Tale of the Tape - Browns @ Panthers

[calfoxwc]

4 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

"3rd and 37".

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

LOL LOL LOL

dammit. I'm injured that hurts. LOL LOL

dammit.

[Vambo]

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This is a free ap. I've used it several times and you can mirron it to your smart tv.

[Canton Dawg]

The Good:

Special teams, the Browns IMO have one of the best kickers in the league. While at the same time the Panthers kicker suffered an injury last week so they had to bring in a kicker off the street. The Browns have THE BEST RB’s in the league. Myles Garrett will be going against a rookie LT so I’m expecting a big game from him. Also, Carolina has two undersized Defensive Ends that I’m hoping the Browns can contain.

The Bad:

Our interior defensive line is a liability that I thought AB was going to address in the off season, but we’re going to limp along with who we have.

The Ugly:

Our WR group, which is ranked 24th in the league by PFF. Let’s face it…they’re not scaring anyone this year.

 

 

[jiggins7919]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:14 AM, Canton Dawg said:

Our interior defensive line is a liability that I thought AB was going to address in the off season, but we’re going to limp along with who we have.

The Ugly:

Our WR group, which is ranked 24th in the league by PFF. Let’s face it…they’re not scaring anyone this year.

I was mostly ok with the DL. We shut down the rush almost all day and even got some interior pressure on occasion, including deflections. They did...ok. 

Our WRs were good enough, and we need to remember they can't throw the ball to themselves. If Brissett hits Cooper on that open first quarter pass...the game is over much earlier in the second half. DPJ was incredible, catching basically everything. That wheel route Brissett missed to Hunt was an absolute dagger to the heart as well. Jacoby missed every big time throw down the field and it almost killed us. Bad teams kick FG's, playoff teams score touchdowns. 

The "ugly" to me is Brissett not ever throwing the ball to Njoku. Why did we pay him? One target for 7 yards? Jesus. Brissett missed him wide open on 3rd down inside the red zone. The pass that Bryant dropped. Would Njoku have gotten the first. Ehhh...tough to say, but he didn't even LOOK at him. 

[Canton Dawg]

9 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I was mostly ok with the DL. We shut down the rush almost all day and even got some interior pressure on occasion, including deflections. They did...ok. 

Our WRs were good enough, and we need to remember they can't throw the ball to themselves. If Brissett hits Cooper on that open first quarter pass...the game is over much earlier in the second half. DPJ was incredible, catching basically everything. That wheel route Brissett missed to Hunt was an absolute dagger to the heart as well. Jacoby missed every big time throw down the field and it almost killed us. Bad teams kick FG's, playoff teams score touchdowns. 

The "ugly" to me is Brissett not ever throwing the ball to Njoku. Why did we pay him? One target for 7 yards? Jesus. Brissett missed him wide open on 3rd down inside the red zone. The pass that Bryant dropped. Would Njoku have gotten the first. Ehhh...tough to say, but he didn't even LOOK at him. 

I couldn’t figure out why the Browns paid top tier money to a TE we rarely use?

Also, Brissett left at least 2 TD passes on the field.

Of course we have the Jacoby groupies that will make excuses for him, but it doesn’t matter who’s under center, I’m going to call out shit play regardless of who it is.

 

 

[tiamat63]

On 9/9/2022 at 2:28 PM, calfoxwc said:

on special teams.  He doesn't have cb speed.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/mj-emerson/3200454d-4540-4215-97fb-3728b8869883

Prospect Grade

5.80

Average backup or special-teamer

 

 Of all the things you said pregame that ended up way wrong, this one, and the status of Carolina's Oline, might be the biggest miss of them all. 

 One half in, and I'm liking a lot of what I see from Emerson.  His mirror on releases in man looked pretty damn good.  Patient and good hand usage. Footwork needs cleaned up a touch, but his hip sink, fluidity and weight distribution were all quality. 

 I haven't watched all his snaps directly targeting him, but by my first skimming, it was a fine opening act to his career. 

[Flugel]

15 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I was mostly ok with the DL. We shut down the rush almost all day and even got some interior pressure on occasion, including deflections. They did...ok. 

Our WRs were good enough, and we need to remember they can't throw the ball to themselves. If Brissett hits Cooper on that open first quarter pass...the game is over much earlier in the second half. DPJ was incredible, catching basically everything. That wheel route Brissett missed to Hunt was an absolute dagger to the heart as well. Jacoby missed every big time throw down the field and it almost killed us. Bad teams kick FG's, playoff teams score touchdowns. 

The "ugly" to me is Brissett not ever throwing the ball to Njoku. Why did we pay him? One target for 7 yards? Jesus. Brissett missed him wide open on 3rd down inside the red zone. The pass that Bryant dropped. Would Njoku have gotten the first. Ehhh...tough to say, but he didn't even LOOK at him. 

Good to see you back in the mix Jiggs!   Here's a completely different way of looking at things that may or may not put you at ease:

Quick question: When has Brissett ever been a starting QB, not to be confused with backup QB filling in for starter?   Did you know that #68 Michael Dunn was actually playing a lot of TE lining up next to James Hudson III especially in the 2nd half?  Does that tell us Njoku was a huge part of the game plan?  Brissett isn't the 1st or 2nd QB here that hasn't had chemistry with Njoku.  All that aside, it's also important to remember, just 2 weeks after finding out how long Watson is suspended - it was only week 1.

Again week 1 reality with Tom Brady and Bucs vrs  Jerry Jones & The Pretenders - the Bucs kicked 4 FGs and only scored 1 TD.  That's week 1 stuff.   We could also look to see how many points the SB champions scored against Buffalo.  Patrick Mahomes almost scored that in 13 seconds vrs Buffalo back in January. Didn't Russell Wilson just lose to Seattle?  How many TDs did Denver score?  Do we assume it over for Russell or does he dare show up for week 2?

This isn't just you Jiggs; but we're already full blown kick the #1 QB on the depth chart out of town because he dared to show some rust in week 1.  Did we ever expect Don Strock or Mike Pagel to be better than or = to Bernie Kosar?  No, we just appreciated it if they didn't lose the game or give it away with INTs/turnovers.  Brissett did that.  Okay, he was 18 of 34 (understanding 4 of those were spikes)

If we weren't already paying Baker to lose to us, and Watson and Brissett and Dobbs - maybe we could have traded for a Gardner Minshew (guessing we didn't have the $ for Jimmy G or patience with his rehab/when he could start playing again). In saying all that, how much better is Minshew over what we have or had given the reality we'd have to pay him more $ plus either give up a player from our active roster or part with another draft pick in order to trade w/Philly for him?  

This will play itself out within a few weeks IMO.  Right now, there's some rust given how training camp began with Watson getting starter reps.  Looking at Watson's 1st preseason game, he had some rust too and that was against pre-season vanilla.   If Brissett doesn't improve each of the next 2 weeks - then it's time to worry about how long we can mess around with him. 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 Of all the things you said pregame that ended up way wrong, this one, and the status of Carolina's Oline, might be the biggest miss of them all. 

 One half in, and I'm liking a lot of what I see from Emerson.  His mirror on releases in man looked pretty damn good.  Patient and good hand usage. Footwork needs cleaned up a touch, but his hip sink, fluidity and weight distribution were all quality. 

 I haven't watched all his snaps directly targeting him, but by my first skimming, it was a fine opening act to his career. 

I don't think I mentioned the oline in this thread. If you explained why I was wrong about the oline at the HALF? - it would be cool.

Was I wrong about the oline? Garrett did NOT get ONE SACK until his twin sacks with about 6 minutes left in the THIRD QUARTER.

   That is pretty good for a star rookie playing LT against the most dominant pass rusher in the NFL, in his first game..

   That LT position was greatly improved.

Improvement is relative to the talent and troubles they had last year.  So, if you could explain your point, it would be good.

My pregame fun appraisal was in another thread. I take it you didn't like me wondering how good Emerson could be? When his grade was "not starter" etc? Emerson did play a lot, but I didn't notice where. Slot coverage? always outside?

   There are plenty of wr's in the NFL that Emerson won't be able to run with.

[jiggins7919]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

Again week 1 reality with Tom Brady and Bucs vrs  Jerry Jones & The Pretenders - the Bucs kicked 4 FGs and only scored 1 TD.  That's week 1 stuff.   We could also look to see how many points the SB champions scored against Buffalo.  Patrick Mahomes almost scored that in 13 seconds vrs Buffalo back in January. Didn't Russell Wilson just lose to Seattle?  How many TDs did Denver score?  Do we assume it over for Russell or does he dare show up for week 2?

I really like this point. To be honest, just freaking winning the opener is such a massive boon to our season that I can't even explain it. I won't lie, when we gave up the 75 yard bomb I thought it was over, I thought we lost. It looked like virtually EVERY other opener from the time a T-Rex chased a Stegosaurus around a lush and fertile planet. 

My post was a little more negative than I desired, and I totally agree with your point that it's week 1 and we'll get better. I think the basis of my frustration is that we just refuse to "win" games. We had SO many chances to win this game, and while it's certainly not all on Brissett by any means, the amount of gigantic gains he missed or didn't see was staggering. I'm also mad at Myles Garrett. I must be crazy, right? 

Wrong. There's absolutely NO REASON not to get that fumble. That fumble ends the damn game most likely and the QB gets it? Come on, dude. Ok fine...I'm notad at Garrett because I love him and he's incredible, but my point is that we had so many chances to put the game away and we didn't do it. 

But you know what? It sure feels better to learn from a win than a loss, right?! 😂 

BTW, I'm still sore at Brissett for missing Chubb on the easiest 40 yard swing pass on history. There was NOBODY around him and Brissett didn't identify it. I think I tossed my ass to the ground and pounded the carpet toddler style. 😭

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I really like this point. To be honest, just freaking winning the opener is such a massive boon to our season that I can't even explain it. I won't lie, when we gave up the 75 yard bomb I thought it was over, I thought we lost. It looked like virtually EVERY other opener from the time a T-Rex chased a Stegosaurus around a lush and fertile planet. 

My post was a little more negative than I desired, and I totally agree with your point that it's week 1 and we'll get better. I think the basis of my frustration is that we just refuse to "win" games. We had SO many chances to win this game, and while it's certainly not all on Brissett by any means, the amount of gigantic gains he missed or didn't see was staggering. I'm also mad at Myles Garrett. I must be crazy, right? 

Wrong. There's absolutely NO REASON not to get that fumble. That fumble ends the damn game most likely and the QB gets it? Come on, dude. Ok fine...I'm notad at Garrett because I love him and he's incredible, but my point is that we had so many chances to put the game away and we didn't do it. 

But you know what? It sure feels better to learn from a win than a loss, right?! 😂 

BTW, I'm still sore at Brissett for missing Chubb on the easiest 40 yard swing pass on history. There was NOBODY around him and Brissett didn't identify it. I think I tossed my ass to the ground and pounded the carpet toddler style. 😭

You make some good points above.

Yeah, that definitely wasn't an eye candy Josh Allen vrs Patrick Mahomes passing game shoot-out. We all get that and I'm sure most of us shared your frustration when Jacoby misfired or didn't see open guys.  It's just important to remember that the league has 32 starters and 32 backups. Our starter is out for 10 more games.  Fortunately, the guy we're looking to has experience and some success filling in as a starter.  Our FO and Stefanski are confident he'll do a good job here once they get everyone on the same page working together more. 

 The Browns won and everyone stayed healthy.   That's a pretty damn good Sunday considering how many openers this franchise has won since 1999.  

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

You make some good points above.

Yeah, that definitely wasn't an eye candy Josh Allen vrs Patrick Mahomes passing game shoot-out. We all get that and I'm sure most of us shared your frustration when Jacoby misfired or didn't see open guys.  It's just important to remember that the league has 32 starters and 32 backups. Our starter is out for 10 more games.  Fortunately, the guy we're looking to has experience and some success filling in as a starter.  Our FO and Stefanski are confident he'll do a good job here once they get everyone on the same page working together more. 

 The Browns won and everyone stayed healthy.   That's a pretty damn good Sunday considering how many openers this franchise has won since 1999.  

I forgot about the healthy part!! 

Not to be a persistent downer, but I just saw the breakdown of Jed Wills. Guys...it wasn't just bad, it was terrible. Like, there multiple plays where it looks like he...quit. Check out the Twitter feed. It's crazy! 

https://twitter.com/Rob_Shenanigans/status/1569771389145456651?t=UeljAr-6J0DaSGdzqhyt6w&s=19

 

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

You make some good points above.

Yeah, that definitely wasn't an eye candy Josh Allen vrs Patrick Mahomes passing game shoot-out. We all get that and I'm sure most of us shared your frustration when Jacoby misfired or didn't see open guys.  It's just important to remember that the league has 32 starters and 32 backups. Our starter is out for 10 more games.  Fortunately, the guy we're looking to has experience and some success filling in as a starter.  Our FO and Stefanski are confident he'll do a good job here once they get everyone on the same page working together more. 

 The Browns won and everyone stayed healthy.   That's a pretty damn good Sunday considering how many openers this franchise has won since 1999.  

I forgot about the healthy part!! 

Not to be a persistent downer, but I just saw the breakdown of Jed Wills. Guys...it wasn't just bad, it was terrible. Like, there multiple plays where it looks like he...quit. Check out the Twitter feed. It's crazy! 

 

 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Not to be a persistent downer, but I just saw the breakdown of Jed Wills. Guys...it wasn't just bad, it was terrible. Like, there multiple plays where it looks like he...quit.

Yeah man.  In that first play highlight (which is all I saw) it looked like it's in his contract that he only has to work 3-4 seconds tops per play.

 

12 hours ago, Flugel said:

Right now, there's some rust

I think that the removal of that preseason game had a dramatic affect on how the preseason unfolds now.  The teams have 90 guys that they've got to evaluate.  And then there's guys they're cutting and bringing new ones in. And although you can see a lot through practices, the games verify your thoughts on guys and at the same time make other guys shine that you didn't know had such luster.   - Oh, and BTW, you've gotta get your starters out there enough to shake the 'rust' off.   And that's where the suffering comes in.  You can't get the starters enough game reps.  

Now, if your team comes back from the offseason pretty much in tact then you've got a better chance at being synced.  But if you've got a lot of turnover...or say...a new QB...or in our case, a new QB room...good luck at trying to get your offense synced up.

Was it Terry Pluto that said a little while back, 'Face it folks, the first few games of the season are going to be like preseason'.  

Although I feel it's unfair to judge Brissett after the opening day game......I don't think he will be the next Rich Gannon (rags to riches).  We're going to have to play GOOD defense and be very foxy on offense to maximize the potential of the run game by being efficient enough in the passing game to keep the defenses somewhat honest.  

....this next game is a must win.  Ya can't afford to have a game against a team like the Jets end up in a loss.  

[jiggins7919]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

I think that the removal of that preseason game had a dramatic affect on how the preseason unfolds now.  The teams have 90 guys that they've got to evaluate. 

This is actually a great point. Teams are SO afraid of injuries that they're just not playing starters virtually at all, and the first few games are extended preseason. I mean, I get it. Can you IMAGINE losing Chubb or Garrett in a meaningless game? 

I guess we just have to have the "survive and advance" mindset. We need to win the games we're supposed to and carve out enough ugly wins against good teams to stay relevant. We can do that, I really believe it. Not to put TOO much pressure on the rookie, but having a legit FG kicker could ultimately net us a couple wins alone. And I'm not kidding. 

Do I wish Brissett hit one of the easy big gainers? Yeah, I do. I think we'd all feel a bit better if we saw him make a huge, explosive play. But fear not, we're just getting our feet wet, and it's going to be a RIOT in Cleveland Sunday. Damn I can't wait. 

[Flugel]

7 hours ago, Orion said:

Yeah man.  In that first play highlight (which is all I saw) it looked like it's in his contract that he only has to work 3-4 seconds tops per play.

 

I think that the removal of that preseason game had a dramatic affect on how the preseason unfolds now.  The teams have 90 guys that they've got to evaluate.  And then there's guys they're cutting and bringing new ones in. And although you can see a lot through practices, the games verify your thoughts on guys and at the same time make other guys shine that you didn't know had such luster.   - Oh, and BTW, you've gotta get your starters out there enough to shake the 'rust' off.   And that's where the suffering comes in.  You can't get the starters enough game reps.  

Now, if your team comes back from the offseason pretty much in tact then you've got a better chance at being synced.  But if you've got a lot of turnover...or say...a new QB...or in our case, a new QB room...good luck at trying to get your offense synced up.

Was it Terry Pluto that said a little while back, 'Face it folks, the first few games of the season are going to be like preseason'.  

Although I feel it's unfair to judge Brissett after the opening day game......I don't think he will be the next Rich Gannon (rags to riches).  We're going to have to play GOOD defense and be very foxy on offense to maximize the potential of the run game by being efficient enough in the passing game to keep the defenses somewhat honest.  

....this next game is a must win.  Ya can't afford to have a game against a team like the Jets end up in a loss.  

Well said!  On top of all that, when Watson was only suspended for 6 games - he started the 1st preseason game.  The other 2 games - the Browns spent considerable time watching Dobbs and Rosen to decide how many QBs (and who) they wanted to keep for the active roster and practice squad.  That has to impact the overall chemistry out there.   Unfortunately, none of that changes why the QBs on the roster today are backup QBs where their only chances to start are injury or suspension to the starting QB. That's the reality we're in during the backward step of waiting until Watson's suspension is over.  

People are just going to have to remember this when the Browns are facing QBs like Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Tom Brady, Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson before Watson comes off suspension.  That gives our defense 0 margin of error; so we better hope the backup isn't throwing INTs.  He didn't this week and it was enough to win despite the complaints of how hard it was to watch the passing game.  During the 15 games Brisset played for Indy in 2019, he threw 18 TD passes to just 6 INTs (3:1 ratio). What I can't tell you is if any of that looked like what we saw on Sunday. He did a lot worse than that in Miami last year; but the Browns have a much better offensive line and running game to give him the support that Miami was incapable of.

Week 2 improvements to our passing game are very doable IMO.  

[tiamat63]

15 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I forgot about the healthy part!! 

Not to be a persistent downer, but I just saw the breakdown of Jed Wills. Guys...it wasn't just bad, it was terrible. Like, there multiple plays where it looks like he...quit. Check out the Twitter feed. It's crazy! 

 

 

 

 I made mention of my concerns about Jed as early as pre-season week 2.  The trend of him over setting, then being beaten back to his inside shoulder was obvious. 

 I'm still willing to keep an open mind about him, but if your Twitter guys lead off example is showing Jed turn an inside gap shot loose and upfield when the Browns had a screen call on, I can't find it in me to read further. 

 Lead off should be done with your textbook example. Not something which doesn't belong in the conversation. 

[jiggins7919]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:24 AM, tiamat63 said:

I made mention of my concerns about Jed as early as pre-season week 2.  The trend of him over setting, then being beaten back to his inside shoulder was obvious. 

That's really his biggest weakness. The Twitter guy definitely cherry picked, as there were plenty of good and solid examples. I think the concern is the lack of effort on too many plays. People I respect like Jake Burns have been pointing this out for a while and it's difficult to fix effort compared to technique. 

Jed is infuriating at times because he certainly has the talent. I don't think he's BAD, but I also want him to get to the next level. Conversely, I was rather proud of Hudson. I can't wait to see if he strings together two solid games in a row. So much fun to watch our OL when it's on! 

[nickers]

51 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

That's really his biggest weakness. The Twitter guy definitely cherry picked, as there were plenty of good and solid examples. I think the concern is the lack of effort on too many plays. People I respect like Jake Burns have been pointing this out for a while and it's difficult to fix effort compared to technique. 

Jed is infuriating at times because he certainly has the talent. I don't think he's BAD, but I also want him to get to the next level. Conversely, I was rather proud of Hudson. I can't wait to see if he strings together two solid games in a row. So much fun to watch our OL when it's on! 

He needs to "want it" more IMHO... All of the tools are there....

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

That's really his biggest weakness. The Twitter guy definitely cherry picked, as there were plenty of good and solid examples. I think the concern is the lack of effort on too many plays. People I respect like Jake Burns have been pointing this out for a while and it's difficult to fix effort compared to technique. 

Jed is infuriating at times because he certainly has the talent. I don't think he's BAD, but I also want him to get to the next level. Conversely, I was rather proud of Hudson. I can't wait to see if he strings together two solid games in a row. So much fun to watch our OL when it's on! 

Effort is a different animal. 

 Because a lack of coaching and technique is obvious, but being "lazy" in your assignment is even more obvious.  It's also the least accepted thing on a football field from both the coaches and the players.  So if it is an issue of Jed half asking it, I suspect that's a problem that will be correct VERY quickly.   Coaches just won't stand for it, and neither will your QB. 

 Hear me out on this, because it's an off-the-cuff opinion.   I haven't gone back to watch Jed specifically (yet, I will)  But you agree with my assessment on his routine over setting to the edge on pass pro.  It's almost like he's not trusting his coaching, his technique and athletic ability.  Part of me would just tell him to settle down and not be so anxious to get that extra kick step if it isn't called for. 

So I'm wonder if this attempt at easing his overly quick pace out of his stance, comes across as this "psuedo-lazy" appearance from his footwork.   I admit I haven't been a fan of his waist bending this season, Hudson looks more sound pre-snap in that department.  And I'm willing to entertain that I'm spit balling at nothing here.  But like I said, just selling your assignment short gets you benched quickly.  Players on the field won't have it and they'll get in your ear before the coaches have a chance.  

Edit: the last time I ever set foot on the field as a player, something similar happened. I beat our 6'2 260lb MLB downhill a few times because he was being a bitch about taking contact.   I ended up getting shitty with him on the field then on the sideline after the series was over.  Keep in mind, this dude was 3 inches taller and 70lbs heavier than me.  He didn't do anything other than tap his chest and say 'my bad', because when the dudes you're battling with call you out, most players take it to heart.  The few others don't last very long.

 

 So I'll go back and watch for myself then come back with a better grasp of the potential issue at hand.