Staying Put (and Outdoors) or Dome Sweet Dome in the 'Burbs?

[Dutch Oven]

10 hours ago, ballpeen said:

The only logical answer is to go dome in Brookpark.

 

There are sentimental reasons to stay downtown, but sentimental reason usually makes for poor business decisions.  There are multiple reasons why the move should be made over staying put and going with the band-aide approach.

A year or so ago when this whole stadium talk started, the Haslams came up with a report that mentioned:

1. Cleveland Browns Stadium is a mediocre stadium that was built quickly and kind of poorly

2. A stadium on the lake takes a pounding from Mother Nature, hence is a maintenance nightmare.

Regardless of the flip-flopping they have had on this topic, and at times seem fine with just renovating the existing stadium, I've never thought they really want this. In fact, I think it would be their absolute last resort. 

I just can't see where the money is coming from to build a 2+ billion dollar dome. 

I'd much rather see them stay downtown, but off the lakefront. I wonder how many acres the Wolstein Arena sits on... Cleveland State has been talking about bulldozing it and building a much smaller arena a few blocks north. Perhaps the Browns could look at putting a stadium there?

[Canton Dawg]

There's a big chunk of land available in northern Summit County near Richfield. But I believe that's been tried before.

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

There's a big chunk of land available in northern Summit County near Richfield. But I believe that's been tried before.

Honestly, I think that spot would work better for the Browns than the Cavs because you are only going 8 or 9 times a year.

Then again, how was getting in/out of the Coliseum? There would be three times as many people going to Browns games.

[Orion]

 

[ballpeen]

On 4/5/2024 at 7:36 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Honestly, I think that spot would work better for the Browns than the Cavs because you are only going 8 or 9 times a year.

Then again, how was getting in/out of the Coliseum? There would be three times as many people going to Browns games.

Good point on the number of games.  It's one thing to hold season tickets to 8-9 gabe v 42 or whatever it is for basketball.

 

As for infrastructure, everybody knows how that worked before when Maletti moved out there.  The state and county would have to step up and improve things.  It's not like it couldn't be done.

But, I do think the Haslams want to be closer to city center.  Brookpark is where it is going.  It's the only spot that checks all the boxes.  Having a option on the property requires earnest money  I have no idea what that may have entailed, but it is probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  I doubt he would have put that up and risked to lose if he wasn't pretty damn sure he was going to purchase the property and pull the plug on the new stadium station.

[Dutch Oven]

24 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Good point on the number of games.  It's one thing to hold season tickets to 8-9 gabe v 42 or whatever it is for basketball.

 

As for infrastructure, everybody knows how that worked before when Maletti moved out there.  The state and county would have to step up and improve things.  It's not like it couldn't be done.

But, I do think the Haslams want to be closer to city center.  Brookpark is where it is going.  It's the only spot that checks all the boxes.  Having a option on the property requires earnest money  I have no idea what that may have entailed, but it is probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  I doubt he would have put that up and risked to lose if he wasn't pretty damn sure he was going to purchase the property and pull the plug on the new stadium station.

Kind of an interesting parallel is what is going on with the Bears...

They bought a ton of acres in the suburbs (a former horse track?) and it looked like they were all set to move out of the city limits of Chicago, only to apparently scrap that idea and are now talking with Chicago about a new lakefront dome stadium. 

[ballpeen]

8 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Kind of an interesting parallel is what is going on with the Bears...

They bought a ton of acres in the suburbs (a former horse track?) and it looked like they were all set to move out of the city limits of Chicago, only to apparently scrap that idea and are now talking with Chicago about a new lakefront dome stadium. 

The difference is Chicago looks to have ample space on their lakefront.  Just a quick look at google maps show several "parks" on the south side that don't look very parkish to me.  All look more like wasteland that look like they were once industrial sites.  Maybe the term park is for proposed industrial park?  Some show climbing walls.  Nothing you couldn't erase.  All the mentioned are inside the city limits.

 

I think space is the problem the city has.  Without reclamation of private property, which it could do, be it very unpopular, finding a parcel large enough to fit what the Haslams want will be very challenging.

[Dutch Oven]

58 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

The difference is Chicago looks to have ample space on their lakefront.  Just a quick look at google maps show several "parks" on the south side that don't look very parkish to me.  All look more like wasteland that look like they were once industrial sites.  Maybe the term park is for proposed industrial park?  Some show climbing walls.  Nothing you couldn't erase.  All the mentioned are inside the city limits.

 

I think space is the problem the city has.  Without reclamation of private property, which it could do, be it very unpopular, finding a parcel large enough to fit what the Haslams want will be very challenging.

My point is the Bears bought a ton of land outside of the city proper, like the Haslams did, only to decide that the grass wasn't greener outside of Chicago.

The reason the Haslams want to get outside of downtown is that in Brookpark they could own EVERYTHING that makes money via the Browns GameDay experience. You want to park? Park at a Haslam-owned parking lot. Want to eat? Eat at a Haslam-owned restaurant, etc...

[Orion]

Bob Kraft built up a nice place in Patriot Place.  But it's 45 minutes outside of Boston (and Providence, where I'm at, is 45 min in the other direction).  Much of it's buildup was done during Tom Brady's career, the Heyday.  Boston and it's surroundings (including Providence) has always belonged to baseball and the beloved Red Sox.  I've told people here that I want to see how well Patriot Place does when/if the Patriots become 'meh' again.  -  When I was young, my friends & I could decide on a Saturday night to go see the Patriots the next day.  We'd drive up, buy tickets and sit where we wanted.  IMO this is an important draft for the Patriots.  They've got to fill the huge void that Tom Brady left.

[ballpeen]

7 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

My point is the Bears bought a ton of land outside of the city proper, like the Haslams did, only to decide that the grass wasn't greener outside of Chicago.

The reason the Haslams want to get outside of downtown is that in Brookpark they could own EVERYTHING that makes money via the Browns GameDay experience. You want to park? Park at a Haslam-owned parking lot. Want to eat? Eat at a Haslam-owned restaurant, etc...

Like I said, they want the space, and Cleveland doesn't have it.

 

Just to clarify a point I see going around, at least as I see it.  The parking, I mostly agree.  Haslam would have that, more than likely.  As for the hotels and restaurants, I doubt Haslam wants to get in to the restaurant or hotel business.  He would land lease a parcel to say Marriott...or Marriott franchisee. They would actually run the business and build the buildings. Haslam wants to be in the land business.  He will just rent the lots or spaces to various companies on say a 10-20 year lease.

 

At least that is how I would do it.  Less headaches and liabilities. He would still control what type of business would be on location.  I doubt he would approve plans to stick a 150 room Days Inn next to the stadium.

[syd]

5 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Like I said, they want the space, and Cleveland doesn't have it.

 

Just to clarify a point I see going around, at least as I see it.  The parking, I mostly agree.  Haslam would have that, more than likely.  As for the hotels and restaurants, I doubt Haslam wants to get in to the restaurant or hotel business.  He would land lease a parcel to say Marriott...or Marriott franchisee. They would actually run the business and build the buildings. Haslam wants to be in the land business.  He will just rent the lots or spaces to various companies on say a 10-20 year lease.

 

At least that is how I would do it.  Less headaches and liabilities. He would still control what type of business would be on location.  I doubt he would approve plans to stick a 150 room Days Inn next to the stadium.

good who care's ? just get it done

[Dutch Oven]

3 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Like I said, they want the space, and Cleveland doesn't have it.

 

Just to clarify a point I see going around, at least as I see it.  The parking, I mostly agree.  Haslam would have that, more than likely.  As for the hotels and restaurants, I doubt Haslam wants to get in to the restaurant or hotel business.  He would land lease a parcel to say Marriott...or Marriott franchisee. They would actually run the business and build the buildings. Haslam wants to be in the land business.  He will just rent the lots or spaces to various companies on say a 10-20 year lease.

 

At least that is how I would do it.  Less headaches and liabilities. He would still control what type of business would be on location.  I doubt he would approve plans to stick a 150 room Days Inn next to the stadium.

A city that used to be the sixth biggest in the U.S. that now has less than 400,000 residents has no where downtown they could build a football stadium? 

Come on meow. 

And yes, I didn't think Haslam would literally bus tables at a TGIFriday's next to the stadium or check people into a Motel 6. 

[ballpeen]

21 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

A city that used to be the sixth biggest in the U.S. that now has less than 400,000 residents has no where downtown they could build a football stadium? 

Come on meow. 

And yes, I didn't think Haslam would literally bus tables at a TGIFriday's next to the stadium or check people into a Motel 6. 

Ok....fair enough on the Haslam comment.  I really wasn't aiming the comment like you really thought that.

 

As for space, I am talking open space.    The city could evoke eminent domain laws, but then you would have to clear out blocks of building.  Some in use, some not.  Like I said earlier, it's not popular when the government starts kicking people and business out of their homes.

 

I wonder how many people who live in Cleveland actually go to games?  My thinking is Haslam and company have studied that question and the results say the most fans come from the west and south. 

[ballpeen]

On 4/7/2024 at 2:58 PM, syd said:

good who care's ? just get it done

Something is going to happen.  People can bash Haslam, but he is a man of action.  He isn't going to wait while the Cleveland City Council dicks around.  The last time they dicked around long enough to help push the team to Baltimore.

 

The difference this time in Model isn't the owner who ran to the money.  Haslam has the money to build the thing himself if it come to that.

[Dutch Oven]

7 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Ok....fair enough on the Haslam comment.  I really wasn't aiming the comment like you really thought that.

 

As for space, I am talking open space.    The city could evoke eminent domain laws, but then you would have to clear out blocks of building.  Some in use, some not.  Like I said earlier, it's not popular when the government starts kicking people and business out of their homes.

 

I wonder how many people who live in Cleveland actually go to games?  My thinking is Haslam and company have studied that question and the results say the most fans come from the west and south. 

I'm sure the majority of people who come to Browns games are from outside the city, there's less than 400,000 people in Cleveland proper, but over 2+ mill in the metro area. 

I really, REALLY think the Haslams want a dome in Brookpark, so are they just trying to see if the city blows their doors off with a ton of money to stay on the lakefront? This should be a very interesting year, I'm sure by this time next year we will have a good idea where the Browns will be playing in the future. 

[ballpeen]

17 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm sure the majority of people who come to Browns games are from outside the city, there's less than 400,000 people in Cleveland proper, but over 2+ mill in the metro area. 

I really, REALLY think the Haslams want a dome in Brookpark, so are they just trying to see if the city blows their doors off with a ton of money to stay on the lakefront? This should be a very interesting year, I'm sure by this time next year we will have a good idea where the Browns will be playing in the future. 

I think it could be sooner than that.  Building a dome takes over two years.  I am thinking by July things will be settled and shovels in the ground by August.  

 

Another factor to consider is a remodel on the lake to the extent required would require year-round construction.  The team has no suitable place to play for a year or two.  I don't think Columbus is a viable option, and forget about any stadium near Cleveland.  The stadium in Canton probably can't even meet the needs of season ticket holders.  My guess is the Browns season ticket holder number is around 40,000.  Open ticket sales are fairly limited.  Maybe 20-30,000 per game.  Again, just a guess.

 

The Haslams don't want that, and the NFL doesn't want that.

[Dutch Oven]

Hypothetically @ballpeen, lets say a spot in downtown could be found to build a dome...

Would you prefer it to stay somewhere downtown, or would you want it out in Brookpark? 

[ballpeen]

10 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Hypothetically @ballpeen, lets say a spot in downtown could be found to build a dome...

Would you prefer it to stay somewhere downtown, or would you want it out in Brookpark? 

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.  Both have positives and negatives.

[Orion]

Anthony Walker is not the only one that tells his agent stuff like this.    Build the dome.

Speaking to the Miami media, Walker shared the simple factor that he told his agent to focus on in free agency: Warmth!

“I stressed to my agent it was very, very important to get me out the cold. I was sick of it,” Walker said. “I hadn’t been home in a while. I was in the Midwest since I was 17 years old. It was about time I got some warm weather and when he said Miami and I was like let’s get it done.”

[ballpeen]

Only a vocal minority of fans think playing in the cold and snow is cool and some sort of an advantage.  I don't think players like playing in crap weather.

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Only a vocal minority of fans think playing in the cold and snow is cool and some sort of an advantage.  I don't think players like playing in crap weather.

It definitely can be an advantage.

I think its been shown over the years that it hasn't been for the Browns, though. 

[ballpeen]

4 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

It definitely can be an advantage.

I think its been shown over the years that it hasn't been for the Browns, though. 

I disagree.  I don't see any advantage.  At most it might be an equalizer.  But as you said, it hasn't equalized a darn thing for us.

 

I am sure the city will screw this one up like they screwed it up in 95.

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I disagree.  I don't see any advantage.  At most it might be an equalizer.  But as you said, it hasn't equalized a darn thing for us.

 

I am sure the city will screw this one up like they screwed it up in 95.

The city doesn't own the Browns, the Haslams do,

It's their private business, let them buy the land and pay for a stadium. 

[Canton Dawg]

On 4/8/2024 at 4:53 PM, ballpeen said:

I think it could be sooner than that.  Building a dome takes over two years.  I am thinking by July things will be settled and shovels in the ground by August.  

 

Another factor to consider is a remodel on the lake to the extent required would require year-round construction.  The team has no suitable place to play for a year or two.  I don't think Columbus is a viable option, and forget about any stadium near Cleveland.  The stadium in Canton probably can't even meet the needs of season ticket holders.  My guess is the Browns season ticket holder number is around 40,000.  Open ticket sales are fairly limited.  Maybe 20-30,000 per game.  Again, just a guess.

 

The Haslams don't want that, and the NFL doesn't want that.

There’s nothing in NEO large enough to accommodate the full array of Browns fans for a football game.

The closest would be Kent State’s Dix Stadium (seats 25k) or Akron U’s Infocision Stadium (seats 30k).

 

[ballpeen]

On 4/9/2024 at 5:56 PM, Dutch Oven said:

The city doesn't own the Browns, the Haslams do,

It's their private business, let them buy the land and pay for a stadium. 

They will.  Cleveland doesn't have the money.  But, the state and country will chip in because they have some money.

 

Why do you seem so intent to keep the team in the city when the city seems intent on being half assed about things?  

 

 

Sure, lets keep the team in a half ass stadium, spend a billion dollars, and in ten years have to build a domed stadium.   Small thinkers.

[ballpeen]

Just now, ballpeen said:

They will.  Cleveland doesn't have the money.  But, the state and country will chip in because they have some money.

 

Why do you seem so intent to keep the team in the city when the city seems intent on being half assed about things?  

 

 

Sure, lets keep the team in a half ass stadium, spend a billion dollars, and in ten years have to build a domed stadium.   Small thinkers with a Wal-Mart mentality.

 

[Dutch Oven]

7 hours ago, ballpeen said:

They will.  Cleveland doesn't have the money.  But, the state and country will chip in because they have some money.

 

Why do you seem so intent to keep the team in the city when the city seems intent on being half assed about things?  

 

 

Sure, lets keep the team in a half ass stadium, spend a billion dollars, and in ten years have to build a domed stadium.   Small thinkers.

I would prefer they stay downtown, but wouldn't be upset if they did the Brookpark thing.

And this is a private business. Interesting how all you free-market capitalism is king guys get all Bernie Sanders when it comes to these billionaires getting stadiums for their sports teams - stadiums that skyrocket the value of the teams they own.

The Haslams bought the Browns for $1 billion dollars, a team now valued at four times that amount. They had so much money from flipping their RICO-investigated truck stop business that they could buy the Columbus Crew AND buy a big chunk of a NBA team that competes with the Cavaliers. 

Let THEM build the palace they want. Let THEM maintain the palace they want.

[tiamat63]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:56 PM, Orion said:

Anthony Walker is not the only one that tells his agent stuff like this.    Build the dome.

Speaking to the Miami media, Walker shared the simple factor that he told his agent to focus on in free agency: Warmth!

“I stressed to my agent it was very, very important to get me out the cold. I was sick of it,” Walker said. “I hadn’t been home in a while. I was in the Midwest since I was 17 years old. It was about time I got some warm weather and when he said Miami and I was like let’s get it done.”

 

Mediocre players should be more concerned about being better and more consistent than they should about a couple months of colder weather. 

[ballpeen]

On 4/12/2024 at 7:11 AM, Dutch Oven said:

I would prefer they stay downtown, but wouldn't be upset if they did the Brookpark thing.

And this is a private business. Interesting how all you free-market capitalism is king guys get all Bernie Sanders when it comes to these billionaires getting stadiums for their sports teams - stadiums that skyrocket the value of the teams they own.

The Haslams bought the Browns for $1 billion dollars, a team now valued at four times that amount. They had so much money from flipping their RICO-investigated truck stop business that they could buy the Columbus Crew AND buy a big chunk of a NBA team that competes with the Cavaliers. 

Let THEM build the palace they want. Let THEM maintain the palace they want.

If it comes to that, I am sure they probably will.  The rest of what you said sounds like sour grapes to me.

[Dutch Oven]

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

If it comes to that, I am sure they probably will.  The rest of what you said sounds like sour grapes to me.

Of course it would.