Browns Fans: Why We Are Here!

[Flugel]

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there...  That's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  In fact, it takes a special breed of character and loyalty that is admirable considering how often those traits get battle-tested over the years.  

Most recently, the Browns have taken a gigantic risk that could bring an enormous reward for doing so.  Or, it could end up recruiting more critics and frustrated fans here.  I will confess to being a bigtime Baker hopeful pre and post draft (with Sam Darnold as my 1B option).  Baker started for our 11-5 team that won a playoff game AT Pittsburgh with 48 points on the scoreboard as recently as January of 2021.  Now they're both on the same team, which has some talent he can be successful with inclusive of the top LT in the draft, DJ Moore, and Christian McCaffrey. The year before that I wanted us to draft DeShaun Watson, who last played in 2020 - leading Houston to a 4-12 season.  That said, he had killer good passing numbers in spite of that finishing with the #2 passer rating in the NFL (only behind Aaron Rodgers).  I'm one that did not like the way our Owner and FO went about upgrading our talent at QB within 1 year of exercising the previous QB's 5th year option.  Watson has already achieved elite numbers so it IS an upgrade we really need here. That said, we're now in the midst of tug-of-wars about which QB has more baggage as we await how long our new QB will be suspended.

I was raised in Western NY about 4 hours east of Cleveland where there was 4-5 different Browns Backers clubs when I moved to TN in 2006.  Otto Graham played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals the year they won the Championship while we all know Jim Brown and Ernie Davis played college ball at Syracuse.  If that wasn't enough, the 1st 10 years the Cleveland Browns existed - they made the Championship Games every year winning 7 of those (the last 6 games were in the NFL where they won 3 in that span). The Browns won their last Championship in 1964 while your buddy Flugel was still shitting diapers; and giving his dad the "I hope it stinks" look. As time went on, my dad started putting up large antenna's on the house that enabled us to watch games that weren't locally televised.   It also progressed to my dad's superstition making me and my brother change what chairs we were sitting in to change the bad luck on the TV.   It had a Silver Linings Playbook vibe to it - although the only one that did any gambling was my brother. Made dad usually took us to 1 home game per year in Cleveland; and if they ever came to Buffalo - we'd be there to watch them as well.

Ultimately, we reached the 80s which became the decade in the Superbowl era the Browns made the playoffs most frequently.  They accomplished such a feat with my 2 favorite QBs as a Cleveland fan:  Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar.  I would have loved to watch Otto Graham lead the Browns to the Championship Games in all 10 years of his Pro Football career in Cleveland.  I also would have loved to watch Jim Brown play.  One of the most exciting RBs I've been able to watch was Greg Pruitt (my avatar), who could score from anywhere on the field.  Injuries prevented him from having a long career.  I've always enjoyed the RB/FB tradition in Cleveland with guys like Marion Motley, Jim Brown, Bobby Mitchell, Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, Mike Pruitt, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner, Leroy Hoard, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, etc...  While 13th round pick Brian Sipe was the only QB the Browns drafted that earned an NFL MVP honor in the Superbowl era - Bernie Kosar was the only 1st round QB the Browns drafted (albeit the Supplemental Draft) that took us to the AFC Championship Games.  I'm not sure Watson can ever make me feel like I felt about Sipe and Kosar; but you never now what we will learn in the future that may change/challenge that thought.

So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

[mjp28]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there... ..  Good.

.......I was raised in Western NY about 4 hours east of Cleveland where there was 4-5 different Browns Backers clubs when I moved to TN in 2006.  Otto Graham played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals the year they won the Championship while we all know Jim Brown and Ernie Davis played college ball at Syracuse.  If that wasn't enough, the 1st 10 years the Cleveland Browns existed - they made the Championship Games every year winning 7 of those (the last 6 games were in the NFL where they won 3 in that span). The Browns won their last Championship in 1964 while your buddy Flugel was still shitting diapers; and giving his dad the "I hope it stinks" look. As time went on, my dad started putting up large antenna's on the house that enabled us to watch games that weren't locally televised.   It also progressed to my dad's superstition making me and my brother change what chairs we were sitting in to change the bad luck on the TV.   It had a Silver Linings Playbook vibe to it - although the only one that did any gambling was my brother. Made dad usually took us to 1 home game per year in Cleveland; and if they ever came to Buffalo - we'd be there to watch them as well.

Ultimately, we reached the 80s which became the decade in the Superbowl era the Browns made the playoffs most frequently.  They accomplished such a feat with my 2 favorite QBs as a Cleveland fan:  Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar.  I would have loved to watch Otto Graham lead the Browns to the Championship Games in all 10 years of his Pro Football career in Cleveland.  I also would have loved to watch Jim Brown play.  One of the most exciting RBs I've been able to watch was Greg Pruitt (my avatar), who could score from anywhere on the field.  Injuries prevented him from having a long career.  I've always enjoyed the RB/FB tradition in Cleveland with guys like Marion Motley, Jim Brown, Bobby Mitchell, Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, Mike Pruitt, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner, Leroy Hoard, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, etc...  While 13th round pick Brian Sipe was the only QB the Browns drafted that earned an NFL MVP honor in the Superbowl era - Bernie Kosar was the only 1st round QB the Browns drafted (albeit the Supplemental Draft) that took us to the AFC Championship Games.  I'm not sure Watson can ever make me feel like I felt about Sipe and Kosar; but you never now what we will learn in the future that may change/challenge that thought.

So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

Well Flugs that sure explains a lot !    There were/are many Cleveland BROWNS fans from that Ashtabula,  Erie, W.PA, W.NY area.  I believe that there were a few more media outlets up that way also. 

GO BROWNS !

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there...  That's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  In fact, it takes a special breed of character and loyalty that is admirable considering how often those traits get battle-tested over the years.  

Most recently, the Browns have taken a gigantic risk that could bring an enormous reward for doing so.  Or, it could end up recruiting more critics and frustrated fans here.  I will confess to being a bigtime Baker hopeful pre and post draft (with Sam Darnold as my 1B option).  Baker started for our 11-5 team that won a playoff game AT Pittsburgh with 48 points on the scoreboard as recently as January of 2021.  Now they're both on the same team, which has some talent he can be successful with inclusive of the top LT in the draft, DJ Moore, and Christian McCaffrey. The year before that I wanted us to draft DeShaun Watson, who last played in 2020 - leading Houston to a 4-12 season.  That said, he had killer good passing numbers in spite of that finishing with the #2 passer rating in the NFL (only behind Aaron Rodgers).  I'm one that did not like the way our Owner and FO went about upgrading our talent at QB within 1 year of exercising the previous QB's 5th year option.  Watson has already achieved elite numbers so it IS an upgrade we really need here. That said, we're now in the midst of tug-of-wars about which QB has more baggage as we await how long our new QB will be suspended.

I was raised in Western NY about 4 hours east of Cleveland where there was 4-5 different Browns Backers clubs when I moved to TN in 2006.  Otto Graham played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals the year they won the Championship while we all know Jim Brown and Ernie Davis played college ball at Syracuse.  If that wasn't enough, the 1st 10 years the Cleveland Browns existed - they made the Championship Games every year winning 7 of those (the last 6 games were in the NFL where they won 3 in that span). The Browns won their last Championship in 1964 while your buddy Flugel was still shitting diapers; and giving his dad the "I hope it stinks" look. As time went on, my dad started putting up large antenna's on the house that enabled us to watch games that weren't locally televised.   It also progressed to my dad's superstition making me and my brother change what chairs we were sitting in to change the bad luck on the TV.   It had a Silver Linings Playbook vibe to it - although the only one that did any gambling was my brother. Made dad usually took us to 1 home game per year in Cleveland; and if they ever came to Buffalo - we'd be there to watch them as well.

Ultimately, we reached the 80s which became the decade in the Superbowl era the Browns made the playoffs most frequently.  They accomplished such a feat with my 2 favorite QBs as a Cleveland fan:  Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar.  I would have loved to watch Otto Graham lead the Browns to the Championship Games in all 10 years of his Pro Football career in Cleveland.  I also would have loved to watch Jim Brown play.  One of the most exciting RBs I've been able to watch was Greg Pruitt (my avatar), who could score from anywhere on the field.  Injuries prevented him from having a long career.  I've always enjoyed the RB/FB tradition in Cleveland with guys like Marion Motley, Jim Brown, Bobby Mitchell, Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, Mike Pruitt, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner, Leroy Hoard, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, etc...  While 13th round pick Brian Sipe was the only QB the Browns drafted that earned an NFL MVP honor in the Superbowl era - Bernie Kosar was the only 1st round QB the Browns drafted (albeit the Supplemental Draft) that took us to the AFC Championship Games.  I'm not sure Watson can ever make me feel like I felt about Sipe and Kosar; but you never now what we will learn in the future that may change/challenge that thought.

So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

Even after all that... I still think Haslam is pure trash.. And so are Depudpuller and Berry Al Shabbaz..

[mjp28]

31 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Well Flugs that sure explains a lot !    There were/are many Cleveland BROWNS fans from that Ashtabula,  Erie, W.PA, W.NY area.  I believe that there were a few more media outlets up that way also. 

GO BROWNS !

And the current outside Ohio networks that's it used to be more including WVA.....

 

Outside Ohio

• WRIE-AM: Erie, PA - AM 1260
• WRIE-FM: Erie, PA - 96.3 FM
• WKSN-AM: Jamestown, NY - AM 1340

[Bob806]

Well said.

I'm here because I root for the Browns (since 1970) even though it's been maddening since the move. 

Pictured below are my stadium seats on my patio...#13 was my badge number at the BFD & #34 was for Greg Pruitt, one of my all time Browns favorites as well. I was at the game in 1973 when Pruitt scored on a TD run vs the Steelers in the mud to win the game 21-16 (around a 20 yard run, tear away jersey in tow lol). 

Yeah, Haslam sucks. I know he's trying so hard to make the Browns a winner.  It just seems he reaches too many times. I still think the Manziel reach was far worse than this DW mess, as it blew up & we ended up losing Kyle Shanahan, Pettine, you name it. Time will tell on the DW thing.

The Browns IMHO should be decent this season as long as Brissett doesn't turn it over a bunch. 

Go Browns & WOOF.

[mjp28]

34 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Well said.

I'm here because I root for the Browns (since 1970) even though it's been maddening since the move. 

Pictured below are my stadium seats on my patio...#13 was my badge number at the BFD & #34 was for Greg Pruitt, one of my all time Browns favorites as well. I was at the game in 1973 when Pruitt scored on a TD run vs the Steelers in the mud to win the game 21-16 (around a 20 yard run, tear away jersey in tow lol). 

Yeah, Haslam sucks. I know he's trying so hard to make the Browns a winner.  It just seems he reaches too many times. I still think the Manziel reach was far worse than this DW mess, as it blew up & we ended up losing Kyle Shanahan, Pettine, you name it. Time will tell on the DW thing.

The Browns IMHO should be decent this season as long as Brissett doesn't turn it over a bunch. 

Go Browns & WOOF.

My wife likes your outdoor oasis.....she's the same way with her herb garden, tomatoes, bushes,  flowers and more.  Our two live-in chipmunks love it too.   And I love our covered deck with TV.   GO BROWNS  !

[lodilobo]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:06 AM, Flugel said:

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there...  That's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  In fact, it takes a special breed of character and loyalty that is admirable considering how often those traits get battle-tested over the years.  

Most recently, the Browns have taken a gigantic risk that could bring an enormous reward for doing so.  Or, it could end up recruiting more critics and frustrated fans here.  I will confess to being a bigtime Baker hopeful pre and post draft (with Sam Darnold as my 1B option).  Baker started for our 11-5 team that won a playoff game AT Pittsburgh with 48 points on the scoreboard as recently as January of 2021.  Now they're both on the same team, which has some talent he can be successful with inclusive of the top LT in the draft, DJ Moore, and Christian McCaffrey. The year before that I wanted us to draft DeShaun Watson, who last played in 2020 - leading Houston to a 4-12 season.  That said, he had killer good passing numbers in spite of that finishing with the #2 passer rating in the NFL (only behind Aaron Rodgers).  I'm one that did not like the way our Owner and FO went about upgrading our talent at QB within 1 year of exercising the previous QB's 5th year option.  Watson has already achieved elite numbers so it IS an upgrade we really need here. That said, we're now in the midst of tug-of-wars about which QB has more baggage as we await how long our new QB will be suspended.

I was raised in Western NY about 4 hours east of Cleveland where there was 4-5 different Browns Backers clubs when I moved to TN in 2006.  Otto Graham played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals the year they won the Championship while we all know Jim Brown and Ernie Davis played college ball at Syracuse.  If that wasn't enough, the 1st 10 years the Cleveland Browns existed - they made the Championship Games every year winning 7 of those (the last 6 games were in the NFL where they won 3 in that span). The Browns won their last Championship in 1964 while your buddy Flugel was still shitting diapers; and giving his dad the "I hope it stinks" look. As time went on, my dad started putting up large antenna's on the house that enabled us to watch games that weren't locally televised.   It also progressed to my dad's superstition making me and my brother change what chairs we were sitting in to change the bad luck on the TV.   It had a Silver Linings Playbook vibe to it - although the only one that did any gambling was my brother. Made dad usually took us to 1 home game per year in Cleveland; and if they ever came to Buffalo - we'd be there to watch them as well.

Ultimately, we reached the 80s which became the decade in the Superbowl era the Browns made the playoffs most frequently.  They accomplished such a feat with my 2 favorite QBs as a Cleveland fan:  Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar.  I would have loved to watch Otto Graham lead the Browns to the Championship Games in all 10 years of his Pro Football career in Cleveland.  I also would have loved to watch Jim Brown play.  One of the most exciting RBs I've been able to watch was Greg Pruitt (my avatar), who could score from anywhere on the field.  Injuries prevented him from having a long career.  I've always enjoyed the RB/FB tradition in Cleveland with guys like Marion Motley, Jim Brown, Bobby Mitchell, Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, Mike Pruitt, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner, Leroy Hoard, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, etc...  While 13th round pick Brian Sipe was the only QB the Browns drafted that earned an NFL MVP honor in the Superbowl era - Bernie Kosar was the only 1st round QB the Browns drafted (albeit the Supplemental Draft) that took us to the AFC Championship Games.  I'm not sure Watson can ever make me feel like I felt about Sipe and Kosar; but you never now what we will learn in the future that may change/challenge that thought.

So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

In 1964, I was listening to the Championship game on my 3 transistor pocket radio, that required a small earphone. I've been through all the crap.....Bellichik... the team leaving.... losing season after losing season...But this fiasco has pushed me beyond my limits. It's not so much the Mayfield thing. It's more the Watson thing. I find myself hoping he's suspended for the season, then hoping he sucks in 2023. I'm not rooting for him. Not now, not ever. Personally, I hope Haslam has to pay him every penny, and that he never plays a down for the Browns. Watson wanted no part of the Browns...until they offered him $230 million, guaranteed. Yes...there were several other teams interested in him, but not at that price, and not for 3 first round picks. No matter what you Watson lovers say....he is not a top 5 qb. He had outstanding stats for 2020, with only winning 4 games. Statistics are for losers. Just when the Cleveland Browns were starting to gain a little respect around the NFL, dumbass Haslam, with one stupid decision, puts us right back as the laughing stock of all sports franchises.  

 

 

[mjp28]

4 hours ago, lodilobo said:

In 1964, I was listening to the Championship game on my 3 transistor pocket radio, that required a small earphone. I've been through all the crap.....Bellichik... the team leaving.... losing season after losing season...But this fiasco has pushed me beyond my limits......after all of that you should be a pretty tough BROWNS fan.....but  I won't  judge that.

It's not so much the Mayfield thing. It's more the Watson thing. I find myself hoping he's suspended for the season, then hoping he sucks in 2023. I'm not rooting for him. Not now, not ever.......you are not alone there.

Personally, I hope Haslam has to pay him every penny, and that he never plays a down for the Browns. Watson wanted no part of the Browns...until they offered him $230 million, guaranteed. Yes...there were several other teams interested in him, but not at that price, and not for 3 first round picks. No matter what you Watson lovers say....he is not a top 5 qb. He had outstanding stats for 2020, with only winning 4 games. Statistics are for losers. Just when the Cleveland Browns were starting to gain a little respect around the NFL, dumbass Haslam, with one stupid decision, puts us right back as the laughing stock of all sports franchises.  

 

 

Somehow I think you will stick around just out of curiosity if nothing else. 

And I like your 3 transistor radio thing with the earphone.  In 1963 I got a Summit 8 transistor radio and a plug in power supply,  NO batteries  !  Hours of fun.  Were you into amateur radio, I started around 1961 or 1962.  Years of fun there e too.  See you around.  mjp.

[Canton Dawg]

5 hours ago, lodilobo said:

In 1964, I was listening to the Championship game on my 3 transistor pocket radio, that required a small earphone. I've been through all the crap.....Bellichik... the team leaving.... losing season after losing season...But this fiasco has pushed me beyond my limits. It's not so much the Mayfield thing. It's more the Watson thing. I find myself hoping he's suspended for the season, then hoping he sucks in 2023. I'm not rooting for him. Not now, not ever. Personally, I hope Haslam has to pay him every penny, and that he never plays a down for the Browns. Watson wanted no part of the Browns...until they offered him $230 million, guaranteed. Yes...there were several other teams interested in him, but not at that price, and not for 3 first round picks. No matter what you Watson lovers say....he is not a top 5 qb. He had outstanding stats for 2020, with only winning 4 games. Statistics are for losers. Just when the Cleveland Browns were starting to gain a little respect around the NFL, dumbass Haslam, with one stupid decision, puts us right back as the laughing stock of all sports franchises.  

 

 

Every circus needs a clown…too bad ours owns the team.

[Riffer X]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:22 PM, Bob806 said:

Well said.

I'm here because I root for the Browns (since 1970) even though it's been maddening since the move. 

Pictured below are my stadium seats on my patio...#13 was my badge number at the BFD & #34 was for Greg Pruitt, one of my all time Browns favorites as well. I was at the game in 1973 when Pruitt scored on a TD run vs the Steelers in the mud to win the game 21-16 (around a 20 yard run, tear away jersey in tow lol). 

Yeah, Haslam sucks. I know he's trying so hard to make the Browns a winner.  It just seems he reaches too many times. I still think the Manziel reach was far worse than this DW mess, as it blew up & we ended up losing Kyle Shanahan, Pettine, you name it. Time will tell on the DW thing.

The Browns IMHO should be decent this season as long as Brissett doesn't turn it over a bunch. 

Go Browns & WOOF.

That's pretty awesome, Bob.

[Riffer X]

NFLN had both The Drive and The Fumble on the other day, and I watched them from beginning to end. It was a film review and a bit different than other telecasts I have seen over the years, but I was mesmerized the entire time.

There were great interviews with players like Mecklenburg and Mike Johnson, awesome sideline banter and film of the players mic'd up, killer slow motion replay views and an overall crowd intensity from both stadiums that I don't know has ever been matched. Two teams that bitterly wanted to win and flat out didn't like each other, although there was great respect as well. Both radio teams were used along with Enberg and Olsen, even though the Denver guy sounded so much like Gib Shanley that it confused me at times since we had Nev.

A different era of football and quite frankly my favorite era. Even though we lost those games, they still bring back fond memories for me of a time when football was just football and it was beautiful, physical and intense. 

And a "what if" from that (besides the Byner fumble) would be -- what if Mark Harper or Felix made the tackle on Mark Jackson in Mile High?

For years I pretty much thought that Denver would have easily drove to win the game in regulation, but not so much anymore. Denver had periods in that game where they didn't execute, or the Browns did their jobs on D. Even the long Mark Jackson TD to temporarily stave off the Browns' comeback should have been a 3 and out, but Mark Harper missed an easy tackle and Felix got juked because he took a bad angle. Denver was punting it away and puckered tight if Harper makes the tackle short of the first down like he should have. A great play by Jackson, though, so credit where it's due.

Denver puckered at times in that game so there is no guarantee they drive at will, let alone make the FG imo.

I actually prefer watching The Fumble telecast even though it is in Denver. Reason is the Browns came storming back and were really kicking Denver's azz after spotting them 14 easy points off stupid turnovers (Mack fumble and pick from Slaughter bobble). Mack and Byner were gashing and Bernie was dealing, it was sweet as hell. I really thought the Browns were the better team that day, but I also thought they were better the year before, too.

The Drive was just a sloppily played game by the Browns and they shot themselves in the foot. Mack fumbled away a drive and Bernie made some bad decisions. Just too many missed opportunities to put them away and then everything had to go absolutely perfect on that last drive for Denver. Another big issue in that game was that Slaughter left early due to being injured, so that hindered the passing game even more. But the Browns made way too many mistakes. Should have been about 30-10 imo.

But obviously the focus on The Drive was the drive itself, whereas the focus on The Fumble was the Browns comeback.

[Riffer X]

Not a bad read here by Tones believe it or not.

Baker Mayfield Was One Of A Kind And Deserves A Lofty Spot In Browns History

It was appropriate referencing his relationship with Mayfield because it was a part of Baker's public legacy here, imo.

I don't think it has resonated with people yet where Baker ranks in team history, regardless of if they are "Baker Bros" or "Thank Gawd He's Gone!!" types. Taking the new era stats into account, he still ranks pretty highly considering he was only here for 4 years. These are just stats but winning the first road playoff game since 1969 and beating Pitt to do so will be looked back fondly in years to come.

-- 1st in completion %

-- 2nd in QB rating (per Football Reference -- behind Milt Plum)

-- 2nd in interception %

-- 4th in yards passing or 3rd if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in TDs or 4th if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in AV but would be 6th if Otto had an AV. AV is Approximate Value

-- 7th in wins if I am calculating this correctly

Cleveland Browns Career Passing Leaders

[FY56]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:06 AM, Flugel said:

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there...  That's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  In fact, it takes a special breed of character and loyalty that is admirable considering how often those traits get battle-tested over the years.  

Most recently, the Browns have taken a gigantic risk that could bring an enormous reward for doing so.  Or, it could end up recruiting more critics and frustrated fans here.  I will confess to being a bigtime Baker hopeful pre and post draft (with Sam Darnold as my 1B option).  Baker started for our 11-5 team that won a playoff game AT Pittsburgh with 48 points on the scoreboard as recently as January of 2021.  Now they're both on the same team, which has some talent he can be successful with inclusive of the top LT in the draft, DJ Moore, and Christian McCaffrey. The year before that I wanted us to draft DeShaun Watson, who last played in 2020 - leading Houston to a 4-12 season.  That said, he had killer good passing numbers in spite of that finishing with the #2 passer rating in the NFL (only behind Aaron Rodgers).  I'm one that did not like the way our Owner and FO went about upgrading our talent at QB within 1 year of exercising the previous QB's 5th year option.  Watson has already achieved elite numbers so it IS an upgrade we really need here. That said, we're now in the midst of tug-of-wars about which QB has more baggage as we await how long our new QB will be suspended.

I was raised in Western NY about 4 hours east of Cleveland where there was 4-5 different Browns Backers clubs when I moved to TN in 2006.  Otto Graham played Pro Basketball for the Rochester Royals the year they won the Championship while we all know Jim Brown and Ernie Davis played college ball at Syracuse.  If that wasn't enough, the 1st 10 years the Cleveland Browns existed - they made the Championship Games every year winning 7 of those (the last 6 games were in the NFL where they won 3 in that span). The Browns won their last Championship in 1964 while your buddy Flugel was still shitting diapers; and giving his dad the "I hope it stinks" look. As time went on, my dad started putting up large antenna's on the house that enabled us to watch games that weren't locally televised.   It also progressed to my dad's superstition making me and my brother change what chairs we were sitting in to change the bad luck on the TV.   It had a Silver Linings Playbook vibe to it - although the only one that did any gambling was my brother. Made dad usually took us to 1 home game per year in Cleveland; and if they ever came to Buffalo - we'd be there to watch them as well.

Ultimately, we reached the 80s which became the decade in the Superbowl era the Browns made the playoffs most frequently.  They accomplished such a feat with my 2 favorite QBs as a Cleveland fan:  Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar.  I would have loved to watch Otto Graham lead the Browns to the Championship Games in all 10 years of his Pro Football career in Cleveland.  I also would have loved to watch Jim Brown play.  One of the most exciting RBs I've been able to watch was Greg Pruitt (my avatar), who could score from anywhere on the field.  Injuries prevented him from having a long career.  I've always enjoyed the RB/FB tradition in Cleveland with guys like Marion Motley, Jim Brown, Bobby Mitchell, Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, Mike Pruitt, Kevin Mack, Earnest Byner, Leroy Hoard, Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, etc...  While 13th round pick Brian Sipe was the only QB the Browns drafted that earned an NFL MVP honor in the Superbowl era - Bernie Kosar was the only 1st round QB the Browns drafted (albeit the Supplemental Draft) that took us to the AFC Championship Games.  I'm not sure Watson can ever make me feel like I felt about Sipe and Kosar; but you never now what we will learn in the future that may change/challenge that thought.

So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

Then they moved to Baltimore....where they continued the tradition of winning playoff games and finally make it to a Super Bowl.

[Dutch Oven]

7 minutes ago, FY56 said:

Then they moved to Baltimore....where they continued the tradition of winning playoff games and finally make it to a Super Bowl.

I instinctively expected to see an angry Gipper response to this...  

[Kvoethe]

Im just here so I wont get fined.

[calfoxwc]

10 hours ago, Riffer X said:

Not a bad read here by Tones believe it or not.

Baker Mayfield Was One Of A Kind And Deserves A Lofty Spot In Browns History

It was appropriate referencing his relationship with Mayfield because it was a part of Baker's public legacy here, imo.

I don't think it has resonated with people yet where Baker ranks in team history, regardless of if they are "Baker Bros" or "Thank Gawd He's Gone!!" types. Taking the new era stats into account, he still ranks pretty highly considering he was only here for 4 years. These are just stats but winning the first road playoff game since 1969 and beating Pitt to do so will be looked back fondly in years to come.

-- 1st in completion %

-- 2nd in QB rating (per Football Reference -- behind Milt Plum)

-- 2nd in interception %

-- 4th in yards passing or 3rd if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in TDs or 4th if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in AV but would be 6th if Otto had an AV. AV is Approximate Value

-- 7th in wins if I am calculating this correctly

Cleveland Browns Career Passing Leaders

"but....but....he was imperfect on a few plays" and "he says stuff".  .......

[tiamat63]

11 hours ago, Riffer X said:

Not a bad read here by Tones believe it or not.

Baker Mayfield Was One Of A Kind And Deserves A Lofty Spot In Browns History

It was appropriate referencing his relationship with Mayfield because it was a part of Baker's public legacy here, imo.

I don't think it has resonated with people yet where Baker ranks in team history, regardless of if they are "Baker Bros" or "Thank Gawd He's Gone!!" types. Taking the new era stats into account, he still ranks pretty highly considering he was only here for 4 years. These are just stats but winning the first road playoff game since 1969 and beating Pitt to do so will be looked back fondly in years to come.

-- 1st in completion %

-- 2nd in QB rating (per Football Reference -- behind Milt Plum)

-- 2nd in interception %

-- 4th in yards passing or 3rd if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in TDs or 4th if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in AV but would be 6th if Otto had an AV. AV is Approximate Value

-- 7th in wins if I am calculating this correctly

Cleveland Browns Career Passing Leaders

 

This team hasn't been blessed with a long history of quality QB play. 

Would seem to follow that, in the modern offense driven era of football, even an average to slightly above average passer would earn "lofty" rankings in stats when we go down the pantheon list of CLE signal callers. 

 

[Riffer X]

29 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

This team hasn't been blessed with a long history of quality QB play. 

Would seem to follow that, in the modern offense driven era of football, even an average to slightly above average passer would earn "lofty" rankings in stats when we go down the pantheon list of CLE signal callers. 

 

Yeah, that is assumed and patently obvious. But the facts are the facts. The Browns have been around for 75 years, and Baker ranks in the top 5 or higher for just about every pertinent stat. He accomplished that in only four years while winning a road playoff game in Pitt. 

This was in no way meant to be some sort of Baker promoting rationalization for his poor play and antics, but simply pointing out the facts. And yes, it does point out how piss poor our QB play has been over the majority of those 75 years. 

-- Take a look at Sipe, who is probably my favorite alltime Browns QB. He left here unceremoniously for the USFL at the end of his time in Cleveland.

-- Career rating of 74.8

-- Record barely above 500 at 57-55 -- which means he literally won one more game than he lost. Mayfield wins one more game, he is a game above 500. 

-- Sipe never won a playoff game in 10 seasons and only went once, where he basically threw the game away in Red Right. Stuff's all relative, but stats are stats.

-- Mayfield is arguably a better QB than Dr. Frank Ryan was. Ryan just happened to be the last Browns QB to win a championship on a loaded team with Jim Brown, plus he played more seasons and more games.

Right now, there is a recency bias towards Mayfield and fans are fickle. Eight months ago, this guy was beloved by the majority of Browns fans except those who were growing concerned about his poor film. A year ago, he was beloved by just about all Browns fans like no QB since Bernie. In twenty years, most fans will probably look back fondly at Mayfield and point out how he ranks in the top five alltime for Browns QBs. Of course, hopefully DW is ahead of him in every facet.

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, Riffer X said:

Yeah, that is assumed and patently obvious. But the facts are the facts. The Browns have been around for 75 years, and Baker ranks in the top 5 or higher for just about every pertinent stat. He accomplished that in only four years while winning a road playoff game in Pitt. 

This was in no way meant to be some sort of Baker promoting rationalization for his poor play and antics, but simply pointing out the facts. And yes, it does point out how piss poor our QB play has been over the majority of those 75 years. 

-- Take a look at Sipe, who is probably my favorite alltime Browns QB. He left here unceremoniously for the USFL at the end of his time in Cleveland.

-- Career rating of 74.8

-- Record barely above 500 at 57-55 -- which means he literally won one more game than he lost. Mayfield wins one more game, he is a game above 500. 

-- Sipe never won a playoff game in 10 seasons and only went once, where he basically threw the game away in Red Right. Stuff's all relative, but stats are stats.

-- Mayfield is arguably a better QB than Dr. Frank Ryan was. Ryan just happened to be the last Browns QB to win a championship on a loaded team with Jim Brown, plus he played more seasons and more games.

Right now, there is a recency bias towards Mayfield and fans are fickle. Eight months ago, this guy was beloved by the majority of Browns fans except those who were growing concerned about his poor film. A year ago, he was beloved by just about all Browns fans like no QB since Bernie. In twenty years, most fans will probably look back fondly at Mayfield and point out how he ranks in the top five alltime for Browns QBs. Of course, hopefully DW is ahead of him in every facet.

I tend to think of things using the filter of time in order to effect my current thought process. 

While I've had my gripes about Bakers play since Oklahoma State 2017, I will look fondly back on his time in CLE.  Team was a dumpster fire for 20 years and, while I feel a bit too much credit is given his way, and someone like Hoyer could have been a .500 QB with this roster and coaches,  I would also be an idiot to not acknowledge Mayfield's field contributions to making this team competitive.   

More so than on the field, was the off-field mentality that's lost in all of this. Baker gave us, yes that includes me, the gift of belief.  Belief that this team can and was/is turning their losing ways around.  Or at least, wanting to believe we could.  With hindsight, could it be considered arrogance or perhaps even false bravado? Sure.  

But at that time? It was something more, and the power of belief cannot be understated.  For that, I will always be grateful to Baker.

[Riffer X]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I tend to think of things using the filter of time in order to effect my current thought process. 

While I've had my gripes about Bakers play since Oklahoma State 2017, I will look fondly back on his time in CLE.  Team was a dumpster fire for 20 years and, while I feel a bit too much credit is given his way, and someone like Hoyer could have been a .500 QB with this roster and coaches,  I would also be an idiot to not acknowledge Mayfield's field contributions to making this team competitive.   

More so than on the field, was the off-field mentality that's lost in all of this. Baker gave us, yes that includes me, the gift of belief.  Belief that this team can and was/is turning their losing ways around.  Or at least, wanting to believe we could.  With hindsight, could it be considered arrogance or perhaps even false bravado? Sure.  

But at that time? It was something more, and the power of belief cannot be understated.  For that, I will always be grateful to Baker.

Agreed. Flugs and I were discussing this the other day, but it seems like fans in this era are very quick to turn on their players as compared to year's past. The reason I posted my nostalgic posts above regarding the Denver playoff games is because while watching those the other day, I fondly recalled how much I loved those players. I mean Mack had two huge fumbles in both The Drive and The Fumble, but he remains one of my alltime favorite Browns (great guy btw). We all remember the Slaughter lack of hustle leading to the Castille strip, but he also bobbled a pick from Bernie early on during The Fumble that killed a third down conversion and was hurt in crunch time during The Drive. Felix is one of my faves at safety over the years and he made a huge mistake in The Fumble. 

Even during the season. our fans attack players non-stop and are unable to appreciate guys who may not be superstars, but who do their jobs and are consummate team players. Fans nowadays need to hate a player when they leave and much of that is due to the over saturation of media coverage imo. When Sipe left for the USFL, we probably would have heard all kinds of BS on Twitter and through local media about his antics and fans would spread the fake news like wildfire.

I believe when all the drama from this is over with and everybody moves on, most fans will look back fondly on Baker's tenure and all the "he plays video games too much and throws guys under the bus" etc. will be long forgotten. 

Like you said, Baker gave us hope and then he cashed it in with the road playoff game win against Pitt. His arm is probably the best in franchise history despite his smaller stature, and that did matter with keeping teams from stacking the box too much. 

 

[Canton Dawg]

18 minutes ago, Riffer X said:

Agreed. Flugs and I were discussing this the other day, but it seems like fans in this era are very quick to turn on their players as compared to year's past. The reason I posted my nostalgic posts above regarding the Denver playoff games is because while watching those the other day, I fondly recalled how much I loved those players. I mean Mack had two huge fumbles in both The Drive and The Fumble, but he remains one of my alltime favorite Browns (great guy btw). We all remember the Slaughter lack of hustle leading to the Castille strip, but he also bobbled a pick from Bernie early on during The Fumble that killed a third down conversion and was hurt in crunch time during The Drive. Felix is one of my faves at safety over the years and he made a huge mistake in The Fumble. 

Even during the season. our fans attack players non-stop and are unable to appreciate guys who may not be superstars, but who do their jobs and are consummate team players. Fans nowadays need to hate a player when they leave and much of that is due to the over saturation of media coverage imo. When Sipe left for the USFL, we probably would have heard all kinds of BS on Twitter and through local media about his antics and fans would spread the fake news like wildfire.

I believe when all the drama from this is over with and everybody moves on, most fans will look back fondly on Baker's tenure and all the "he plays video games too much and throws guys under the bus" etc. 

Like you said, Baker gave us hope and then he cashed it in with the road playoff game against Pitt. His arm is probably the best in franchise history despite his smaller stature, and that did matter with keeping teams from stacking the box too much. 

 

Good post, and I’m also concerned that since DW has the bar set very high, if he doesn’t perform (quickly) the fans will also turn on him.

[Riffer X]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Good post, and I’m also concerned that since DW has the bar set very high, if he doesn’t perform (quickly) the fans will also turn on him.

I'm not too worried about Watson, he's a damn good ballplayer. He'll be lining up behind easily one of the league's best lines with the best RB unit in the league and some nice WRs in Cooper, Bell and DPJ (for now -- could be more added). Njoku and Bryant are a nice tandem as well so he will have his best cockpit ever. Stefanski has to be salivating.

[nickers]

27 minutes ago, Riffer X said:

I'm not too worried about Watson, he's a damn good ballplayer. He'll be lining up behind easily one of the league's best lines with the best RB unit in the league and some nice WRs in Cooper, Bell and DPJ (for now -- could be more added). Njoku and Bryant are a nice tandem as well so he will have his best cockpit ever. Stefanski has to be salivating.

Shitpantski might be too conservative in philosophy for the talent assembled on this team...

[Dutch Oven]

I wonder if Denver waxes poetically years later about the time Tim Tebow directed the Broncos over a playoff win vs the Steelers...

[Riffer X]

23 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I wonder if Denver waxes poetically years later about the time Tim Tebow directed the Broncos over a playoff win vs the Steelers...

What's the point?

[Unsympathetic]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:47 AM, Riffer X said:

This was in no way meant to be some sort of Baker promoting rationalization for his poor play and antics, but simply pointing out the facts

How can I say I think he's decent but not great without saying he's decent but not great?

Yes, we haven't had legitimately great QB play since Otto Graham retired.. yet.. however that doesn't mean that as a team "the bar" for that greatness should be lowered just to satisfy the whims of recency bias.  We've seen HOF play from multiple positions, so I really don't think we need to lower standards for any position just because our prior idiot GM's didn't get a good QB.  In fact all but one of our HOF players is on offense, so let's have a bit of pride and adopt absolute rather than relative standards for our evaluation of players. We can admit that many players who won more games at QB also had pretty glaring holes.. For example, Kosar's arm strength would best be described as "It would be nice if he had some."

DW is fundamentally the first potentially-great-for-Browns QB we've had since I turned on the TV as a kid.  Mayfield wasn't "extraordinarily bad" at being a QB.. he was, however, never going to earn the 8-9 digit salary he wanted due to his documented physical&mental limitations.  I don't think it was ever possible to get "equality" in a trade of Baker because BM is too immature to control himself until the new team has signed the paperwork.

Coming up with something actually complimentary to say about Mayfield.. He wasn't in the bottom 10 of starting QB's in the NFL. And that's behind us now --- He won some games in the past.  I don't think negative things about him, I don't think positive things about him.. I don't have the time.  He was traded for very good reasons, arrivederci.

[ballpeen]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:29 AM, Riffer X said:

Agreed. Flugs and I were discussing this the other day, but it seems like fans in this era are very quick to turn on their players as compared to year's past.

 

The reason is the "Net".  Now we 'talk" with people from all over the country.  In the past you talked Browns with a fairly closed circle of friends.  You knew these people for the most part and agreed on most issues.  On the net it is far easier to trash players.

[mjp28]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:06 AM, Flugel said:

Let's not overthink this stuff.  We're all here because we're not all there...  That's not nearly as bad as it sounds.  In fact, it takes a special breed of character and loyalty that is admirable considering how often those traits get battle-tested over the years.  

.....So many fond memories in my family following this tradition.  Way too many to ever stop me from following the Cleveland Browns.  It's fun to join everyone in here and bust balls when necessary.  Hang in there because you've already been battle tested.  Just remember one last time - We're all here because we're not all there!

Yes and sometimes we need to take a step back take a deep breath and relax, think things over again before hitting the keypad and putting our thoughts on the screen.  I try to think about what being a sports fan and a BROWNS  fan means to me and the other guys and gals here on The BROWNS BOARD. 

I try to be fair and understand where they are coming from whether they are a newbie Browns fan or an old geezer like me who actually saw Jim Brown play on the gridiron and not just from his wonderful movie career...... lol. I try not to be too quick to judge or prejudge people before really hearing them out..  

Sometimes it's not easy in this fast paced rapid fire news cycle world. that's too bad try stepping back once in awhile and collect your thoughts. 

And have some fun here on The BROWNS BOARD home of the toughest (and nicest) fans in pro sports. 

And as always  GO BROWNS  !   

...... * edit add,  July 26, 2022.  I  was just thinking back over the past January through July 2022 and what a long, nasty, miserable seven months    it's been with all of the strange,  nasty things that have happened in the Cleveland Browns  world.

And I realized that I am sorry if I have been nasty in any way to anyone just in all of the back and forth  day-to-day dealings on the board it is  really not. my style at all in dealing with people.   

We have all been through a lot  in the past seven months and  just need to take a break.  So let's just get ready for the upcoming NFL season.

Hey even high school football will be here in 3 weeks.  ND at OSU is on September 3, 2022.

And   G9 BROWNS  !

[Flugel]

13 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

How can I say I think he's decent but not great without saying he's decent but not great?

Yes, we haven't had legitimately great QB play since Otto Graham retired.. yet.. however that doesn't mean that as a team "the bar" for that greatness should be lowered just to satisfy the whims of recency bias.  We've seen HOF play from multiple positions, so I really don't think we need to lower standards for any position just because our prior idiot GM's didn't get a good QB.  In fact all but one of our HOF players is on offense, so let's have a bit of pride and adopt absolute rather than relative standards for our evaluation of players. We can admit that many players who won more games at QB also had pretty glaring holes.. For example, Kosar's arm strength would best be described as "It would be nice if he had some."

DW is fundamentally the first potentially-great-for-Browns QB we've had since I turned on the TV as a kid.  Mayfield wasn't "extraordinarily bad" at being a QB.. he was, however, never going to earn the 8-9 digit salary he wanted due to his documented physical&mental limitations.  I don't think it was ever possible to get "equality" in a trade of Baker because BM is too immature to control himself until the new team has signed the paperwork.

Coming up with something actually complimentary to say about Mayfield.. He wasn't in the bottom 10 of starting QB's in the NFL. And that's behind us now --- He won some games in the past.  I don't think negative things about him, I don't think positive things about him.. I don't have the time.  He was traded for very good reasons, arrivederci.

While you state the obvious, we sometimes excuse other young QBs going to bad organizations/organization overhauls. I remembered 1 or 2 guys sticking up for Josh Rosen because he went to a bad team.  Ok, Baker went to an 0-16 team that was 1-15 the year before that.  He also went to Hue Jackson and 2 or 3 different OCs in the first 2 years.  That said, he threw 27 TD passes as a wide eyed rookie in spite of only starting 13 games.  It broke a rookie TD pass record at the time until a guy with 2 more starts his rookie year broke it for the Chargers.  Growth has been stunted and I DO agree with those that say a lot of that was also on Baker.

Baker's worst 2 seasons were 2019 (his 2nd year) when we lost both starting Tackles and the backup in the opener.  He got antsy and showed us the his version of the Clash with "should I stay or should I go" hesitancy that was maddening at times.  Some of that came with WHO we had sealing those edges in backup roles.  People started to see enough in their perceptions that this guy doesn't have the improvise with his questionable decision making and tunnel vision as he got ansty.  

The next year Cleveland drafted a Tackle early in round 1 and signed FA Jack Conklin with a well paid contract.  Baker had a better year with 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs which is a 3:1 ratio.  The Browns made the playoffs with an 11-5 record and beat a divisional rival on the road in the 1st round of the post season.  He wasn't elite but he didn't exactly buzz kill the Ws that year.

So, in 2021 we went back to injuries to both tackles that impacted/ended their season.  Wills played on a bad ankle all year and it showed on the edge.  Not only that Chris Hubbard went on IR at the very beginning of the year.  Then we had rookie a RT trying to block TJ Watt; so guess what returned?  The same stuff we saw from Baker in 2019.  After throwing only 8 INTs in 16 games in 2020 - Baker threw 4 INTs just on Christmas Day alone in 2021. We've seen a lot of the highlights of an antsy QB not seeing open receivers or exhibiting the patience to read through the progressions.  Very frustrating stuff indeed.

So YES there's been decent play; but what have we had at QB since 1999?  Even more important WHY?  The SD Chargers were giving up on Drew Brees heading into his 4th NFL season while coming off the NFL's worst record to earn the 1st pick overall.  They drafted Eli Manning who already told them he won't play for them; so then they traded their 1st overall selection they made to the Giants for Philip Rivers.  Rivers held out the length of training camp while all the planets and stars aligned for Brees to lead his team to 12-4 and his 1st NFP Pro Bowl.  4 years that took to launch.  Guys have different rates of emerging based on what each needs to overcome.  Not everyone has that Dan Marino rookie year.  Also, not everyone gets drafted to Don Shula as his HC in the rookie year unless someone wants to argue Hue Jackson is in that category.  

Anyway, I'm ready to move on.  That said, I won't hide from my original thinking he was going to be a great QB in this league.  I'm still confident he can do so; but I'm a Cleveland Browns fan so the loyalty will remain where it has always been...

Edited July 26, 2022 by Flugel
Flugel needs a better speel chucker