Is time bringing OBJ question more into focus?

[Nero]

11 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

See, I disagree with you on that, but I don't blame OBJ for this, I blame Baker. 

There has been stretches where it looked to me like Baker was going to do everything in his power to make sure OBJ was involved. I saw many instances of OBJ being covered like wallpaper and Baker staring him down and still forcing throws.

Unlike some here, I don't hate OBJ. I don't particularly like him, but I don't think he's a cancer to the Browns. I just don't think he's a player who can be counted on, a player that when things start going bad, he'll be the guy who steadies the ship. If things are going well, he's fine. If things start going bad, he'll not help turn it around. Plus, he's not someone who can be counted on to be on the field. Simply, I believe OBJ not being on the field, despite his talent, is an example of addition by subtraction regarding Baker. 

About forcing the ball, I had that feeling of forcing the ball LAST year, not this one. 

[Dutch Oven]

11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

A better measure would be Baker  under Stefanski,  and Baker without Stefanski. 

Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.

Men are talking football here. 

[SdBacker80]

13 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If we don't get Florida's TE Pitts in 2021, then may I send another in 2022, now Soph Aggie TE  Jalen Wydermeyer? First team Freshman AA 2019 and go-to receiver this year. Very wide and high catch radius. Very similar to Mike Evans with same height and speed, but a better blocker. I think he is our best pro prospect currently on the team. Take a look at a few highlights from last year. Notice those super-long arms on top of a 6'5" frame. He and Pitts are the two best this year I think, but he has another year before he can go pro.

 

Looks like a younger Ben Watson.  Definite guy to keep an eye on 

[TexasAg1969]

14 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Looks like a younger Ben Watson.  Definite guy to keep an eye on 

In 4 less games he has already matched last year's yds and TDs. But the main thing Browns fans need to know is that he is the 3rd down go-to guy and up until their poor offensive performance against LSU after a 3 week layoff, A&M was the top 3rd down team in the country, This guy is why that was. He had two key TDs in their last 31-20 win over Auburn last week, with the big catches coming in 4th Q 17 point run. He's a player when the game is on the line. I feel the same about Florida's TE Pitts. Very similar kind of players. But I think Pitts will be gone by the time we pick. So keep this one a secret in 2022.🤣

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.

Men are talking football here. 

Men, I don't see any men.  Certainly not where you are concerned, boy. 

Besides, I said between 10-15.   You can elevate him if you would like to 10

[D Bone]

As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew the triggering would be instant. 

[Icecube]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Men, I don't see any men.  Certainly not where you are concerned, boy. 

Besides, I said between 10-15.   You can elevate him if you would like to 10

Name 9 better HCs than Hoodie. 

[Icecube]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:53 PM, Barry said:

Here is an article by Brent Sobleski on Twitter where he admits that there has been enough time, i.e. games, to where it is becoming clear that the Browns are a better team without OBJ. The stats are all there, and the eye test is there also.

https://t.co/8xR6GRwCiq?amp=1

I've been declaring this since before the season even started. The only game they lost since OBJ has been out was the game with the torrential downpour. When OBJ was on the field, Baker felt the pressure to get him the ball; when not, he throws to whoever is open. And what a difference it has been. 

[MDDawg]

With OBJ we could be legit SB contenders even with this defense (KC's SB winning defense wasn't that great, fricking Ogbah was one of their best playmakers lol). OBJ is a WR swiss knife, can play all receiver positions and the opposing defense ALWAYS has to gameplan against him. I've liked Sobleski's work in the past but in this case I disagree with him.

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Icecube said:

Name 9 better HCs than Hoodie. 

I did in another thread. Find it. 

[browns52]

On 12/11/2020 at 6:19 PM, Dutch Oven said:

That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought. 

eh, hooper played here in atlanta and he was ok....he is not a kittle or the big dude with lv..not even close....then there is ajokeu...he stinks....the other te number 88 drops passes and fumbles the ball.....we probably still need a good te....maybe in the draft.....

[gumby73]

December 12, 2020 at 5:17 pm

I don’t know if their overall passing game has improved without Beckham, but Jarvis Landry certainly has benefited from his absence.

 

From some guys that matter...  

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/12/12/browns-receivers-coach-downplays-connection-between-objs-absence-and-passing-games-improvement/  

 

 Khadarel Hodge with D. Ward will be out this week ... Landry/Higgins/Peoples & a newbie Marvin Hall are all we have on active 53 at this time.. to be continued.  

[Unsympathetic]

Nobody is considering the public statements of Baker -- they were just figuring out Stef's new system when OBJ's injury happened.  First couple wks of this season were like the preseason as far as installing it.

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

First couple wks of this season were like the preseason as far as installing it.

I'd go up to at least four games. Even with a normal pre-season Belichick considers the first four weeks of the regular season to be a trial period. Of course, what does he know?

[The Cysko Kid]

I'm not gonna say the refs were biased but they might have gotten them from group homes in this weird covid season. 

 

I mean stefanski had to throw a challenge flag to get them to acknowledge when the ravens had 15 defenders on the field. 

[mjp28]

1 minute ago, The Cysko Kid said:

I'm not gonna say the refs were biased but they might have gotten them from group homes in this weird covid season. 

 

I mean stefanski had to throw a challenge flag to get them to acknowledge when the ravens had 15 defenders on the field. 

I thought it was 14 but who's counting...... not the refs.   

[Unsympathetic]

Time does bring the OBJ question into focus.

We really needed him last night -- nobody else was able to consistently beat tight man coverage.  OBJ is that good, whether anyone likes to admit it or not.  And he'd have turned many of those drops into catches.

Put him on the Browns last night and it's a W.

[The Gipper]

35 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Time does bring the OBJ question into focus.

We really needed him last night -- nobody else was able to consistently beat tight man coverage.  OBJ is that good, whether anyone likes to admit it or not.  And he'd have turned many of those drops into catches.

Put him on the Browns last night and it's a W.

Yea, because 42 points is just not enough to win with our shitty defense. 

[jcam222]

I overall agree with the article. That’s not a dig on OBJ. Je is without a doubt an elite talent. It’s a dig on Baker who can’t view OBJ as just another target. He forces the ball to him and it causes issues. 

[The Gipper]

7 minutes ago, jcam222 said:

I overall agree with the article. That’s not a dig on OBJ. Je is without a doubt an elite talent. It’s a dig on Baker who can’t view OBJ as just another target. He forces the ball to him and it causes issues. 

I think a bigger issue was simply Baker adapting to the Stefanski system than "worrying about OBJ".    I wish we had him back in there now that Baker seems to be so much better inculcated with the system.  I believe with him it would hum right along. 

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I think a bigger issue was simply Baker adapting to the Stefanski system than "worrying about OBJ".    I wish we had him back in there now that Baker seems to be so much better inculcated with the system.  I believe with him it would hum right along. 

Baker "hummed along" without OBJ his rookie season, when he broke the rookie record for touchdown passes. 

He then regressed from that last season with OBJ on the team, and was pretty mediocre this season with him. 

Then he immediately has the game of his career in the game OBJ has a season-ending injury. 

[jiggins7919]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I think a bigger issue was simply Baker adapting to the Stefanski system than "worrying about OBJ".    I wish we had him back in there now that Baker seems to be so much better inculcated with the system.  I believe with him it would hum right along. 

I totally agree. I think we'd have a deadly deep threat that with OBJ. I really do. 

[Orion]

11 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Baker "hummed along" without OBJ his rookie season, when he broke the rookie record for touchdown passes. 

He then regressed from that last season with OBJ on the team,  Freddie Kitchens   and was pretty mediocre this season with him.   Tough defenses early on in the schedule

Then he immediately has the game of his career in the game OBJ has a season-ending injury.   Bengals defense

Perhaps there's a chemistry problem with Baker when OBJ is on the field.  Or, perhaps he knows how good OBJ is and figures, if all else fails, force it towards OBJ and he might make a great catch for you.  And as long as he's putting the ball where it shouldn't be intercepted, then it's better than taking a sack or throwing it into the stands.  As I recall, I felt he tried to force it too much to Landry in his rookie year....but that would stand to reason if he was your best 'great catch' type of guy.

I just can't (almost refuse) to believe that we're a better team with lesser talent.  (so long as that talent isn't a dick...and OBJ just seems like one, but isn't, according to any player he has played with)

[Dutch Oven]

12 minutes ago, Orion said:

I just can't (almost refuse) to believe that we're a better team with lesser talent.  (so long as that talent isn't a dick...and OBJ just seems like one, but isn't, according to any player he has played with)

I get it, it doesn't make sense.

But man, the numbers seem to say it could very well be true. 

[The Gipper]

50 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Baker "hummed along" without OBJ his rookie season, when he broke the rookie record for touchdown passes. 

He then regressed from that last season with OBJ on the team, and was pretty mediocre this season with him. 

Then he immediately has the game of his career in the game OBJ has a season-ending injury. 

What?  Have you become Ice Cube?   You forget that last year there was the Fat Freddy factor. 

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

I get it, it doesn't make sense.

But man, the numbers seem to say it could very well be true. 

Don't bring up numbers, facts and other ridiculous stuff in an emotionally based thread you dumbass.  

I like his blonde hair. 

[Dutch Oven]

8 hours ago, The Gipper said:

What?  Have you become Ice Cube?   You forget that last year there was the Fat Freddy factor. 

Or the fact that Baker showed up to his second season fat and unprepared...

Like I've said before, there's definitely shades of grey to all of this. There can be some legit reasons for the difference between his production with and without OBJ.

But there's a big difference.

[Dutch Oven]

8 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I totally agree. I think we'd have a deadly deep threat that with OBJ. I really do. 

Why does Baker average almost 2 yards an attempt more WITHOUT OBJ this season then?

That includes three horrible weather games you were losing your shit over. 

[jiggins7919]

2 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Why does Baker average almost 2 yards an attempt more WITHOUT OBJ this season then?

That includes three horrible weather games you were losing your shit over. 

I get it. I really do. The only rebuttal is that Baker is simply more comfortable in the offense, but it's a strong argument. Baker is seeing the field better, trusting his eyes, and making better decisions. I totally get what you're saying, and you could be right, but I just don't think a QB gets better by not having a guy like OBJ. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Or the fact that Baker showed up to his second season fat and unprepared...

Like I've said before, there's definitely shades of grey to all of this. There can be some legit reasons for the difference between his production with and without OBJ.

But there's a big difference.

The Stefanski factor, to me is by far the more important, impactful factor.