Nyc Soda Pop Ban

[Chicopee John]

>>Only one solution I can really see...complete deportation of illegals coupled with total economic reform, American isolationism, and a massive investment on renewable energy and oil independence.>>

 

If the above is a solution, Cysco, it's like having somebody decapitate you because you have a sore throat.

 

I was against the Immigration Reform Bill a few years ago because, IMHO, it was short-sighted and was predicated on the notion that 100% of folks registering for citizenship could be thoroughly investigated within 24 hours.

 

In other ways, the Bill took a ragged hatchet to a problem that requires much more finesse and planning.

 

I favor a systemic process that is both workable and, as Heck states, also preserves certain jobs for Americans. INVEST in those industries. TRAIN people in those industries. The American workers will come.

 

On another note, I do believe the American work ethic has erroded over the past 50 or so years. Manual labor isn't all that appealing to many.

 

The old WPA model of having people with hand implements paving highways, etc., just doesn't hold water any more. ONE Maching can do the work of XXX manual workers. To a certain extent, I believe that is a reason why the Stimulous work fell short of target. The paving, etc. companies didn't need to add all that much to their headcount - especially with machinery that had likely been idle for some time and with some talented and trained individuals waiting for another opportunity.

 

As I ramble, I remind myself that this isn't an easy situation. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong to a certain extent. Finding commitment, rather than consensus on a single approach, is needed.

[The Cysko Kid]

This is a partial summary of the causes of the decline and fall of the western Roman empire. There are some interesting parallels and comparisons here

 

 

 

B. Social Causes.

 

1.Slavery had weakened the moral fiber of the citizens and a large discontented mass of people had become disenfranchised. 2.There had been a decline in the traditional Roman citizenry. 3.Moral decay was evident as depicted in its literature, amusements, and lifestyles that often portrayed gratuitous sex and violence. 4.Patriotism declined as people lost their allegiance to the state. 5.Christianity challenged the traditional character traits and caused people to neglect the state when they concentrated on personal salvation.

 

C. Economic Causes.

 

1.As productivity declined, Rome became more dependent on foreign products. 2.A breakdown in the labor force occurred as the traditional work ethic declined. 3.The infrastructure of the cities declined and began a steady decay. 4.A balance of trade deficit began to occur. 5.The cost of government, including the military and welfare, became burdensome. 6.Class economic warfare broke out between the rich and poor. 7.Parts of the empire were not taxed while others were overtaxed. 8.The small farm all but disappeared.

 

D. Political Causes.

 

1.The Romans never really solved the problem of succession. 2.The government was not designed to rule a large, polyglot empire and reform came too late. 3.The government became increasingly run by the rich and the military. 4.Citizens lost interest in government as it became distant to them. 5.The military became less loyal to the country - it became a job not a mission.

[MLD Woody]

True, you have yet to graduate.....

However there is 1 pretty damn good irish band from pittsburgh who has an indian fiddler.

called corned beef and curry.

WSS

 

Really I'll be ok. Maybe I'd be more concerned itmf I was comp Sci or EE ie something like that but even then not much.

 

I'm not talking about crappy online degrees or degrees from third rate universities you've never heard of.

 

Also, if anything, the US isn't producing enough engineers as it is. I've read a lot of articles stating we need a larger emphasis on math and science to make more engineers and compete with countries like China.

 

So, Steve, please don't worry.

[MLD Woody]

This is a partial summary of the causes of the decline and fall of the western Roman empire. There are some interesting parallels and comparisons here

 

 

 

B. Social Causes.

 

1.Slavery had weakened the moral fiber of the citizens and a large discontented mass of people had become disenfranchised. 2.There had been a decline in the traditional Roman citizenry. 3.Moral decay was evident as depicted in its literature, amusements, and lifestyles that often portrayed gratuitous sex and violence. 4.Patriotism declined as people lost their allegiance to the state. 5.Christianity challenged the traditional character traits and caused people to neglect the state when they concentrated on personal salvation.

 

C. Economic Causes.

 

1.As productivity declined, Rome became more dependent on foreign products. 2.A breakdown in the labor force occurred as the traditional work ethic declined. 3.The infrastructure of the cities declined and began a steady decay. 4.A balance of trade deficit began to occur. 5.The cost of government, including the military and welfare, became burdensome. 6.Class economic warfare broke out between the rich and poor. 7.Parts of the empire were not taxed while others were overtaxed. 8.The small farm all but disappeared.

 

D. Political Causes.

 

1.The Romans never really solved the problem of succession. 2.The government was not designed to rule a large, polyglot empire and reform came too late. 3.The government became increasingly run by the rich and the military. 4.Citizens lost interest in government as it became distant to them. 5.The military became less loyal to the country - it became a job not a mission.

 

 

What was point A?

[The Cysko Kid]

>>Only one solution I can really see...complete deportation of illegals coupled with total economic reform, American isolationism, and a massive investment on renewable energy and oil independence.>>

 

If the above is a solution, Cysco, it's like having somebody decapitate you because you have a sore throat.

 

I was against the Immigration Reform Bill a few years ago because, IMHO, it was short-sighted and was predicated on the notion that 100% of folks registering for citizenship could be thoroughly investigated within 24 hours.

 

In other ways, the Bill took a ragged hatchet to a problem that requires much more finesse and planning.

 

I favor a systemic process that is both workable and, as Heck states, also preserves certain jobs for Americans. INVEST in those industries. TRAIN people in those industries. The American workers will come.

 

On another note, I do believe the American work ethic has erroded over the past 50 or so years. Manual labor isn't all that appealing to many.

 

The old WPA model of having people with hand implements paving highways, etc., just doesn't hold water any more. ONE Maching can do the work of XXX manual workers. To a certain extent, I believe that is a reason why the Stimulous work fell short of target. The paving, etc. companies didn't need to add all that much to their headcount - especially with machinery that had likely been idle for some time and with some talented and trained individuals waiting for another opportunity.

 

As I ramble, I remind myself that this isn't an easy situation. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong to a certain extent. Finding commitment, rather than consensus on a single approach, is needed.

 

 

I didn't say it was going to happen. Like I said before its extremely unlikely. But you will have a hard time coming up with another solution that will be effective because there isn't one. Maybe a new golden industrial age of a sort. If only we could put people to work mining mars...

[The Cysko Kid]

What was point A?

 

Invasion and occupation by germanic barbarians.

[Westside Steve]

Well that won't happen.

politicians want to vote and not 1 of us here will accept the spike in prices and a drop in the standard of living once we double wages and eliminate foreign imports.

 

And Woody's job might be the one completely un effected by market changes.

Could be there is no such thing as self serve check out, ATM Machines, Nurse practitioners, Nurses aides, paralegals, legal zoom, Karaoke machines, Tire building machines,Traffic cameras, draftsmen or educated immigrants in the field of engineering.

( Assuming he graduates)

We shall see.

Of course unless those prices and products are completely controlled by the government rest assured that everyone from Heck to T will comparison shop for the best possible price.

WSS

[MLD Woody]

Invasion and occupation by germanic barbarians.

 

We at least we are clear there, lol

 

was that like some research paper outline?

[The Cysko Kid]

We at least we are clear there, lol

 

was that like some research paper outline?

 

More or less but causes are well defined by many sources. I didn't want to cut and paste whole tracts of more in depth information here

[MLD Woody]

Well that won't happen.

politicians want to vote and not 1 of us here will accept the spike in prices and a drop in the standard of living once we double wages and eliminate foreign imports.

 

And Woody's job might be the one completely un effected by market changes.

Could be there is no such thing as self serve check out, ATM Machines, Nurse practitioners, Nurses aides, paralegals, legal zoom, Karaoke machines, Tire building machines,Traffic cameras, draftsmen or educated immigrants in the field of engineering.

We shall see.

Of course unless those prices and products are completely controlled by the government rest assured that everyone from Heck to T will comparison shop for the best possible price.

WSS

 

I didn't really get that middle point.

 

And of course, I'm always buying something where it's the cheapest. Assuming getting to it or having it shipped is the same.

 

I know a ton of really smart foreign engineers at Michigan, what's your point?

[Westside Steve]

 

 

So, Steve, please don't worry.

Oh I'm not.

Worst case scenario Heck will hire you.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Well that won't happen.

politicians want to vote and not 1 of us here will accept the spike in prices and a drop in the standard of living once we double wages and eliminate foreign imports.

 

And Woody's job might be the one completely un effected by market changes.

Could be there is no such thing as self serve check out, ATM Machines, Nurse practitioners, Nurses aides, paralegals, legal zoom, Karaoke machines, Tire building machines,Traffic cameras, draftsmen or educated immigrants in the field of engineering.

( Assuming he graduates)

We shall see.

Of course unless those prices and products are completely controlled by the government rest assured that everyone from Heck to T will comparison shop for the best possible price.

WSS

 

But we're not talking about maintaining jobs that no longer exist because of technological changes. We're talking about the possibility of maintaining some level of control over illegal immigration so that some of these skilled, higher paying jobs are preserved for citizens.

 

In the long run this is about education, of course, but that's another subject for another time.

[Westside Steve]

I didn't really get that middle point.

 

And of course, I'm always buying something where it's the cheapest. Assuming getting to it or having it shipped is the same.

 

I know a ton of really smart foreign engineers at Michigan, what's your point?

Sorry, my point is that doctors lawyers architect musicians bank tellers auto workers etcetra have all felt the pinch of being replaced not necessarily buy illegal immigrants but by technology and lesser educated specialists.

That point was in response to Hecks assumption that engineering is future proof.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

And since every 1 of us shops for bargains the companies will cut costs wherever possible.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Sorry, my point is that doctors lawyers architect musicians bank tellers auto workers etcetra have all felt the pinch of being replaced not necessarily buy illegal immigrants but by technology and lesser educated specialists.

That point was in response to Hecks assumption that engineering is future proof.

WSS

 

An American kid with an engineering degree from Michigan is about as future proof as you're going to get.

[Chicopee John]

>>In the long run this is about education, of course, but that's another subject for another time.>>

 

I agree.

 

Education has to be multi-faceted and go well beyond traditional College or University education - not that this is unimportant, however.

 

To me an ideal situation is to have a manufacturing company - having one in the first place might be the biggest hurdle, however - feeding needed skills to and receiving properly skilled employees back from a local Community College, Trade School, etc.

 

It is a struggle here as it is in many places............a College education is held in (deserved, for the most part) esteem, while 'the trades' and Associate Degree skills aren't valued in a way they should.

 

Rather than starting with Education, I'd start by doing whatever is necessary to increase manufacturing opportunities and, then, developing a system of technical, community schools like I described.

 

Some people aren't cut out for 'book work'. However, given the means to obtain a decent living, I believe there is a pool of talent that is waiting for opportunity.

[heckofajobbrownie]

And since every 1 of us shops for bargains the companies will cut costs wherever possible.

WSS

 

That's the point. And we want them to cut costs wherever possible. But there are also basic laws they need to follow, like minimum wages and environmental laws about not dumping their untreated waste and 40-hour work weeks, that we decided have to be upheld. You could also decide that if you're in a business like construction, and lots of Americans would do those jobs, that you can't hire illegal aliens to do it instead. That doesn't mean the construction company cannot offer wages where they want to. It just means it can't be an illegal worker paid below minimum wage.

 

Like I said, this would be tough to do and enforce, but not impossible. You'd just have to fine businesses that did hire illegals. The problem would be classifying which industries could hire guest workers and which couldn't. That's problematic, and possibly problematic enough to not want to do this at all.

[MLD Woody]

An American kid with an engineering degree from Michigan is about as future proof as you're going to get.

 

I'm also tall

[MLD Woody]

Sorry, my point is that doctors lawyers architect musicians bank tellers auto workers etcetra have all felt the pinch of being replaced not necessarily buy illegal immigrants but by technology and lesser educated specialists.

That point was in response to Hecks assumption that engineering is future proof.

WSS

 

We're the ones making that technology.

 

And no career is future proof, including engineering. Just ask my dad and the nuclear engineering degree he got right after 3 mile island. Of course, everything still worked out and he has a good job, it's just not in nuclear engineering.

 

But as far as future proof careers go, engineering is close. Unemployment during a normal economy is like 1%. I'm sure it's even better when you throw out online degrees and degrees from less than reputable schools.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and an emphasis on vocational schools would be a good thing. Like Cysko said not everyone is cut out for "book work" but thus way they can still pave a career for themselves in something we need.

[The Cysko Kid]

We're the ones making that technology.

 

And no career is future proof, including engineering. Just ask my dad and the nuclear engineering degree he got right after 3 mile island. Of course, everything still worked out and he has a good job, it's just not in nuclear engineering.

 

But as far as future proof careers go, engineering is close. Unemployment during a normal economy is like 1%. I'm sure it's even better when you throw out online degrees and degrees from less than reputable schools.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and an emphasis on vocational schools would be a good thing. Like Cysko said not everyone is cut out for "book work" but thus way they can still pave a career for themselves in something we need.

 

When did I say that?

[MLD Woody]

When did I say that?

 

My bad. John said that not you.

I blame posting from my phone at work.

[calfoxwc]

Little Johnnie Woodpecker has a flimsy excuse for being

 

a doofus that he uses all the time - which is most of the time too much.

 

Heck taught him well.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Cal, how old are you? Seriously. A real question. How old are you?

 

I'm 38. You?

[Westside Steve]

But we're not talking about maintaining jobs that no longer exist because of technological changes. We're talking about the possibility of maintaining some level of control over illegal immigration so that some of these skilled, higher paying jobs are preserved for citizens.

 

In the long run this is about education, of course, but that's another subject for another time.

Yes it is.

Too bad these threads meander so.

But I think I'm right on the education bubble point.

Maybe we can create another topic. I still think regulation of public health practices is interesting.

WSS

[MLD Woody]

Make an education bubble thread

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yes, we can leave this to the public health thread. It's really interesting stuff. The obesity problem is only growing, so to speak. And it's very costly.

 

I think the first step would be to stop subsidizing the inputs that make bad food so cheap and attractive. And this has bipartisan support ...until it doesn't. It's quite a lesson in how DC works. Just about every economist will tell you that these are bad policies. Most people think they're bad policies. Even most members of Congress think they're bad policies. And they also get renewed every year, because people make lots of money this way.

[The Cysko Kid]

You can't educate the lazy out of people. You can not teach someone to respect themselves. That's just hippie talk. There will always be lazy fat bastards with no self respect even if the nazis take the soda pop away.

[heckofajobbrownie]

[Westside Steve]

Thought of you yesterday, heck.

Stopped for gas at a circle k in the less affluent part of town.

Something was amiss with the pumps and it was about a 5 minute wait inside.

We all kind of bonded in the shared adversity but what I did notice was the fact that almost every 1 of the patrons had purchased what they call a polar pop a signature product of that particular chain of stores. A polar pop is an inxpenses soft drink served in what seems to be a small wash tub. I was wondering how much white sugar is contained in 1 of those bad boys.

WSS

[MLD Woody]

It could do a lot of people a lot of good to do something as simple as cut pop out of their diet