IMO, the Best Defensive Lines are in the Conference Championships

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

Jimmy is a clown who has 0 business owning a Football Franchise... He's failed with everything he's done.. Come on.. 10 years and one playoff appearance?... Bullshit!

Clown, maybe, maybe not.  No business owning a football team?  I didn't know there was some criteria other than having a $billion or so to throw around and get other owners to think you are OK.

 

He didn't fail at making money, so he clearly isn't a failure at everything.

[Flugel]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:12 AM, tiamat63 said:

No need to wonder - they absolutely are. 

Biggest reason is that this front office believed, with the transition to more teams being pass heavy(ier) they felt that everyone would essentially be playing the same brand of ball. 

Bills, Bengals, Bolts, Chiefs... The big 4 who only run the ball between 30-35% of the time.   The issue with this is that, when you face "lesser" teams, The Jets, ATL, Steelers, the Pats...  Teams without elite QBs are going to place a much greater emphasis on the running and play action game (naturally).  

So we've constructed a defensive roster that is susceptible at, and to, the most fundamental form of football.  

We played the Bills and Bolts to within a score, but couldn't hold them under 30.  Both teams had well above season averages in YPC against us.   We beat the Bengals game 1, admittedly without Chase. And true to formula they ran the ball better against the Browns the 2nd meeting, where we gave up almost 7ypc to Mixon.  That's damn near double his season average. 

 There is no wonder.  Whatever proof of the front offices oversight was needed has been delivered 10x over.   In attempting to fix the issues from the 2020 secondary, where we fielded the worst duo of safeties in the NFL,  they swung too far in the opposite direction and let the Dline suffer from lack of roster attention.  The difference between the two is that it's more difficult for average QBs to exploit average secondaries than it is for average offenses to exploit bottom tier defensive fronts. 

 

Life is balance. Football is balance.  Andrew Berry must, and is, pursuing that balance.

Spot on analysis and summary!  Opponents watch film to game plan for the things that are preventing the Browns from being balanced. Film doesn't lie or we'd be looking at something way better than 7 wins.

When you develop guys like DT Larry Ogunjobi (who was the 1st pick of the 3rd round at #65 overall in 2017) - ideally you don't want them/him joining the Cincinnati Bengals as early as 2021. That either means the FO was bad at projecting their prospect or the Coaching staff was incapable of training/teaching/developing him or both.  What it does mean is they wasted 4 years on a prospect for the IDL that they have to start over from scratch with. 

However, during that span - we also signed former 1st round draft pick and NFL Defensive Rookie of the year (Sheldon Richardson) in 2019.   He was one of the veteran leaders out there reminding younger teammates on the DL to get their hands up so they could bat down or deflect passes that led to intercepting Roethlisberger 5 times in the playoffs following our 11-5 record in 2020.  One problem, now 2 problems is we let both Ogunjobi AND Richardson go before the 2021 season.  This is when I read one of our FO guys saying something like "I just can't see spending a lot of money on a DT today."  I think that was on the Browns website if memory serves me right. That leaves us counting on draftees like Elliott (3rd rd 2020), Togiai (4th rd 2021), and Winfrey (4th rd 2022).  Yeah, that'll get people out to the stadium on Christmas Eve when the wind chills are 15 degrees below zero. 

How many more ways can Heaven above tell our FO that they might want to try something better than round 3 or round 4 for the IDL?  We even have a DL Coach and an Assistant DL Coach; but they're not gonna Dr Frankenstein a Raggedy Ann into an Aaron Donald.  This is where we are at today.  It's time for this FO and scouting departments to do their research.  If that's impossible - look who we need to hold accountable for once...  

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Clown, maybe, maybe not.  No business owning a football team?  I didn't know there was some criteria other than having a $billion or so to throw around and get other owners to think you are OK.

 

He didn't fail at making money, so he clearly isn't a failure at everything.

When he first came here, he learned the hard way that you can't keep firing your 3-5 year plans prematurely just 1 to 2 years into them.  He went a little Wiley Coyote with it.

The problem with that is he could be giving too much trust and loyalty to the wrong FO guys today.  It's a fine line.  Like Schwartz said in paraphrase here, learning from your mistakes is what make you better at what you do.  This is a HUGE off season for the FO.  I hope I'm wrong about them.  I've been saying that a lot in the last year for a guy that wants to be right... 

 

[nickers]

9 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Clown, maybe, maybe not.  No business owning a football team?  I didn't know there was some criteria other than having a $billion or so to throw around and get other owners to think you are OK.

 

He didn't fail at making money, so he clearly isn't a failure at everything.

He's a failure at "WINNING Franchise!"... Stop the excuses for this ass hat...

[ballpeen]

11 hours ago, nickers said:

He's a failure at "WINNING Franchise!"... Stop the excuses for this ass hat...

I am not making excuses.  I was just commenting on your statements and pointing out I disagree.  As for your comment in this post, I can't disagree.  I just don't agree he is a bad owner.

[nickers]

5 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I am not making excuses.  I was just commenting on your statements and pointing out I disagree.  As for your comment in this post, I can't disagree.  I just don't agree he is a bad owner.

You're right... He's a SHIT owner...

[Dutch Oven]

People arguing with nickers on here always reminds me of the old saying:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." 

[Orion]

Haslem and his daddy noticed that dingy old roadside truck stops were always packed with trucks.  So they bought up those dingy things and went through them, made them all shiny, new and improved. 

11 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I just don't agree he is a bad owner.

Well, he hasn't been too good.   He's systematically screwed up every part of the organization, up to and including the uniform.  And some people ain't too happy with the current DePodesta, Berry, Stef thing.  The Browns have recorded many of the worst records in the proud history of the team under his watch.  -  just sayin'.

[Flugel]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:23 PM, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Tom, we are in concert. This is why I liked Butch Davis. He wanted to murder the opposing QB, and he wanted to do it with 4 men.

For a short time, I think maybe 3 games sadly, we had a motherfucker front 4. Courtney Brown got hurt, Gerrard Warren got lazy, and dude, there was a guy whose name I forgot that was murderous. That front 4 just fell apart.

If I was a GM O would voraciously recruit theost aggressive defensive linemen.

If Garrett had 3 monsters that required double teamed, his limited, but amazing speed and foot skills would probably ly see him double or triple his sacks.

#95 Jamir Miller actually upgraded the edge rush after Courtney went down. In 2001, Miller had 13 sacks and made the Pro Bowl. 1 year later he blew out his achilles tendon in the 1st preseason game and his career ended.

Courtney got away with a lot of stuff in the Big 10 that the professional level would challenge him with.  He was a 1 gap (pick a side/olay and beat the OT with quickness) kind of guy that was very effective for the impressive sack volume and TFLs.  His big specialty being on the edge was back side clampdowns when Olines were reach blocking the other way toward the playside.  Meaning?  Nobody often blocked or hinged Courtney off so that elite quickness ran down countless tackles for losses.  When Michigan studied this up, they chose to run right AT Courtney with great success. This amounted to some long extended scoring drives. It was somewhat similar to the NYGs running the ball behind OT Jumbo Elliott right at Bruce Smith who had numerous 1 gap moves like his patented spin move, aside from the rip and swim moves.  The problem with using all those against Jumbo Elliott is that Elliott is going to feel like it's easier than Driving Miss Daisy.  The Giants set a Super Bowl record with a 75 yard TD drive that took 9:29.  They also set a Super Bowl record of possessing the ball for 40 minutes and 33 seconds.  They had drives of 11 plays and 10 plays in the 1st half and 2 drives of 14 plays in the 2nd half.  Back to Courtney, a lot of NFL offenses ran right AT Courtney like Michigan chose to do to him.

Myles Garrett can give us a great pass rush playing through the man (2 gap) or around him (1 gap), which is why he's a better pro than Courtney Brown was.  When he gets down in that stance and drives the guy in front of him all the way into the QB and then he sacks that QB too - that's some FUN stuff to witness! When it comes to who was better between Bruce Smith and Reggie White - I preferred Reggie White's game of 2 gap ragdoll the guy in front of him without slowing down while also controlling his inside and outside gaps in the process. Elite strength, quickness and explosion was packed in that 330 pound man. That said, Bruce Smith was frequently unstoppable too.  It would be nice to get some better defensive linemen to join Garrett in our front 4. If the FO neglects this again, no more scapegoats - BYE BYE FO!

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

#95 Jamir Miller actually upgraded the edge rush after Courtney went down. In 2001, Miller had 13 sacks and made the Pro Bowl. 1 year later he blew out his achilles tendon in the 1st preseason game and his career ended.

Courtney got away with a lot of stuff in the Big 10 that the professional level would challenge him with.  He was a 1 gap (pick a side/olay and beat the OT with quickness) kind of guy that was very effective for the impressive sack volume and TFLs.  His big specialty being on the edge was back side clampdowns when Olines were reach blocking the other way toward the playside.  Meaning?  Nobody often blocked or hinged Courtney off so that elite quickness ran down countless tackles for losses.  When Michigan studied this up, they chose to run right AT Courtney with great success. This amounted to some long extended scoring drives. It was somewhat similar to the NYGs running the ball behind OT Jumbo Elliott right at Bruce Smith who had numerous 1 gap moves like his patented spin move, aside from the rip and swim moves.  The problem with using all those against Jumbo Elliott is that Elliott is going to feel like it's easier than Driving Miss Daisy.  The Giants set a Super Bowl record with a 75 yard TD drive that took 9:29.  They also set a Super Bowl record of possessing the ball for 40 minutes and 33 seconds.  They had drives of 11 plays and 10 plays in the 1st half and 2 drives of 14 plays in the 2nd half.  Back to Courtney, a lot of NFL offenses ran right AT Courtney like Michigan chose to do to him.

Myles Garrett can give us a great pass rush playing through the man (2 gap) or around him (1 gap), which is why he's a better pro than Courtney Brown was.  When he gets down in that stance and drives the guy in front of him all the way into the QB and then he sacks that QB too - that's some FUN stuff to witness! When it comes to who was better between Bruce Smith and Reggie White - I preferred Reggie White's game of 2 gap ragdoll the guy in front of him without slowing down while also controlling his inside and outside gaps in the process. Elite strength, quickness and explosion was packed in that 330 pound man. That said, Bruce Smith was frequently unstoppable too.  It would be nice to get some better defensive linemen to join Garrett in our front 4. If the FO neglects this again, no more scapegoats - BYE BYE FO!

If I remember right... That was OJ.Anderson on that 75 yard drive... He was one of the best 3 yards and a cloud of dust runners I ever saw... He would've made a one Woodrow Hays proud...

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

#95 Jamir Miller actually upgraded the edge rush after Courtney went down. In 2001, Miller had 13 sacks and made the Pro Bowl. 1 year later he blew out his achilles tendon in the 1st preseason game and his career ended.

Courtney got away with a lot of stuff in the Big 10 that the professional level would challenge him with.  He was a 1 gap (pick a side/olay and beat the OT with quickness) kind of guy that was very effective for the impressive sack volume and TFLs.  His big specialty being on the edge was back side clampdowns when Olines were reach blocking the other way toward the playside.  Meaning?  Nobody often blocked or hinged Courtney off so that elite quickness ran down countless tackles for losses.  When Michigan studied this up, they chose to run right AT Courtney with great success. This amounted to some long extended scoring drives. It was somewhat similar to the NYGs running the ball behind OT Jumbo Elliott right at Bruce Smith who had numerous 1 gap moves like his patented spin move, aside from the rip and swim moves.  The problem with using all those against Jumbo Elliott is that Elliott is going to feel like it's easier than Driving Miss Daisy.  The Giants set a Super Bowl record with a 75 yard TD drive that took 9:29.  They also set a Super Bowl record of possessing the ball for 40 minutes and 33 seconds.  They had drives of 11 plays and 10 plays in the 1st half and 2 drives of 14 plays in the 2nd half.  Back to Courtney, a lot of NFL offenses ran right AT Courtney like Michigan chose to do to him.

Myles Garrett can give us a great pass rush playing through the man (2 gap) or around him (1 gap), which is why he's a better pro than Courtney Brown was.  When he gets down in that stance and drives the guy in front of him all the way into the QB and then he sacks that QB too - that's some FUN stuff to witness! When it comes to who was better between Bruce Smith and Reggie White - I preferred Reggie White's game of 2 gap ragdoll the guy in front of him without slowing down while also controlling his inside and outside gaps in the process. Elite strength, quickness and explosion was packed in that 330 pound man. That said, Bruce Smith was frequently unstoppable too.  It would be nice to get some better defensive linemen to join Garrett in our front 4. If the FO neglects this again, no more scapegoats - BYE BYE FO!

Tom, this was an excellent, excellent take. My slams on "Mild" Garrett have never discounted his obvious elite skill set. I have always believed that if the Browns had a couple.more headaches on the DL, Garrett would literally rise to the level of QB terrorist.

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, nickers said:

If I remember right... That was OJ.Anderson on that 75 yard drive... He was one of the best 3 yards and a cloud of dust runners I ever saw... He would've made a one Woodrow Hays proud...

Good memory!  He was actually the MVP of the Super Bowl with 21 carries for 102 yards and 1 TD.  

[Flugel]

37 minutes ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Tom, this was an excellent, excellent take. My slams on "Mild" Garrett have never discounted his obvious elite skill set. I have always believed that if the Browns had a couple.more headaches on the DL, Garrett would literally rise to the level of QB terrorist.

Thanks - I appreciate that Tom. I was worried I was going to put everyone to sleep.

I think Garrett gets frustrated with the lack of urgency from the top to get the right attack pieces in place on the Defensive Line.  Despite that reality, the FO and coaches want/need him to be a leader which looks hard for him to do when he's flustered most of the games. I have a feeling his leadership will improve if/when the FO takes the DL more seriously in the off-season.  He trains his ass off; so he wants it to mean something on the scoreboard.