🏈🟫⬜🟧Official Gameday Thread Browns at Patriots 🟧⬜🟫🏈

[Orion]

Today we got about 250 yards of offense.  And 157 of those were from D'Ernest Johnson.  Just an awful game from both sides of the ball.  Except for D'E.

[Unsympathetic]

14 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of the NFL salary cap

All analytics requires someone - "The Football Guys" - to determine what positions they want to focus on.  Browns obviously decided one of theirs is OL.

The reason OL isn't usually an invested position isn't because everybody hates the OL.. it's because many GM's choose to accumulate salaries at WR/CB positions - where the avg salary is higher.  But.. and there's always little-mentioned caveats.. If a player [let's call him Teller] is substantially better at his position than what you'll find at the average or even slightly above-average, that's where the resigning of an otherwise-ignored position would actually be determined to be worth it.

 

The other piece that hasn't been mentioned much after the moves last week is.. Landry is now the #1 salary on our roster by nearly 4M.  I think we can all agree he hasn't played like that for over a season.  I'd be shocked if they don't offer to restructure after the season - and then when he refuses they'll take the 1.5 dead on 2022 and cut him.  Don't blame analytics for the hot take that 23 catches [includes today's 4] and no TD's in 10 games is not an effective way to spend 14.7M.. and next season he's 16.6 so we'll save 15.1 by cutting. 

Note that Teller's 2022 will be only 4.8 so there's a season for a rental FA in 2022 before Teller's salary jumps to 15.8 in 2023.

 

Also: Yes, the salary cap is going up next season.. but we already have increases baked into current contracts [Johnson 3.7-7.7, Hooper 8-13, Clowney 3.6 dead, Mayfield 10-18] which take up that increase of 20.  We're already starting to "mortgage the future" == take a look at Troy Hill, Clowney, and Hooper's contracts.. all of them have dead money on the cap of the year following their last year with us..

[Bob806]

9 hours ago, Browns149 said:

I agree. Maybe I didn’t express it that way

This front office is trying to build a team around team first. They are trying to win with a bunch of Joe’s vs a few Bro’s. 
 

Plus the salary cap is going to go up and up in the next 2-3 years. They keep signing guys in that window. 
 

Are they setting this up for a QB free agent?  It sure isn’t going to happen in the draft

The salary cap stuff affects the 32 teams the same obviously. Since the NFL is kind of a "copycat league," the issues with it can create gambling in the front office.

Do you go the Seahawks way? They paid Russell Wilson so much $$ they lost their "legion of boom" D, and their O line has been subpar for awhile- just one example. Teams probably saw that, tried to be smarter. 

Now you have the Rams, basically going "all in," kind of like the mid 90s where Carolina & Jax came into the league. The 2 franchises went two different roster directions, Jax did what you wrote regarding the Browns (paying a bunch of Joe's) while Carolina went all in. Carolina made the Super Bowl quick, but Jax was a contender longer back then. 

This may be a homer take here, but I'm going to trust Andrew Berry on the salary cap stuff. Looks like he may copy the Steelers way ( hurts to write that lol)...Steelers don't seem to fret about losing star players and they remain a contender. 

I'm just glad I'm not a GM. Being a Browns fan is stressful enough!!!

 

 

[Unsympathetic]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

Do you go the Seahawks way? They paid Russell Wilson so much $$ they lost their "legion of boom" D

After Seahawks Super Bowl win vs Denver the Seahawks finally ran out of rollover cap from prior seasons - and had to make tough choices to be able to resign any LOB then-rookie-contract members along with Wilson.  This is an archived article before their 2013 title season started.

It really wasn't the Wilson contract, it was the Houston-Texans-level of stupid spending before the Wilson contract which did them in.  You may have heard they had the most expensive OL during that 2013 year.. along with the 6th worst OL performance..

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, Unsympathetic said:

After Seahawks Super Bowl win vs Denver the Seahawks finally ran out of rollover cap from prior seasons - and had to make tough choices to be able to resign any LOB then-rookie-contract members along with Wilson.  This is an archived article before their 2013 title season started.

It really wasn't the Wilson contract, it was the Houston-Texans-level of stupid spending before the Wilson contract which did them in.  You may have heard they had the most expensive OL during that 2013 year.. along with the 6th worst OL performance..

Ok, didn't realize that. 

[MDDawg]

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

By going 5-2 or 6-1 down the stretch? 

Against the Steelers in Pittsburgh, twice against Baltimore and the Packers in Green Bay on Christmas Day? 

I like your optimism, but that's a tall order. 

How many wins will get a team into the AFC playoffs this year? However, this team is too dependent on the run, any team that figures that out will defeat us as Baker isn't playing well enough to overcome that and our defense sucks.

[nickers]

21 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

How many wins will get a team into the AFC playoffs this year? However, this team is too dependent on the run, any team that figures that out will defeat us as Baker isn't playing well enough to overcome that and our defense sucks.

Our defense doesnt suck... The idiot thats coaching it does...

[SdBacker80]

32 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

How many wins will get a team into the AFC playoffs this year? However, this team is too dependent on the run, any team that figures that out will defeat us as Baker isn't playing well enough to overcome that and our defense sucks.

Aside from benching Harrison and cutting Walker’s snaps in half.  The personnel on the defensive side is more than capable of producing.   
 

 

[MDDawg]

18 minutes ago, nickers said:

Our defense doesnt suck... The idiot thats coaching it does...

Until he's fired, he leads the defense so it sucks till then

[nickers]

31 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

Until he's fired, he leads the defense so it sucks till then

 

 

Well I have a feeling Joe Woods is gonna cost Stefanski his job at seasons end...

[SdBacker80]

26 minutes ago, nickers said:

 

 

Well I have a feeling Joe Woods is gonna cost Stefanski his job at seasons end...

I don’t think the FO is at that point.

Stefanski is a pink slip candidate after 2022-2023 season ….If/when Baker doesn’t perform at a higher level. Kevin may decide to get ahead of that issue this offseason.  We will see.  We are talking about adding/acquiring better WRs but we have a QB issue. And not to let  Stefanski off the hook there is also a play calling issue. 

Woods and the defense got a pass last year because they ran with Sendejo, Robert Jackson, Porter Gustin and Mack Wilson (larger role).  To his credit a Woods defense looks great when they can dominate with the front 4.  When they struggle it’s 47/45/42 points- where’s the adjustment when bringing 4 isn’t working? 

All this is moot if they can salvage this season- players and coaches have work to do (both). 

 

[tiamat63]

37 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

 where’s the adjustment when bringing 4 isn’t working? 

 

 

The TD in man to Hunter Henry against Harrison is about the most of the adjustment you're going to get.  More offenses are going to target Harrison, Delpit and Walker going forward.  Especially in man coverage situations. 

[SdBacker80]

33 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The TD in man to Hunter Henry against Harrison is about the most of the adjustment you're going to get.  More offenses are going to target Harrison, Delpit and Walker going forward.  Especially in man coverage situations. 

My personnel move is Harrison to the bench…but if he’s out there send him after the QB more than what we are doing now.

Woods made a small adjustment last year when he realized Sendejo couldn’t cover. He snuck him to the line more and brought him on a blitz.  Sendejo in space was no good.  Harrison seems to be a similar guy, but I’ve seen his run fills too and those aren’t great either. 
 

The ideal set-up is having 0 personnel flaws.  The reality is having a few.   

 

[BaconHound]

Got crushed. The Browns are mediocre but fan expectations are obviously inflated as they typically are. It has been decades since the Browns went an entire season being competitive and winning a high percentage of games against the good teams in the league.

1 win this year against a team that currently has a winning record.

[tiamat63]

10 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

My personnel move is Harrison to the bench…but if he’s out there send him after the QB more than what we are doing now.

Woods made a small adjustment last year when he realized Sendejo couldn’t cover. He snuck him to the line more and brought him on a blitz.  Sendejo in space was no good.  Harrison seems to be a similar guy, but I’ve seen his run fills too and those aren’t great either. 
 

The ideal set-up is having 0 personnel flaws.  The reality is having a few.   

 

The flip side is now you've given a different method for offenses to attack.  If I know you like bringing Harrison as the 5th man more often then not, I can draw up ways to beat his pressure.  This also likely exposes Walker, Delpit and/or whatever other backer is out there in our nickel packages.  Depit in that type of role doesn't concern me, I suppose. He's held up alright as an additional blitzer and matching up in man. But with Troy Hill now out, your nickel DB is going to be target #1 on defense. 

I'm not saying there isn't ways to help supplement the pass rush and remove Harrison from a position of weakness. But it cuts down on a number of other calls you'd like to make and does something that hasn't worked well to the Browns favor the last 5 years - blitz rate hasn't generated equal success on pressure rate. 

Single high shell looks become a hit or miss issue because that isn't really what Johnny J's game is tailored to.  He can do a bit of everything, but not at the highest of levels. So while we might have the corners, we don't have that elite center fielder.   

If we had average to slightly above level play from Harrison along with the linebackers, it would go a long way to solving issues. 

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The flip side is now you've given a different method for offenses to attack.  If I know you like bringing Harrison as the 5th man more often then not, I can draw up ways to beat his pressure.  This also likely exposes Walker, Delpit and/or whatever other backer is out there in our nickel packages.  Depit in that type of role doesn't concern me, I suppose. He's held up alright as an additional blitzer and matching up in man. But with Troy Hill now out, your nickel DB is going to be target #1 on defense. 

I'm not saying there isn't ways to help supplement the pass rush and remove Harrison from a position of weakness. But it cuts down on a number of other calls you'd like to make and does something that hasn't worked well to the Browns favor the last 5 years - blitz rate hasn't generated equal success on pressure rate. 

Single high shell looks become a hit or miss issue because that isn't really what Johnny J's game is tailored to.  He can do a bit of everything, but not at the highest of levels. So while we might have the corners, we don't have that elite center fielder.   

If we had average to slightly above level play from Harrison along with the linebackers, it would go a long way to solving issues. 

I think I’d tinker with the approach now- or at the very least mix up the looks.   After the countless 3rd and long conversions my solution wouldn’t be Myles beating the chip or double because we are sending just the front 4 and get a sack or a pressure every third down.  
 

Id probably make LeCounte and Fields active this Sunday too.  Maybe some of these guys need other players on their heels   

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

I think I’d tinker with the approach now- or at the very least mix up the looks.   After the countless 3rd and long conversions my solution wouldn’t be Myles beating the chip or double because we are sending just the front 4 and get a sack or a pressure every third down.  
 

Id probably make LeCounte and Fields active this Sunday too.  Maybe some of these guys need other players on their heels   

Asking Myles to draw chips and doubles is a schematic win though.  Because I'm taking an extra body and having to dedicate it to one man.  With chip help I'm taking a fast threat out of the receiving pattern as well.   There are pressures you can send and/or bluff to help make sure that double or chip help has to think, but at the end of the day Myles is an elite pass rusher so those are the headaches you have to deal with.  

 

Speaking of defense, this..... became a big theme during the Browns 2nd drive.

 

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, MDDawg said:

How many wins will get a team into the AFC playoffs this year?.

10 at minimum, possibly/probably 11?

[jiggins7919]

On 11/14/2021 at 6:53 PM, Neo said:

Browns have the second hardest schedule in the NFL. We played a great franchise and got beat. Move on......

I hope you're right, I really do. We need a RT immediately (Cmon Conklin!), some stops on 3rd down, and the WRs to get OPEN. Where was Baker supposed to throw it? Did you guys see anyone open? 

[jiggins7919]

On 11/14/2021 at 7:16 PM, Dutch Oven said:

I've had this nagging feeling at times that this season is a lot like 2019. 

Huge expectations coming into the season, mediocre start, every time it felt like they might be figuring something out, they'd implode. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just never would have imagined what happened...especially after initial drive. On 3rd down, Mac Jones was making unbelievable throws at times. It was weird. Even when coverage was good, we still got beat. We need a WR guys...badly. We can't beat aggressive press-man and we still have Baltimore...twice.

We can't be THAT bad...right? 

[Dutch Oven]

53 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

We can't be THAT bad...right? 

Depends on the week. 

But they haven't done well against decent teams. 

[jrb12711]

10 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I hope you're right, I really do. We need a RT immediately (Cmon Conklin!), some stops on 3rd down, and the WRs to get OPEN. Where was Baker supposed to throw it? Did you guys see anyone open? 

I'll tell you this much, on the 3-4 all 22 aerials they showed during the game there was less than no one open on several occasions. Landry is clearing hurt out there-just tough all around. I definitely think targeting WR is of high priority this off-season. The WR room needs a pretty strong reset button. 

[Neo]

16 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just never would have imagined what happened...especially after initial drive. On 3rd down, Mac Jones was making unbelievable throws at times. It was weird. Even when coverage was good, we still got beat. We need a WR guys...badly. We can't beat aggressive press-man and we still have Baltimore...twice.

We can't be THAT bad...right? 

They cannot put too much thought into this. If you want to change the culture, you just have to tip your hat to a truly great franchise and move on. 

Not making excuses for us but when was the last time we had our full list of starters on the field at the same time and healthy and for more than just a couple games. All the injuries is really taking it's toll. 

 

[jiggins7919]

1 hour ago, Neo said:

Not making excuses for us but when was the last time we had our full list of starters on the field at the same time and healthy and for more than just a couple games. All the injuries is really taking it's toll. 

Get back on track Sunday.