Question for the Board

[Guest Masters]

Ahh but here's the rub...THEY HAD NO IDEA Tom Brady would be that good. If they did, why was Bledso starting ahead of him? And for every Brady and Samuel they picked, they've had some flops...again....scouting is a CRAP SHOOT.

 

NE is sucessful because they scheme and coach well no matter who the player is. Hence your cassell example....

 

I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.

 

Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.

[Solon16]

OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.

 

and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.

 

NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff? i make an off hand remark about stealing some of there staff and you go off the deep end.

[Solon16]

I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.

 

Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.

 

YOU say that I say No one placed Value on his HEART!

 

[Guest Masters]

OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.

 

and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.

 

Exact JADBF!

[rich4eagle]

Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me

 

 

[Guest Masters]

NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff?

 

How does AJ Smith and his staff find the guys I pointed out? Yet no one is trying to go get him away from SD or members of his staff.

 

As I said earlier, Colbert is the GM already for PIT. He doesn't report to a coach, like Pioli essentially did. He already reports directly to the owners. No one backs up the truck for Colbert because you next to never see another team give up picks and everything else it would take to take away a current GM from another team.

 

As to guys on his staff, see the AJ Smith example. Your guess is as good as mine. I'd venture that it is simple, no one on Colberts staff is seen around the NFL as being able to be that decision maker as an NFL GM.

[Solon16]

What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same.

 

Exactly my point...........OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT

 

 

[Guest Masters]

Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me

 

Of course Paul Brown eventually pigeon holed that athelete as well. See your example of Jim Brown. Jim got to do a lot more and be even more productive after Paul was fired and the playbook was opened up even more for Jim (sweeps, receiving, etc.).

[Solon16]

That was your question orginally. and then you commented on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns scouts and complained. and that's when we jumped in......

 

Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?

 

[Guest Masters]

What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same.

 

Exactly my point...........OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT

 

That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.

[rich4eagle]

seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not

 

and that is what separates the winners from the herd

[Guest Masters]

Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?

 

Only in year 1. Savage revamped the scouting department with a ton of people from BALT. The same people that once worked with Kokonis and Savage in BALT.

 

We have also seen reports where who the scouts thought should be drafted and Butch chose differed. Same with Savage, the scouts, and RAC. In both cases, the problem was the guy making the final call abandonded his board and went with their gut, which turned out to be wrong. That ain't the scouts fault, that's the decision makers fault.

 

We have also been down this road on this board many times. You can stack Savages late round picks for the last 2-3 years against any team, and you'll find equal amounts of hit and miss. In day two, it's a crap shoot. Not to mention the majority of second day picks don't start being regular producers for 2-3 years after being drafted.

[Solon16]

That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.

 

May cause I think our scouts have failed miserably? You make an assumption about 95% of scouts write the same things...I disagree.

What you are saying is Draft boards, made up of scouting reports, are 95% the same are you not?

[Guest Masters]

seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not

 

and that is what separates the winners from the herd

 

Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.

 

At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.

[Solon16]

Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.

 

At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.

 

So you are saying at the end of the day......OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT

 

 

ha ha ha ha

 

[rich4eagle]

Masters, Well, in essence then you agree with me......the geniuses are few and they have a bunch of assistants doing diligence for them. That is why I stay away from hiring the the assistant of brilliance

[Guest Masters]

May cause I think our scouts have failed miserably? You make an assumption about 95% of scouts write the same things...I disagree.

What you are saying is Draft boards, made up of scouting reports, are 95% the same are you not?

 

No, even scouting reports. Go to scouts inc, then Todd McShay, then Mayock, and another other scouts, or scouting services. You can read their scouting reports and 95% will say almost the exact same thing about the same player.

 

Draft boards by team will vary greatly, because teams have different needs, schemes, etc.

 

How have CLE's scouts failed miserably? Have you read their scouting reports? Did you see who they recommended? No, you didn't. You saw who Butch or Phil decided to pick. Not who was necessarily recommended as the pick. I mean shit, word was that the scouting department felt CLE should have been drafting Ngata that year, but Phil felt he knew better.

 

 

[Guest Masters]

So you are saying at the end of the day......OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT

 

 

ha ha ha ha

 

Not very much when talking pure scouts/scouting reports, which is what JADBF and I were talking about.

[Guest Masters]

Masters, Well, in essence then you agree with me......the geniuses are few and they have a bunch of assistants doing diligence for them. That is why I stay away from hiring the the assistant of brilliance

 

We just about do on this one (I know, shocking ). Like in all areas of business, you got to have your gurnts do the diligence for you. Then at the top, you take that info and make the best decision based on what you have, plus your own savy.

 

As for the assistant of brilliance, they all have to come from some where. BB was once that to Parcells, as one example. He certainly passed the teacher up. But if your gonna go get one of those assistant of brilliance, you better be damn sure his shine is his own, and not just a reflection from the one above them. Say in the case of Dimitroff of ATL, obviously he had his own shine and it wasn't just the reflection from BB or Pioli.

[rich4eagle]

Good post, I will keep my eye on Dimitroff......and see what happens. Bottom line is IMPACT PLAYERS MAKE THE DIFFERNCE GET THEM

[Solon16]

Good post, I will keep my eye on Dimitroff......and see what happens. Bottom line is IMPACT PLAYERS MAKE THE DIFFERNCE GET THEM

 

Tell me...who are the impact players in this draft?

 

[rich4eagle]

I will be honest with you I lost interest in sorting it out. So this year, I have no choice about impact players. My guess is Beanie Wells can be big time if he can stay healthy and Crabtree can be the real deal. Other than that I have no opinion and am not gaga over either of those two either. Sanchez is intriguing if I were the Browns I would pick him.

 

And who do you think the impact players are and I do understand you have studied way more than me this year

[Guest Masters]

Good post, I will keep my eye on Dimitroff......and see what happens. Bottom line is IMPACT PLAYERS MAKE THE DIFFERNCE GET THEM

 

They do. Then again, I'd say many guys wouldn't be quite the impact player under different coaches. In the end, it comes down to the combination of people who can spot them, and people who can make/get the most out of those players. As JADBF pointed out with Harrison of PIT. Dude was cut multiple times, practice squaded, etc. Yet was made into an impact player.

[rich4eagle]

Part of being impact is given talent and part is getting better as time progresses.........a lot of players get no better after say 21 and some keep getting better........and I surmise few talent scouts look at the quality of always improving year after year............

 

young people reach there peak when........the key is get guys who are still accelerating to the peak

[Solon16]

How have CLE's scouts failed miserably? Have you read their scouting reports? Did you see who they recommended? No, you didn't.

 

Have you seen Pitt's scouting reports? Have you seen the 31 other teams scouting reports to compare? no you haven't...so saying that 95% are the same is CONJECTURE and Opinion...last time I checked Mayock, Mcxxxxstick, and kiper were TV analyst

[rich4eagle]

Pittsburgh has been absolute superior in not overpaying and letting people go who want more than worth..................

 

That is also part of the Rooney philosophy stay young and do not overpay and only load the money truck for true franchise players

[Guest Masters]

Part of being impact is given talent and part is getting better as time progresses.........a lot of players get no better after say 21 and some keep getting better........and I surmise few talent scouts look at the quality of always improving year after year............

 

young people reach there peak when........the key is get guys who are still accelerating to the peak

 

Another thing we'd agree on Rich.

[Guest Masters]

How have CLE's scouts failed miserably? Have you read their scouting reports? Did you see who they recommended? No, you didn't.

 

Have you seen Pitt's scouting reports? Have you seen the 31 other teams scouting reports to compare? no you haven't...so saying that 95% are the same is CONJECTURE and Opinion...last time I checked Mayock, Mcxxxxstick, and kiper were TV analyst

 

Mayock actually scouts and is a former player. McShay has worked as a talent evaluator. They were two examples. I didn't even mention Kiper, who is for sure just a TV talking head. I see you decided to skip ripping scouts inc. Yet in a Rey thread, you'll jump on board with quotes from another scouting service. Hmm....

 

Scouts and scouting players are very different than the guy picking players. It's hardly conjecture when I can pull you scouting reports from dozens of scouting services, as well as quotes from actual NFL scouts.

 

Saying CLE scouting department and it's current employees, with zero to go on, other than the drafts of two INDIVIDUALS, is conjuncture.

[Guest Masters]

Pittsburgh has been absolute superior in not overpaying and letting people go who want more than worth..................

 

That is also part of the Rooney philosophy stay young and do not overpay and only load the money truck for true franchise players

 

Even more importantly, they never let that guy go until they have someone to fill that hole. The only recent exception is with their OL. But I doubt that will go unresolved.

 

[Solon16]

Mayock actually scouts and is a former player. McShay has worked as a talent evaluator. They were two examples. I didn't even mention Kiper, who is for sure just a TV talking head. I see you decided to skip ripping scouts inc. Yet in a Rey thread, you'll jump on board with quotes from another scouting service. Hmm....

 

Scouts and scouting players are very different than the guy picking players. It's hardly conjecture when I can pull you scouting reports from dozens of scouting services, as well as quotes from actual NFL scouts.

 

Saying CLE scouting department and it's current employees, with zero to go on, other than the drafts of two INDIVIDUALS, is conjuncture.

 

Get over it dude...I mentioned off handed we should steal some of pittsbughs STAFF. Quit being a Retard. point is was and shall be people's opinions differ. IF You want to argue that...your stupid! to say if you line up 20 different scouts and 18 are going to have the same opinions is insane!