          12            17               1              7
2002 Bucs          18            24               1              1
2001 Pats           6            19               6             24
2000 Ravens        14            16               1              2
1999 Rams           1             1               4              6
1998 Broncos        2             3               8             11
1997 Broncos        1             1               6              5
1996 Packers        1             5               1              1
1995 Cowboys        3             5               3              9
1994 49ers          1             2               6              8
1993 Cowboys        2             4               2             10
1992 Cowboys        2             4               5              1
1991 Redskins       1             4               2              3
1990 Giants        15            17               1              2
1989 49ers          1             1               3              4
1988 49ers          7             2               8              3
1987 Redskins       4             3               6             18
1986 Giants         8            10               2              2
1985 Bears          2             7               1              1
1984 49ers          2             2               1             10
1983 Raiders        3             7              13              4
1982 Redskins      12             7               1              4
1981 49ers          7            13               2              2

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[The Gipper]

Note some of these anomalies on the chart:

 

1. Those 2001 Pats who had the worst combined number had the strangest divergence between the points and the yards allowed.

Though they were 19th in yards gained, they were 6th in points scored. The mark of a very efficient offense.

Though they were 24th in yards allowed, they were 6th in points allowed. Very much a bend but don't break defense.

 

2. It could truly be said that defense won championships for the 2008 Squealers, the 2002 Bucs, and the 2000 Ratbirds. They had offenses that essentially ranked in the bottom half of the league standings, but defenses right at the very top.

Again, all teams in the 00s decade. Seems like a trend of sorts.

 

3. Contrarily, the offenses carried the day for the 2006 Colts (yes, their defense got hot in postseason but we are talking overall) and the 1976 Raiders whose defenses ranked in the bottom half of the league.

[Guest Masters]

3. Contrarily, the offenses carried the day for the 2006 Colts (yes, their defense got hot in postseason but we are talking overall) and the 1976 Raiders whose defenses ranked in the bottom half of the league.

 

True, but championships aren't won in the regular season.

[The Gipper]

True, but championships aren't won in the regular season.

 

No, but a defense usually does't change its stripes. That Colts team is the only time in the history of the Super Bowl at least that a defense that poorly rated got a Super Bowl win out of it. It obviously stepped up its game that year.

Very often, a team with that bad a defense never sees the postseason.

 

[Guest Masters]

No, but a defense usually does't change its stripes. That Colts team is the only time in the history of the Super Bowl at least that a defense that poorly rated got a Super Bowl win out of it. It obviously stepped up its game that year.

Very often, a team with that bad a defense never sees the postseason.

 

You won't get a disagreement from me on that. While the Colts D were a regular season exception, their playoff D was tops and that was my point.

 

What you tend to see is playoff teams have top 10 O's and D's. What might be an interesting thing to look at is come playoffs, how did the SB winning teams D and O rank against the other playoff teams. I'd be surprised if in most cases the SB winner was the team giving up the least amount of points per game throughout the playoffs.

 

[Guest c-dawg]

Here is the real clue guys: It is great balance that wins Championships. Not just great defense, not just great offense, but quality balance between offense, defense, and special teams.

 

Very nice point. I think perhaps one of the best illustrations of this can be found in the 1964 championship game, as depicted by Terry Pluto in When All the World Was Browns Town.

 

Offense and defense combined for that win. Moreover, Paul Brown had been replaced as head coach by Blanton Collier, a coach that was not as dictatorial as Brown and who was able to incorporate player input and feedback into the winning game plan for that particular matchup with the Colts, something Brown could not have done due to his personality: Brown was the coach, why would he ever have to ask a player for their input?

 

I believe that the 1964 championship team was innovative in terms of "teamwork:" offense, defense and coaching staff used film study to break down the Colts' and changed the way teams prepared to play the game.

 

 

 

[Flugel]

Great quarterbacks win championships, no doubt, but great defenses win the AFC North.

 

I would love for one of our QBs to develop into a great one.

 

But how are we going to get past Pittsburgh and Baltimore if they are still more physical and better defensively than us, which they are every year?

 

If you want to be the bully, you've got to beat the bully.

 

Zombo

--Mangini is going to do this thing right.

 

 

I hear ya. That said, you can't beat the bully if you can't punch him in the face. When Pittsburgh beat us 10-6, they stuck their chin out at DA confident he wouldn't connect. They were right. That INT in the red zone right before half was just another brutal reminder he doesn't have the goods to beat anyone significant in our division or our conference.

 

When DA throws a screen pass to T.Suggs and a strike to Ed Reed for TDs - now he's punching himself in the face so the opponent doesn't HAVE to. No more Kyle Boller out-follying DA enough to bail him out.

 

To be honest, the BEST thing Baltimore has done for themselves is to remove a DUMB QB from their starting lineup. They swept us 2 years without Boller and forfeited WITH him. Even Charlie Frye was able to beat the Boller-led Ratbirds at the end of 05. Isn't it amazing we notice Baltimore played GREAT defense every season Boller didn't start? Coincidence or trend?

 

A DUMB QB can nullify a day your D only gives up 10 points or less. That sucked losing 2 games that we only let up 10 points in last year.

- Tom F.

[Sez.EJ]

I've been hearing great defense and running games win championships. Unfortunately for us, John Elway had a way of showing us the exception to that rule. Ironically enough, he would have to watch helplessly as his team fell to sizzling HOT QBs on Superbowl Sundays.

 

Folks, Byner's FUMBLE never lost us the 38-31 game out in Denver. Our top rated defense in the conference could NOT stop John Elway. It came down to a Hall of Fame QB vrs the Conference best defense. 38 points later - who wants to tell me all we needed was our great running game and conference best defense? NONSENSE. What we needed was 39-42 points because that's how high Elway raised the bar. BTW, guess HOW MANY points Doug Williams scored against Elway's team in the Superbowl? 42 points.

 

The year before we not only watched a drive of 98 yards punctuated with a TD in the final 2 minutes. We also got it re-punctuated with an overtime drive to break the tie and beat our conference best D. 2 years in a row is closer to a trend than it is the exception to the rule.

 

NOW someone will say John Elway ran into the stifling defense at the Superbowl. Hard to argue that but guess what the opposing QB did on Superbowl Sunday? Phil Simms completed 22 of 25 passes for 268 yards and three touchdowns. Let's conceptualize this together. While only 3 passes touched the ground all day from Simms - just as many ended up crossing the goal line. One of the most accurate passing clinics I've ever seen.

 

The Rest of our post season history might surprise people as well. Believe it or not - we ONLY won 1 Championship with Jim Brown. That said, Otto Graham had us in 10 consecutive Championships from 1946 through 1955 where we won 7 of of those. Folks, you BETTER believe the path to a Championship starts and ends with the QB when the Cleveland Browns are involved. That's why we're always talking about it.

 

Thanks for reading!

- Tom F.

 

We won championships in the heyday of football because we had the greatest offensive innovator at the time, Paul Brown. Modern football generally wins with the best defense.

 

The year of the drive, we held Denver to 13 points and dumbass (still love'ya Marty) Marty Shotenabeer played prevent defense allowing Elway to to make history with "The Drive" . Had he played straightup defense like he had the other 55 minutes, we would have won that game WITH OUR DEFENSE.

 

If you remember the year of the fumble. Denver's defense held us to a fieldgoal in the first half making us play catchup down 21 to 3. It was not OUR defense..but Denvers that won the game. Their defense created Byners fumble by punching the ball loose.. Defense Won the game.

 

Giants vs Denver..defense again won the game. Phil sims was able to put up his numbers due to the GREAT field position his DEFENSE put him in. I also remember the giants stuffing denver 3 straight times with a first and goal at the 1 yard line..then karlis missed a field goal.. The Giants also sacked elway for a safety. Denver was limited to only TWO NET YARD in the entire third quater... that's stifling defense guys... 2 net yards!!!!. They also incercepted Elway, caused 2 fumbles and had 4 sacks.. But our trying to tell me offense won this game.. bullspit.

 

Don't tell me defense does not win championships.

 

Always remember guys.. half of the truth.. is still a whole lie.

 

Flug's...this is not meant to be a personal attack.. just a commited opposing viewpoint.

[LNC]

No, but a defense usually does't change its stripes. That Colts team is the only time in the history of the Super Bowl at least that a defense that poorly rated got a Super Bowl win out of it. It obviously stepped up its game that year.

Very often, a team with that bad a defense never sees the postseason.

 

 

You won't get a disagreement from me on that. While the Colts D were a regular season exception, their playoff D was tops and that was my point.

 

What you tend to see is playoff teams have top 10 O's and D's. What might be an interesting thing to look at is come playoffs, how did the SB winning teams D and O rank against the other playoff teams. I'd be surprised if in most cases the SB winner was the team giving up the least amount of points per game throughout the playoffs.

 

The Cards would be a case for that. They didn't win, but they came within a gnat's eyelash. They had the #3 offense last year, but the #28 defense, even worse than the Colts. But look at how much better their defense did during the play off run, standing up the Falcons, Panthers, and Eagles. They almost got the Steelers too.

 

Yeah, looked on NFL.com, Cards were the #6 defense through the play offs according to stats. And the 2006 Colts were #1 through the play offs in defense. That validates your point I think Masters.

 

[Flugel]

The Cards would be a case for that. They didn't win, but they came within a gnat's eyelash. They had the #3 offense last year, but the #28 defense, even worse than the Colts. But look at how much better their defense did during the play off run, standing up the Falcons, Panthers, and Eagles. They almost got the Steelers too.

 

Yeah, looked on NFL.com, Cards were the #6 defense through the play offs according to stats. And the 2006 Colts were #1 through the play offs in defense. That validates your point I think Masters.

 

If you look at the last 2 Superbowls - the LOSING teams both scored TDs with about 2 minutes left to go on the eventual CHAMPIONS. Being as honest as I can, the team that had the ball last needed a LEADER taking the snaps to drive his team to the Lombardi Trophy. Anything else is just creative spin.

 

Folks, OBVIOUSLY you don't want a crappy defense or a crappy running game. I'm just trying to point out the NFL has changed rules to favor passing games so it stands to reason that your most successful teams are the ones being guided by Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Donovan McNabb. Why else would you suppose someone would draft a Matt Ryan or Matthew Stafford and pay them the dollar amounts they do? Because of the importance of the position in TODAY'S rules. I didn't invent that - I'm merely reminding people of that.

 

If all you needed was the RIGHT defense and running game - how many playoff games did you see Minnesota, Carolina and Tennessee winning last year?

- Tom F.

[Guest Masters]

If you look at the last 2 Superbowls - the LOSING teams both scored TDs with about 2 minutes left to go on the eventual CHAMPIONS. Being as honest as I can, the team that had the ball last needed a LEADER taking the snaps to drive his team to the Lombardi Trophy. Anything else is just creative spin.

 

Folks, OBVIOUSLY you don't want a crappy defense or a crappy running game. I'm just trying to point out the NFL has changed rules to favor passing games so it stands to reason that your most successful teams are the ones being guided by Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Donovan McNabb.

 

If all you needed was the RIGHT defense and running game - how many playoff games did you see Minnesota, Carolina and Tennessee winning last year?

- Tom F.

 

I would put that as a QB driven league more than say an O driven.

 

I am not really sold that the rule changes have really favored the passing game. In the eye test of watching games, I see less big plays in the passing game (at least down field) than there used to be in the past. Stopping hand checking and contact between DBs and WR has hurt the O as much as the D. When guys could check each other, WR could get a step on the DB as much as the DB could do it to a WR. We used to also see a lot more pass interference calls for big plays.

 

But that's just me.

[Flugel]

The year of the drive, we held Denver to 13 points and dumbass (still love'ya Marty) Marty Shotenabeer played prevent defense allowing Elway to to make history with "The Drive" . Had he played straightup defense like he had the other 55 minutes, we would have won that game WITH OUR DEFENSE.

 

If you remember the year of the fumble. Denver's defense held us to a fieldgoal in the first half making us play catchup down 21 to 3. It was not OUR defense..but Denvers that won the game. Their defense created Byners fumble by punching the ball loose.. Defense Won the game.

 

Flug's...this is not meant to be a personal attack.. just a commited opposing viewpoint.

 

I appreciate the reply Sez; but you're STILL dismissing the FACT that the AFC's #1 Ranked Defense didn't play in the Superbowls against the Giants & Redskins. It wasn't enough and I dare say the combination of Mack & Byner trumped any other running tandem in the playoffs so WAS great defense and a GREAT running game enough to trump Elway? You've got spin and excuses while I'm looking at the bottom line of 0 for 2. If our D is giving up 38 points - that's a cruddy margin of error for our offense to work with regardless of how creative you want to get.

 

And YES, 2 of the BETTER SB passing day performances were from Phil Simms going an uncontested 22 of 25 passing for 3 TDs and Doug Williams leading Washington to an uncontested 42 points.

 

As for our Titles and 10 consecutive appearances - you can go on thinking we didn't need Otto Graham from 1946 through 1955 because of the coach, oline and great defense. That's fine.

 

I carefully worded the subject heading; BECAUSE all I ever hear are excuses about the drive. If it wasn't for Mark Gastineau roughing the QB - the slumping Jets had us beaten the week before the Drive. Last but not least, NOBODY ever thinks of the 38-31 conference championship loss as a great defensive battle. Seriously. TRUTH is we don't have alot of our defensive players in the Hall of Fame for a team that won 8 Pro Football Championships and competed in 10 straight. The biggest name from that era is Otto Graham - that's just the inconvenient truth for some reason.

- Tom F.

[The Gipper]

I would put that as a QB driven league more than say an O driven.

 

I am not really sold that the rule changes have really favored the passing game. In the eye test of watching games, I see less big plays in the passing game (at least down field) than there used to be in the past. Stopping hand checking and contact between DBs and WR has hurt the O as much as the D. When guys could check each other, WR could get a step on the DB as much as the DB could do it to a WR. We used to also see a lot more pass interference calls for big plays.

 

But that's just me.

 

As to the question of rule changes affecting the passing game, who do you think holds the all time record for yards gained per pass attempt? Would you think maybe Marino or Elway or Warner or Brady or some other current guy?

Nyetski. It is a guy that played in the 40s and 50s.....our own Otto Graham!

What do you think is the significance of that fact?