Is time bringing OBJ question more into focus?

[Barry]

Here is an article by Brent Sobleski on Twitter where he admits that there has been enough time, i.e. games, to where it is becoming clear that the Browns are a better team without OBJ. The stats are all there, and the eye test is there also. Baker scans the field better, he throws to more receivers (9 in the first half alone against the Titans), and of course the wins are there.

The strongest argument for keeping OBJ, imo, is that it isn't OBJ not being in the lineup that has made Baker improve, it is Baker getting used to the system. But even if that's true and Baker shows that the Titans game was not an aberration but the norm my feeling is that, from a money/cap perspective and a trade value perspective, we would get more value trading OBJ than keeping him on the team.

I look at it this way. In this system does it make much sense that we pay so much $ to a guy that will catch 65 passes for 1,100 yards tops? (Because if he is catching a lot more passes than that then the balance between the receivers and the offense start to skew) And while OBJ's value is down because of his injury, imagine what his value will be next year if we find out that he IS the reason for Baker not being successful, and we decide to unload him at that time. It will be the middle of the season and teams will know that we need to unload him.

https://t.co/8xR6GRwCiq?amp=1

[SdBacker80]

Let me start with...He’s Probably not worth the level of coin he’s getting.

But I challenge the theory that we are a better team with him out.   He’s fast, he has hands, he can stretch the field and he’s the best WR playmaker after the catch (it’s not close).  

This is where Baker needs to grow up further in this offseason and take what defenses gives him.  It’s not give OBJ at least 10 targets a game no matter the circumstances.  Let Stefanski throw in some run wrinkles with him too.  

[The Gipper]

I think it is a  horseshit assumption based on a purely prejudicial attitude. 

[calfoxwc]

It's nonsense. The timing is all about the system being implemented, the coaches developing what works

and what doesn't, finding out their identity, and after having a new coaching staff, new systems, and covid little playing

time to get ready for the season, the op article author simply makes an ASSumption that doesn't fit. OBJ was a field stretcher bigtime, this offense would really rock in the playoffs if they got him back. just my opinion.

[Dutch Oven]

How did Mayfield look his rookie season (without OBJ) and since OBJ suffered a season-ending injury this year? 

How did Mayfield look his second season (with OBJ) and this season before OBJ suffered a season-ending injury?

 

[Ibleedbrown]

I thought the article was a good read. The author was almost apologetic about it all, like a sensitive break up. “You know, you’re a great girl. You’re just not the right girl for me.”

The way l see it, there’s a pecking order on who the most important playmakers are on the team outside of the QB. There’s Chubb, Landry, and Hunt, in that order. After that, probably Hooper? Then maybe OBJ? 
 

When you’re basically the 5th most important playmaker on offense and it comes time to make difficult financial decisions the cost to usefulness ratio has to be considered. 

[The Gipper]

30 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

I thought the article was a good read. The author was almost apologetic about it all, like a sensitive break up. “You know, you’re a great girl. You’re just not the right girl for me.”

The way l see it, there’s a pecking order on who the most important playmakers are on the team outside of the QB. There’s Chubb, Landry, and Hunt, in that order. After that, probably Hooper? Then maybe OBJ? 
 

When you’re basically the 5th most important playmaker on offense and it comes time to make difficult financial decisions the cost to usefulness ratio has to be considered. 

Well, I think they have wholly underused Hooper and maybe all their TEs....especially since OBJ went down. 

I would kind of like to see a "spread sheet", i.e.   how they have distributed their passes....spread them out that is, between each position,  WRs, TEs, RBs. 

I wonder if anyone has a link or something to that. 

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well, I think they have wholly underused Hooper and maybe all their TEs....especially since OBJ went down. 

I would kind of like to see a "spread sheet", i.e.   how they have distributed their passes....spread them out that is, between each position,  WRs, TEs, RBs. 

I wonder if anyone has a link or something to that. 

That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought. 

[Icecube]

6 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I think it is a  horseshit assumption based on a purely prejudicial attitude. 

5-1 without OBJ in the line up. Don't choke too hard. I predicted it all. 

[Unsympathetic]

WR is the candy on top of any offense.  That is, if the offense is legit.  Think of all the playoff games Megatron and Stafford won.. [Fun fact: 0-2]  The offense functions without the WR, but it only gets to the next level with the WR. 

49ers were a playoff team without Rice.. how often do you think they complained about his salary?

This is a tired discussion, which means we'll repeat it every week until only angry people reply.

[Icecube]

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

How did Mayfield look his rookie season (without OBJ) and since OBJ suffered a season-ending injury this year? 

How did Mayfield look his second season (with OBJ) and this season before OBJ suffered a season-ending injury?

 

5-1 since OBJ went down. It's that simple. 

[The Gipper]

4 minutes ago, Icecube said:

5-1 without OBJ in the line up. Don't choke too hard. I predicted it all. 

Well, when it comes to OBJ, you are just a hate filled  K-hole.  So you have -0- credibility on this subject.   And there is NO evidence that the Browns record would not have been the same...or better with OBJ in there. (he was hurt for the Raiders game where he conceivably could have made a difference).

Furthermore, I also think that the success of the Browns as the season has gone along they, partiularly Baker are really getting more with it with Stefanski's system....and OBJ's presence would have enhanced that even more. 

[The Gipper]

9 minutes ago, Icecube said:

5-1 since OBJ went down. It's that simple. 

And they may have been 6-0 with him...lost that fairly close game vs. Raiders.  He could have made the difference.  Its that simple.   Though it really isn't. Like I said, its the whole familiarity and implementation of the offensive and defensive systems that probably made the difference. 

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought. 

If we don't get Florida's TE Pitts in 2021, then may I send another in 2022, now Soph Aggie TE  Jalen Wydermeyer? First team Freshman AA 2019 and go-to receiver this year. Very wide and high catch radius. Very similar to Mike Evans with same height and speed, but a better blocker. I think he is our best pro prospect currently on the team. Take a look at a few highlights from last year. Notice those super-long arms on top of a 6'5" frame. He and Pitts are the two best this year I think, but he has another year before he can go pro.

 

[Nero]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought. 

I wouldn't say they have been underused. They've been extensively done work on blocking on run plays, to later make some big catches on certain plays. What you can't expect is to have the ball going 8/10 times to the TEs... Currently probably it's 3/10 and I think it's OK. 

[Gunz41]

55 minutes ago, Icecube said:

5-1 without OBJ in the line up. Don't choke too hard. I predicted it all. 

No, you didn't predict it all. When you make a statement that will eventually be true, that is not a correct prediction.

First, you said he would be gone after during his 1st year.

Next, he would be gone in the off-season.

Then would be gone during this season.

Yes, at SOME POINT you will be correct. Whether that is today, end of this year, or in 10 years.

For whatever reason you dislike him. It appears to go beyond him being a good/bad fit for the Browns.

But go ahead and pat yourself on the back, you made a prediction that has ZERO chance of being wrong....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll even go one further for you, his is MY MAJOR PREDICTION to rival Icecube, it will snow in Cleveland.

[Tour2ma]

6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

It's nonsense. The timing is all about the system being implemented, the coaches developing what works

and what doesn't, finding out their identity, and after having a new coaching staff, new systems, and covid little playing

Other than not knowing who "covid little" is, I agree...

We had no camp. We had OBJ for 6 games and change. We've been without him for 5 and change. Through it all Stef has been installing his Offense and coaching Baker up.

I hope to hell we looked better in Week 12 than we were in week 6.

1 hour ago, Icecube said:

5-1 since OBJ went down. It's that simple. 

Overly simplistic horseshit...

[calfoxwc]

14 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Other than not knowing who "covid little" is, I agree...

We had no camp. We had OBJ for 6 games and change. We've been without him for 5 and change. Through it all Stef has been installing his Offense and coaching Baker up.

lol ...my bad

"covid - little practice time/few exhibition games to iron it all out as much as possible.

 

[Tour2ma]

Pretty sure I knew what you meant, but I can't let that stand in the way of fun...

[gumby73]

10 hours ago, Icecube said:

5-1 without OBJ in the line up. Don't choke too hard. I predicted it all. 

Sources say....

 

💩

[nickers]

Why fight over this... We're 9-3... Let's get that Dubya and roast some Ratbird!!

[Dutch Oven]

So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without. 

With OBJ:

420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int

Without OBJ:

412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int 

 

[Nero]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without. 

With OBJ:

420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int

Without OBJ:

412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int 

 

OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired... 

I would like to know the stats from this year with and without OBJ, but then again as Tour said the team HAD to improve throughout the season, so the comparison is hard to make or oversimplistic. 

[Dutch Oven]

Thoughts on my above post:

- Baker averages almost a full yard per attempt more without OBJ, which makes me wonder how much OBJ really opens up the offense and stretches the defense.

- Baker's "Without OBJ" stats for this season has one giant advantage over his "With OBJ" 2020 stats: They don't have Pittsburgh and Baltimore in them. Baker not being pressured vs Baker being pressured is two different QBs. Baker's two giant games this season, vs Cincinnati (the game OBJ blew out his knee in the first quarter) and vs Tennessee were against defenses that brought next to no pressure. His games vs Pittsburgh and Baltimore were not very productive. 

[MLD Woody]

I guess the only thing we can do now is ask the Giants for a trade back

[Dutch Oven]

4 minutes ago, Nero said:

I would like to know the stats from this year with and without OBJ, but then again as Tour said the team HAD to improve throughout the season, so the comparison is hard to make or oversimplistic. 

Baker 2020 stats w/ OBJ:

103 com, 170 att, 61% com, 1095 yards, 6.4 yds/att, 10 td, 6 int

Baker 2020 stats w/o OBJ:

102 com, 157 att, 66% com, 1347 yards, 8.6 yds/att, 11 td, 1 int*

* Technically, I could have broken this down even more. I included the entirety of the second game vs Cincinnati in the "without OBJ" stats, when he did play early on before injuring his knee. In fact, the one interception in the w/o OBJ stats was intended for OBJ. It was the play OBJ blew out his knee. 

[Dutch Oven]

25 minutes ago, Nero said:

OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired...  

Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way they have. Let's flush them out concerning this. 

For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games. 

[Nero]

9 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way the have. Let's flush them out concerning this. 

For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games. 

Plus Nick Chubb missed 4 of those games. IIRC, he got injured in the first half of the Cowboys' game (Week 4), and in those first 8 games we played Ravens and Steelers, both times the Offense sucking big time, not only thanks to OBJ... Chubb had season low yards vs the Ravens. 

It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like. 

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, Nero said:

It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like. 

See, I disagree with you on that, but I don't blame OBJ for this, I blame Baker. 

There has been stretches where it looked to me like Baker was going to do everything in his power to make sure OBJ was involved. I saw many instances of OBJ being covered like wallpaper and Baker staring him down and still forcing throws.

Unlike some here, I don't hate OBJ. I don't particularly like him, but I don't think he's a cancer to the Browns. I just don't think he's a player who can be counted on, a player that when things start going bad, he'll be the guy who steadies the ship. If things are going well, he's fine. If things start going bad, he'll not help turn it around. Plus, he's not someone who can be counted on to be on the field. Simply, I believe OBJ not being on the field, despite his talent, is an example of addition by subtraction regarding Baker. 

[The Gipper]

54 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without. 

With OBJ:

420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int

Without OBJ:

412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int 

 

A better measure would be Baker  under Stefanski,  and Baker without Stefanski.