3 hours ago, Kvoethe said:

Amazing leadership...he will sign for 40 mil guaranteed...proven talent and all

I really don't have a problem with you, Kvo. That said, can't help but notice ALL you do when you chime in is whine.

8 hours ago, Orion said:

Well, one downside is the amount of money he got....while we have Cooper, who was one of the cornerstone pillars that our '23 playoff run team stood upon.  But, it's what FA is.  Mostly, the better FA players will cost you $ to entice to come to your team.  Especially if the team is Cleveland...a place with $hitty winter weather (for you and your family) and you're going to have to play outside in it.  

That said, it's good that Berry is showing his concern for the WR position.  It's just so very important to have a good passing attack in the NFL.  

I'll maintain, the money doesn't concern me as much as the draft capital given up.  So long as we aren't completely mortgaging the future, the dollars and sense don't worry me that much.  

7 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 that I heard in the TV show Suits

 

Likely this.

And they're a pretty solid group.

 Gone back to watch four full games (so far) of JJ so far in Denver's offense.  Actually more pleasantly surprised than what I was expecting.   He functions primarily as their Z (off ball) receiver in the Donkey's system.   The pre-snap motion man so many offenses design a lot of their chain movers around.     

 There were a couple times I could see frustration setting in, and a couple of those comments from Steve Smith hit home.  Other times? I see a capable receiver who does well at his role and, in an offense that wasn't for volume passing, had more than a couple opportunities every game to contribute further if only Wilson could have more reliably found him and delivered.  Including a gimmie TD catch and another for YAC that would have likely been 6 points.   That's just in the quarter of a season I've seen so far.    I'll have more on that later. 

 I see the potential, but I also see the downside.   

1 minute ago, gumby73 said:

Kinda stung posting the Foreman to sign. Toledo grad, w/Hunt signed Toledo jersey. Proud of what Hunt proved w/his time here as a Brown. Played for 4M last season. Interest to what Foreman signs for here.

The wife is the household Panthers fan. Hated the McCaffery trade. But Yes, D.Foreman almost got 1k after that trade as a Panther.  That Carolina OL, couldn't pass block my wife , but better in run blocking inside tackles. 

Small world of NFL drafting..

In the 2017 NFL draft. K.Hunt went 3.86. The next RB off the board, came 3 picks later. Texas RB D'Onte Foreman 3.89. Hunt's truck load played just under 220lbs. (say's 216) .. Foreman does seem to be the a more durable healthy RB playing at 235lbs. 

Getting a durable D. Foreman this late in the FA pool?  Feels like a solid pickup for Andrew Berry/Browns       

Foreman has made any mid to late round RB addition likely a complete after thought. All the more reason I believe this draft will be heavy in the trenches. 

15 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Seems like a good replacement for Chubb in short yardage/goalline situations. 

 I think you're setting your sights a bit low. Just watching snaps from Carolina and Chicago last year, DFs screen game work looks so similar to how Chubb catches the ball from the backfield. 

 Dude would be great for 10-12 carries a game beyond just obviously down to move chains.

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

FA Panthers/Bears RB D'Onte Foreman to sign with Browns

\

 Now THIS is an underrated signing I also like, tossed in with bringing in a better body suited to playing more upback.  Liked Foreman at Texas, dude doesn't have much mileage, he's a bigger RB and he had almost 1k behind a very questionable Carolina Oline a couple years ago.   I could see him as the #2 before training camp is over.

18 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

You ignored my point.  You know, I assume you do, there are many people seeking to find anything wrong with Watson and will jump at the chance to just rip the guy.  Heck, many will not be satisfied with anything he does as QB..

 

Using your logic, it sounds like you are wanting the back-up to play and don't like the selection.

 The Brownies would have been better served, from a talent development standpoint, in trading low draft capital for Fields and sitting him behind Watson.  This is both a smart move in terms of keeping roster churning, but also any potential long term contingency plan.    That's where Flugs is right.

 Every Buckeye and their mother, shouting about Watson getting off the field the moment he throws a single interception, while the cheers rain down for Fields, is another reality you are absolutely correct about as well.     One, I'd reckon, is the biggest reason a trade for Justin wasn't explored further by the front office.

On 3/17/2024 at 10:47 AM, TexasAg1969 said:

I think you will find the sideline to sideline you are looking for in later games in the season. That is where you will find the improvements and better stats from 2022 to 2023 seasons.  https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4430438/edgerrin-cooper

 Two full games later in the season - vs LSU then Ole Miss.  Just more of the same. 

 The increase in sacks was interesting.  So where A&M switched up their deployment was alternating who the 4th man was in pressure in there 3 man, odd front.   If this kid is the 2nd LB off the board, it's a pretty weak draft class.   

4 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I don't think I've given you any shit whatsoever for skill with metrics. I still don't understand why my liking Baker (or Joe Namath or Brian Sipe or Kenny Stabler or Joe Pendleton Etc) pisses some of these guys off so badly.

Anyway on a scale of 1 to 10 one being the best, how do you rate the Watson trade according to the numbers over the last few years?

WSS

 You're welcomed to like Baker. I like Baker and wish him no ill will.  The last home game of his rookie season, I was there, freezing my ass off with the old man, both of us chanting "Ba-ker" with 50k other people.  I appreciate his contributions to this team.  

 Nobody is pissed off at anyone for liking him.  It's the constant reminders, in multiple ways, that he's gone and that the Browns have somehow lost a savior.  Even more so to the point you have "fans" actively hoping we lose or revel in losses just to 'prove a point'.     THAT, is both whiny and intolerable.

 I can one-up your scale. Watson's 2020 season was fantastic and the result of him building off a promising 2018 and a stronger 2019. But I've said before, It is, now not or then, a trade I would have made.  The money only concerns me from a salary cap perspective.    The largest issue(s), and the one that would have held me back were I Jimmy Haslam, was the draft capital surrendered.  It was just too steep.   Then the firm 'no' from Watson's camp to begin with was the cherry on top. 

 I get 'why' they did it.  You haven't drafted and developed an elite QB in 25 years. So you took the biggest gamble trying to secure one who showed that level of promise.  The downside?  It's a gamble done by a snake bitten franchise.   Which means it's an all or nothing investment, one that usually ties the career of it to the GM that pulled the trigger. 

 The only saving grace for Berry is that this team has been a breath away from a wild card berth and made another just this past season.   Remains to be seen if that's enough success to maintain the goodwill towards his personnel moves, should Watson have a down year and the team move on.  

On 3/16/2024 at 6:34 PM, Westside Steve said:

Just for the record I'm not really responding to you but the guys that have embarked on the Jihad against Mayfield because they don't like Cal. Stupid shit like equating a consensual pecadillo in a parking lot with 22 counts of sexual imposition. By the way I know you're brilliant with stats but I bet if I listed my 5 or 10 favorite players ever they wouldn't be the 5 or 10 highest in statistics. If they are for you buy yourself another couple dozen jerseys and change them everyday. So how come we don't do that? And how come we rooted for Balboa over Creed?

As far as my passion for music I love the stuff I love regardless of the stats. I can respect vocalists and or musicians that can do magic tricks but that's really not what moves me about the music. And if I have a hard time understanding how some guys like what they like over on Barbershop I don't try to tell them they're wrong.

But at the end of the day I don't think you are sorry to disappoint but I wish you were. You're a smart guy. Unlike some of the other people that are just assholes. 😄

 

WSS

 

 The metrics and numbers support what Baker has put on film, and the film supports the numbers. 

 I've done both and shown that work on this board.   The nice part about other things being so subjective, is that football is results driven in a much more clear manner.  

14 hours ago, Neo said:

I don't have the football knowledge that you have but what I've seen from Huntley, I think he can beat out both Winston and DTR for the backup role. I would also say that DTR is far from a finished product and he did make some significant strides during the regular season. Would you agree to both of those?

DTR, yes.  He can sit on the practice squad, no harm, no foul.    I also agree he did make positive strides. Then again, when the first outing is so disastrous, the only way to go is up.   

 It will depend on how many turnovers Winston and Huntley have in camp.  If either cleans it up, that's what it'll come down to getting that 2nd spot.  

7 hours ago, FY56 said:

 

Jameis Winston has already made his intentions clear to new teammate Deshaun Watson (msn.com)

headline is intentionally misleading...

The full quote.

"Having the opportunity to work with Deshaun (Watson) and help him be the best he can possibly be, is my main mission," he said via Anderson. "Now, if Deshaun has to heal up for whatever reason, and I have to take a few games off of him, I’m going to be ready to do that."

 Winston understands not only why he will be in Cleveland, but where he is in the pecking order and his primary responsibility.   Like any competitor, he *wants* to be the man and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that mentality.  Helps to drive healthy competition.   By all accounts, the dude has come a long way since FSU and the words from the players who have shared the same locker room echo a very positive sentiment.

 Of course, like Hollywood, we have to create non-existent dramatic flair where there is none.

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

That was a rant that seems to have been bottled up for a long time, and this has been how it goes for a long time.

 

 

Yes, it has been bottled up. 

 While professional football has to generate a profit, again I ask, how much and how far has it removed itself from the common fan?    This is why they maintain the emotional appeal - listen to the draft when fans are brought on to announce picks "My Cleveland Browns select....".  

 It isn't just season ticket costs. Look at all the nickel and dime expenses.  I had to get several apps this year, pay the month fee, just to watch a couple games. Amazon, peacock, CBS, etc etc.     It's the principle of it at this point.  People being bilked for every last dollar.  Stop giving, and the NFL, like any other business, will respond accordingly.  I'm splitting a YouTube TV account with a couple friends this year, getting a digital antenna and That's it.   I'll pirate everything else.    Well, there's the yearly fee for the coaches film, but it falls under fair use so I can't complain. 

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

  I can still hear my Dad complaining because his season tickets went up to $14 a seat. Maybe for the 1965 season.  I have slept since then.

 While the middle class was much stronger than today.

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

I know all about the price of games.  My 2 seats now cost me $4500 a year. I suspect the same people being priced out of going to games are more or less like the people priced out of going to game when tickets went up to $14 a seat.

The underlying point, is the fact that a larger and larger percentage of people are being priced out.  It will come a time when few will be able to afford, or in my case, willing to spend the money. 

But you're right, it is what it is. 

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Just speaking from a football standpoint, the league has expanded to the point where there aren't enough quality players to fill all the job openings.  It started with QB's maybe 20 years ago.  There simply aren't enough quality QB's to fill the 32 starting quality openings.  Half the league is looking for starters.  When they finally get them, the half that has them now won't have them.

 At any given era, there are only a small handful of QBs able to consistently lead their teams to post season wins as the offensive focal point.   These are the talents that you could put on any team, in any offensive system and they'd still find a way to deliver.   Even at 16 teams, you'd still have likely half looking to upgrade to find that elite, top 5 QB every season or at least paying an eye to that future. 

 My comment is more towards the game of football crossing the line from sport that gives an attachment to your soul and community, into the realm of a money driven machine where the bottom line is *all* which matters.  

 The Browns raised their season ticket prices again. Why? It's an incredibly profitable product with a dedicated fan base.   The middle class has been eroding for over 40 years.  Those who would find this game, and their connection to it, being a primary source of enjoyment, are losing that connection.  

 Fans increasingly can't afford to make the games, the die-hard identity group like so many here.  I had an email from tOSU collective about donating to NIL funds.   Fuck. That.   Your most precious resources are your time and your health.  I trade my time for money Everytime I walk into work. I'm not giving additional monies to a collective for a perfectly healthy 17 year old, with the whole world in front of them, just to have them hit the transfer portal when they don't get the playing time they think they've earned or just want more money from year 1 to 2. 

 The NCAA fucked up letting college players scrounge for years while they banked rolled.  Now?  It's all about securing "the bag" for yourself and yourself only.  I hear that about kids going to major schools, nevermind the fact that, as an 18 year old freshman having never set foot on the field, your NIL valuation will be worth more money than what over half the people in those stands make in a year who are older and have worked longer on their lives. 

 The soul of football has been poisoned.  Don't even get me started on how commercialized the Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce thing was/is.   Not that I give an iota of a fuck about their relationship itself, but those Swifty eyes and their mental-illness, idol worshipping selves have made it where the NFL now has a vested interest with profit attached to it to insure that those eyes don't leave the screens.  This Superbowl was the most watched ever,  it is no small coincidence, I'm sure. 

The bottom line, the Almighty dollar itself, has become the single most important thing above all.  It makes me sick. 

 Or as the Joker once said "All you people care about is money" 

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

Look at any Junion Colson tape yet, @tiamat63? 

Not yet.  Weather sucks today. I'm meeting a friend of mine out for a beer, then after that I'll be relaxing all day and jumping on some LB tape.  I'll give you my initial impression later. 

17 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I think this one is a pretty fair overall look at him as a draft pick which is why I think he may still be there for round 3 if we fill a different area round 2. He's teachable and his overall combine score ranked him 1st among LBs. The thing no one seems to take into account is team leadership, something he has that I think will eventually translate well past being a rookie.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/edgerrin-cooper/3200434f-4f53-5990-fc98-570859860963

 

 What boosted his combine score was his 40 time.  There was no shuttle or 3 cone. And downhill, straight line speed as a linebacker is no where near as important as being able to move, start and stop, laterally to recover or pursue.   Combine that with the slower eyes and processing....  I have concerns. 

 And, from the two games I've watched so far, that lack of above average sideline to sideline really stands out. 

 "Leadership" is a cliche' term.  You have to be an elite rookie, contributing immediately, to be a leader.   You have to contribute to be a leader period.    So that's a non-factor in this particular eval. 

 I don't see the Brownies taking another "larger" shade in that Ika mold...  at least, not early.    You've got 5 IDL on roster right now with Dalvin, Ika, Shelby, Mo and Jefferson.    I could see a late round flyer on IDL, and I can see Dalvin going back to playing more 1tech because he was spotty at times playing that 3.     But that isn't including the subpackage snaps given to Alex Wright when he plays some interior on passing downs as well.   

 You can't rule out anything, but at this rate it really narrows down the field to OL, LB and DB for 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks.   If anything, perhaps I'm overlooking edge a bit too much.   Outside of Myles, you've got ZDS who is going to be on a pitch count early, you've got McGuire who will get more minutes, Wright is Wright, and then you've got a DPR with Obgo.  

 So that's 4 position groups that need to be addressed.   Priority is depending on how the front office feels.   If Hicks is looked at as a good plug n play, then I could see it being OL or DB, followed by edge and LB.

edit:  @TexasAg1969  You once mentioned some draft publication having Edgerrin Cooper as the 1st LB taken.  I'd like to have a word about that, because two full games in and I ain't seeing what they're saying - which is basically that he's a day 1 starter.   I see a great downhill, straight line speed and a decent motor.   But that's about it.  At what game in the season am I supposed to be impressed? Because I'd like to watch that and get a better feel.

23 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

You should be more concerned that Todd fucking Bowles found a way to succeed but Kevin fucking Stefanski couldn't.

 

Interesting thought process.  Given that Stefanski and the Browns have/had...

- The same amount of playoff wins with Baker as the starting QB as Tampa. 

- The same amount of playoff wins despite Tampa having, as Cal put it, much better receivers.  

You should consider...

- Bakers numbers, in just about every metric save for INT %, are only marginally better in Tampa with a 17 game season then what they were in the Cleveland 2020 season. That's extrapolating that 2020 pace into a 17 game season and vice versa, the 2023 season into a 16 game grind.   With it, Baker himself improved as a QB, by only the smallest of margins.   That includes having one of the very best X, 50/50 outside receivers in the NFL the last 10 years.  

- Metrics marginally better although Baker is now on a team that went from being 4th in run percentage, to a team that is 19th.   He's being allowed to throw more... But the increase has been a huge "meh" 

- Turnover placement that is, by charts, oddly similar to the turnover markers, coverages and timings on the field from every other stop Baker has had along the way.  (downfield, at/inside the numbers.  Outside numbers at 10-15 yards) 

- Two additional coaching staffs who experienced the same struggles in their evaluations.   Tossing out the high and low results to find our median... McVay opting to not keep Baker as a longer-term solution should be rather telling. 

- Baker playing almost to a tee, the same way in Tampa that he did Cleveland.  If you reduce his attempts or increase them, he has responded proportionally.   Which means he flirts with the line of a top-15 QB in the right situation, and just outside the top 20 in a less favorable one. 

 You should be concerned ....

-  Why you ever thought you'd be able to say something like that, to me, and not have it deconstructed to more accurately reflect what reality on the field really is.

You put your passion into music.

I put mine into football.  

23 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 

 

So again you don't like Cal I get it; just don't read his shit if you can't control your anger or block him or whatever you decide to do.

He's been blocked, I might uncover him on occasion in threads about the draft because he does contribute on off-chance, which is nice.  Beyond that,  I'm sure I'd have seen him chime in by now. 

23 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 

I know you don't like me so you just stay out of my way fine. Disappointing but fine.

WSS

Sorry to disappoint.

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Carolina is the worst team in the league. A 23-year-old Joe Namath couldn't win games there. And again he wouldn't give fuck number one about this if you weren't obsessed with cal.

WSS

 Nobody is obsessed with Cal.  He has, by his actions alone, turned himself into a very mockable, and unlikeable pariah. 

 He's the worst of both worlds. 

- When he says something sensible, he'll beat you over the head with it when said sensibility comes to fruition. 

- When he says something inflammatory, but it's a 50/50... He's a belligerent asshole if the 50% falls in his favor.

- when he's a belligerent asshole and wrong on the 50% (Said Baker would be a  success in Carolina, wished the Browns would lose, etc etc) he's then quiet immediately and for the foreseeable future afterwards. 

 Zero ability to measure his words or read the room and adjust accordingly.  Given his has hundreds, possibly even 4 figures worthy of empty threads on this site, often times with him bumping and talking to himself, a form of adult autism is a likely diagnosis here.  There is no higher functioning brain that acts or speaks in the manner he does in the digital world.   If this was a round table, set in a house and not a forum on the Internet, the body language and lack of engagement alone would see him dismissed from the table.  But, this is the Internet, and he has the ability to ignore the reality of what an in-person conversation would play out like with the same methods and topic.  

 Baker is Baker. He's good enough, he's not NFL elite and my no metric has he ever been for any consistency.  The Browns took a gamble at something greater, a high risk bet I wouldn't have made.  But at least it made sense.    I don't hate Mayfield and I think it's weird if someone does.  But the pimping like he's a savior is annoying, especially when it's accompanied with the trolling.  There are, at any given point, only a few QBs in the NFL who can be 'that' guy. Baker isn't it.  It sucks, but it is what it is.  If the more inflammatory personalities reigned themselves in, they wouldn't find themselves being (rightfully) poked fun at. 

Edit:  Cal talking about Tvondre Sweat is a great example.  To business, no wasted words, no nonsense.  Nobody gives him shit for it.   Posters crack jokes at players the Browns passed up or let move on, but most aren't a dick about it. 

1 hour ago, Vambo said:

 

Browns Signing Former Jets DT Quinton Jefferson To Bolstering D-Line Depth (msn.com)

 Another 3 tech.  The DL vision is starting to come together.  Clearly they want a bit more from the interior rotation after some late season gassing.  Also gives the ability to spell Dalvin a bit more on passing downs this season, who can play all over the front.    Ika has has his time to shine soon as that shade.  I need some run stops from him, even with some limited minutes.  

Browns sign TE/fullback Giovanni Ricci and Tony Brown - a couple of special teamers. 

 Not enough attention being given to this.   One of these guys will be a quasi/spot starter.  Nick Harris and Harrison Bryant have been the one's pulling upback duty for the last couple seasons in various offensive packages.   Now you have a body in there actually more suited to play some lead without giving too many personnel tips and actually making that position more functional beyond just purely situational.  

@gumby73 it's your thread, so I have to ask, is there where you'd like pre-draft assessments given?  I really don't have time to create or manage my own thread.   So I'll pop in specifically for only the position groups and players I'm looking at (LB, IDL, IOL) 

4 hours ago, Neo said:

You're right. And not to derail this thread, you can see it in the auto industry. 

 EVERY industry and enterprise.  Bottom line and only bottom line is considered.    Don't get me wrong, profit is necessary.  But I've watched several companies sacrifice standard and quality to save pennies (while still charging customers/vendors/manufacturers the exact same they were previously)  in everything from personnel (piss poor, ineffective and outside managerial hires that are overpaid the moment they're hired)  to actual raw material back to front house.  

 At some point, the question has to be asked, when is the profit margin enough?   McDonalds has no business charging what they do for their 'food'.   Their net margins and net income have never been higher in the last 5 years, even with their labor costs going up to attract people who were tired of working fast food.  They were perfectly able to pay people more, while maintaining a respectable net/margin and not having to increase costs.   But hot damn, can't have that, now can we?   

 It's no coincidence you see it in what dominates the headlines with music, styles, clothing choices, social circles etc etc etc....   these kids (a lot of people older than 25 as well) are taking on the 80's mindset.  I can't fucking stand the 80's (for the most part) and always hear "Greed is good" in my head when I think of that decade.  (Yes, I'm aware I'm a summer 89' baby) It was the decade of excess and glam that gave way to the darker 90's times in response (and thank Christ for that)

 I'm ranting, but people are fucked.  And I've been of the mindset since I was 17, the less of them I deal with, the better.

4 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Especially when so often this comes with the mindset of "having your cake and eating it too".

Add more but expect the same product without adding resources (or otherwise being against adding them) has made so many parts of life become jaded. You're right, it's crazy that the NFL is so against adding even a few more spots of roster flexibility amongst so many things.

 I don't even need to see "spots"  - 1... ONE.  Give me one extra active spot I can use for either OL or DL.   Until then, the Shield that is the NFL can keep preaching 'safety' while having Thursday games and expanded regular seasons.  It's bullshit, just at a much higher and more profitable level.   Same goes for the collegiate level.   My soul has slowly begun departing from that as well.  

4 hours ago, LondonBrown said:

@AdamSchefter

 

Former Bills RB Nyheim Hines is signing a one-year deal worth up to $3.5 million with the Browns, per sources.

Really liked Hines game when he was in Indy and Buffalo, including him being a real option for special teams effectiveness.     His recent injury though....  

1 hour ago, Neo said:

So, we lost Anthony Walker and TakiTaki, how do people feel about Jordan Hicks? Upgrade? Meh? What direction do we go for replacing TakiTaki? Saw there were some good linebacker available. Patrick Queen was one, Devin White was another. Are they the right fit?

 Watched quite a bit of Hicks in Philly under Schwartz to better understand what we were getting in CLE.  An upgrade, from my assessment. 

Replacing Taki?  Good question, one I don't have an immediate thought on.   Patrick Queen is a good LB, but I doubt we have the cap and willingness to spend it further on that unit group.

 Devin White is frustrating as all hell, because he'll play like he's all world one minute, then like shit the next.  So very inconsistent.

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

 

Quantity over quality.

The world at large has been shifting to this mindset, the last decade or so it has really picked up steam.  Not just in football, but just about every aspect of life. 

 I can't stand it.    Especially when it's something I've loved and been deeply devoted to pretty much my entire life.