choco Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 well if you only talk to Super Bowl fans, you sure won't talk to anyone connected to the browns.... Man, you just fail so, so bad at trolling. Seriously, keep practicing though....we're gonna get some great laughs at your expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco918 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 well if you only talk to Super Bowl fans, you sure won't talk to anyone connected to the browns.... Dude seriously, go wash the sand out of your vagina. It's not the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Choco, very well put. You too Gunner. JayJay, you're repeating yourself. I think Manziel is a visual learner, meaning it sinks in when what he sees what's happening on the field just like he sees it in his mind. He's made a comment or two when asked about learning the playbook that led me to think that. Talked about "seeing" the play. The plus side to all that is that it's just a matter of reps before he gets it. I'm also starting to think that the whole scrambling thing is like a light switch to him, and he just needs to work on when he hits the switch. Been hitting it a little too early l think in the preseason. Again it's nothing that reps and trust in what his teammates can and can't do won't fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Town's Soldier Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thanks for the great thoughts chico, gunner and tour. That is more of what i expected when I logged on today. Thats all i was asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sienn13 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Happy Hoyer is starting! I think the competition fucked both him and mazel! It gave neither a chance to get a rhythm with the line or receivers . I blame the media and all the dumb fucks that forget every QB we have had since Couch. I hope JF learns and does the team right, would love to replace my TIM COUCH jersey with a QB that takes the Browns to the play offs. But I'm not holding my breath or getting on my knees for the next so called savior! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 what ever happened to the "you got to earn it" bullshit pettine was blowing up our ass..."3 and out" hoyer didn't earn anything but the bench....but the homey is starting.....pettine is an idiot with no experience with an offense...that's what's painfully obvious.....i guess if you grew up in cleveland, you've "earned it"....pathetic.... Yup, we've been hearing this for the past three months from the Man-zealots JFF is the best thing to hit the NFL since face masks. Guess what? If Manziel had posted a 99 qbr (like Bortles) he would be the starting quarterback for the Browns. He didn't, and he isn't. the best move for the browns would be to start rex grossman, and continue to develop manziel and shaw....i'd cut home town hoyer....he's played like shit.... And Grossman hasn't, on a much bigger sample size? Care to take a look at his stats before you stick your foot in your mouth again? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrosRe00.htm Listen up- Rex was brought here for one reason he knows Shanahan's offense cold- his ability to execute it is lacking. Rex is so great- he hasn't throw a pass in the NFL in the last two years. BTW, one trick pony JFF fans with zero objectivity aren't much welcome around here. We've been cutting them from the board pretty regularly of late. I view these PRESEASON performances purely through the prism of how the QB, or any player, does their job. I put much less emphasis on the result of any play versus the execution of the play. There's so many moving parts in preseason that its hard to make direct comparisons. Vanilla play calling goes hand in hand with coaches calling plays to check a situation. Creating adversity if you will.... Bubble players constantly in and out of the lineups.... Scrambles put up a better stat line for sure....but that also tells the tale of how stats lie. Hoyers mid and long range accuracy was piss poor....but he was making the right read, getting the ball out on time, and into a catchable window. He simply missed the throws. That can be cured by reps. While concerning, it demonstrates that execution of a given play is greatly dependent on first and foremost, understanding of the play relative to the defensive scheme. Its impossible to consistently make good decisions if one lacks the knowledge and understanding to process the information at hand to reach a good decision. So while Boyer does not possess the natural athletic gifts of scrambles, he has probably the most important gift to succeeding at the NFL level....the understanding. Without that part, succeeding is so much more difficult. What remains to be seen is whether he can turn understanding into points and wins. Conversely....the Lil guy just doesn't know what to do with his athleticism. I'll be honest here....while even the stanchest manzealots are cringing an blaming the coaches, I'm become ever more a fan. I like what he says since TC has started. He's much smarter than I thought. I don't think it'll be long before the patterns in the playbook click, the defenses begin to look similar, and movements become predictable. I'm pretty excited to see him if it all comes together for him. I actually think it will....so step away from the ledge at least until next season. Fuck man....weeden got 2 seasons.....right? I think pettiness has done an admirable job considering the coverage around the browns for a first year HC. He's gonna make mistakes, either we accept that people are fallible and deserve some time to correct those mistakes, or we invite the revolving door that been this FO and team. Chill the fuck out, stop being so knee jerk and fickle and watch what unfolds. Hey jayjay- this is what we want to see out of you, not Hoyer sucks, Manziel great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradyBunchBust Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Do you think Coach had to make Hoyer starter because Manziel didn't study they play book or show that he really wanted to be QB? Or did Hoyer deserve it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 You started a new topic with this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradyBunchBust Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 You started a new topic with this question? Different question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brnfan16 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hopefully he looks more like he did last year than he did in this preseason. Thats what Im banking on too. I mean last year he was clicking and Im saying where did this guy come from. Then knowing hes been around Tom Brady for years tells me he had to pickup alot of knownledge from him. Its a solid pick and our best chance to win. Sit down Johnny he will be out there this year regardless, Hoyer ain't going make all 16 games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 i guess going 3 and out on almost every possession and never scoring a touchdown is what passes for "earning it" in cleveland....but the homey's going to start, so all's good.... Your problem is you have to "guess"... I think Manziel is a visual learner, meaning it sinks in when what he sees what's happening on the field just like he sees it in his mind. He's made a comment or two when asked about learning the playbook that led me to think that. Talked about "seeing" the play. Good catch... prompted me to remember the clip where Gruden asked him for a play call... response came v e r y - - s l o w l y. So what we have is an instinctual player having to think on the field and that's never a good thing. Different question.... ... and now same thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringleader Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 I think Manziel may be a visual learner but if he's going to pan out as something special (which I think can happen) he's going to need a coach that will let him go out and make plays. Not comparing them straight up, but he reminds me a lot of Brett Favre who just did some amazingly stupid things early, but his talents eventually outweighed the risks he took. If they try to control and contain Manziel it will be harder for him to deliver the way he's used to delivering. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbr Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 I am going to throw a couple of things out here. What happened to rg3 under kyle? How well does kyle's scheme really fit the roster? How similar would you scheme an offense for manziel than hoyer? Have you sensed that the scheme has been adjusted wisely for either? I submit that the offense littered on the field like last years trash so far, under both qb's, looks to me like nothing more than random playbook pages from daddy's playbooks, with little understanding of why a certain roster might do better with certain concepts. I submit that the browns are going nowhere with hoyer long term. He's never been a top 10 qb at any level and never will be. So what is this year all about? I submit that the browns missed the boat this offseason and have very little time to get back on track. The time is now to find out if manziel is ever going to be the guy. If he ever is, it wont be running the offense kyle is putting on the field. In college, manziel was the greatest to ever play the game, in certain ways. He saw the field quicker than anyone. He could break from a drop back better than anyone. He could scramble like barry sanders, yet keep his eyes downfield, and find and hit receivers at the same time from any body position. If you design plays to give him space, keep his eyes downfield, and make sure the team knows to stay with their blocks and routes longer, he'll be a star. But if you want his eyes on the back in play action, or on an end in zone read option, you are taking away every advantage he has that no other qb can do. Bottom line, this scheme is below average for hoyer, and literally the worst possible situation for manziel to be forced into. Playing hoyer this way will get you 4-7 wins. Throwing it all out the window and putting the right scheme in to give manziel his best shit might get you more losses in september, But by november you'll either have a superstar or you'll know you need another qb next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbr Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Meant to say shot, not shit but whatever. Watch the last 6 tamu games of 20*12* Thats how you use manziel. The oc in 2013 didnt know what he was doing. Manziel will not beat an nfl safety with the angle around the corner in zone read or play action. But if you put him in the shotgun and make them rush him, he will litter the fricking field with the shoes and jockstraps of probowlers trying to get a hand on him. He's that quick. And he'll hit a wr anywhere on the field while doing it. Or get the first and slide. No one else in the nfl can do that. Not vick in his prime. Not cunningham. No one. If he's going to get it done in the nfl, that is how. If you want him to run a 7 step drop, zone read play action game he may do ok, but if thats the scheme your own oc has done what every defense he ever played tried but failed to do: Bottle him up and limit his options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 I am going to throw a couple of things out here. What happened to rg3 under kyle? Better question: What happened to ALL the "running" QB's......Answer: NFL defenses How well does kyle's scheme really fit the roster? Who would know??....they are still working out the roster, learning the players and practicing. We havent seen one whole game or a final roster yet. How similar would you scheme an offense for manziel than hoyer? I would need QB's that could execute a similar offense, as I dont think a 2 offense system works. Have you sensed that the scheme has been adjusted wisely for either? See answer #2 I submit that the offense littered on the field like last years trash so far, under both qb's, looks to me like nothing more than random playbook pages from daddy's playbooks, with little understanding of why a certain roster might do better with certain concepts. That would be correct and exactly what they have said. Practice games with scripted plays and no game planning. Just trying execute basic plays, without injury or revealing anything too sensitive I submit that the browns are going nowhere with hoyer long term. He's never been a top 10 qb at any level and never will be. So what is this year all about? Thats easy. NO ONE has said he's the answer long term. They've just said he's better right now. Again and again and again...JF ISNT READY AND HASN'T LEARNED THE SYSTEM YET.....holy freaking crap I submit that the browns missed the boat this offseason and have very little time to get back on track. The time is now to find out if manziel is ever going to be the guy. Craziest assessment Ive ever heard. They killed it in Free Agency and hit on 4 out of their first 5 draft picks. JF is the only one that hasn't WOWED anyone yet... If he ever is, it wont be running the offense kyle is putting on the field. Dunno...again...Im not arrogant enough to make that claim so soon.....time will tell In college, manziel was the greatest to ever play the game, in certain ways. He saw the field quicker than anyone. He could break from a drop back better than anyone. He could scramble like barry sanders, yet keep his eyes downfield, and find and hit receivers at the same time from any body position. Tebow was better. 1 Heisman , PLUS 3 Championships. Just sayin. But, have no fear, I think your guy is just as good!!! If you design plays to give him space, keep his eyes downfield, and make sure the team knows to stay with their blocks and routes longer, he'll be a star. If he could learn a few plays, that would be great!!!....or should we just tell the receivers to "just go out and he'll find ya'"....hahaha....niiice But if you want his eyes on the back in play action, or on an end in zone read option, you are taking away every advantage he has that no other qb can do. Um....we'd like for him to know where EVERYONE is.....THATS how you win in the NFL.....it's TIMING not visuals...passing and running lanes close FAST in the NFL(as JF has already learned and talked about) so he better be able to throw the ball BEFORE the lane opens and before the receiver hits his mark....how can he do that, without knowing the plays??? Bottom line, this scheme is below average for hoyer, and literally the worst possible situation for manziel to be forced into. Dunno...again...Im not arrogant enough to make that claim so soon.....time will tell.......Forced into???....didn't Manziiel text "come get me?????" Playing hoyer this way will get you 4-7 wins. Throwing it all out the window and putting the right scheme in to give manziel his best shit might get you more losses in september Playing Manziel right now will get you no wins and a broken rookie. Period. But by november you'll either have a superstar or you'll know you need another qb next season. Hey now..... I do agree with that.....and Jf will get his chance....you JF lovers just gotta stop crying like bitches before anyone even plays a game....butch up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbr Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 No running qb's !? Have you been watching football? Vick before jail, cunningham, elway, young, tarkington, kaeparnik, newton, rg3, only some of the best in any era. Manziel's individual accomplishments in college Dwarfed what any of those guys did. His 3rd and 4th down conversion rate in college was over TWICE what any of those guys ever did. He's got unique abilities. If you arent going to try to use any of them you shouldnt draft him. So far the team is deliberately avoiding using them. There is no point in starting him or keeping him on the team. If all you want is a guy to stand tall in a tight pocket and throw a quick out he's not your man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 No running qb's !? Have you been watching football? Vick before jail, cunningham, elway, young, tarkington, kaeparnik, newton, rg3, only some of the best in any era. Manziel's individual accomplishments in college Dwarfed what any of those guys did. His 3rd and 4th down conversion rate in college was over TWICE what any of those guys ever did. He's got unique abilities. If you arent going to try to use any of them you shouldnt draft him. So far the team is deliberately avoiding using them. There is no point in starting him or keeping him on the team. If all you want is a guy to stand tall in a tight pocket and throw a quick out he's not your man. GTFO of here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 No running qb's !? Have you been watching football? Vick before jail, cunningham, elway, young, tarkington, kaeparnik, newton, rg3, only some of the best in any era. z No running qb's !? Have you been watching football? Vick before jail, cunningham, elway, young, tarkington, kaeparnik, newton, rg3, only some of the best in any era. Manziel's individual accomplishments in college Dwarfed what any of those guys did. His 3rd and 4th down conversion rate in college was over TWICE what any of those guys ever did. He's got unique abilities. If you arent going to try to use any of them you shouldnt draft him. So far the team is deliberately avoiding using them. There is no point in starting him or keeping him on the team. If all you want is a guy to stand tall in a tight pocket and throw a quick out he's not your man. Vick, cunningham, kaeparnik, newton and rg3 ALL learned the offense, know how to read an NFL defense and can play from the pocket.... Elway, Tarkenton and Young were pocket QB's first, who ran only when needed(they usually used RB's to carry the ball)...meaning they didn't need special plays just to make things happen....nope, they actually executed their offense like a coordinated team that had a plan.... And I didn't say running QB's cant play....But Vick never won anything, RG111 got broke immediately and Newton is GREAT from the pocket.... But Ill correct it to say...Ive never seen a running QB who couldn't operate out of the pocket win anything....k? and no one cares about "college" accomplishments. Rally....the list of failed "cant miss stars" is too long to even contemplate. Johnnys college accomplishments are now just ancient history. The only thing they were good for is an initial draft rating ....and his was #22...... Now it's a clean slate again and time to start "accomplishing" ...... As a pro, his "NFL accomplishments" are 2nd team back up, lots of photo ops and 2 fines ,,,,,lets see how it goes....shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Cbr, welcome to the board. Manziel will get it, but it will take more time. The OC is in the unique and kinda sucky position to where he's pressured to win now (NFL, go figure) but to also win later. College to the NFL is like algebra to trigonometry. Same concepts but everyone's trying to out think each other, and the good ones do a good job at that. Playing Manziel now will likely make for a rough start. Best case scenario he loses some games and lives. The offense just got more complex so he NEEDS to know what the blocking scheme is and where the receivers are going to be to succeed, just like in college. He just ain't there yet, that's all. I'm personally kinda stoked at the thought that now the whole starting rigamarole is over with he can relax and imprint the plays in his noggin. Once he does that, look out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkside5 Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Hoyer is a lot better than most of you think. Hide and watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 Vick, cunningham, kaeparnik, newton and rg3 ALL learned the offense, know how to read an NFL defense and can play from the pocket.... Elway, Tarkenton and Young were pocket QB's first, who ran only when needed(they usually used RB's to carry the ball)...meaning they didn't need special plays just to make things happen....nope, they actually executed their offense like a coordinated team that had a plan.... With you... except for Young... he had over 100 carries both his Jr and Sr year at BYU. He learned to be a pocket passer in SF after running for his life with the Bucs... I am surprised how many folks erroneously think that Tarkenton was a running QB. As you said he was not. He was a scrambling QB... out of necessity with the then expansion Vikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cbr Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 Agree no one makes the hall of fame as a qb because if their rushing. But your point about tarkington (archie manning and favre arr more great examples) is right on. You dont CALL read options and play action keepers with these guys. You put them in a position to succeed in todays world by shotgun, pistol, all manner of means to five your qb space and vision. Frankly, last night it is starting to look like shanahan is reading my mind. No zone read. Lots of shotgun. And it was his best night yet despite little help from some of the cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 With you... except for Young... he had over 100 carries both his Jr and Sr year at BYU. He learned to be a pocket passer in SF after running for his life with the Bucs... And, really, that was my point....Young became a superstar when he stopped playing running back and started playing like a real NFL quarterback.....He didn't have to rely on his legs or running, because he could beat you with his arm and brain..... and, when the chips were down and most QB's were forced to dump the play, THEN he would/could suddenly rip off a 30 yard run to save the day....a nice weapon, if used properly.....but it doesn't work when it's the primary game plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted August 24, 2014 Report Share Posted August 24, 2014 You're going a bit far saying Newton is great from the pocket. Beyond his rookie year and Smitty bailing out some of his questionable throws - the NFL adjusted and he has regressed since. There is nothing special about kaep's passing ability. He's actually well below average. He just happens to play with a loaded Oline. San Fransisco and Seattle ranked 29th and 30th in passing. A dominant ground game and defense goes a long way. RG3 is still a work in progress. But he's glass and his best asset is still his legs. If you think you can run the fun and gun with JM in today's NFL then I'd encourage you to lay off the peyote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot 2h #browns said Manziel will finish the first half Thurs night vs bears, maybe play into 3rd. Hoyer will start and prob play less than quarter It's no secret that I'm far from a Johhny Fanboy, but man, I sure hope he continues to improve while looking more comfortable with each snap. I thought he looked better Saturday than he did the game before, and if he makes similar gains this week I will be pretty happy. Don't even get me started about Hoyer. I'll just say there's no where to go but up. (hopefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yes, Manziel looked better. He was also given several high percentage throws and didn't quite bail after his first read. I"m a bit shocked myself on the TD scramble because the Rams sent zero pressure. However his internal clock is going to take some time. He rushes himself when there isn't heat and doesn't sense is when its coming. As evidenced from the Sam sack. He's got a long way to go in feeling the pocket which, aside from accuracy might be the most important trait in a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyFromSandusky Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yes, Manziel looked better. He was also given several high percentage throws and didn't quite bail after his first read. I"m a bit shocked myself on the TD scramble because the Rams sent zero pressure. However his internal clock is going to take some time. He rushes himself when there isn't heat and doesn't sense is when its coming. As evidenced from the Sam sack. He's got a long way to go in feeling the pocket which, aside from accuracy might be the most important trait in a QB. Sam wasn't even blocked on that play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted August 25, 2014 Report Share Posted August 25, 2014 He did not bow to media and fan pressure. ... yet as far as the media is concerned it is as if nothing has changed... Loved the "Manziel vs. Sam" promo prior to Saturday nite's game... And, really, that was my point....Young became a superstar when he stopped playing running back and started playing like a real NFL quarterback.....He didn't have to rely on his legs or running, because he could beat you with his arm and brain..... Got cha... it was the grouping that threw me... Young made an appearance on NFL Live last week and had some advice for JM based upon his experience in making that transition. It was more or less to loop this mantra in his mind: "Stay in the pocket... Stay in the pocket... Stay in the pocket..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Mellon Posted August 26, 2014 Report Share Posted August 26, 2014 he sure earned it....not....hoyer sucks.....now the browns get to lose their first three games...... so you reward the hometown sweetheart who played like shit.....oh yeah, that makes sense.... I would like to see Johnny Scramble play in some packages on opening day, especially against the PIT defense which is a work-in-progress. I see that game a a "pick-em" anyways, so CLE would clearly benefit from forcing PIT to have to deal with two different QB's. CLE was unfortuanate to have not played PIT early last season when PIT was terrible, now CLE has a chance coz PIT does not have their act together yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_brown Posted August 26, 2014 Report Share Posted August 26, 2014 on the bright side, after the disaster against the rams, hoyer and the offense can only improve against the bears....so i expect a better showing.....if not, damn, the browns are in trouble..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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