Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>What's disproportionate population growth again? I understand the aging part. We've known about the aging Baby Boomer problem for years. We've also known about the smaller population of younger workers needed to support the aging population. That's my generation. There aren't as many of us.>> Socio-economic groups that, traditionally, haven't provided their 'fair share'. I.E, 'takers' rather than 'contributors'. You talk about the smaller percentage of younger workers. I'm talking about segments with a higher rate of reproduction and a traditionally weak work ethic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 John is walking a fine line right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>John is walking a fine line right now>> LOL You're the quant guy, Woody. Do whatever Factor Analysis you'd like; Do some regression analysis; try cross-tabs on correlations; sample some significance testing - maybe 95% level of confidence with +/- 5% accuracy. Maybe change the labels and call them something else. What does the objective analysis say about population trends, coupled with socio-economic level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Idk, I'm killing time at work. My 3D modeling software is pissing me off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Idk, I'm killing time at work. My 3D modeling software is pissing me off LOL, I AM walking a fine line. I guess I better get back to creating tax revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 And I think you'd find correlation but not causation from what I think you're getting at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>What's disproportionate population growth again? I understand the aging part. We've known about the aging Baby Boomer problem for years. We've also known about the smaller population of younger workers needed to support the aging population. That's my generation. There aren't as many of us.>> Socio-economic groups that, traditionally, haven't provided their 'fair share'. I.E, 'takers' rather than 'contributors'. You talk about the smaller percentage of younger workers. I'm talking about segments with a higher rate of reproduction and a traditionally weak work ethic. Eesh. Like I said, I don't think I'd frame it quite this way, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 If we get rid of all the illegals you guys can go do their jobs then. I sure as hell won't Go ahead and say it "because I'M an ENGINEER" (I imagine that in the most annoying voice possible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Go ahead and say it "because I'M an ENGINEER" (I imagine that in the most annoying voice possible) No, because I don't want to be out in a field all day getting paid 70 cents. I wouldn't want to if I had a minimum wage job at McDonald's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>Eesh. Like I said, I don't think I'd frame it quite this way, John.>> For the second time..................frame it for me Heck. Do you consider my description dead-on wrong? Do you find it distasteful? Do you find it troubling? Don't simply say, "All of the Above". As you might expect, I am really only interested in the,"Dead-on wrong" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm guessing you're referring to the Latino population, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm guessing you're referring to the Latino population, correct? Not necessarily. I suspect some findings upon a dive of the data. You oftentimes like to distill findings from data. Why not now? For the record, so-called 'white trash' can be among the socio-economic groups. Separately, if you'd like, then consolicated if that makes the findings more palatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 We really don't have to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>We really don't have to do this.>> I'll take that as an, "Uncle". Now on to the next episode...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Uh, no. Take that as a "I want to like you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 >>Uh, no. Take that as a "I want to like you.">> I'll take it. For future reference, I sometimes spout things for which I have or believe I have the correct data and - other times - I just rant about what I believe to be the case, recognizing my perspective might be shaped by invalid premises. If I am wrong, I actually like to know that I am wrong. Better yet, I like to know where and how. Let's consider this sidebar dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 As long as you distinguish between an entire race and a subgroup that overlaps multiple races. But even then it's not best to generalize,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm guessing you're referring to the Latino population, correct? Actually I thought he was insulting cal. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 No, because I don't want to be out in a field all day getting paid 70 cents. I wouldn't want to if I had a minimum wage job at McDonald's. I take it you're happy with that answer then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I take it you're happy with that answer then I think its dishonest to what you were really going to say, but someone other than illegals should be doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think its dishonest to what you were really going to say, but someone other than illegals should be doing it Heh. Just wait until engineers from india start to fill up the open jobs.... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think its dishonest to what you were really going to say, but someone other than illegals should be doing it Fuck Yeah my future job and even my current one are better than the jobs illegals do. But so are 99% at least of every other job in the US. The fact that I'm going to be an engineer has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with the fact I have any tangible skills whatsoever. You can think I was going to say whatever you want, but I'm just letting you know you are dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Heh. Just wait until engineers from india start to fill up the open jobs.... WSS Not worried about that I don't want you to be either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Not worried about that I don't want you to be either True, you have yet to graduate..... However there is 1 pretty damn good irish band from pittsburgh who has an indian fiddler. called corned beef and curry. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Fuck Yeah my future job and even my current one are better than the jobs illegals do. But so are 99% at least of every other job in the US. The fact that I'm going to be an engineer has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with the fact I have any tangible skills whatsoever. You can think I was going to say whatever you want, but I'm just letting you know you are dead wrong. Mexicans have skills. I've seen them do all manner of construction and carpentry and they do a fine Job. Sometimes even craftsmen, but they're taking that job from an American craftsman by working for 50 dollars a day instead of 100. That's a problem to me. I suspect you are so flippant about it because Mexican illegals are not competing for your job of accruing college debt. And you're right there's not many illegal Mexican engineers, but Steve is also right. The Indians and Chinese will be coming to undercut those jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Mexicans have skills. I've seen them do all manner of construction and carpentry and they do a fine Job. Sometimes even craftsmen, but they're taking that job from an American craftsman by working for 50 dollars a day instead of 100. That's a problem to me. I suspect you are so flippant about it because Mexican illegals are not competing for your job of accruing college debt. And you're right there's not many illegal Mexican engineers, but Steve is also right. The Indians and Chinese will be coming to undercut those jobs. That's true. And while it may be a stereo type it seems to me mexicans are usually fairly friendly people. And don't forget we are talking about probably 10 bucks an hour for vs 30 bucks an hour. Anybody ever watch the plumber? Did it seem like he did anything that would be unreasonable to expect to do yourself? Up at the bay we have a lot of kids from eastern europe. They get paid slightly over minimum wage and are amazed that you can work harder and make more money. Many of the american teens who live with their parents drive cars their parents bought them and go to school on mom and dads tab are much more interested in getting off early to party. I also understand how that could piss someone off. I've been doing my job for a good many years but there is always some weekend warrior ready to come in to work for half what I get. And to be honest? If I were a union member and the club wasn't allowed to hire those kids I'd probably raise hell if someone wanted to change that. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Mexicans have skills. I've seen them do all manner of construction and carpentry and they do a fine Job. Sometimes even craftsmen, but they're taking that job from an American craftsman by working for 50 dollars a day instead of 100. That's a problem to me. I suspect you are so flippant about it because Mexican illegals are not competing for your job of accruing college debt. And you're right there's not many illegal Mexican engineers, but Steve is also right. The Indians and Chinese will be coming to undercut those jobs. I think this is the point that gets lost when people insist, "They do the jobs Americans aren't willing to do." That's often true, but as Cysko notes, it's not like Americans didn't do construction work, or wouldn't do construction work, and now that's primarily done by immigrant labor. Or, where I grew up, I went to school with kids whose parents were landscapers, and who hired lots of kids out of high school to do landscaping jobs. These are mostly done by illegal aliens now. The benefits of this are obviously lower construction and landscaping costs for consumers. The downside is that lots of people who used to do that work no longer can. They've been priced out. Woody isn't going to have a hard time finding a job with an engineering degree from Michigan. He just isn't. What's worrisome for our economy (among the other 100 things) is that there are fewer and fewer jobs for people who don't have engineering degrees from Michigan. So much of these jobs can either be replaced by immigrant labor, or shipped overseas and done cheaper in China or Malaysia or India. These are real problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicopee John Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 >>The benefits of this are obviously lower construction and landscaping costs for consumers. The downside is that lots of people who used to do that work no longer can. They've been priced out.>> But is it really cheaper, Heck. You know what I mean - helping friends and neighbors - not to mention their kids during summer - employed has benefits that go beyond the explicit cost of a transaction. I try to do the right thing but sometimes fall prey to 'hours of convenience', one-stop shopping, and saving a few pennies. IMHO, consumers have a lot to do with this situation. It really bothers me when I see a family store, landscaping outfit, etc. go out of business. A lot of blood, sweat, tears and dreams went out the door. Hidden costs are oftentimes hard to quantify and/or make impressionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckofajobbrownie Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 >>The benefits of this are obviously lower construction and landscaping costs for consumers. The downside is that lots of people who used to do that work no longer can. They've been priced out.>> But is it really cheaper, Heck. You know what I mean - helping friends and neighbors - not to mention their kids during summer - employed has benefits that go beyond the explicit cost of a transaction. I try to do the right thing but sometimes fall prey to 'hours of convenience', one-stop shopping, and saving a few pennies. IMHO, consumers have a lot to do with this situation. It really bothers me when I see a family store, landscaping outfit, etc. go out of business. A lot of blood, sweat, tears and dreams went out the door. Hidden costs are oftentimes hard to quantify and/or make impressionable. Absolutely. That's what the discussion is. But certainly, it's cheaper for the consumer who builds the house. the labor costs are cheaper. The final bill is going to be smaller. That's a separate question from is your community/country better off because you saved money on construction costs by using illegal labor, and which is more important. And would we stop construction companies from hiring illegal labor anyway, or has that ship sailed? This is what immigration reform should be about. Personally, I'd rather see Americans doing those jobs, or legal guest workers, and those companies punished for hiring outside a national system. The only smart way to control illegal immigration is by targeting the supply of jobs for them to do. Clearly there are jobs we need them to do. California's agricultural economy runs on these people, and these are jobs Americans won't do. They just won't. But is there a way to limit them to only those jobs and preserve the others, like construction, that Americans will do? I don't know. It'd be complicated for sure. But as we've seen in the downturn, if the jobs aren't here they stop coming. We're at net zero immigration right now. All the nonsense about fences and border agents and drones and deportation is just political window dressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think this is the point that gets lost when people insist, "They do the jobs Americans aren't willing to do." That's often true, but as Cysko notes, it's not like Americans didn't do construction work, or wouldn't do construction work, and now that's primarily done by immigrant labor. Or, where I grew up, I went to school with kids whose parents were landscapers, and who hired lots of kids out of high school to do landscaping jobs. These are mostly done by illegal aliens now. The benefits of this are obviously lower construction and landscaping costs for consumers. The downside is that lots of people who used to do that work no longer can. They've been priced out. Woody isn't going to have a hard time finding a job with an engineering degree from Michigan. He just isn't. What's worrisome for our economy (among the other 100 things) is that there are fewer and fewer jobs for people who don't have engineering degrees from Michigan. So much of these jobs can either be replaced by immigrant labor, or shipped overseas and done cheaper in China or Malaysia or India. These are real problems. These are real problems and were in perfect agreement here. But what's the real solution? Only one solution I can really see...complete deportation of illegals coupled with total economic reform, American isolationism, and a massive investment on renewable energy and oil independence. Since that's the least likely thing in the world to happen, id venture to guess that we're pretty fucked and we're going to inevitably experience a fall-of-Rome sort of situation. Just switch your germanic barbarians for Mexicans and we're halfway there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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