Israel part 2

[Westside Steve]

So the ruskies and Ukraine easy enough to figure out. Russia wants the port with which to ship their Energy Products to the Europeans who despite our doing the having Lifting for their defense or happy to buy. And they don't want NATO missiles on their border.

Israel got West Bank and Georgia after they were attacked and drove out a fairly substantial bunch of enemies. They don't want Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad or Muslim Brotherhood nukes On the Border of Tel Aviv for jerusalem. The Arabs just want to take back that land that they lost. Just for spite? What's your take boys?

WSS

[calfoxwc]

The palestinian claim is bogus. It's just a screwed up excuse to hate the Jews. Back in the day, the UN was going to give the Israelis their own state, and was going to give the arabic folks their own state.

However, the arabic peoples refused to have their own state, because it would be next to Israel. They wanted the Israelis to not have a state at all, they wanted it ALL for themselves.

   They didn't lose anything, they refused to have a state. and those same extreme hater palestinians refused to go live in Israel because they hated.  The palestinians destroyed their own futures out of their cultural/religious hatred for all Jews.

[calfoxwc]

https://freebeacon.com › national-security › how-palestinians-created-own-plight

How the Palestinians Created Their Own Plight - Washington Free Beacon

The Jewish state of Israel, established in 1948, endured, and the Palestinian Arabs, who could have had their own state, remained stateless. Since then, the Palestinians have repeatedly...

[calfoxwc]

• https://www.algemeiner.com › 2022 › 11 › 23 › the-palestinians-reject-having-their-own-state-as-well-as-peace

  The Palestinians Reject Having Their Own State — as Well as Peace

  The UN Partition Plan, had it been accepted by the Palestinians, would have created a state for them. The 2014 negotiations facilitated by Secretary of State John Kerry, also could have led to a ...

[calfoxwc]

furthermore, back in 2005, we told libs around here - that to give up the gaza strip was not going to bring peace, but will eventually be used to stage war against Israel again.

   This hama attack has been planned for many years - it started on the anniversary of some war/battle that was monumental for them.

  Giving up Gaza was a huge mistake. Israel is now paying the price for going ahead and sticking their necks out for peace.

George W. Bush - it was a mistake. There will never be peace - the arabs refuse peace.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-gaza-disengagement-just-died-what-happens-next/

[hoorta]

59 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

So the ruskies and Ukraine easy enough to figure out. Russia wants the port with which to ship their Energy Products to the Europeans who despite our doing the having Lifting for their defense or happy to buy. And they don't want NATO missiles on their border.

Israel got West Bank and Georgia after they were attacked and drove out a fairly substantial bunch of enemies. They don't want Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad or Muslim Brotherhood nukes On the Border of Tel Aviv for Jerusalem. The Arabs just want to take back that land that they lost. Just for spite? What's your take boys?

WSS

MHO Steve? The Muslims and (their pagan predecessors) and our Semitic friends have have hated each other for millennia. I don't know the reason exactly why, but I don't expect it to end anytime soon. Their eventual goal is to wipe Israel off the map. What's stunning to me is the massive failure of Israel's Intelligence community. Like how in the HELL was Hamas able to smuggle thousands of rockets into the Gaza strip totally undetected?   

Just a little dig at the GOP hardliners who want to cut off aid to Ukraine.. A FYI

"The United States already provides Israel more than $3 billion in military assistance every year, Mr. Blinken said that much of the equipment from that funding is already “in the pipeline” to be sent to Israel.  

Hmmmm.... Ukraine doesn't matter, but Israel does?  Just sayin'. 

[hoorta]

PS that Americans were killed- doesn't surprise me. I'm certain at any given time, there's dozens of US religious pilgrim groups touring the sites in the Holy Land. I just hope those who are most likely still in the country are able to get out of Dodge before more missiles start flying.     

[Axe]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

PS that Americans were killed- doesn't surprise me. I'm certain at any given time, there's dozens of US religious pilgrim groups touring the sites in the Holy Land. I just hope those who are most likely still in the country are able to get out of Dodge before more missiles start flying.     

Newsflash Larry, the missiles are already flying.

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

PS that Americans were killed- doesn't surprise me. I'm certain at any given time, there's dozens of US religious pilgrim groups touring the sites in the Holy Land. I just hope those who are most likely still in the country are able to get out of Dodge before more missiles start flying.     

A lot of dual citizen Americans.

[VaporTrail]

Steve, ultimately, it's because someone thought the picture below was a good idea. Really, the last domino to fall was probably Trump's Abraham Accords. With the accord, MbS and the Saudis basically washed their hands of the Palestinian cause and Palestine was the big loser from it. MbS got a ton of hate from the West because he ordered the hit of NYT journalist, but MbS also jailed thousands of the batshit crazy wahhabists and removed just about all of their influence from the Saudi government.

The Abraham Accords pushed the Palestinians even further into the corner. The only hope for the leadership in Hamas is to drag the whole Middle East into a holy war. The next few months will not be fun for anyone in Gaza, as IDF is already dropping JDAMs on residential highrises. I truly believe that Israel is targeting high value Hamas targets, but they also don't really care about the collateral damage. There are two million people in Gaza - not all of them are in Hamas (though Hamas will have a shit ton more local support after this week). There are only so many dead children the general public can stomach before someone does something about it, not to mention the Arab world. Israel will get the better of Hamas, so long as intervention is limited to Hezbollah. We will see if any other state actors decide to step in if Israel's response gets too heavy-handed. The region is still a powder keg. 

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

Palestinians and hamas hate gays and other LGBT.  That alone should make liberals be against them, but they support them.  Strange huh?  In Gaza Gays can get the death penalty.  How about that Woody?????😁

[Westside Steve]

Considering the kidnappings how much do you think the billions of dollars we gave Iran influenced the decision?

WSS

[VaporTrail]

2 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Considering the kidnappings how much do you think the billions of dollars we gave Iran influenced the decision?

WSS

I wouldn't be shocked if that freed up money to be funneled from other Iranian sources to Hamas. I doubt it influenced the decision nearly as much as the Ukraine/Russia war did. 

1 - US emergency munitions stockpiles were diverted from Israel to Ukraine early in 2023, this was published by NYT
2 - They saw that an underdog in Ukraine could greatly outperform expectations and bleed the Russians hard for any ground they take
3 - They also saw the failure of a Ukrainian offensive in spite of receiving multiple western wonderweapons 
4 - They saw said multi-million dollar wonderweapons lose to $100 drones and mines
5 - They saw the American public and the West in general waver on their support for Ukraine
6 - They saw western munitions supplies being used faster than they could be replaced

They saw an opening and took it. I doubt they'd have a better opportunity in the future. I just have to wonder what China is thinking seeing all of that, and now watching US politicians salivate over giving as much support as Israel needs to raze Gaza. 

[Jax]

Israel gave warning to the citizens in the building they were about to strike that was storing the arms.

I find it disingenuous people keep talking about Palestine backed into a corner yet ignore the terrorist acts they are committing.

 

[Canton Dawg]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

Just a little dig at the GOP hardliners who want to cut off aid to Ukraine.. A FYI

Cut off aid?

You mean like making payroll for their military?

How about making pension payments to their retired military?

That’s not aid…that’s called a blank check.

[VaporTrail]

1 hour ago, Jax said:

I find it disingenuous people keep talking about Palestine backed into a corner yet ignore the terrorist acts they are committing.

You mean the same way you're doing with Israel? You don't have to be a cheerleader. It's okay to say that both sides have no respect for life of people outside of their group. 

[Jax]

I'm not a cheerleader, I openly said why I don't agree with hamas and posted actual videos of the atrocities, but I never said I agree with Israel either, though it appears to me they have every right to defend themselves. At this time I really don't know enough to say Israel is wrong in any way as all I see so far is they are protecting themselves from terrorists.

Whatever you do though, Israels actions are nothing like what the hamas are doing, which is nothing short of criminal, terrorist and considered war crimes if nothing else. War will always bring collateral damage.

[VaporTrail]

9 minutes ago, Jax said:

I never said I agree with Israel either, though it appears to me they have every right to defend themselves. At this time I really don't know enough to say Israel is wrong in any way as all I see so far is they are protecting themselves from terrorists.

Whatever you do though, Israels actions are nothing like what the hamas are doing, which is nothing short of criminal, terrorist and considered war crimes if nothing else. War will always bring collateral damage.

I'd like to know your opinion, at what point on the graph did Israel gain every right to defend themselves?

[Jax]

Those numbers exist because Israel was forced to defend themselves.

Is it bad if we look at the 200,000+ Iraqi citizens that were killed during that war? It happens, I'm not saying it's good, but it's war.

So you agree with the terrorist actions of hamas?

[VaporTrail]

20 minutes ago, Jax said:

So you agree with the terrorist actions of hamas?

No. Please carry on with your mental gymnastics. 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Cut off aid?

You mean like making payroll for their military?

How about making pension payments to their retired military?

That’s not aid…that’s called a blank check.

Source? Gateway Pundit? 

[Westside Steve]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

Source? Gateway Pundit? 

So what? It's a valid concern.

WSS

[Jax]

7 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

No. Please carry on with your mental gymnastics. 

Hamas are carrying out terrorist actions, how is the word gymnastics? Do you refute that?

Do you refute during our war 200,000+ Iraqi citizens were killed? Our causality rate was low compared to that number.

You're the one playing word gymnastics trying to show death tolls being out of balance with no context behind the numbers. So if we use your logic, then you must have been against your own nation in most of the wars we've been in. We entered Vietnam, supposedly, because of an attack against one of our ships. We went to war with the Taliban because they flew planes into our buildings. You've been ok with that I assume because you've never ranted about it which means you accept all the collateral damage that came with it. The problem with your argument is that you just try to paint people into a corner that if we accept this war then we must like all the killing. Things aren't that simple, I support Israel with what I know but I do not care for all the collateral damage. That's what happens when hamas hides behind the citizens to use as meatshields, and by the reactions in the streets as they parade dead bodies around, it looks like they themselves support the violence.

In an age where we had suicide bombers fly planes into our buildings I have no sympathy for terrorists or their sympathizers. In our world over here, we try to respect life and live peacefully, it's a different world over there. That's why it's discerning when people here think it's a great humanitarian accomplishment to allow the invasion of illegal aliens, especially with no regard to background checks. 

[Canton Dawg]

9 hours ago, hoorta said:

Source? Gateway Pundit? 

That info has been talked about by some Presidential candidates.

If you’re counting on that “military aid” only being used for the war, I have some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell.

[calfoxwc]

4 hours ago, Jax said:

Hamas are carrying out terrorist actions, how is the word gymnastics? Do you refute that?

Do you refute during our war 200,000+ Iraqi citizens were killed? Our causality rate was low compared to that number.

You're the one playing word gymnastics trying to show death tolls being out of balance with no context behind the numbers. So if we use your logic, then you must have been against your own nation in most of the wars we've been in. We entered Vietnam, supposedly, because of an attack against one of our ships. We went to war with the Taliban because they flew planes into our buildings. You've been ok with that I assume because you've never ranted about it which means you accept all the collateral damage that came with it. The problem with your argument is that you just try to paint people into a corner that if we accept this war then we must like all the killing. Things aren't that simple, I support Israel with what I know but I do not care for all the collateral damage. That's what happens when hamas hides behind the citizens to use as meatshields, and by the reactions in the streets as they parade dead bodies around, it looks like they themselves support the violence.

In an age where we had suicide bombers fly planes into our buildings I have no sympathy for terrorists or their sympathizers. In our world over here, we try to respect life and live peacefully, it's a different world over there. That's why it's discerning when people here think it's a great humanitarian accomplishment to allow the invasion of illegal aliens, especially with no regard to background checks. 

Outstanding reply.

Furthermore, to Vapor - you brought up the Abraham Accords as to the dwindling paslestinian owned territoy in Israel? Can you explain how that has anything to do with your maps ???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords

"The Abraham Accords are bilateral agreements on Arab–Israeli normalization signed between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain on September 15, 2020.^[1][2] Mediated by the United States, the initial announcement of August 13, 2020, concerned only Israel and the United Arab Emirates before the announcement of a follow-up agreement between Israel and Bahrain on September 11, 2020. On September 15, 2020, the official signing ceremony for the first iteration of the Abraham Accords was hosted by the Trump administration at the White House.^[3] As part of the dual agreements, both the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain recognized Israel's sovereignty, enabling the establishment of full diplomatic relations. "

*************

"In December 2020, the Israel–Morocco normalization agreement was signed. In exchange for Morocco's recognition of Israeli sovereignty, the United States recognized Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara.^[10] On January 6, 2021, following up on the Israel–Sudan normalization agreement (signed in October 2020), the government of Sudan signed the "Abraham Accords Declaration" in Khartoum, witnessed by American treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin. Though the process of full normalization is ongoing, the United States has incentivized the deal by agreeing to abolish Sudan's status as a "State Sponsor of Terrorism" while also providing a loan of US$1.2 billion to help the Sudanese government clear the country's debts to the World Bank.^[11][12] Although Sudan signed the declarative section of the agreement, it did not sign the corresponding document with Israel, unlike the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain. As of February 2023, negotiations with the Sudanese government on full normalization with Israel are ongoing.^[13]"

^{********************}

[VaporTrail]

11 hours ago, Jax said:

Do you refute during our war 200,000+ Iraqi citizens were killed? Our causality rate was low compared to that number.

Actually, we killed more like half a million to a million Iraqis. 

Quote

In our world over here, we try to respect life and live peacefully, it's a different world over there.

You are the one who is coming up with apologies for killing of innocent children and civilians, not me. 

[VaporTrail]

6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Furthermore, to Vapor - you brought up the Abraham Accords as to the dwindling paslestinian owned territoy in Israel? Can you explain how that has anything to do with your maps ???

Did you read my post or just look at the picture? I explained exactly what the Abraham Accords did and how it relates to the current events. Regardless, I supported it when Trump did it, and if it was anyone other than Trump as president, they would have gotten a Nobel Peace Prize. Saudi Arabia turning their backs on Palestine is a big reason why this is currently a local conflict and not a regional one. 

[Axe]

I think Iran has a nuclear weapon.

[calfoxwc]

I think it's bad form to worry about collateral accidental deaths to civilians, when

40 babies were murdered by beheading, and hand grenades are thrown into houses to murder entire families hiding behind locked doors, and children being murdered/shot in front of their parents.

There was going to be a war alright, Now there are two. I pray it isn't going to get far worse, but I just wonder....

[calfoxwc]

6 hours ago, VaporTrail said:

Did you read my post or just look at the picture? I explained exactly what the Abraham Accords did and how it relates to the current events. Regardless, I supported it when Trump did it, and if it was anyone other than Trump as president, they would have gotten a Nobel Peace Prize. Saudi Arabia turning their backs on Palestine is a big reason why this is currently a local conflict and not a regional one. 

Yes, I read it - it was bs. "Trump's Abraham Accords." ? How about your president has been president for three years, and screwed things up badly?

  There are about half of pharmacists, profs, etc etc etc, in Israeli society. A lot of arabs left Israel because they refused to live next to Jews, like I freaking mentioned earlier. They even refused to have their own STATE because they did not want their state to be next to Israel, and they didn't want the Jews to have a state - the arabs demanded it all for themselves.

  So, your maps are not per the Abraham accords, the context is, extreme bigotry and hate by a certain percentage of the Arabic population.

Furthermore, you said "I'd like to know your opinion, at what point on the graph did Israel gain every right to defend themselves? "

   I can't take your question seriously. Going to war with Israel, and losing a lot of suicidal terrorists lives....this is your idea of a legit case?

   Hamas and hezbollah etc hide in hospitals, schools, mosques, to create the necessity of collateral damage. Missiles fired out of these locations, and you think Israel should stand down and let them continue because.....

   You're a smart guy, you know better than that.

Go back and read up on why Israel ended up controlling the West Bank and the Gaza strip. They were declared war upon by

  Here's a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Egypt, Syria and Jordan declared war against Israel's existence. Egypt blockaded all commercial shipping to try to destroy their country. Then, Egypt was going to do it again, .... Pretty much surrounding closing Israel from the rest of the world, except for shipping. And Egypt closed that.

   Every time war has been declared against Israel - it has been to try to wipe Israel off the map. Did you read my post earlier? They refused to allow Israel to have a state, and refused to have their own state next to Israel. The historical, cultural HATE was from Biblical times.

  All the way back to - When Mohammed was murdering Jews in attacks - because they would not convert to Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

"The Banu Qurayza were besieged for 25 days until they surrendered.^[1] The men from Banu Aws, who were one of the two Arab tribes in Medina who had become followers of Muhammad and part of the Ansar, requested that Muhammad treat Banu Qurayza leniently, as they were their client tribe. Muhammad then proposed that one man from the Banu Aws pass the judgment, and they agreed. He then appointed Sa'd ibn Muadh, who was gravely wounded by an arrow. So Sa'd stated that his decision would be, "The men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as slaves." Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it in accordance with God's decree pronounced above the seventh heaven.^{[8][9][10][12][13]} After that, nearly all male members of the tribe who had reached puberty were beheaded.^[14][2][15] The Muslim jurist Tabari quotes 600–900 being killed.^[16][3] The Sunni hadith do not give the number killed, but state that one woman and all pubescent males were killed.^[17] According to Ibn Kathir, Quranic verses 33:26-27 and 33:9-10 are about the attack against the Banu Qurayza.^[2][18][19]"