Elijah Moore, Njoku, other Thoughts

[jiggins7919]

We were finally on the other side of some coverage busts and I can't TELL you how good it felt to see OUR guys wide ass open down the field, instead of the opposite we saw last year a few times. Big plays, splash plays, down the field scoring is something that's eluded us for quite some time. Yes, we missed Marquis down the field 2-3 times week 1, but it was straight up WET. 

Anyway, I wanted to talk about Elijah Moore and really how disappointed I am with how we're using him and also his lack of vision and patience. Moore has terrific hands, is a quality route runner, and can play exclusively as a WR and not just some gadget guy. I love figuring out ways to get him involved offensively, especially with Saint Nick out, but he's so much "Moore" than some random dude who thrives on 3-4 gadget type plays. 

Additionally, when Moore HAS gotten the ball, he hasn't flashed great speed and his field vision rivals Stevie Wonder. For example, we had a DYNAMITE screen pass set up early and had THREE blockers on the right side for ONE guy. All Moore had to do was wait for the block OR go outside to sideline. If it's not a TD it's 40 YARDS, MINIMUM. What's he do? He catches it and runs inside the blockers, right in front of the one effing guy who could trip him up. It made no sense and his blockers were pissed. Moore can't break a tackle, has very little wiggle, and doesn't turn it up field to get 2-3 yards on his runs. He runs horizontally and goes out of bounds. Don't get it. Throw him the ball in the intermediate area of the field, use him as a WR, and turn him loose. Oh, and don't fumble the damn ball. 

I realize Njoku has become a solid blocker now, but are we really paying big bucks for a guy to block? Njoku's average depth of target goes about as deep as an Asian porn star. I don't get it. EVERY throw to David is basically 2 yards. Now, we did call the perfect screen Sunday that should have gone for 30-40 yards, but effing Pocic freaking whiffed (again btw) and let the ONE guy through. Go look at that play. I I'm not exaggerating. Why aren't we getting the ball to Njoku? 

Fumbles. I'm done with them. We HAVE to be the absolute worst team in history at recovering fumbles and fumbling the ball. It literally lost us the game last week. Virtually ALL of our players hold it like a loaf of bread. Go watch Watson's excellent designed run that got us to 1st and goal. He's holding it outside his body in between 4 defenders. Go watch DPJ on his awful punt returns...even worse. Our guys don't secure the ball and our coaches wonder why Njoku fumbles, Ford fumbles, Watson multiple times including the loss and a crucial 4th down, Moore fumbled it, and I'm probably missing someone.

The flip side is even worse. We hardly EVER force a fumble, and if we do, we never get it! How is that possible? If we fumble, the other team gets it. If we force a fumble, the other team gets it. The fumbling HAS to stop if this team wants to do ANYTHING in the AFC. We should be 3-0 but we're losing the turnover battle EVERY week. That's not a recipe for winning and I hope we clean it up stat. Our defense is GOOD but it's not great (yet). There's film on us, we play some good teams soon, and eventually the damn will break. We'll HAVE to win the turnover battle if we're going to make some noise, and we're also going to need some defensive tds to win these tough games. 

[Bob806]

Regarding Njoku, I tend to agree. I think he could be a valuable weapon in the passing game. Maybe the staff thinks he's more valuable blocking, since our O line is having troubles in pass protection.

Elijah Moore...it's probably too soon to panic but yes, he definitely took the wrong angle on the screen vs Tenn. I don't know if you were in the stadium, but you could hear the place groan, that was hideous.

[Orion]

I don't like that they use that little guy Moore as a runner.  There is no way that he's ever going to break a tackle.  He's more apt to break his leg.  Now, I like him as a receiver.  He seems to catch the ball....but he shouldn't be trying to fight for extra yards.  As we saw, someone will just take the ball away from him.  Use him as a Wes Welker if you like...but not as some magical gadget guy.

[nickers]

14 minutes ago, Orion said:

I don't like that they use that little guy Moore as a runner.  There is no way that he's ever going to break a tackle.  He's more apt to break his leg.  Now, I like him as a receiver.  He seems to catch the ball....but he shouldn't be trying to fight for extra yards.  As we saw, someone will just take the ball away from him.  Use him as a Wes Welker if you like...but not as some magical gadget guy.

I'm not down on Moore yet... Kevin needs to put him in better , effective situations.. This RB crap is a waste of FT...

[Orion]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

I'm not down on Moore

At 15 receptions he's only two behind the team leader, Cooper.  And 10 more than DPW, who's 4th.  Njoku has 10.

5 catches per game isn't bad.  Watson's not afraid to throw to him.  He's gotta be doing something right.

[jiggins7919]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:01 PM, nickers said:

I'm not down on Moore yet... Kevin needs to put him in better , effective situations.. This RB crap is a waste of FT...

Definitely not down on him, other than the atrocious fumble, but don't like how we're using him. We need to get more throws to our WRs not named Cooper. 

[Dutch Oven]

Rumors and conjecture have named the Browns as a possibly landing spot for WR Davante Adams of the Las Vegas Raiders if they were to trade him. 

Apparently he's not really happy in the Sin City. 

[syd]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:01 PM, nickers said:

This RB crap is a waste of FT...

let me dummy this down for you nickers,you know without pre season it is kinda tough to have some sort of chemistry !(you say you are a musician,then you must know it doe's not happen over night,it takes time) you need more than practice,Gotta play live sometimes it takes time to develop

[Unsympathetic]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

have named the Browns as a possibly landing spot for WR Davante Adams

Davante this year is 20M off next year's cap.  I get that's just a rumor, but.. No.

[Dutch Oven]

27 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Davante this year is 20M off next year's cap.  I get that's just a rumor, but.. No.

The Browns somehow extend EVERYONE yet with a few restructures allegedly have an enormous amount of cap space. You know waaaaay more about the cap than I do, and I know they can't run from the salary cap monster forever. 

[syd]

5 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

The Browns somehow extend EVERYONE yet with a few restructures allegedly have an enormous amount of cap space. You know waaaaay more about the cap than I do, and I know they can't run from the salary cap monster forever. 

Juedy ? how much ?

[BernieSuperBowl2]

I'm luke-warm on Moore so far. He looks talented, maybe Stefanski isn't using him right. Ditto for Njoku

[Flugel]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:54 PM, jiggins7919 said:

Anyway, I wanted to talk about Elijah Moore and really how disappointed I am with how we're using him and also his lack of vision and patience. Moore has terrific hands, is a quality route runner, and can play exclusively as a WR and not just some gadget guy. I love figuring out ways to get him involved offensively, especially with Saint Nick out, but he's so much "Moore" than some random dude who thrives on 3-4 gadget type plays. 

Additionally, when Moore HAS gotten the ball, he hasn't flashed great speed and his field vision rivals Stevie Wonder. Oh, and don't fumble the damn ball. 

I realize Njoku has become a solid blocker now, but are we really paying big bucks for a guy to block? Njoku's average depth of target goes about as deep as an Asian porn star. I don't get it. EVERY throw to David is basically 2 yards.Why aren't we getting the ball to Njoku? 

Fumbles. I'm done with them. We HAVE to be the absolute worst team in history at recovering fumbles and fumbling the ball. 

The flip side is even worse. We hardly EVER force a fumble, and if we do, we never get it! How is that possible?

WOW!  Damn good post Jiggs!   I hit the deck laughing at the as deep as an Asian Porn star.  The game winning TD against us was from a Edge Rusher stripping the QB from behind to the other untouched Edge Rusher who caught the loose ball in stride almost as if they caught the idea on film and rehearsed it all week.

[jiggins7919]

18 hours ago, syd said:

Juedy ? how much ?

Screw it, go all in and see what Davante Adams will cost. If Cooper goes down, who is catching the ball? Watson literally throws it nowhere else. 

[Orion]

2 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

If Cooper goes down, who is catching the ball?

Losing your best receiver will hurt any team.

I was glad to see Tillman out on the field getting his feet wet a little bit.  Gotta crawl before ya can walk.   David Bell is Cooper's size...that's about where the comparison ends at this point.  We brought in Goodwin and Moore.  

I don't see us making any WR moves at this point.

[Ibleedbrown]

Regarding Moore, l’d like to see a little more gumption from the guy. He might be fast but l’m not seeing any juke moves or a dying desire to drive the ball downfield. 

A guy like Hunt is kinda like the gold standard for a guy who will fight and scratch for every yard. I’m not feeling that from Moore, like maybe he gives up too early?

We’ve all played guns in a back yard, right? Or cowboys and indians? The game has many names. Like a game with toy weapons that shoot zero projectiles, so there’s room for debate on whether you did or did not get somebody. 

Hunt’s the guy who would fist fight you over his belief that you did not get him. Moore likely would not.

 

[Orion]

7 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

fight and scratch for every yard. I’m not feeling that from Moore, like maybe he gives up too early

It was fighting for extra yards that caused his fumble las week.   He's too little a guy.  Unless he needs a yard or two for a first down or TD, then he should just go OB or get down.  While he's struggling someone is going to rip the ball out of that little guys arms.  -  MHO

[gumby73]

10 minutes ago, Orion said:

little guys arms.

They are short in the WR length dept. too..

 

What jumps off the screen to me in the few all 22's with WR Elijah Moore..

His field vision does carry him to wrong places.. He's a willing blocker

For a guy with good athletic ability. His juke & slowing of cuts (rounded off) in route trees could use some Andrew Hawkins side training

 

  Moore's gifted with all the WR speed ya need 

[Flugel]

7 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Regarding Moore, l’d like to see a little more gumption from the guy. He might be fast but l’m not seeing any juke moves or a dying desire to drive the ball downfield. 

A guy like Hunt is kinda like the gold standard for a guy who will fight and scratch for every yard. I’m not feeling that from Moore, like maybe he gives up too early?

We’ve all played guns in a back yard, right? Or cowboys and indians? The game has many names. Like a game with toy weapons that shoot zero projectiles, so there’s room for debate on whether you did or did not get somebody. 

Hunt’s the guy who would fist fight you over his belief that you did not get him. Moore likely would not.

 

It's good to have Hunt back.   He went from wanting a bigger salary commitment from this team to realizing a market value for a RB wasn't going to do him any favors.  I agree with your pov that he'd fight you over his belief if you did not get him.  Now let's piggyback the reality he was unemployed at a position he earned AFC Rookie of the Year honors at not very long ago - and what do we have?   A talented RB with something to prove AGAIN. This time his volume of reps won't be shared/lessened with the best RB in the league.  He'll share a bigger workload with Jerome Ford.

As for Moore, he seems like a guy that could produce with some really good offensive coaching and strategy; which is something his previous team and the Browns haven't really exemplified.  I'm hopeful that will improve.  When I say something like that about the coaching - I'm also talking about securing the football like a professional football team instead of the youth football approach.  That should take place every day in practice from the first OTA/Minicamp right up to and throughout the daily grind of the regular season.  Moore and Njoku fumbled on their way to the ground.  Watson was holding the ball away from his body for anyone to swipe at.  Harrison Bryant has a history of putting the ball on the ground well beyond this season.  You play a well coached team like NE - their defensive game plan will hunt the Browns vulnerabilities like that.  Pittsburgh did that and it was difference between winning an losing.

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

They are short in the WR length dept. too..

 

What jumps off the screen to me in the few all 22's with WR Elijah Moore..

His field vision does carry him to wrong places.. He's a willing blocker

For a guy with good athletic ability. His juke & slowing of cuts (rounded off) in route trees could use some Andrew Hawkins side training

 

  Moore's gifted with all the WR speed ya need 

What you did there with your All 22 views - should be going on in the film review with him and the coaching staff.  I'm usually a homer to a fault but when we went after him - my first thought was why did he play himself out of the Jets' line-up as early as his 2nd season?  Then again, the way the Jets coach/strategize offense had me thinking I should at least give him a wait and see before racing to a conclusion on him.  Wasn't Aaron Rodgers getting swarmed during his 1st and only series?   I look at the Jets and Offense like the TV salesmen probably summed me up with the following "I just sold a Smart TV to a Dumb User."  My hope is Cleveland isn't a Dumb User with Moore.    He's got some goodies if our offensive coaching can tap them.

[jiggins7919]

8 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Regarding Moore, l’d like to see a little more gumption from the guy. He might be fast but l’m not seeing any juke moves or a dying desire to drive the ball downfield. 

That's what I was saying about Moore. We all make mistakes, but that screen pass he bungled just CAN'T happen. You get so few chances for splash plays in the NFL that you HAVE to hit them. The coach gets the perfect call, everyone else does their job perfectly, and...you ran with your head down inside the blockers? The guy has shown zero wiggle or escapabilty. Now, it's EARLY and I'm not burying the poor guy, but if he's getting force-fed the pill, there needs to be a damn reason. 

Same thing on that Njoku failed screen. Another splash play our offense sorely needed and Pocic blew it. Think about it, the only big plays we've really had are from a coverage bust on Amari's td and a nice sluggo route (and terrible defense). Other than that...uhhhhh. 

Again, it's EARLY, right? The issue I'm having is we play the Ravens, and whenever we play Steelers the Ravens, we'll try to lose, it's what it is. I made a post before the Steelers game illustrating in detail all the things that would go against us and it was oddly prophetic, scarily so. Well guess what, I'm going to make another post about the Ravens and I'm going to be right again. I want the difference to be that we WIN, obviously, in spite of the innumerable aspects of the game that inevitably go against us. 

[Flugel]

31 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

That's what I was saying about Moore. We all make mistakes, but that screen pass he bungled just CAN'T happen. You get so few chances for splash plays in the NFL that you HAVE to hit them. The coach gets the perfect call, everyone else does their job perfectly, and...you ran with your head down inside the blockers? The guy has shown zero wiggle or escapabilty. Now, it's EARLY and I'm not burying the poor guy, but if he's getting force-fed the pill, there needs to be a damn reason. 

Same thing on that Njoku failed screen. Another splash play our offense sorely needed and Pocic blew it. Think about it, the only big plays we've really had are from a coverage bust on Amari's td and a nice sluggo route (and terrible defense). Other than that...uhhhhh. 

Again, it's EARLY, right? The issue I'm having is we play the Ravens, and whenever we play Steelers the Ravens, we'll try to lose, it's what it is. I made a post before the Steelers game illustrating in detail all the things that would go against us and it was oddly prophetic, scarily so. Well guess what, I'm going to make another post about the Ravens and I'm going to be right again. I want the difference to be that we WIN, obviously, in spite of the innumerable aspects of the game that inevitably go against us. 

All true and needed to be said.  I went skipping record on "I'd like to see a game plan for TJ Watt for once."   Should it be a red flag that Stefanski still doesn't know anything about him?    Maybe it's just a strange coincidence; but the 1 time the Browns seemed prepared for TJ Watt was their playoff victory at Pittsburgh that Stefanski couldn't attend due to COVID.  That might also be because it was one of the rare times poor Jack Conklin was healthy enough to suit up against him without battling 2-3 injuries to do so...

[SdBacker80]

Regarding Moore, we can start by feeding him the ball in space and not throwing sideline routes to him or running him to the short side of the field.  He had an attitude with the Jets but they let him go…and how many WRs have an attitude and want the ball.  So I guess I’m not expecting huge returns from him.

Njoku needs to stress the seams more and be a redzone focal point.  Like others have said he contributes now and finally in other phases…run and pass blocking and not derailing drives with bonehead penalties that were hallmark to his first three years in the league. 

[jiggins7919]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

All true and needed to be said.  I went skipping record on "I'd like to see a game plan for TJ Watt for once."   Should it be a red flag that Stefanski still doesn't know anything about him?    Maybe it's just a strange coincidence; but the 1 time the Browns seemed prepared for TJ Watt was their playoff victory at Pittsburgh that Stefanski couldn't attend due to COVID.  That might also be because it was one of the rare times poor Jack Conklin was healthy enough to suit up against him without battling 2-3 injuries to do so...

I've calmed down a little bit since Pittsburgh but not much. Mainly because the season is so long and victories within the division are SO hard to get, ESPECIALLY at Pittsburgh. I get that Stefanski wanted the dagger play but he didn't think of the consequences. You're up 3, you're opposition literally has negative 7 yards for the quarter, and basically the only way they will win is if you give them a free td. 

So what do you do? You run the ball to keep the clock moving, right? Maybe a draw play to trick them and somehow get the first but the main thing is clock and PROTECTING THE BALL. Anyone who plays Madden video games, ANYONE, knows that if you call a long developing play-action pass against a blitz you will get sacked or fumble the ball. Children playing a video game know this stuff, so when a coach in the effing NFL doesn't know it, it drives me absolutely nuts. Man...I don't get it. 

It's like drafting Jed Wills. So these brainiacs REALLY thought taking a RT and converting him to LT was better than taking an established LT? WHY? HOW? 

Calm down Jiggins...let's not go nuclear. 😂

This is the best team I've ever seen in Cleveland. I really want them to give the fans something special, but we have to be smarter. Taking care of the ball will determine the game Sunday, especially with Watson hurt. Can't do designed runs with him because he doesn't slide. If we take care of the ball, we can win. 

[SdBacker80]

22 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

I've calmed down a little bit since Pittsburgh but not much. Mainly because the season is so long and victories within the division are SO hard to get, ESPECIALLY at Pittsburgh. I get that Stefanski wanted the dagger play but he didn't think of the consequences. You're up 3, you're opposition literally has negative 7 yards for the quarter, and basically the only way they will win is if you give them a free td. 

So what do you do? You run the ball to keep the clock moving, right? Maybe a draw play to trick them and somehow get the first but the main thing is clock and PROTECTING THE BALL. Anyone who plays Madden video games, ANYONE, knows that if you call a long developing play-action pass against a blitz you will get sacked or fumble the ball. Children playing a video game know this stuff, so when a coach in the effing NFL doesn't know it, it drives me absolutely nuts. Man...I don't get it. 

It's like drafting Jed Wills. So these brainiacs REALLY thought taking a RT and converting him to LT was better than taking an established LT? WHY? HOW? 

Calm down Jiggins...let's not go nuclear. 😂

This is the best team I've ever seen in Cleveland. I really want them to give the fans something special, but we have to be smarter. Taking care of the ball will determine the game Sunday, especially with Watson hurt. Can't do designed runs with him because he doesn't slide. If we take care of the ball, we can win. 

Well we aren’t alone…did you see the game last night?

Matt LaFluer…doing Stef kind of things.  Two tackles out so they spent the first half trying to take deeper shots downfield…although they couldn’t run it and simply nothing worked but still making a vulnerable position do more than what they can do. 
 

I think we hand the Steelers a big time beating in November at home.  Although the carryover from that game is losing what I think is the heart and soul of the offense - Chubb.  I don’t care about the Division, the playoffs, winning a game in the playoffs I sound like a spoiled fan from a NFL team with Lombardis everywhere but I want us to win the whole dang thing…I think it’s a much harder proposition without Chubb.

Can Watson step up and carry the offense - we will see.  This is essentially forcing him to step his game up.   I think we can add a third tackle (not really counting Hudson or any other JAG) as insurance.  If it’s Hudson or another low level JAG we are going to be counting on DTR and then a street level QB finishing the year…we aren’t winning another game or going anywhere if that happens.
 

 

 

 

[SdBacker80]

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

All true and needed to be said.  I went skipping record on "I'd like to see a game plan for TJ Watt for once."   Should it be a red flag that Stefanski still doesn't know anything about him?    Maybe it's just a strange coincidence; but the 1 time the Browns seemed prepared for TJ Watt was their playoff victory at Pittsburgh that Stefanski couldn't attend due to COVID.  That might also be because it was one of the rare times poor Jack Conklin was healthy enough to suit up against him without battling 2-3 injuries to do so...

The game plan is don’t be one dimensional against the Steelers defense.  I can’t even count over the last 24 years how many times we self evaluate our offensive line woes against that team when in that time we’ve had some teams that could run the ball.  

The 3-4 with two maniacs on the edge is the perfect recipe to dish out when you have a lead or playing a HC that forgets to run the ball and mix up the play calling. 
 

You and I were both worried about Wills before that game.  I’d much rather see him run block or get some help (whether a chip or a reasonable play call) if we are passing downfield. 

 

[syd]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:39 PM, Dutch Oven said:

 and I know they can't run from the salary cap monster forever. 

 

[Orion]

Brave, brave Sir Robin.    

Moore is our second leading receiver.  Five more catches than the next guy (DPJ).  He might not be great in YAC, but he catches the ball.  We've had plenty of receivers that couldn't do that.  

[Ibleedbrown]

13 hours ago, Orion said:

It was fighting for extra yards that caused his fumble las week.   He's too little a guy.  Unless he needs a yard or two for a first down or TD, then he should just go OB or get down.  While he's struggling someone is going to rip the ball out of that little guys arms.  -  MHO

Is it so much to want both things in a player? Both tenacity and ball-holding-on-to skills? 

[Ibleedbrown]

13 hours ago, Flugel said:

It's good to have Hunt back.   He went from wanting a bigger salary commitment from this team to realizing a market value for a RB wasn't going to do him any favors.  I agree with your pov that he'd fight you over his belief if you did not get him.  Now let's piggyback the reality he was unemployed at a position he earned AFC Rookie of the Year honors at not very long ago - and what do we have?   A talented RB with something to prove AGAIN. This time his volume of reps won't be shared/lessened with the best RB in the league.  He'll share a bigger workload with Jerome Ford.

As for Moore, he seems like a guy that could produce with some really good offensive coaching and strategy; which is something his previous team and the Browns haven't really exemplified.  I'm hopeful that will improve.  When I say something like that about the coaching - I'm also talking about securing the football like a professional football team instead of the youth football approach.  That should take place every day in practice from the first OTA/Minicamp right up to and throughout the daily grind of the regular season.  Moore and Njoku fumbled on their way to the ground.  Watson was holding the ball away from his body for anyone to swipe at.  Harrison Bryant has a history of putting the ball on the ground well beyond this season.  You play a well coached team like NE - their defensive game plan will hunt the Browns vulnerabilities like that.  Pittsburgh did that and it was difference between winning an losing.

I was honestly surprised and really pleased with how Hunt played, like he was arguably in mid-season form, and if he lost a step l couldn’t tell. 

I’m intrigued by Ford too. He was a UC guy when they had some good teams here. He’s a tough dude. 

I’m hopeful for good things from Moore. You can tell there’s a real interest in getting him involved in the mix, but l’m pulling for better results.