IMO, the Best Defensive Lines are in the Conference Championships

[Flugel]

While our FO didn't think it was important to prioritize DTs/IDL I watched some very impressive Defensive fronts dominate their opponents this weekend.  Let's hope our FO is watching the obvious unfold.

Cincy's front 4 took Buffalo's home field advantage on TURF; and held Buffalo to just 10 points. One would have thought Buffalo was the team missing 3 starters on their Offensive Line. There's not a lot of big/glamorous names on Cincy's DL; but then again that stuff is never necessary for blue collar work success. Cincy had 14 points on the board while Buffalo's offense started the game with 2 or 3 consecutive 3 and outs.  While Buffalo's OL was being dominated - they couldn't run or pass. That type of thing is what Schwartz was talking about with the winning upfront setting up the blitzing on our terms.  Here's the front 4 for Cincy: DTs/IDL: BJ Hill and DJ Reader and DEs: Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard.  

The other AFC Team left had the best winning percentage in the conference.  Here's the front 4 personnel the Chiefs use in their rotation: DEs: Mike Danna, Frank Clark, George Karlaftis, Carlos Dunlap: DTs/IDL: Chris Jones, Derrick Nnadi, Khalen Saunders, and Brandon Williams.  Their DC Steve Spagnuolo likes to add the wrinkle of moving Chris Jones around. I included this group which may invite some disagreement; because they're very solid and opportunistic of the margin of error Patrick Mahomes and the offense gives them.  The front gets even better when they have a lead with their DC playing gridiron chess.  

Philly's Defense dominated the Giants; and it all started upfront. Here's their front 4 - DEs/Edge: Brandon Graham, Josh Sweat, DTs: Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave.  Having said that, here's some depth they look to frequently: DEs/EDGE: Robert Quinn; DTs: Jordan Davis, N. Suh, Linval Joseph, Milton Williams to name a few.  They also had former 1st round DE Derek Barnett on IR.  They're loaded and they prevented the Giants from doing everything they wanted to.

SF also has a defensive line that sets up productivity for their 2nd and 3rd tiers.  DEs: Nick Bosa and Samson Ebukam, DTs/IDL: Javon Kinlaw and Arik Armstead.  They're a big reason this team is in another Conference Championship.  MLB Fred Warner is one of the best all around LBers I've seen this year.  I'm sure he's very appreciative of their efforts; because his play defines opportunistic.  

Again, I hope our FO is watching because they have a lot to learn about how important the men up front are...

[tiamat63]

Fun fact. 

There are more 1st round IDL alone 

- Armstead 

- Davis & Cox 

- Chris Jones 

....  Than there are 1st round DB's between the 4 remaining playoff teams. 

 

- Jimmie Ward.  30th overall from 2014.  

 

This is not counting 1st round edge players ...

- Brandon Graham 

- Joey Bosa 

 

... Who also out' number 1st round DBs. 

 

[Bob806]

20 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Fun fact. 

There are more 1st round IDL alone 

- Armstead 

- Davis & Cox 

- Chris Jones 

....  Than there are 1st round DB's between the 4 remaining playoff teams. 

 

- Jimmie Ward.  30th overall from 2014.  

 

This is not counting 1st round edge players ...

- Brandon Graham 

- Joey Bosa 

 

... Who also out' number 1st round DBs. 

 

That's very interesting. 

Ok, the Browns have obviously invested heavily through the draft on DBs of late. I'm wondering if the analytic team sees a take/fact like this and mulls it over. 

Every team has to make tough choices in the salary cap era, but the Browns let go of some decent DTs like Ogunjobi & Richardson. I wonder if they'll re evaluate/prioritize the IDL now.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

I wonder if they'll re evaluate/prioritize the IDL now.

No need to wonder - they absolutely are. 

Biggest reason is that this front office believed, with the transition to more teams being pass heavy(ier) they felt that everyone would essentially be playing the same brand of ball. 

Bills, Bengals, Bolts, Chiefs... The big 4 who only run the ball between 30-35% of the time.   The issue with this is that, when you face "lesser" teams, The Jets, ATL, Steelers, the Pats...  Teams without elite QBs are going to place a much greater emphasis on the running and play action game (naturally).  

So we've constructed a defensive roster that is susceptible at, and to, the most fundamental form of football.  

We played the Bills and Bolts to within a score, but couldn't hold them under 30.  Both teams had well above season averages in YPC against us.   We beat the Bengals game 1, admittedly without Chase. And true to formula they ran the ball better against the Browns the 2nd meeting, where we gave up almost 7ypc to Mixon.  That's damn near double his season average. 

 There is no wonder.  Whatever proof of the front offices oversight was needed has been delivered 10x over.   In attempting to fix the issues from the 2020 secondary, where we fielded the worst duo of safeties in the NFL,  they swung too far in the opposite direction and let the Dline suffer from lack of roster attention.  The difference between the two is that it's more difficult for average QBs to exploit average secondaries than it is for average offenses to exploit bottom tier defensive fronts. 

 

Life is balance. Football is balance.  Andrew Berry must, and is, pursuing that balance.

[nickers]

18 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

No need to wonder - they absolutely are. 

Biggest reason is that this front office believed, with the transition to more teams being pass heavy(ier) they felt that everyone would essentially be playing the same brand of ball. 

Bills, Bengals, Bolts, Chiefs... The big 4 who only run the ball between 30-35% of the time.   The issue with this is that, when you face "lesser" teams, The Jets, ATL, Steelers, the Pats...  Teams without elite QBs are going to place a much greater emphasis on the running and play action game (naturally).  

So we've constructed a defensive roster that is susceptible at, and to, the most fundamental form of football.  

We played the Bills and Bolts to within a score, but couldn't hold them under 30.  Both teams had well above season averages in YPC against us.   We beat the Bengals game 1, admittedly without Chase. And true to formula they ran the ball better against the Browns the 2nd meeting, where we gave up almost 7ypc to Mixon.  That's damn near double his season average. 

 There is no wonder.  Whatever proof of the front offices oversight was needed has been delivered 10x over.   In attempting to fix the issues from the 2020 secondary, where we fielded the worst duo of safeties in the NFL,  they swung too far in the opposite direction and let the Dline suffer from lack of roster attention.  The difference between the two is that it's more difficult for average QBs to exploit average secondaries than it is for average offenses to exploit bottom tier defensive fronts. 

 

Life is balance. Football is balance.  Andrew Berry must, and is, pursuing that balance.

And Berry has yet to have any draft picks as a Pro Bowl Selection...   I'd say he's done a shit job so far... I don't think Berry has any clue what balance is...

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

And Berry has yet to have any draft picks as a Pro Bowl Selection...   I'd say he's done a shit job so far... I don't think Berry has any clue what balance is...

Pro bowl players are nice. But there haven't been any crash and burn type flops either. Yes, that includes Jed.  Something Berry's predecessors cannot claim. 

Newsome and Emerson were both in the running for DROTY honors.  If not for Sauce Gardner and Aiden Hutchison, Em would have had a much stronger consideration.   Not bad when you consider both of them were top 5 picks and M.E. was a 3rd rounder. 

We had a 5th rounder in Nick Harris slated to be our starting center. And credit to Berry and Callahan for their work bringing in Pocic who was something of a revelation. His build is why I think they targeting Deaton so late in the draft - similar physical mold. 

Have there been fire works? No.  But there hasn't been flames either. 

Not every bit, even the 1st rounders, is a pro bowl player.  And that's fine as well. Every roster in the NFL has good football players who belong and play at a professional level who might not receive that recognition.  A great type of example was a Tour (god rest him) favorite - John Greco.  Dude was routinely one of the most consistent and dependable lineman on an offense front built with Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Bito and Schwartz.    He was the odd man out, but damn was he good at his job.  If not for the other players around him, likely would have garnered more pro bowl type nods. 

Point being, having some stars is a big deal, but have productive players at every level of the roster to support your stars might be an even bigger deal.  And to an extent, Berry has done an alright job at that.  If we hit on some Dline prospects this draft and in free agency, who might not be spectacular but are capable NFL starters, then that's the infusion of talent this roster needs.   It also means your team rarely has imbalance of performance as well, and that too means a great deal. 

 

[nickers]

41 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Pro bowl players are nice. But there haven't been any crash and burn type flops either. Yes, that includes Jed.  Something Berry's predecessors cannot claim. 

Newsome and Emerson were both in the running for DROTY honors.  If not for Sauce Gardner and Aiden Hutchison, Em would have had a much stronger consideration.   Not bad when you consider both of them were top 5 picks and M.E. was a 3rd rounder. 

We had a 5th rounder in Nick Harris slated to be our starting center. And credit to Berry and Callahan for their work bringing in Pocic who was something of a revelation. His build is why I think they targeting Deaton so late in the draft - similar physical mold. 

Have there been fire works? No.  But there hasn't been flames either. 

Not every bit, even the 1st rounders, is a pro bowl player.  And that's fine as well. Every roster in the NFL has good football players who belong and play at a professional level who might not receive that recognition.  A great type of example was a Tour (god rest him) favorite - John Greco.  Dude was routinely one of the most consistent and dependable lineman on an offense front built with Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Bito and Schwartz.    He was the odd man out, but damn was he good at his job.  If not for the other players around him, likely would have garnered more pro bowl type nods. 

Point being, having some stars is a big deal, but have productive players at every level of the roster to support your stars might be an even bigger deal.  And to an extent, Berry has done an alright job at that.  If we hit on some Dline prospects this draft and in free agency, who might not be spectacular but are capable NFL starters, then that's the infusion of talent this roster needs.   It also means your team rarely has imbalance of performance as well, and that too means a great deal. 

 

Having stars is one thing.. if you gottem.. great... if not,this is why coaching is important too..... While the Pro Bowl can be misconstrued as a measuring stick.. its one readily available... I

ll still say he's got a lot to learn...

[gumby73]

This weekend.. I'd even flip to another broadcast, airing Booger McFarland's sideline boogie board to watch the inside trench warfare episodes of this weekend...

It's going to be war-daddy's vs Hog Mollies 👀  💪

still don't like the starting time slots... 😇 but

edit-- not to get off topic..but I can't see how to pay Pocic.. The cheapest tag is a punter.. We have our punter 1 more season.. If Center's fall under O-linemen? Tag is 16M.. Pocic is the 45th highest paid Center behind Deaton & Harris..at age 27..Paying 5.5M would get Pocic to around 26th highest C

[Flugel]

20 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Fun fact. 

There are more 1st round IDL alone 

- Armstead 

- Davis & Cox 

- Chris Jones 

....  Than there are 1st round DB's between the 4 remaining playoff teams. 

 

- Jimmie Ward.  30th overall from 2014.  

 

This is not counting 1st round edge players ...

- Brandon Graham 

- Joey Bosa 

 

... Who also out' number 1st round DBs. 

 

Good stuff T!  Believe it or not, Chris Jones wasn't drafted until round 2 (37th overall). However, the Chiefs also drafted DE George Karlaftis out of Purdue in round 1 (22nd overall).

Another 1st round IDL to add: SF DT Javon Kinlaw was a 1st round pick at 20th overall. Adding him to the guys you mentioned above (Armstead and Bosa) - that's 3 1st round picks SF invested in upfront.  Kind of makes sense when their GM John Lynch played on a Super Bowl Champion in Tampa with guys like Warren Sapp, Booger McFarland and Simeon Rice upfront.  They also drafted Solomon Thomas in round 1 (#3 overall) in 2017; but he never matched the expectation there or with the Raiders.  Today, he is backup with the Jets playing well in their rotation for his old Defensive Coach and current Head Coach - Robert Saleh.

Philly DE Derek Barnett who was on IR this year was also a 1st round pick.  Having said that, their preseason roster listed Haason Reddick as a DE/OLB (with a mention he had 23.5 sacks in the previous 2 seasons before joining Philly). He was a 1st round pick (17th overall) for Arizona.  This past weekend, poor Daniel Jones felt like Reddick was part of his uniform as Reddick had 1.5 sacks and multiple pressures.  Reddick finished the regular season with 16 sacks.  Not bad for a 6'1" 240 lb guy out of Temple.  

I'm kind of shocked at how unheralded the Defensive Front in Cincy remains.  Think back to our 2nd matchup with Cincy when DJ Reader and their DL dominated our OL.  Fast forward to this past weekend, that DL dominated Buffalo's OL holding them to just 10 points while Burrow put 14 points on the board in Cincy's first 2 possessions alone. Here's the thing - DEs Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard are 3rd round draft picks; while DT B.J. Hill is a 3rd round pick and DT/IDL D.J. Reader was a 5th round pick. All that said, Sam Hubbard was the only one of those guys that was drafted by the Bengals.  I'm guessing those are big reasons why people are overlooking them.  The potential GOOD NEWS in their story for us is that it should show our FO they can get some very good help in rounds 2 and 3 as well as FA/trade.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Good stuff T!  Believe it or not, Chris Jones wasn't drafted until round 2 (37th overall). However, the Chiefs also drafted DE George Karlaftis out of Purdue in round 1 (22nd overall).

Another 1st round IDL to add: SF DT Javon Kinlaw was a 1st round pick at 20th overall. Adding him to the guys you mentioned above (Armstead and Bosa) - that's 3 1st round picks SF invested in upfront.  Kind of makes sense when their GM John Lynch played on a Super Bowl Champion in Tampa with guys like Warren Sapp, Booger McFarland and Simeon Rice upfront.  They also drafted Solomon Thomas in round 1 (#3 overall) in 2017; but he never matched the expectation there or with the Raiders.  Today, he is backup with the Jets playing well in their rotation for his old Defensive Coach and current Head Coach - Robert Saleh.

Philly DE Derek Barnett who was on IR this year was also a 1st round pick.  Having said that, their preseason roster listed Haason Reddick as a DE/OLB (with a mention he had 23.5 sacks in the previous 2 seasons before joining Philly). He was a 1st round pick (17th overall) for Arizona.  This past weekend, poor Daniel Jones felt like Reddick was part of his uniform as Reddick had 1.5 sacks and multiple pressures.  Reddick finished the regular season with 16 sacks.  Not bad for a 6'1" 240 lb guy out of Temple.  

I'm kind of shocked at how unheralded the Defensive Front in Cincy remains.  Think back to our 2nd matchup with Cincy when DJ Reader and their DL dominated our OL.  Fast forward to this past weekend, that DL dominated Buffalo's OL holding them to just 10 points while Burrow put 14 points on the board in Cincy's first 2 possessions alone. Here's the thing - DEs Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard are 3rd round draft picks; while DT B.J. Hill is a 3rd round pick and DT/IDL D.J. Reader was a 5th round pick. All that said, Sam Hubbard was the only one of those guys that was drafted by the Bengals.  I'm guessing those are big reasons why people are overlooking them.  The potential GOOD NEWS in their story for us is that it should show our FO they can get some very good help in rounds 2 and 3 as well as FA/trade.

 

Appreciate the correction, I was going off memory and should have searched a bit to confirm. 

Ultimately your point, and the greater one at hand, is pretty clearly made in the numbers.  The final four have put more resources into building their defensive fronts than their defensive backfields.  Highlighting the misbelief that these positions can be manned with below average talent, yet wanting maximum results. 

 

Reader is a difference maker, and was a late round pick. Hendrickson and Hubbard are an under-appreciated duo, only drafted mid round. They are a very complete defensive line.  Something the CLE brass needs to strive for.  

 

 

[gumby73]

8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Reader is a difference maker, and was a late round pick. Hendrickson and Hubbard are an under-appreciated duo, only drafted mid round. They are a very complete defensive line.  Something the CLE brass needs to strive for. 

The guy that's impressing me is behind Reader.. MLB 6'2 250lbs of Germaine Pratt.. NC State's 3rd rounder.. Pratt still gets no credit for his gap plug that stopped Baltimore's running back before Hubbard gets to the fumble or strip.. CLE brass/Schwartz needs to get some weight on our MLB'ers 

[ballpeen]

Good stuff Flugs.  I hope to read a lot more football posts over the offseason.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:07 AM, Flugel said:

While our FO didn't think it was important to prioritize DTs/IDL I watched some very impressive Defensive fronts dominate their opponents this weekend.  Let's hope our FO is watching the obvious unfold.

Cincy's front 4 took Buffalo's home field advantage on TURF; and held Buffalo to just 10 points. One would have thought Buffalo was the team missing 3 starters on their Offensive Line. There's not a lot of big/glamorous names on Cincy's DL; but then again that stuff is never necessary for blue collar work success. Cincy had 14 points on the board while Buffalo's offense started the game with 2 or 3 consecutive 3 and outs.  While Buffalo's OL was being dominated - they couldn't run or pass. That type of thing is what Schwartz was talking about with the winning upfront setting up the blitzing on our terms.  Here's the front 4 for Cincy: DTs/IDL: BJ Hill and DJ Reader and DEs: Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard.  

The other AFC Team left had the best winning percentage in the conference.  Here's the front 4 personnel the Chiefs use in their rotation: DEs: Mike Danna, Frank Clark, George Karlaftis, Carlos Dunlap: DTs/IDL: Chris Jones, Derrick Nnadi, Khalen Saunders, and Brandon Williams.  Their DC Steve Spagnuolo likes to add the wrinkle of moving Chris Jones around. I included this group which may invite some disagreement; because they're very solid and opportunistic of the margin of error Patrick Mahomes and the offense gives them.  The front gets even better when they have a lead with their DC playing gridiron chess.  

Philly's Defense dominated the Giants; and it all started upfront. Here's their front 4 - DEs/Edge: Brandon Graham, Josh Sweat, DTs: Fletcher Cox and Javon Hargrave.  Having said that, here's some depth they look to frequently: DEs/EDGE: Robert Quinn; DTs: Jordan Davis, N. Suh, Linval Joseph, Milton Williams to name a few.  They also had former 1st round DE Derek Barnett on IR.  They're loaded and they prevented the Giants from doing everything they wanted to.

SF also has a defensive line that sets up productivity for their 2nd and 3rd tiers.  DEs: Nick Bosa and Samson Ebukam, DTs/IDL: Javon Kinlaw and Arik Armstead.  They're a big reason this team is in another Conference Championship.  MLB Fred Warner is one of the best all around LBers I've seen this year.  I'm sure he's very appreciative of their efforts; because his play defines opportunistic.  

Again, I hope our FO is watching because they have a lot to learn about how important the men up front are...

Tom, we are in concert. This is why I liked Butch Davis. He wanted to murder the opposing QB, and he wanted to do it with 4 men.

For a short time, I think maybe 3 games sadly, we had a motherfucker front 4. Courtney Brown got hurt, Gerrard Warren got lazy, and dude, there was a guy whose name I forgot that was murderous. That front 4 just fell apart.

If I was a GM O would voraciously recruit theost aggressive defensive linemen.

If Garrett had 3 monsters that required double teamed, his limited, but amazing speed and foot skills would probably ly see him double or triple his sacks.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Tom, we are in concert. This is why I liked Butch Davis. He wanted to murder the opposing QB, and he wanted to do it with 4 men.

For a short time, I think maybe 3 games sadly, we had a motherfucker front 4. Courtney Brown got hurt, Gerrard Warren got lazy, and dude, there was a guy whose name I forgot that was murderous. That front 4 just fell apart.

If I was a GM O would voraciously recruit theost aggressive defensive linemen.

If Garrett had 3 monsters that required double teamed, his limited, but amazing speed and foot skills would probably ly see him double or triple his sacks.

Butch Davis is also the reason we lost to Shittsburgh with a 20 some point lead at the half in the playoffs..... Then Butchie took the game away from then DC Foge Fazio then went complete prevent D... Fuck Butch Davis... he was a fucking clown!

 

And a coward when he quit on the team...

[Orion]

On 1/25/2023 at 8:07 AM, Flugel said:

our FO didn't think it was important to prioritize DTs/IDL

We can't look past the fact that they DID draft IDL.  Elliot, Togiai, Wnfrey.  The expectation was that it was time for the first two to take that step forward.  Well, they didn't.  We all found that out (just like Berry & Stef did).  And Winfrey spent half the season in the dog house....but he was a rookie so incredible things weren't really expected from him.  Add to that the fact that they lost all kinds of MLB'ers, and JKO.   Let's see what they do there this offseason.

 

30 minutes ago, nickers said:

Fuck Butch Davis... he was a fucking clown!

And a coward when he quit on the team...

I didn't like Butch.  He was a liar....and he passed on Richard Seymore.   But let's cut him a little slack about quitting the team.  Things were snowballing, he was under a lot of stress...and it caused him emotional/health problems.  He HAD to step away.  I don't wish emotional health issues on anyone.

[nickers]

21 minutes ago, Orion said:

We can't look past the fact that they DID draft IDL.  Elliot, Togiai, Wnfrey.  The expectation was that it was time for the first two to take that step forward.  Well, they didn't.  We all found that out (just like Berry & Stef did).  And Winfrey spent half the season in the dog house....but he was a rookie so incredible things weren't really expected from him.  Add to that the fact that they lost all kinds of MLB'ers, and JKO.   Let's see what they do there this offseason.

 

I didn't like Butch.  He was a liar....and he passed on Richard Seymore.   But let's cut him a little slack about quitting the team.  Things were snowballing, he was under a lot of stress...and it caused him emotional/health problems.  He HAD to step away.  I don't wish emotional health issues on anyone.

I don't wish bad health on anyone but fuck Butchie... He was a control freak and a failure for Cleveland.. He wanted to control how the field even looked then Al Lerner finally told him to "Shut up and coach the team"

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Tom, we are in concert. This is why I liked Butch Davis. He wanted to murder the opposing QB, and he wanted to do it with 4 men.

For a short time, I think maybe 3 games sadly, we had a motherfucker front 4. Courtney Brown got hurt, Gerrard Warren got lazy, and dude, there was a guy whose name I forgot that was murderous. That front 4 just fell apart.

If I was a GM O would voraciously recruit theost aggressive defensive linemen.

If Garrett had 3 monsters that required double teamed, his limited, but amazing speed and foot skills would probably ly see him double or triple his sacks.

I may not be on board with this thinking.  To me, it seems that Joe Woods liked to build his D from the back end forward.  I don't think it was the FO as much as it was Woods who didn't put a premium on interior defenders.  Let's see what sort of premium is placed on interior defends now that Schwartz is the DC.  I suspect we will see emphasis on this in both FA and the draft.

 

To me, Berry has shown a willingness to work with his coaches and get what they say they need.  No doubt there are times where he has to look at value in the pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if we drafted 2 DT's this go, and if we even have the ability to make a splash hire in FA, it will be along the d line.

[Flugel]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

We can't look past the fact that they DID draft IDL.  Elliot, Togiai, Wnfrey.  The expectation was that it was time for the first two to take that step forward.  Well, they didn't.  We all found that out (just like Berry & Stef did).  And Winfrey spent half the season in the dog house....but he was a rookie so incredible things weren't really expected from him.  Add to that the fact that they lost all kinds of MLB'ers, and JKO.   Let's see what they do there this offseason.

 

All true; but there's a difference between just drafting a position and making that position more of a priority in the draft.  Elliott was in the 3rd round while both Togiai and Winfrey were in the 4th round.  With that goes the ole - you gotta let these kind of guys develop for 2-3 years before one asks the question "why are we still square pegging a round hole with a guy like Elliott in lieu of upgrading him?"  We got what we paid for against the run in 2022 so let's hope it increased the awareness about improving the IDL this off season.

[calfoxwc]

18 hours ago, gumby73 said:

The guy that's impressing me is behind Reader.. MLB 6'2 250lbs of Germaine Pratt.. NC State's 3rd rounder.. Pratt still gets no credit for his gap plug that stopped Baltimore's running back before Hubbard gets to the fumble or strip.. CLE brass/Schwartz needs to get some weight on our MLB'ers 

I don't know. But Ray Lewis played at 240 lbs, JOK is 220. The ratbirds had a terrific DL. Jack Lambert back in the day played at about 223 lbs. But he had a teriffic dline ahead of him, too. With JOK's injuries - I don't know if he got heavier it would prevent that. OTH, D'Quell Jackson, former Browns lb says JOK isn't a lb, except on passing downs. The Browns lb's are getting hammered.

   I'll say it just once more - Jordan Davis would have sure looked good on the IDL of the Browns. There is Jalen Carter - who would be a GREAT pick in the first round, but........no pick.

  There IS, however, Calijah Kancey. Of Pitt. But Kiper, (yeah, I know) has Kancey going in the first round now. Kancey is only 6' or so, and 280 lbs. But at DL, he has the leverage, quickness and power to get sacks and disrupt plays. Maybe Like a poor man's Aaron Donald.

   Kiper's draft has the Eagles picking Kancey in the first round to play next to Davis next season.

I don't know.

[Flugel]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:09 AM, tiamat63 said:

 

Appreciate the correction, I was going off memory and should have searched a bit to confirm. 

Ultimately your point, and the greater one at hand, is pretty clearly made in the numbers.  The final four have put more resources into building their defensive fronts than their defensive backfields.  Highlighting the misbelief that these positions can be manned with below average talent, yet wanting maximum results. 

 

Reader is a difference maker, and was a late round pick. Hendrickson and Hubbard are an under-appreciated duo, only drafted mid round. They are a very complete defensive line.  Something the CLE brass needs to strive for.  

 

 

With all the research you do for this board don't even worry that at all.  The only reason I mentioned he was a 2nd round pick is because that is where our 1st selection takes place in this year's draft.  Wouldn't it be awesome kicking off our draft by adding a talent like that for our IDL?

You make some great points above!

[Bob806]

15 hours ago, nickers said:

Butch Davis is also the reason we lost to Shittsburgh with a 20 some point lead at the half in the playoffs..... Then Butchie took the game away from then DC Foge Fazio then went complete prevent D... Fuck Butch Davis... he was a fucking clown!

 

 

Butch also fell in love with Kelly Holcomb because he threw for 400+ yards vs the Steelers' backups in a playoff game. Tim Couch poured his heart & soul into the team and was turned into an afterthought. 

[syd]

On 1/25/2023 at 5:07 AM, Flugel said:

Here's their front 4

i thought they ran a 5 man front

[Orion]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

but there's a difference between just drafting a position and making that position more of a priority in the draft.  Elliott was in the 3rd round while both Togiai and Winfrey were in the 4th round.  With that goes the ole - you gotta let these kind of guys develop for 2-3 years before one asks the question

Yup.  And the question has been answered in one or two cases.  The best we can do this year is a second rounder.  And they can't just pinpoint DT for that pick because, to some degree, you have to pick the most talented player available.  Obviously we wouldn't draft a QB, RB, LG, etc. with that pick.  FA comes first.  I expect something to happen along the DLine in FA.

[Dutch Oven]

4 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Butch also fell in love with Kelly Holcomb because he threw for 400+ yards vs the Steelers' backups in a playoff game. Tim Couch poured his heart & soul into the team and was turned into an afterthought. 

And he turned out to be correct turning Couch into an afterthought, sadly enough, because Couch was well out of the NFL by the time he was in his late 20s. 

[gumby73]

5 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

But Ray Lewis played at 240 lbs, JOK is 220. The ratbirds had a terrific DL. Jack Lambert back in the day played at about 223 lbs. But he had a teriffic dline ahead of him, too. With JOK's injuries - I don't know if he got heavier it would prevent that. OTH, D'Quell Jackson, former Browns lb says JOK isn't a lb, except on passing downs. The Browns lb's are getting hammered.

clarification...

I don't mind Outside Linebackers in today's times/game, built able to run with guys at 225/230lbs.. 

MLB/ILB.. with no support in front of them(DT's)... imo, need bigger 230-245lbs. body frames to hold up a season with any luck  

most successful built rosters today will show signs of this in their LB groups

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

Yup.  And the question has been answered in one or two cases.  The best we can do this year is a second rounder.  And they can't just pinpoint DT for that pick because, to some degree, you have to pick the most talented player available.  Obviously we wouldn't draft a QB, RB, LG, etc. with that pick.  FA comes first.  I expect something to happen along the DLine in FA.

If you're losing games and an entire LBer Corps to injuries (plus their backups) because your IDL is horrible - I don't see how you can look anywhere else.  You can get some very good DTs in round 2; especially since round 1 is usually for QBs, LTs, WRs, Edge Rushers, Corners, and other skill positions.   Round 2 for DTs is like an extension of round 1 just like it is for RBs in the sense that the first run on these positions is delayed. A guy that came up earlier in this thread is KC DT Chris Jones. He is an All Pro this year - and he's made 4 Pro Bowls since being drafted in the 2nd round as well as being a 2nd team All Pro 3 times.  

If we have a competent FO - this shouldn't seem impossible at all. 

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

23 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I may not be on board with this thinking.  To me, it seems that Joe Woods liked to build his D from the back end forward.  I don't think it was the FO as much as it was Woods who didn't put a premium on interior defenders.  Let's see what sort of premium is placed on interior defends now that Schwartz is the DC.  I suspect we will see emphasis on this in both FA and the draft.

 

To me, Berry has shown a willingness to work with his coaches and get what they say they need.  No doubt there are times where he has to look at value in the pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if we drafted 2 DT's this go, and if we even have the ability to make a splash hire in FA, it will be along the d line.

Fair and astute assessment. If we are being honest none of us knows what goes on in the FO.

Woods is gone, and our defense sucked. That much none of us can argue. Was he a Scapegoat and a way for the FO  to not have to admit they were wrong? It doesn't matter. We are moving forward, so I have abandoned my skepticism and look forward to seeing the Browns be successful.

[nickers]

5 minutes ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Fair and astute assessment. If we are being honest none of us knows what goes on in the FO.

Woods is gone, and our defense sucked. That much none of us can argue. Was he a Scapegoat and a way for the FO  to not have to admit they were wrong? It doesn't matter. We are moving forward, so I have abandoned my skepticism and look forward to seeing the Browns be successful.

The only way that can happen is for Haslam to admit failure and sell the franchise...

[ballpeen]

46 minutes ago, nickers said:

The only way that can happen is for Haslam to admit failure and sell the franchise...

Why?

 

I might be able to understand that Haslam may have been too active early in his ownership, but I don't see that the last several years.  At least any more than any other owner.  Let's face it, if you, I, or anyone else in here owned the team, we would probably be fairly active in running the team.  Shit, we would be running drafts and in some cases even try to coach the team...lol.

I just think back to Randy Lerner, who didn't give a shit.  He was like Little Georgie Porgie eating his Pudding and Pie. That guy never had to work at anything.  At least Jimmy turned his fathers 5-6 gas stations in to something else, and he gives a shit.

The guy isn't perfect, but other than me, who is?  LOL  (joke)

Jimmy may have his issues depending on who you talk to, but I don't think anybody can say he doesn't care.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

Why?

 

I might be able to understand that Haslam may have been too active early in his ownership, but I don't see that the last several years.  At least any more than any other owner.  Let's face it, if you, I, or anyone else in here owned the team, we would probably be fairly active in running the team.  Shit, we would be running drafts and in some cases even try to coach the team...lol.

I just think back to Randy Lerner, who didn't give a shit.  He was like Little Georgie Porgie eating his Pudding and Pie. That guy never had to work at anything.  At least Jimmy turned his fathers 5-6 gas stations in to something else, and he gives a shit.

The guy isn't perfect, but other than me, who is?  LOL  (joke)

Jimmy may have his issues depending on who you talk to, but I don't think anybody can say he doesn't care.

Jimmy is a clown who has 0 business owning a Football Franchise... He's failed with everything he's done.. Come on.. 10 years and one playoff appearance?... Bullshit!