American's Opinion on Ukraine

[Axe]

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/05/10/americans-concerns-about-war-in-ukraine-wider-conflict-possible-u-s-russia-clash/

[Westside Steve]

https://www.aol.com/news/senate-readies-final-congressional-ok-124930165-172404249.html?soc_src=aolapp

 

Even worse  than  just wasting  it.

WSS

[calfoxwc]

choices

A.  let russia force the whole world to fall apart.

B. Arm the Ukraine to stop russia.

C. Ignore the lessons of "not having a confrontation" til it became widespread in Europe, millions of soldiers, civilians and civilians died...(especially the Jews).....

I simply vote "B."

if that doesn't work, the world must confront russia.

[TexasAg1969]

D. Make Russia pay for rebuilding Ukraine.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-19/how-ukraine-can-build-back-better

[Westside Steve]

As long as we can go off the board how about:

E Get into a modern-day Quagmire like Vietnam or years-long occupation and loss of life like Afghanistan. Or just start World War fucking 3 to prop up a shithole and their corrupt "president " so demented POS Joe Biden can pretend he's General Patton.  Just for fun we could start sending troops (we can't call them advisors at first) to go fight and die to defend NATO whom we have to beg just to pay a portion of what they owe for the free defense. That would go a long way toward achieving the Democrats school have completely bankrupting the nation. And I don't mean Russia.

WSS

 

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

I wonder how much of these billions are going into crooked Ukrainian government hands?  

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

16 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

D. Make Russia pay for rebuilding Ukraine.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-04-19/how-ukraine-can-build-back-better

Just how do you intend to do that?  Make them do chores?  And you don't really think this is over do you?  Russians don't give in easily.  The Germans beat the shit out of the Russians in the beginning............

 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

As long as we can go off the board how about:

E Get into a modern-day Quagmire like Vietnam or years-long occupation and loss of life like Afghanistan. Or just start World War fucking 3 to prop up a shithole and their corrupt "president " so demented POS Joe Biden can pretend he's General Patton.  Just for fun we could start sending troops (we can't call them advisors at first) to go fight and die to defend NATO whom we have to beg just to pay a portion of what they owe for the free defense. That would go a long way toward achieving the Democrats school have completely bankrupting the nation. And I don't mean Russia.

WSS

 

you skipped "D" dammit. Now I'm lost. lol

but all those American Soldiers died in WWII because we didn't want to get involved, til the problem

grew into a world wide world war with an entrenched warmongering enemy in control of many countries.

Or, we arm the Ukraine and it stops now. The point is, russia will not stop. If they had been able to take the Ukraine in three days, they would have kept right on going. Poland, Latvia, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc etc. (a few already NATO countries). I'm hard put to think of one major war where the aggressor who started the war simply quit warring after a month or so.

[Westside Steve]

56 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

you skipped "D" dammit. Now I'm lost. lol

but all those American Soldiers died in WWII because we didn't want to get involved, til the problem

grew into a world wide world war with an entrenched warmongering enemy in control of many countries.

Or, we arm the Ukraine and it stops now. The point is, russia will not stop. If they had been able to take the Ukraine in three days, they would have kept right on going. Poland, Latvia, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc etc. (a few already NATO countries). I'm hard put to think of one major war where the aggressor who started the war simply quit warring after a month or so.

I did not. Tex added his own. Mine was next in line.

Hey at least if we get into another NeverEnding useless overseas War Liz Cheney will be happy.

WSS

[hammertime]

1 hour ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said:

I wonder how much of these billions are going into crooked Ukrainian government hands?  

It’s not helping anybody, but it is lining someone’s pockets.

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said:

Just how do you intend to do that?  Make them do chores?  And you don't really think this is over do you?  Russians don't give in easily.  The Germans beat the shit out of the Russians in the beginning............

Maybe read the article. Might improve your comprehension. 🤣 Precedent was set by making Iraq pay for Kuwait damage through frozen assets.

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Maybe read the article. Might improve your comprehension. 🤣 Precedent was set by making Iraq pay for Kuwait damage through frozen assets.

I read the article.  They have already frozen their assets.  Putin don't give a damn.

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I did not. Tex added his own. Mine was next in line.

Hey at least if we get into another NeverEnding useless overseas War Liz Cheney will be happy.

WSS

oh, sorry - I don't read Tex's stuff. same old "whatever nonsense" style, unless I missed a few

posts that were actually sincere.....

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

oh, sorry - I don't read Tex's stuff. same old "whatever nonsense" style, unless I missed a few

posts that were actually sincere.....

You missed the one above which is in agreement with you and a method of getting the money from Russia's frozen assets to pay for rebuilding Ukraine.

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

You missed the one above which is in agreement with you and a method of getting the money from Russia's frozen assets to pay for rebuilding Ukraine.

That will work. Tell Zalensky just to turn over the keys and Russia will fix the place up when they moved back in.

WSS

[TexasAg1969]

8 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

you skipped "D" dammit. Now I'm lost. lol

but all those American Soldiers died in WWII because we didn't want to get involved, til the problem

grew into a world wide world war with an entrenched warmongering enemy in control of many countries.

Or, we arm the Ukraine and it stops now. The point is, russia will not stop. If they had been able to take the Ukraine in three days, they would have kept right on going. Poland, Latvia, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc etc. (a few already NATO countries). I'm hard put to think of one major war where the aggressor who started the war simply quit warring after a month or so.

You present a lot of good points. Hard to believe the echo chamber here does not seem to buy it as usual.

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

 

[Gorka]

What people don't understand about a "corrupt" Ukraine is that when the Soviet Union broke up, Russia didn't simply say "bye bye Ukraine, you guys have a nice country". Ukraine was a vital asset to Russia economically and strategically.

Much of the corruption involve those loyal to Russia who remained as operatives in government and business pretending to be Ukrainians. What Russia could have said after the breakup as it pertains to Ukraine was "I'll be back".

[mjp28]

I have yet to actually hear or see a good faith estimate of what it's going to cost "fix Ukraine ".

This is part a WWII style tank and artillery war and 21st century satellite,  drone,  million plus dollar super missiles and other high tech toys. All designed to take out cities block by block, item by item.  And to completely rebuild a steel facility maybe hundreds and hundreds of billions right there.

And the other infrastructure electrical,  oil tanks, roads, bridges,  rail lines and residential buildings x ??? .

A trillion ?  Several trillions  ?  What did we spend in the Gulf wars ?  Iraq ? Afghanistan  ?  In trillions.  And our national debt, I don't even hear people talking about that anymore.  It's scary !

Selling a few hundred billions in boats, property,  liquid assets will raise how much in this recent downturn in the economy. 

SO the bill for rebuilding an entire country and economy is what  ?   You can use rounding if you want.    

[FairHooker11]

i thought that if zelensky was willing to follow through on his admission to trump

(possibly) during that "perfect" phone call in 2019 - to help with any investigation into corruption by then 

(81 million voters favorite) Joe biden...

He wouldve done so by now - except that he would implicate himself, or at least his country 

into its long history of money laundering and other nefarious deeds. 

stick that onto your "Im with the Ukraine"  virtue signal. 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

42 minutes ago, FairHooker11 said:

i thought that if zelensky was willing to follow through on his admission to trump

(possibly) during that "perfect" phone call in 2019 - to help with any investigation into corruption by then 

(81 million voters favorite) Joe biden...

He wouldve done so by now - except that he would implicate himself, or at least his country 

into its long history of money laundering and other nefarious deeds. 

stick that onto your "Im with the Ukraine"  virtue signal. 

 

 

Quid pro quo.

Hunter investigation goes under the rug and Joe funnels billions into his pocket.

WSS

[Gorka]

15 hours ago, mjp28 said:

I have yet to actually hear or see a good faith estimate of what it's going to cost "fix Ukraine ".

This is part a WWII style tank and artillery war and 21st century satellite,  drone,  million plus dollar super missiles and other high tech toys. All designed to take out cities block by block, item by item.  And to completely rebuild a steel facility maybe hundreds and hundreds of billions right there.

And the other infrastructure electrical,  oil tanks, roads, bridges,  rail lines and residential buildings x ??? .

A trillion ?  Several trillions  ?  What did we spend in the Gulf wa4s ?  Iraq ? Afghanistan  ?  In trillions.  And our national debt, I don't even hear people talking about that anymore.  It's scary !

Selling a few hundred billions in boats, property,  liquid assets will raise how much in this recent downturn in the economy. 

SO the bill for rebuilding an entire country and economy is what  ?   You can use rounding if you want.    

You are Ukrainian. How do you see this ending? 

[mjp28]

On 5/21/2022 at 8:41 PM, Gorka said:

You are Ukrainian. How do you see this ending? 

Maybe very slowly until maybe something dramatic and possibly unexpected happens  -but-  when you're dealing with the Russians historically over this past century and centuries before that it might almost take a mass uprising.  But this is 2022 not 1910ish, things are different,  society is different,  the media and internet is vastly different. 

This Russian War is barely months old and it's kind of nearing a stalemate......for the moment.  Both sides are pounding each other with modern weapons no WWI style months or years long trench warfare. ( I'm a big WWII junkie I watch everything about it and right up today's military. )  This isn't exactly Stalin/Churchill/FDR it is just different. 

We're down to the mind of Vladimir Putin he wanted this war and got it.  He believed they'd be in Kiev in 2 or 3 days that never happened.   He didn't plan, provision or prepare his side for what he got.

Bottom line Putin and the entire world vastly underestimated the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people. Putin believed that NATO would do what they always do....nothing.

Europe distrusted the USSR and Russia and backed Ukraine immediately especially Great Britain followed by the arsenal of democracy the United States. 

As long as the Ukrainians can hold out they have a chance.  Unfortunately they are destroying the Ukraine. 

More later including my grandfather's exodus from Kiev. 

 

[TexasAg1969]

Interestingly enough a Russian diplomat in Geneva has resigned over Putin's War, which he strongly disagrees with.

https://www.newsmax.com/headline/russian-diplomat-resigns-ukraine/2022/05/23/id/1071031/?ns_mail_uid=6d52df85-236f-4a8f-8332-d84fdb5d6ebf&ns_mail_job=DM336116_05232022&s=acs&dkt_nbr=010102b4sc8m

"I started to imagine this a few years ago, but the scale of this disaster drove me to do it," he said, referring to Russia's invasion of Ukraine that began on Feb. 24.

He said he had raised his concerns about the invasion with senior embassy staff several times. "I was told to keep my mouth shut in order to avoid ramifications," he said.

[mjp28]

I saw today on the news where at a concert in Russia the audience broke out in a loud  "F*** the war"  chant.  The people know Putin is a major theif  -but-  they individually don't want to end up in a  Russian prison for 15 years  for saying so.

Concert protests against the war, reminds me of the 1970s.  🇺🇦 

[Gorka]

4 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Maybe very slowly until maybe something dramatic and possibly unexpected happens  -but-  when you're dealing with the Russians historically over this past century and centuries before that it might almost take a mass uprising.  But this is 2022 not 1910ish, things are different,  society is different,  the media and internet is vastly different. 

This Russian War is barely months old and it's kind of nearing a stalemate......for the moment.  Both sides are pounding each other with modern weapons no WWI style months or years long trench warfare. ( I'm a big WWII junkie I watch everything about it and right up today's military. )  This isn't exactly Stalin/Churchill/FDR it is just different. 

We're down to the mind of Vladimir Putin he wanted this war and got it.  He believed they'd be in Kiev in 2 or 3 days that never happened.   He didn't plan, provision or prepare his side for what he got.

Bottom line Putin and the entire world vastly underestimated the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people. Putin believed that NATO would do what they always do....nothing.

Europe distrusted the USSR and Russia and backed Ukraine immediately especially Great Britain followed by the arsenal of democracy the United States. 

As long as the Ukrainians can hold out they have a chance.  Unfortunately they are destroying the Ukraine. 

More later including my grandfather's exodus from Kiev. 

 

 

I'm not exactly a WWII junky, but I do love history.

Sad thing that few are aware of is that Ukraine throughout it's history has been under constant attack from all sides. The Russians, Turks, Poles. Stalin starved to death millions. Amazing that Ukraine exists.

This gave rise Cossacks, or Kozaks who were a badass bunch...with those shaved heads leaving only "pony tails". They were wearing baggy pants and break dancing long before MC Hammer, didn't rap though lol.

The late great Yul Brenner played the part of Taras Bulba, the leader of the Ukrainian Cossacks. The that movie setting was during the war with the Polocks I believe.

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Maybe very slowly until maybe something dramatic and possibly unexpected happens  -but-  when you're dealing with the Russians historically over this past century and centuries before that it might almost take a mass uprising.  But this is 2022 not 1910ish, things are different,  society is different,  the media and internet is vastly different. 

This Russian War is barely months old and it's kind of nearing a stalemate......for the moment.  Both sides are pounding each other with modern weapons no WWI style months or years long trench warfare. ( I'm a big WWII junkie I watch everything about it and right up today's military. )  This isn't exactly Stalin/Churchill/FDR it is just different. 

We're down to the mind of Vladimir Putin he wanted this war and got it.  He believed they'd be in Kiev in 2 or 3 days that never happened.   He didn't plan, provision or prepare his side for what he got.

Bottom line Putin and the entire world vastly underestimated the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people. Putin believed that NATO would do what they always do....nothing.

Europe distrusted the USSR and Russia and backed Ukraine immediately especially Great Britain followed by the arsenal of democracy the United States. 

As long as the Ukrainians can hold out they have a chance.  Unfortunately they are destroying the Ukraine. 

More later including my grandfather's exodus from Kiev. 

 

I worked with several guys who had emigrated from the Ukraine in my working years at Reilly Chemical in Cleveland mjp.  I well know the prevailing sentiment of folks from that country about Russians.  Have to wonder if Putin is nuts.  If he wins, it's going to be a classic pyrrhic victory with the territory he "won" in ruins, and Russia bankrupted in the process.  

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

Too bad the Ukrainian government is sucking our money and corrupt government officials are lining their pockets (Ukrainian).  40 billion is over the top in my opinion.  Let Europe fucking fund the thing if they are so concerned.

[hoorta]

14 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said:

Too bad the Ukrainian government is sucking our money and corrupt government officials are lining their pockets (Ukrainian).  40 billion is over the top in my opinion.  Let Europe fucking fund the thing if they are so concerned.

SMH... Lining their pockets with exactly what DH?  Sort of hard to pocket howitzers, missiles, and a 100 million or so rounds of ammunition. Your it's NIMBY attitude is pretty short sighted. Just MHO.  If you don't think (or realize) it's pretty obvious Putin is on a mission to reconstruct the USSR. He won't stop at Ukraine- that's more than enough reason for YOU to be concerned. AND VP is nuts. He's in the process of bankrupting Russia with his expansionist war. They're only #11 in the world in GDP, four European nations rank higher in that regard. 

In case you missed it... France has kicked in $1.7 billion to Ukraine so far. If you want to talk about our southern border crisis.. Poland- with a population of around 37 million has taken in around 3 million Ukrainian refugees... Scale that one up to 30 million in the USA in a couple months. 

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

Well, they are neighbors of Ukraine.  We are not.  Do you think all of the aid is only military equipment?  Bullshit.  Nimbly attitude my ass.  France kicked in 1.7 billion.  How many tens of billions have we?  How about Germany?  The netherlands?  Finland?  Italy?  Etc.?