Pull the trigger on Kevin White!

[Flugel]

Flugel, you are going to get on Ghoolie's shit list, talking about taking O linemen in the first round.

How you gonna handle that?

LOL! I don't know Gipper.

[Flugel]

I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.

 

tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.

 

 

Thanks Naberius!

 

While Steinbach and Thomas were our blue collar heroes (as well as Hank Fraley who made all the line calls and pulled from his Center position) - QB Derek Anderson threw 29 TD passes with 20 of those going to the WR position. That's what size in the red zone can do for a QB that isn't consistently accurate. In addition to the TD volume, Edwards and Winslow had 56 first downs apiece while Joe Jurevicius added another 34. In comparison, our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014.

 

Jurevicius didn't play in 2008, Derek Anderson turned into the football version of Ricky Ankiel on the mound even though we still had Steinbach and Thomas fighting like hell to help us win 4 games. In 2009 & 2010, we still had Steinbach and Thomas fighting to help deliver 5 wins in each of those seasons. In essence, it took us 3 years to win 14 games after winning 10 games in 2007.

 

Remember what Minnesota did with height in the red zone when they had Jake Reed, Cris Carter and Randy Moss? Randall Cunningham had the best passer ratings of his career on a team that went 15-1.

[Unsympathetic]

Browns cannot solve anything without significant improvements to the DL and OL.

 

WR are a shiny hood ornament.

[tiamat63]

 

I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas.

 

I believe I clarified my full thoughts on that with the 'complimentary ecosystem that is offense' comment. With that said, the Oline is the greatest reason our passing game improved in 07. Plus having a remotely capable QB under center didn't hurt. But without the improvements up front, the running game doesn't become the compliment to the pass first team we had and pass protection also suffers as a result.

 

 

If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius.

 

That literally makes zero sense. All we needed to do was run left? What does that have to do with anything? As much as I love JT, he isn't the dominant run blocking LT, never has been. You put Anthony Munoz over there and maybe we've got a slightly different story. Plus the incredibly sharp decline of Jamal Lewis and defenses catching onto the one-read wonderkin that was Derek Anderson had the largest effects on the teams regression. That's ignoring the loss of JJ, having a TE playing bone and bone and Braylon coming back to earth much like he was at *ichigan. Oh, coupled with again... a defense void of playmakers.

 

You sound as if all we had to do was run the ball a couple times to our strongest lineman and defenses would part like the red sea. Football is a bit more complex, I fear.

 

 

2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)

2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)

2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)

2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)

2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)

2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.

 

I'd like to point out, you counter my argument by saying it was Braylon, JJ and Souldja boy that were the driving force behind the 2007 seasons success. We still had the same group of playmakers at WR in 2008 (save for JJ) and yielded bad results. You've yet to address this fact. Which leads more credibility to the offensive success starting up front then moving in to out.

 

Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level.

 

I wont disagree, WR play dropped like a stone. Which is sad considering Braylon and Kellen were but ghosts on their last ride in Cleveland.

 

On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012.

 

That would be on the QB, our Oline and the opposing Dline getting their hands up. Has very little to do with our receivers.

 

These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.

 

We've remained stuck on pause because the offense from top to bottom was a functioning mess. The oline for the the longest time may have had JT and Mack, but we're the same team that started O'Neil Cousins as RT. Lets not discount the fact there are 3 other important positions on the Oline to be manned. Our QB situation has been below average at best for quite a while. Another component as to why you see an unfavorable box count. You could have Randy Moss, Cris Carter and Jerry Rice out there... if you have Blaine Gabbert throwing them the ball, it doesn't matter.

 

Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.

 

I think JT gives less than a shit who we're throwing to so long as that man makes his plays and the offense hums. I bet Joe was a pretty happy guy seeing the Oline maul people, the run game be a top 5 unit until Mack went down. This is a run first team. You could draft White, Cooper and Maxx... still going to be a run first team with our QB situation. You tossing out how many TD's our WR's caught means little when that was in fact the idea the whole time. Run the ball, dominate TOP, turnover margin and have a high YPA count on passing plays. Force teams to account for our badass ground and pound giving our receivers a chance to win 1 on 1 matchups in a league that favors protecting receivers. Also, lets not pretend that this FA crop of QB's would make this offense sterling with a couple of decent receivers. That's a pipe dream.

 

In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.

 

Let me also clarify my draft stance. Unless there is zero other option, including trade downs, I don't want ANY oline in the first round. Mid round to late round, yes. I've already highlighted a few people with potential like Ali Marpet, Max Garcia, Aundrey Walker and BJ Finney. Tour has done far more scouting on the Oline and I'm certain could provide more names that would help this team with quality depth.

 

I've watched Williams play and I like his game. He's a vertical threat TE. He isn't the lateral passing threat that Cameron was, he isn't overly quick in space for a guy his size and really isn't a great inline blocker. Jordan is more athletic, but I still like Maxx. 1st round like? No... I don't think you'll see that type of impact you're looking for. Rookie TE's RARELY have that impact on a team. In fact, I'll go as far as saying history is not on the side of a rookie TE. They have far less impact than WR's whom they themselves, usually don't improve a teams win total.

 

As for Armstead. I'll pass. Kid is no 1st round 5tech talent, I've watched about half dozen games worth of defensive snaps yesterday to know that one.

 

 

edit: Whilst typing I wondered just how big an impact most rookie TE's have. Did a little digging - only THREE rookie TE's have logged 500+ yards receiving in the last 13 years.

 

Jeremy Shockey

Gronk

Hernandez

 

Of those 3, 2 play with an all timer at QB in what was at that point, one of the most pass happy offenses in the league.

 

double edit: Final thoughts. We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions

that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.

 

[Unsympathetic]

Round 2 is a great place to grab a WR with 1st-round talent because WR is stacked this year.

 

Not so much for impact OL and DL.. we need to get both of those in the 1st this year.

[Tour2ma]

These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.

 

My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early.

First, SS's are often responsible for TEs...

 

Second... In defense of Hoyer, I actually did stats on this "8-in-the-box" claim last season. We faced 8 or more in the box less than 20% of the time and were successful (gaining 4 or more yards) against that look over 50% of the time. And the work was done after Mack went down.

 

Yet somehow despite disagreeing with your arguments, we've reached the same conclusion... O-line need is not high. The only reason to take an OT high is if we see Thomas' long-term replacement in this class... and I am not sure I do.

 

As for Armstead. I'll pass. Kid is no 1st round 5tech talent, I've watched about half dozen games worth of defensive snaps yesterday to know that one.

 

Let me also clarify my draft stance. Unless there is zero other option, including trade downs, I don't want ANY oline in the first round. Mid round to late round, yes. I've already highlighted a few people with potential like Ali Marpet, Max Garcia, Aundrey Walker and BJ Finney. Tour has done far more scouting on the Oline and I'm certain could provide more names that would help this team with quality depth.

Agree... not seeing Armstead playing hard-nosed, run D. The college DE I like that fits our scheme at DE is Stanford's Anderson and he'll come much cheaper. But it's more likely that a quick DT is going to slide outside for us, e.g., Xavier Cooper. Bennett is also a possibility.

 

As for O-line... right now I really like two...

 

One is Marpet. Not supposed to love a prospect, but the kid blew me away at the combine. He is the best OG I've seen so far in this draft and is made for the ZBS. I fully expect him to go Day 2.

 

Another Day Two guy, albeit earlier, is Ty Sambrailo. I watched his game tape and saw Bito the 2nd. I think he adds OT depth, but will find a home in the interior.

[Flugel]

We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.

 

 

 

Tia, not for nothing but go back to the page I entered this thread. My first post was saying I think we can get Perriman in round 2. Guess who my biggest critic was? You, saying round 2 was a huge reach for the guy you deemed slated for round 4. Therefore, I gave you 2 cut and pastes of 2 different draft experts saying his stock could be up as high as round 1. That could have been a nice place to tell me you agreed with my intrigue for Perriman in round 2 rather than taking us on the huge detour.

 

And now you're telling me Perriman is one of the 2 WRs you really wanted? Think of how much time we could have saved with a little "Good point Flugel - I really like that kid right after round 1 too!"

 

As for your criticism of DE Arik Armstead, his reviews are mixed. Some people really like him - others feel like you do. He appears in the first round of some mock drafts and in upper mid rounds of others. I'm open to other dlineman. Shelton is growing on me while I read Phillips takes plays off and had back surgery in 2013. Your guy Coates has mixed reviews too. I'd start to be open to him in round 3 or 4 if we haven't drafted any WRs yet.

 

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

If Kevin White ever gets shot, this will be a poorly named thread.

[Naberius_Cerbera]

The condition of this team won't be 'fixed' in one offseason. It's going to take 2 offseason cycles to get the Browns into perennial playoff contenders like the top 6-8 franchises in football.

 

 

Detailed is my plan to facilitate that reality:

 

Glaring holes at QB and WR1 is all the rage among fans to get answered this offseason. But solid O-line play is of paramount importance to evaluate a QB... so sieves at RG & RT won't do in 2015... they are MUST upgrades THIS offseason. And, truly, the only way to perennial playoffs is to build a stout & intelligently aggressive defense... and the quickest way there starts at the point of attack. Mission: be on the lookout for the coming generation of a Wilfork or Ngata. Next needed: a ROLB that gets on the QB in a hurry. There's a lot of these types to crap-shoot on, but we must be wiser than to believe we're crap-shooting. That's not the name of our game. Coaching, patience, and simplification in rookie season goes a long way for a prospect. Gaining confidence is important indicator #1 in our system.

 

Our answer at QB is not out there to be had in 2015. Unknown qualities exist in Manziel and Connor Shaw, and we're going to find out in 2015 if they can be of service to our long-term mission. I like the chance that one surprises us just a bit in Flip's offense... perhaps enough to merit a roster spot in 2016, at least. Our plan is to draft the long-term answer at QB in 2016 when just from our corner of the country MSU's Connor Cook, PSU's Christian Hackenberg, and Ohio State's Cardale Jones should be top picks. I like Hackenberg most at this point, but Cardale is intriguing, to be sure.

 

Truth is, to judge an NFL QB, short and intermediate routes (their bread 'n' butter) are what is necessary to fairly assess. Our undersized WR with sticky hands are actually quite effective running those routes. We can trust what we see from the QB position based on our current WRs, provided we upgrade the right side of the O-line. I'm determined we are not going to reach in our pertinent picks (to find starters; the first 3) for a WR in this draft. If White or Cooper are there at #12, they'll have our full consideration; I'm not so high on Parker. Jaelin Strong or Devin Smith would have our consideration at #43, but I feel the real smart value there is filling RG with Ereck Flowers, Cam Erving, or Tre Jackson. QB wouldn't even begin to come into consideration until Round 3, if Hundley makes it there. Again, I'm not too high on our options there; if Jim Mora Jr didn't get Hundley to raise his game in college, far be it from us to believe it will 'click' for him in the monster that is the N.F.L. This isn't "throw a lot of picks at a problem".... it's an intelligent process we take from a blueprint of success from past-decade achiever franchises. Our QB Answer is entering the 2016 Draft; we must face it.

 

What we need this offseason: NT, RT, RG, DE, WR

What we need in 2016: QB, OLB, WR, DE

 

Address 2-3 in 2015 FA: NT, RG, DE, WR, TE

 

My board for #12: Shelton/NT, White/WR, Beasley/OLB, Cooper/WR, Trade Down, Parker/WR, Goldman/DL

 

My board for #19: Brown/NT, Thompson/OLB, Clemmings/RT, Williams/TE, Flowers/RT

 

My board for #43: Erving/RG, Strong/WR, Devin Smith/WR, Jackson/RG, Odighizuwa/DE, Kendricks/LB

 

 

Vic Beasley has the quality make-up of a future leader on D... think Von Miller-esque...

and Shaq Thompson is a star you find a spot for. He just makes plays... gets to the QB & ball carrier and is world-class at stripping the ball. Turnover machine. Oh, and put him in the backfield in the red zone to finish any job. He is HoneyBadger 5.0 ... I'll take him at 19 for sure.

 

Devin Smith is an ode to 2016 and the big arm QB we'll draft to consistently find him deep behind the safety, turned backward to face the QB like he does. Maybe Cardale, maybe PSU's Christian Hackenberg... we can dream right now!

[miktoxic]

If Kevin White ever gets shot, this will be a poorly named thread.

 

thank god someone has my sense of humor!

[miktoxic]

Browns cannot solve anything without significant improvements to the DL and OL.

 

WR are a shiny hood ornament.

yes. ^this 100x yes.

 

Round 2 is a great place to grab a WR with 1st-round talent because WR is stacked this year.

 

Not so much for impact OL and DL.. we need to get both of those in the 1st this year.

 

yes!! this 1kx yes.

[Opal312]

No trading up! If Kevin White is already taken there are other wide receivers. Devon Smith, Jaelon Strong, Amari Cooper. Davante Parker. At 12 they could also get Danny Shelton.

The Browns must never trade up again. They are not capable of judging talent and should take the best player available to fill their needs at 12, 19, and so on. We've seen what happens when they get cute. I.E.

Last year taking NO receivers. How is it that Oakland got Khalil Mack AND a quarterback. And Minnesota got a quarterback and Clinton-Dix. We got a cry-baby cornerback and Johnny Rehab.

[miktoxic]

i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.

 

hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.

 

if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.

 

but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.

 

i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.

[BitchTits]

i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.

 

hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.

 

if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.

 

but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.

 

i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.

Out of curiosity, when should we question our front office picks? And how should we question them? I mean someone points out whom we might have chosen, but to you that is pointless. How else do you want to judge how our front office is doing? Is it the same if I say how the (insert good team here) has drafted good year in, and year out? I mean that is how we determine if a front office is doing good right? Is it not a fair way to decide if they are doing bad? I mean shouldn't we actually compare who we took, to whom we should have took? Isn't that the whole point of scouting? To know who is going to be good? Isn't that how the "good teams" draft? They don't miss the "good" players like we do? I mean yes, we can look at the players picked, and judge them, but just because they fail here, doesn't mean they would fail elsewhere right? I mean Winston here likely fails, but Winston say in Green Bay could flourish, or in Chicago, or a place where they have a solid run game, and good receivers. The team has as much to do with why players fail, as the players themselves.

 

Who exactly were the gems we drafted last year? I would give you Bitonio, but who else? You also say Farmer's crew, but you do realize he was our director of pro personel in 2013 right? He was undoubtedly working on the 2014 draft in 2013 don't ya think? So he was pretty up on last years draft right? So his picks were his, and his crews. It's not like we cleaned house when we fired Lombardi, it was just Lombardi and 1 other I believe so most of the staff was intact from 2013. I would say they were ready and prepared to draft, wouldn't you?

 

My guess is you will just respond poorly, and not want to explain what it is you look for in a front office to determine if they are doing there job, and what "gems" you believe we landed in the draft last year. But I guess we shall see. Remember you say anyone who comes here to talk about woulda, coulda , shoulda is infantile and lame, but so is anyone who has to resort to insults, and name calling. Lets see which side of the coin you land on.

[miktoxic]

Out of curiosity, when should we question our front office picks? And how should we question them? I mean someone points out whom we might have chosen, but to you that is pointless. How else do you want to judge how our front office is doing? Is it the same if I say how the (insert good team here) has drafted good year in, and year out? I mean that is how we determine if a front office is doing good right? Is it not a fair way to decide if they are doing bad? I mean shouldn't we actually compare who we took, to whom we should have took? Isn't that the whole point of scouting? To know who is going to be good? Isn't that how the "good teams" draft? They don't miss the "good" players like we do? I mean yes, we can look at the players picked, and judge them, but just because they fail here, doesn't mean they would fail elsewhere right? I mean Winston here likely fails, but Winston say in Green Bay could flourish, or in Chicago, or a place where they have a solid run game, and good receivers. The team has as much to do with why players fail, as the players themselves.

 

Who exactly were the gems we drafted last year? I would give you Bitonio, but who else? You also say Farmer's crew, but you do realize he was our director of pro personel in 2013 right? He was undoubtedly working on the 2014 draft in 2013 don't ya think? So he was pretty up on last years draft right? So his picks were his, and his crews. It's not like we cleaned house when we fired Lombardi, it was just Lombardi and 1 other I believe so most of the staff was intact from 2013. I would say they were ready and prepared to draft, wouldn't you?

 

My guess is you will just respond poorly, and not want to explain what it is you look for in a front office to determine if they are doing there job, and what "gems" you believe we landed in the draft last year. But I guess we shall see. Remember you say anyone who comes here to talk about woulda, coulda , shoulda is infantile and lame, but so is anyone who has to resort to insults, and name calling. Lets see which side of the coin you land on.

[miktoxic]

I get it. I'm Not trying to say that a fan doesn't have the right to speak out, but when that said fan does it repeatedly and that's all they have to offer.....that is lame.

 

Believe me, most of us golden oldies on here have seen the hits and misses from past and present regimes longer than you've been taking breath so show some respect. Sure we missed out on this guy or that guy and instead drafted bums at times, but to just non-stop whine and complain (not saying you) is non-productive and at some point quite boring.

[tiamat63]

 

We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.

 

 

 

Tia, not for nothing but go back to the page I entered this thread. My first post was saying I think we can get Perriman in round 2. Guess who my biggest critic was? You, saying round 2 was a huge reach for the guy you deemed slated for round 4. Therefore, I gave you 2 cut and pastes of 2 different draft experts saying his stock could be up as high as round 1. That could have been a nice place to tell me you agreed with my intrigue for Perriman in round 2 rather than taking us on the huge detour.

 

And now you're telling me Perriman is one of the 2 WRs you really wanted? Think of how much time we could have saved with a little "Good point Flugel - I really like that kid right after round 1 too!"

 

As for your criticism of DE Arik Armstead, his reviews are mixed. Some people really like him - others feel like you do. He appears in the first round of some mock drafts and in upper mid rounds of others. I'm open to other dlineman. Shelton is growing on me while I read Phillips takes plays off and had back surgery in 2013. Your guy Coates has mixed reviews too. I'd start to be open to him in round 3 or 4 if we haven't drafted any WRs yet.

 

 

 

 

I will apologize for the confusion. I post quite a bit while at work, some things make sense in my mind... they don't necessary translate the way I wish on the forum.

 

Re: The receivers I listed. I put them in order I'd like started from the 2nd and moving into the mid rounds. I'd take Devin and probably Coates 2nd round. Perriman 3rd and Lockett 4th.

As it stands, Perriman is a reach being rated as a 4th round fringe 3rd receiver. Having two 'experts' (for the life of me I can't seem to find your post and whom they were) isn't really a groundswell of support for changing his standing. Although, ultimately its up to NFL front offices that will determine is draft value. I would like Perrimen, but not before the 3rd.

 

... and as for Armstead. I watched his tape against Texas last year and liked some of the things I saw. Then I watched progressively more and more from that point forward as I'm sure most scouts have. I believe most of them got hung up against Texas because his body of work afterwards up until a few shining moments in the Rose Bowl was less than impressive. Much like Perriman, it was be determined by whom takes him where. I Just hope and pray it isn't the Brownies in the 1st.

[Flugel]

First, SS's are often responsible for TEs...

 

In traditional defenses - yes; zone blitz defenses - not so much. There's also offensive strategies/adjustments like Sean Sean Payton and his OC made that isolated TE Jimmy Graham on corners to exploit the size advantage by moving him out wider. Sometimes that means 2 TEs are on the field - sometimes it just means they only lined their TE out wider. Joe Haden is as good as it gets at corner - just ask AJ Green. In fact, his success against a guy that size made our staff confident we Joe was up to the same challenge with Graham. However, he learned it's much easier to press a WR build than a TE physique and we struggled with that adjustment New Orleans.

 

Zone blitz defenses roll coverages especially when they go man-down at the back end. And if you catch them on the side opposite of where they're rolling to like Shanny did - Cameron had a 42 yard reception that didn't go for a TD when had 3 TEs on the field. However, the replay showed DE #99 Brett Kiesel knocked him out of bounds inside their 10 yard line as the only guy with any shot at doing so. LeBeau not only disguises his blitzes - he also disguises which way he's going to roll his coverages when he's blitzing. Sometimes it's toward strength - sometimes it's toward wide side of the field. On this particular play, Shanny backdoored it masterfully.

 

Here's a replay of the TD I spoke of that earlier in the thread (that you are responding to above). Anyway, notice we're attacking the zone being manned by cornerback Cortez Allen #28 while Polly was camping out underneath hoping to clobber one of our little guys over the middle. The beauty of that meant there was no such thing as Safety help on this play and we punctuated it with end zone. This one hookup over the top, sure helped our running game face lesser numbers in the box later. If memory serves me right, we had negative yardage rushing after the first quarter ended in a game we would end up scoring 31 points.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Jordan-Cameron-51-Yard-Touchdown-Catch/1369836b-720e-40ee-b8db-a2dbbb09d571

[Flugel]

I get it. I'm Not trying to say that a fan doesn't have the right to speak out, but when that said fan does it repeatedly and that's all they have to offer.....that is lame.

 

Believe me, most of us golden oldies on here have seen the hits and misses from past and present regimes longer than you've been taking breath so show some respect. Sure we missed out on this guy or that guy and instead drafted bums at times, but to just non-stop whine and complain (not saying you) is non-productive and at some point quite boring.

 

Nice job with that! We all have our moments good and bad. This is going to be long but I hope it's worth the read.

 

When we used to be GOOD or frequent playoffs - we set it up by nailing round 1 and acing the late rounds. For example, in 1978 - we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in round 1. They started frequenting playoffs as early as Brian Sipe's MVP season in 1980 through Bernie Kosar's glory years. Fun stuff! Joe DeLamalleure once came to a banquet I was at when we had Chip Banks and a slew of other impressive LBers. When asked who was the best guy he faced here in practice. He didn't hesitate. He said Clay Matthews is the toughest son of bitch I've not only faced here but he rates right up there with the toughest in my career. He added, not only that but he's talented enough to play inside or outside, which we saw when injuries made it necessary on occasion. It's a shame somebody like Jerome Bettis can make the Hall of Fame averaging under 4.0 yards a carry; but Clay Matthews can play extremely well for the length of time he did and be deemed not good enough. If anyone remembers our playoff W over Buffalo, Clay Matthews' interception of Jim Kelly at the goal line sealed the deal. That guy was successful in every defense. We may not have made the Superbowl; but our first round of 1978 played in more playoff games than any other first round in my lifetime.

 

We ALSO used to nail late round picks like adding guys like Cody Riesen as late as round 6 or 7 for a performance value of 2 Pro Bowls. Paul Farren was drafted really late (which would be undrafted FA territory today) and he could play OT, OG or Center. He worked his way into a starting lineup when he did well filling in for injury at first. Ernest Byner and Brian Sipe were 10th round and 13th round respectively, which also means they would have been undrafted FAs in a 7 round draft. On our 90s playoff team that beat NE in the post season, we had 2 undrafted OTs (Tony Jones and Orlando Brown) with a first round Center playing extremely well. We lined up against playoff caliber front 7s like Philly and Dallas and ran it right down their esophagus with nothing fancy or tricky.

 

Bridging all that to the here and now, our front office was planning on building a balanced attack around Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Josh Gordon, Jordan Cameron and others. Farmer did a nice job in year 1 for the most part. While people debate round 1 - Farmer added another first round pick for 2015 in it. Meanwhile, Bitonio is the first legitimate OG we've had here since Steinbach went under the knife. The difference between 2013 and 2014 - is there was much confidence we could run inside of our tackles with consistency rather than feeling the only place we could run was off tackle with whatever former Houston Texan practice squad RB was next. Therefore, Crow (undrafted) and West turned out to be pretty nice additions too. We asked a lot of Taylor Gabriel as an undrafted wide eyed rookie and he played well enough to be an important situational guy for our roster. I wish Phil Taylor had his inner chest.

 

The only thing that bothered me a little about last year is I learned our front office had knowledge Josh failed another drug test weeks before the draft even though it wasn't announced nationally until day 2 or day 3 of the draft. That should have slammed dunked there was going to be more failures ahead; and 2014 was the perfect place to add scoring weapons like: Sammy Watkins, Kelvin Benjamin, Odell Beckham Jr, Mike Evans (a former teammate of Manziel that already had an established chemistry), .BUT it was Farmer's rookie year in his new capacity; and there was enough success and improvement in our bottom line to think we're going in the right direction. It's not like he can plan or schedule Cameron will begin to have head trauma concerns in the preseason any more than it was possible to predict such a thing with Evan Moore in the past.

 

We've also landed a young veteran RT Michael Bowie - who is pretty well regarded for his run blocking ability to compete with Mitchell Schwartz. As it stands, our oline has 2 first round pick investments and 2 second round investments with Greco and Bowie giving us a pretty competitive top 6. We already know a healthy Alex Mack can give us a reliable running game and make our QB confident he can step into his throws on shorter drop backs. If we add a scoring threat or 2 to our perimeter, I like our chances at a well balanced attack.

 

My coach always used to say - "we're only as good as our last guy." And very recently I was told Tom Coughlin said something along the line of "the bottom of your active roster is just as important as the top of your active roster in a world where injuries/suspensions do not discriminate who they blindside." Farmer did a good job with that. That's how a team coming off 4-12 was able to stick to the philosophy of "play like a Brown" all the way up to 7-4 (as well as getting us halftime leads vrs Baltimore, Buffalo, and Indy). We didn't win 7 games by accident; but the effort was good enough to press 3 other opponents to the closing seconds (Pitt I, Balt I, and Indy). All this stuff about a weak schedule seems to forget the reality we had 3 playoff teams in our own division we had to play twice. We rathoused 2 of them by 21 points apiece. We also had 2nd half leads or a tie score in 3 games we lost (2 as time expired). Carolina was a first place team with a tough defense in their 2nd straight playoff appearance. Indy made the AFC Championship Game. Our competitive value not only improved to 7 wins - you better believe there were playoff teams like Indy, like Pittsburgh, like Indy feeling thrilled they had all 60 minutes. The national media can give us their doom and gloom predictions all they want. We have the right coach and the bottom part of roster is much improved with a front office striving to improve as many parts as it can. I don't really have to get nearly as creative to get my game face on for 2015 like I've had to in recent years.

[Mudfly]

We got a cry-baby.....

..a bunch of em actually......

[Flugel]

The condition of this team won't be 'fixed' in one offseason. It's going to take 2 offseason cycles to get the Browns into perennial playoff contenders like the top 6-8 franchises in football.

 

 

Detailed is my plan to facilitate that reality:

 

Glaring holes at QB and WR1 is all the rage among fans to get answered this offseason. But solid O-line play is of paramount importance to evaluate a QB... so sieves at RG & RT won't do in 2015... they are MUST upgrades THIS offseason. And, truly, the only way to perennial playoffs is to build a stout & intelligently aggressive defense... and the quickest way there starts at the point of attack. Mission: be on the lookout for the coming generation of a Wilfork or Ngata. Next needed: a ROLB that gets on the QB in a hurry. There's a lot of these types to crap-shoot on, but we must be wiser than to believe we're crap-shooting. That's not the name of our game. Coaching, patience, and simplification in rookie season goes a long way for a prospect. Gaining confidence is important indicator #1 in our system.

 

Our answer at QB is not out there to be had in 2015. Unknown qualities exist in Manziel and Connor Shaw, and we're going to find out in 2015 if they can be of service to our long-term mission. I like the chance that one surprises us just a bit in Flip's offense... perhaps enough to merit a roster spot in 2016, at least. Our plan is to draft the long-term answer at QB in 2016 when just from our corner of the country MSU's Connor Cook, PSU's Christian Hackenberg, and Ohio State's Cardale Jones should be top picks. I like Hackenberg most at this point, but Cardale is intriguing, to be sure.

 

Truth is, to judge an NFL QB, short and intermediate routes (their bread 'n' butter) are what is necessary to fairly assess. Our undersized WR with sticky hands are actually quite effective running those routes. We can trust what we see from the QB position based on our current WRs, provided we upgrade the right side of the O-line. I'm determined we are not going to reach in our pertinent picks (to find starters; the first 3) for a WR in this draft. If White or Cooper are there at #12, they'll have our full consideration; I'm not so high on Parker. Jaelin Strong or Devin Smith would have our consideration at #43, but I feel the real smart value there is filling RG with Ereck Flowers, Cam Erving, or Tre Jackson. QB wouldn't even begin to come into consideration until Round 3, if Hundley makes it there. Again, I'm not too high on our options there; if Jim Mora Jr didn't get Hundley to raise his game in college, far be it from us to believe it will 'click' for him in the monster that is the N.F.L. This isn't "throw a lot of picks at a problem".... it's an intelligent process we take from a blueprint of success from past-decade achiever franchises. Our QB Answer is entering the 2016 Draft; we must face it.

 

What we need this offseason: NT, RT, RG, DE, WR

What we need in 2016: QB, OLB, WR, DE

 

Address 2-3 in 2015 FA: NT, RG, DE, WR, TE

 

My board for #12: Shelton/NT, White/WR, Beasley/OLB, Cooper/WR, Trade Down, Parker/WR, Goldman/DL

 

My board for #19: Brown/NT, Thompson/OLB, Clemmings/RT, Williams/TE, Flowers/RT

 

My board for #43: Erving/RG, Strong/WR, Devin Smith/WR, Jackson/RG, Odighizuwa/DE, Kendricks/LB

 

 

Vic Beasley has the quality make-up of a future leader on D... think Von Miller-esque...

and Shaq Thompson is a star you find a spot for. He just makes plays... gets to the QB & ball carrier and is world-class at stripping the ball. Turnover machine. Oh, and put him in the backfield in the red zone to finish any job. He is HoneyBadger 5.0 ... I'll take him at 19 for sure.

 

Devin Smith is an ode to 2016 and the big arm QB we'll draft to consistently find him deep behind the safety, turned backward to face the QB like he does. Maybe Cardale, maybe PSU's Christian Hackenberg... we can dream right now!

 

Very insightful and nice job overall! You put a lot of guys I'd be happy with in there. Thanks man!

[Tour2ma]

The condition of this team won't be 'fixed' in one offseason. It's going to take 2 offseason cycles to get the Browns into perennial playoff contenders like the top 6-8 franchises in football.

 

 

Detailed is my plan to facilitate that reality:

 

Glaring holes at QB and WR1 is all the rage among fans to get answered this offseason. But solid O-line play is of paramount importance to evaluate a QB... so sieves at RG & RT won't do in 2015... they are MUST upgrades THIS offseason.

Stopped reading right here...

[Flugel]

 

I will apologize for the confusion. I post quite a bit while at work, some things make sense in my mind... they don't necessary translate the way I wish on the forum.

 

Re: The receivers I listed. I put them in order I'd like started from the 2nd and moving into the mid rounds. I'd take Devin and probably Coates 2nd round. Perriman 3rd and Lockett 4th.

As it stands, Perriman is a reach being rated as a 4th round fringe 3rd receiver. Having two 'experts' (for the life of me I can't seem to find your post and whom they were) isn't really a groundswell of support for changing his standing. Although, ultimately its up to NFL front offices that will determine is draft value. I would like Perrimen, but not before the 3rd.

 

... and as for Armstead. I watched his tape against Texas last year and liked some of the things I saw. Then I watched progressively more and more from that point forward as I'm sure most scouts have. I believe most of them got hung up against Texas because his body of work afterwards up until a few shining moments in the Rose Bowl was less than impressive. Much like Perriman, it was be determined by whom takes him where. I Just hope and pray it isn't the Brownies in the 1st.

 

I appreciate the clarification Tia.

 

It looks like we both want to draft a WR after round 1. To be honest, I think there's going to be some runs on defensive players that will make Perriman available AFTER round 1 despite what Mayock and Kiper have said about the potential to go up into round 1.

[Tour2ma]

In traditional defenses - yes; zone blitz defenses...

 

Here's a replay of the TD I spoke of that earlier in the thread...

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-center/videos/Jordan-Cameron-51-Yard-Touchdown-Catch/1369836b-720e-40ee-b8db-a2dbbb09d571

Awesome anecdotal reply... Trumps the shit out of my accumulated game data.

 

How often are zone blitzes run in a given game?

[tiamat63]

Stopped reading right here...

 

Yeah, I don't understand that theme with some. Greco traded out as a top 15 RG and Mitch was a top 10 RT in PBE. They need no replacement.

 

This oline only needs quality stand ins should (again, god forbid) an injury occur.

 

 

Awesome anecdotal reply... Trumps the shit out of my accumulated game data.

 

How often are zone blitzes run in a given game?

 

That would depend on the team.

 

Also, the SS's primary responsibility really depends on what the defense is asking of him. Its a rather sweeping generalization to say the SS has man up. Obviously strong has gap responsibilities against the run, but when you think TE now a days, you think passing game. With a vertical threat tight end you'll see bracket coverage in most any defense.

 

With a cover 6 team like Pittsburgh that likes the zone blitz, generally you'll see the linebacker squeeze the TE to the interior if he's inline and turn him over to the safety whom will carry him down the seam. If the TE is offset or in the slot, the effort is usually still the same. Obviously that's negated by something the Saints like to do with splitting Graham out wide, then its him on a DB, which... I really don't care if you're Deion, its a mismatch everytime.

[Mudfly]

Stopped reading right here...

I didn't even make it that far...

 

Sieves at RG/RT?.......based upon what data?

[Flugel]

Awesome anecdotal reply... Trumps the shit out of my accumulated game data.

 

How often are zone blitzes run in a given game?

 

People that grew up sweating in jock straps tend to prefer looking at film, formations on film and tendencies so they can play and/or coach better at the school district/college they're getting paid to do that for. People that grew up sniffing jock straps prefer to spend all their time making all their conclusions from statistics. Why do I get the feeling you were once a huge Jay Cutler fan? "Yeah, did you see that monstrous 4th quarter Cutler had when Denver was down 30 points so they only lost by 13? That kid's a keeper." Meanwhile film is showing why all that was possible like prevent defenses, backups and a willingness to give up underneath in exchange for clock.

 

Am I supposed to be impressed you can look at stats all day and make a conclusion like Hoyer was projecting way more than 8 TD passes to the WR Corps in 2014 if Mack didn't get hurt. Yeah, the problem with that light bulb moment from you is 3 TD passes came at the expense of the 2-14 Titans that were only on our schedule once. YOUR conclusion-based stats see that as projecting 45 TD passes over 16 games with Travis Benjamin projecting 32 TD receptions IF Alex Mack doesn't get hurt. Hoyer still had opportunities to make doable throws that he couldn't make. And get this - film actually showed us some flawed/lost mechanics from Hoyer that were correctable even without Alex Mack.

 

I figured when I saw you visited my profile, you had already completed a panic attack or 2. My dumb jock vibe must have triggered some unpleasant memories of you getting fanny snapped by wet towels from the football, basketball or baseball team. So apparently when you thought you were seeing newbies in this thread like me and Naberius - you thought it was the perfect time for you to unleash your revenge of the towel boy. That's a real trophy case moment any parent would be proud of.

 

If you're gonna get full of yourself and condascend to people you have ZERO clue about their football backgrounds with - you're gonna have to give me something better than 8 TD receptions from our WR Corps in 2014 is better than 20 TD receptions from our WR Corps in 2007. You might even want to follow the flow of discussion rather than jumping into the 3rd or 4th page so you get where somebody is coming from. Then again, you didn't care. Not your purpose...

 

I showed you film because it doesn't lie; and your reaction to it told me all it needed to. Most people that HAVE a life don't give a crap about how many times a zone blitz team blitzes. They care more about when our favorite team made them pay for doing so. You're the stat guy - do you remember what our rushing numbers reflected at the end of the first quarter looked like in that 2nd Pittsburgh Game? I only remember the replays slam dunking we gotta do something to stop them from outnumbering or 5-6 blockers. Having the ability to beat them over the top more than once with Cameron that day - MADE them adjust their crowd vrs our point of attack for better rushing results the final 3 quarters with and without Mack.

 

I don't give a crap that you didn't want to give me a chance; BUT you could have shown a lot more class to a fairly new guy like Naberius that only wants to talk football. He seems a lot more about sharing a common bond with Browns' fans than you. All I've seen outta you is a bunch of nervous Shakespeare with an emphasis on the Shakes. You know why a jittery Barney Fife type likes to flash his badge in front of witnesses? Because when/if all Hell breaks loose - the only person he's capable of shooting with his gun is himself. The sad thing is the person he's flashing this badge at already knows this. Put the gun down kid...

[Naberius_Cerbera]

Tour, tia, Mudfly....

 

To answer you, Flugel, some guys think they got the patent on intellectual enlightenment...

 

others just don't like to read very much... especially if it's intelligent matter/content (mudfly)

[miktoxic]

 

People that grew up sweating in jock straps tend to prefer looking at film, formations on film and tendencies so they can play and/or coach better at the school district/college they're getting paid to do that for. People that grew up sniffing jock straps prefer to spend all their time making all their conclusions from statistics. Why do I get the feeling you were once a huge Jay Cutler fan? "Yeah, did you see that monstrous 4th quarter Cutler had when Denver was down 30 points so they only lost by 13? That kid's a keeper." Meanwhile film is showing why all that was possible like prevent defenses, backups and a willingness to give up underneath in exchange for clock.

 

Am I supposed to be impressed you can look at stats all day and make a conclusion like Hoyer was projecting way more than 8 TD passes to the WR Corps in 2014 if Mack didn't get hurt. Yeah, the problem with that light bulb moment from you is 3 TD passes came at the expense of the 2-14 Titans that were only on our schedule once. YOUR conclusion-based stats see that as projecting 45 TD passes over 16 games with Travis Benjamin projecting 32 TD receptions IF Alex Mack doesn't get hurt. Hoyer still had opportunities to make doable throws that he couldn't make. And get this - film actually showed us some flawed/lost mechanics from Hoyer that were correctable even without Alex Mack.

 

I figured when I saw you visited my profile, you had already completed a panic attack or 2. My dumb jock vibe must have triggered some unpleasant memories of you getting fanny snapped by wet towels from the football, basketball or baseball team. So apparently when you thought you were seeing newbies in this thread like me and Naberius - you thought it was the perfect time for you to unleash your revenge of the towel boy. That's a real trophy case moment any parent would be proud of.

 

If you're gonna get full of yourself and condascend to people you have ZERO clue about their football backgrounds with - you're gonna have to give me something better than 8 TD receptions from our WR Corps in 2014 is better than 20 TD receptions from our WR Corps in 2007. You might even want to follow the flow of discussion rather than jumping into the 3rd or 4th page so you get where somebody is coming from. Then again, you didn't care. Not your purpose...

 

I showed you film because it doesn't lie; and your reaction to it told me all it needed to. Most people that HAVE a life don't give a crap about how many times a zone blitz team blitzes. They care more about when our favorite team made them pay for doing so. You're the stat guy - do you remember what our rushing numbers reflected at the end of the first quarter looked like in that 2nd Pittsburgh Game? I only remember the replays slam dunking we gotta do something to stop them from outnumbering or 5-6 blockers. Having the ability to beat them over the top more than once with Cameron that day - MADE them adjust their crowd vrs our point of attack for better rushing results the final 3 quarters with and without Mack.

 

I don't give a crap that you didn't want to give me a chance; BUT you could have shown a lot more class to a fairly new guy like Naberius that only wants to talk football. He seems a lot more about sharing a common bond with Browns' fans than you. All I've seen outta you is a bunch of nervous Shakespeare with an emphasis on the Shakes. You know why a jittery Barney Fife type likes to flash his badge in front of witnesses? Because when/if all Hell breaks loose - the only person he's capable of shooting with his gun is himself. The sad thing is the person he's flashing this badge at already knows this. Put the gun down kid...

 

i'll be your huckleberry.

 

i can shoot just fine.

[Naberius_Cerbera]

"Sieves"....

 

I thought that was a harsh word to use, but used it anyway because upgrading RG is necessary for perennial playoff contention.

 

I can agree with tiamat63 that quality stand-in talent is needed....in addition to RG. Cameron Erving would be an ideal pick.

 

Vic Beasley and Shaq Thompson are rising on my board.... I'd really like one of them, especially if we can sign a good FA DT. The Defense would start poppin' like a contender!