You can't defend this circus anymore.

[Tour2ma]

At This point I would be happy with 5 wins

At this point in that case our record would be 5-2... works for me.

[Flugel]

I specifically said he does not have a couple more job hops.

 

He was going to be fired in Miami. I don't care what their fans would tell me. That's a fact.

 

I also never denied LSU fans are pissed at him. But he did bring them a championship. He earned the right to do whatever he wants.

 

Back to the topic.

 

Parcells once said if I'm gonna be graded on how I cook the meal - you better let me buy the groceries. Who else besides Walter looks at a WR Corps that rarely ever scores TDs in the red zone and thinks - it's the damn coach not the GM.

 

Whether one wanted Manziel here or not - who thinks it was a fabulous idea to draft a QB that many of our scouts and coaches didn't want?

 

Who thinks Josh Gordon is REALLY going to be worth waiting for this time he screws up? "He's gonna" as it pertains to its tradition in Cleveland always means "he still hasn't." How many different colleges did he fool before our front office learned history repeats itself? Who saw a football soul in this guy?

 

These are first round draft picks in recent years:

Phil Taylor

Bark Mingo (let me guess - all he needed was to be taught how to tackle? Super, we can use him in coverage on passing downs)

Trent Richardson

Brandon Weeden

Cam Erving

Justin Gilbert

Johnny Manziel

Danny Shelton (first year he's been asked to run wind sprints between snaps so I'll wait this one out)

 

In a passing era we don't consider drafting WRs like Julio Jones, O'Dell Beckham, Allen Robinson, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, Keenan Allen especially when we can either wait until round 2 to draft Greg Little (so we can TEACH him how to catch a football) or sign a has-been FA like Dwayne Bowe that has no reason to care about suiting up. Anyone really think our only problem is the Head Coach?

 

Our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014:

Benjamin 3

Austin 2

Hawkins 2

Gabriel 1

 

Great reason for Farmer to be way too cool to try to help the QB position out in the red zone. COACHING is actually getting the ball to our best play makers (Barnidge & Benjamin) in the game plans; but teams can load up on them. We're stuck with 2 knee high slot receivers (trying to pawn one off as something different) that can't ever score TDs, break tackles or hurdle grass blades. Elusive?

 

Want to know what it's like playing gridiron chess in Cleveland? Challenge someone to a game of chess and let your opponent use all his attack pieces while you just use pawns. Let me know how smart you look at the end of that one. It's like being in the SEC and choosing to waste your scholarships on kids that should be playing Division III football while the competition is recruiting kids like Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, O'Dell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, AJ Green and Patrick's Peter's-son. Is this really that tough when I see Oakland drafting Khalil Mack and Derek Carr in 1 draft before drafting Amari Cooper and adding Michael Crabtree a year later. What do we do? We draft Justin Gilbert and a QB that creates another Armaggedon in the front office to the extent the coaching staff never wants to see what they have in him. That sucks for a lot more than 1 guy's future here. 1 coach hated it so much - he's now in an environment in Atlanta that will make him a Head Coaching Candidate with Julio Jones outside, Matt Ryan at QB and a RB capitalizing on all the Safety attention Julio steals as well as the zbs.

 

Since 1999, ownership in Cleveland hasn't quite figured out the difference between the illness killing this team and the inevitable symptoms of that. That's prolly why guys like AL Golden and Ken Whisenhunt are going to be the only ones interested in a Head Coaching vacancy here. We've watched countless Head Coaches get fired here since 1999; and yet it's never led to the upgrade worth keeping. What cracks me up is that guys like Walter White who HATE every single Head Coach the ownership selection criteria chooses - can't wait to get right back to the process they don't trust whatsoever. Make sense? It shouldn't...

[Flugel]

Pettine is not the problem.

Manziel is not the answer.

 

So, despite the "fire the coach and start my guy" having "NEVER" worked in the history of the NFL........ AND......despite the fact that the Browns have been the team most guilty of trying it; you want to try it one more time?

 

"I know it's a two headed coin, but I'm sick of heads, flip it one more time to see if it comes up tails"

 

I wish it was that easy but every time it's heads - we clean house and it's still 1999. No matter how many times one needs to re-watch Old Yellar - the ending never changes. Watching it 1 more time isn't the solution. Time for different strategy than firing a Head Coach just so we can choose between Ken Whisenhunt and Al Golden (most likely to be the only resumes interested in this situation). Time to correct the person in charge of personnel so whoever IS coaching stands a chance this time around.

[OldBrownsFan]

Pettine is not the problem.

Manziel is not the answer.

 

So, despite the "fire the coach and start my guy" having "NEVER" worked in the history of the NFL........ AND......despite the fact that the Browns have been the team most guilty of trying it; you want to try it one more time?

 

"I know it's a two headed coin, but I'm sick of heads, flip it one more time to see if it comes up tails"

 

I don't want to see firings but I am disappointed in the mental mistakes by this team. I disagree with those who say they quit on Pettine because I think Pettine does get them to play hard but do they play smart? Shooting themselves in the foot too many times is not playing smart football. Having only 10 men on the field when the Rams scored their TD is not excusable. Week after week Pettine talks about the mistakes and penalties but they don't get them cleaned up and that is troubling. The Browns always seem to miss the opportunity to get momentum in a game. They don't seize the opportunity like in the Denver game getting an interception at the 39 in OT and not scoring, or not scoring in the red zone and settling for field goals and if the offense does score and we get a momentum shift the defense lets down quickly.

 

I have seen spurts of a much better team than 2-5 but we just can't get complete games on offense and defense without the breakdowns, mistakes and penalties.

[The Gipper]

Pettine is not the problem.

Manziel is not the answer.

 

OK, so the Great and Mighty Wizard of Oz, What in your opinion is/are the problems......and what are the answers?

 

 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Pettine is not the problem.

Manziel is not the answer.

 

OK, so the Great and Mighty Wizard of Oz, What in your opinion is/are the problems......and what are the answers?

 

 

 

 

I'll take a crack at this one.

 

Problems:

 

We're a team with a brand new offensive coordinator, a stable of unproven WR's, a journeyman QB, an offensive line learning a new system, and a defensive coordinator who is implementing a confusing system.

 

Answers:

 

Shut the fuck up and wait. No team that turns it around in one season is built for sustained success. No team that drafts a QB every two years is built for sustained success. No team that fires their head coach every other season is built for sustained success. So shut the fuck up and wait.

 

There's such a thing as firing a coordinator and not firing a head coach. Ask Baltimore, ask San Francisco...they did it a bunch of times. The only project that needs scrapped at this point in time is O'Neil, he's proven to be over his head. Pettine needs to relieve O'Neil of his playcalling duties and take control of his defense. Flip can handle the offense just fine on his own.

[The Gipper]

 

I'll take a crack at this one.

 

Problems:

 

We're a team with a brand new offensive coordinator, a stable of unproven WR's, a journeyman QB, an offensive line learning a new system, and a defensive coordinator who is implementing a confusing system.

 

Answers:

 

Shut the fuck up and wait. No team that turns it around in one season is built for sustained success. No team that drafts a QB every two years is built for sustained success. No team that fires their head coach every other season is built for sustained success. So shut the fuck up and wait.

 

There's such a thing as firing a coordinator and not firing a head coach. Ask Baltimore, ask San Francisco...they did it a bunch of times. The only project that needs scrapped at this point in time is O'Neil, he's proven to be over his head. Pettine needs to relieve O'Neil of his playcalling duties and take control of his defense. Flip can handle the offense just find on his own.

All fair enough. What about Farmer?

[Canton Dawg]

 

I wish it was that easy but every time it's heads - we clean house and it's still 1999. No matter how many times one needs to re-watch Old Yellar - the ending never changes. Watching it 1 more time isn't the solution. Time for different strategy than firing a Head Coach just so we can choose between Ken Whisenhunt and Al Golden (most likely to be the only resumes interested in this situation). Time to correct the person in charge of personnel so whoever IS coaching stands a chance this time around.

Great Post!

 

While listening to Bull & Fox yesterday, Adam "The Bull" did some research over the players drafted from 2010-2013 in the AFCN.

 

The Ratbirds still have 33% of those players on their roster.

 

The Stoolers still have 43% of those players on their roster.

 

The Bungholes still have 49% of those players on their roster.

 

The Browns only 18% of those players still on the roster.

 

It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that Cleveland can't fucking draft good players.

 

It's not a knock on Farmer because the 2014-2015 weren't included, but my gut feeling is he can't draft worth a shit either.

 

Haslam really needs to get a personnel guy that CAN evaluate talent.

 

Until he does, it's going to be Groundhog day all over again.

[Tour2ma]

That Farmer seems to have "the touch" on Days 2 and 3 is perplexing. Could be he overcomplicates Day 1 by looking for the value no one else sees.

 

What cracks me up is that guys like Walter White who HATE every single Head Coach the ownership selection criteria chooses - can't wait to get right back to the process they don't trust whatsoever. Make sense? It shouldn't...

... and now it cracks me up. Great observation...

 

There's such a thing as firing a coordinator and not firing a head coach. Ask Baltimore, ask San Francisco...they did it a bunch of times. The only project that needs scrapped at this point in time is O'Neil, he's proven to be over his head. Pettine needs to relieve O'Neil of his playcalling duties and take control of his defense. Flip can handle the offense just find on his own.

Add Detroit to your list of Coordinator pruners...

 

I'd have thought Pet would have refocused on his D by now, but his presser comments indicate he's still focused on the O, e.g., being in the QB room "a lot".

 

So far in my Rams' game-tape sessions, Pet has been more chatty than usual on his headset during sideline shots. I might be wrong, but I'd think prolonged conversations would be around the group not on the field at the time... and that would mean with the D staff.

[hoorta]

Pettine isn't getting fired. Saban isn't coming to Cleveland. We're still going to win 8 games. O'Neil will be fired. Manziel will be our QB. We will take a DE/LB in the first round of next year's draft.

 

Calm the fuck down, it was our worst game of the year but it's not the end of the world. Manziel will start next week if McCown can't, he'll probably throw for about 275 yards and two touchdowns, may throw an interception but will more likely fumble at least once, and we'll put together another relatively strong offensive performance but ultimately lose because of our defense.

 

Then we'll fire O'Neil.

 

TCPO- this is what bothers me about Pettine- he was ragging on Manziel about "ball security"- but McCown gets a pass when he coughs up the ball twice in one game? Just a vague "we made plenty of mistakes". Well, no shit Sherlock. So what you going to do about it?

 

 

Back to the topic.

 

Parcells once said if I'm gonna be graded on how I cook the meal - you better let me buy the groceries. Who else besides Walter looks at a WR Corps that rarely ever scores TDs in the red zone and thinks - it's the damn coach not the GM.

 

Whether one wanted Manziel here or not - who thinks it was a fabulous idea to draft a QB that many of our scouts and coaches didn't want?

 

Who thinks Josh Gordon is REALLY going to be worth waiting for this time he screws up? "He's gonna" as it pertains to its tradition in Cleveland always means "he still hasn't." How many different colleges did he fool before our front office learned history repeats itself? Who saw a football soul in this guy?

 

These are first round draft picks in recent years:

Phil Taylor

Bark Mingo (let me guess - all he needed was to be taught how to tackle? Super, we can use him in coverage on passing downs)

Trent Richardson

Brandon Weeden

Cam Erving

Justin Gilbert

Johnny Manziel

Danny Shelton (first year he's been asked to run wind sprints between snaps so I'll wait this one out)

 

In a passing era we don't consider drafting WRs like Julio Jones, O'Dell Beckham, Allen Robinson, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, Keenan Allen especially when we can either wait until round 2 to draft Greg Little (so we can TEACH him how to catch a football) or sign a has-been FA like Dwayne Bowe that has no reason to care about suiting up. Anyone really think our only problem is the Head Coach?

 

Our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014:

Benjamin 3

Austin 2

Hawkins 2

Gabriel 1

 

Great reason for Farmer to be way too cool to try to help the QB position out in the red zone. COACHING is actually getting the ball to our best play makers (Barnidge & Benjamin) in the game plans; but teams can load up on them. We're stuck with 2 knee high slot receivers (trying to pawn one off as something different) that can't ever score TDs, break tackles or hurdle grass blades. Elusive?

 

Want to know what it's like playing gridiron chess in Cleveland? Challenge someone to a game of chess and let your opponent use all his attack pieces while you just use pawns. Let me know how smart you look at the end of that one. It's like being in the SEC and choosing to waste your scholarships on kids that should be playing Division III football while the competition is recruiting kids like Julio Jones, Amari Cooper, O'Dell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, AJ Green and Patrick's Peter's-son. Is this really that tough when I see Oakland drafting Khalil Mack and Derek Carr in 1 draft before drafting Amari Cooper and adding Michael Crabtree a year later. What do we do? We draft Justin Gilbert and a QB that creates another Armaggedon in the front office to the extent the coaching staff never wants to see what they have in him. That sucks for a lot more than 1 guy's future here. 1 coach hated it so much - he's now in an environment in Atlanta that will make him a Head Coaching Candidate with Julio Jones outside, Matt Ryan at QB and a RB capitalizing on all the Safety attention Julio steals as well as the zbs.

 

Since 1999, ownership in Cleveland hasn't quite figured out the difference between the illness killing this team and the inevitable symptoms of that. That's prolly why guys like AL Golden and Ken Whisenhunt are going to be the only ones interested in a Head Coaching vacancy here. We've watched countless Head Coaches get fired here since 1999; and yet it's never led to the upgrade worth keeping. What cracks me up is that guys like Walter White who HATE every single Head Coach the ownership selection criteria chooses - can't wait to get right back to the process they don't trust whatsoever. Make sense? It shouldn't...

 

Excellent, excellent analysis Tom. I still have hope that Josh Gordon has finally cleaned up his act- but I'm not counting on it. We need some big stud wrs that actually can take a pounding over the middle. Blowe is happy to be inactive and collect his big paychecks. Time after time in the Rams game I saw our smurfs run crossing routes over the middle- and get killed for trying.

[The Gipper]

Great Post!

 

While listening to Bull & Fox yesterday, Adam "The Bull" did some research over the players drafted from 2010-2013 in the AFCN.

 

The Ratbirds still have 33% of those players on their roster.

 

The Stoolers still have 43% of those players on their roster.

 

The Bungholes still have 49% of those players on their roster.

 

The Browns only 18% of those players still on the roster.

 

It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that Cleveland can't fucking draft good players.

 

It's not a knock on Farmer because the 2014-2015 weren't included, but my gut feeling is he can't draft worth a shit either.

 

Haslam really needs to get a personnel guy that CAN evaluate talent.

 

Until he does, it's going to be Groundhog day all over again.

[Tacosman]

 

I'll take a crack at this one.

 

Problems:

 

We're a team with a brand new offensive coordinator, a stable of unproven WR's, a journeyman QB, an offensive line learning a new system, and a defensive coordinator who is implementing a confusing system.

 

Answers:

 

Shut the fuck up and wait. No team that turns it around in one season is built for sustained success. No team that drafts a QB every two years is built for sustained success. No team that fires their head coach every other season is built for sustained success. So shut the fuck up and wait.

 

There's such a thing as firing a coordinator and not firing a head coach. Ask Baltimore, ask San Francisco...they did it a bunch of times. The only project that needs scrapped at this point in time is O'Neil, he's proven to be over his head. Pettine needs to relieve O'Neil of his playcalling duties and take control of his defense. Flip can handle the offense just fine on his own.

 

The problem with your "fire the coordinator, not the head coach" argument is that that is usually done with a head coach who has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD or is otherwise so highly thought of that more time and another chance is needed. We saw this with Baltimore and Harbaugh's offensive coordinator a few years ago for example. John Harbaugh had a proven record as a good head coach then. We also just saw it with detroit and a head coach who definately sucks(caldwell), and all indications are that he will be fired at the end of the year too. Jim Caldwell isnt going to get another season with detroit.

 

Mike Pettine doesn't have any such track record. He isn't on anyones radar as a promising head coach. What he is on his way to is getting shitcanned....and hopefully it happens at the end of this year and not later.

[Mark O]

Mike Pettine doesn't have any such track record. He isn't on anyones radar as a promising head coach. What he is on his way to is getting shitcanned....and hopefully it happens at the end of this year and not later.

 

And hire who? And how long does this guy get to turn everything around? It better not be very long before this new savior you propose we bring in turns the franchise around because its going to be a tough sell to the fans who buy the tickets to be patient while we "rebuild" once again.

[The Gipper]

 

And hire who? And how long does this guy get to turn everything around? It better not be very long before this new savior you propose we bring in turns the franchise around because its going to be a tough sell to the fans who buy the tickets to be patient while we "rebuild" once again.

How about this guy......or his clone:

[Tour2ma]

How about this guy......or his clone:

Interesting topic... not sure how many of yesteryears' "tyrannical" HCs would be successful in today's NFL.

[Mark O]

Interesting topic... not sure how many of yesteryears' "tyrannical" HCs would be successful in today's NFL.

 

 

Nope.....Jim Harbaugh tried it, was successful for a bit but eventually realized he needs to go back to college so he can boss around the college kids.

 

And on a side note...that's truly my problem with every one of the "fire the coach" dweebs around here. They all shout all day about fire the coach, but no one has a suggestion on who should be the coach.

[Opal312]

I disagree. Someone is going and it's probably Pettine. I hope it's Farmer but someone is going. If they lose to the Cardinals someone is getting the axe!

[Opal312]

Nope.....Jim Harbaugh tried it, was successful for a bit but eventually realized he needs to go back to college so he can boss around the college kids.

 

And on a side note...that's truly my problem with every one of the "fire the coach" dweebs around here. They all shout all day about fire the coach, but no one has a suggestion on who should be the coach.

How about Greg Schiano? He was supposed to interview with Haslam but I think Banner put the kabash on it

[Mark O]

How about Greg Schiano? He was supposed to interview with Haslam but I think Banner put the kabash on it

 

Same problem... won't work in the NFL.

[Mark O]

I disagree. Someone is going and it's probably Pettine. I hope it's Farmer but someone is going. If they lose to the Cardinals someone is getting the axe!

 

 

I'll take that bet. IF we lose to the Cardinals, no one gets fired.

[Zombo]

Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!

Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!

 

Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.

 

I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.

 

Summary:

 

If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!

 

If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.

 

"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.

 

Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.

 

Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

Zombo

[Zombo]

Not exactly. I understand that repeating the same behavior and expected different results is insanity.......you don't get it! But then you are just a cheerleader.

 

Ha! I have ten times the football knowledge you, you dumb shit.

 

For example, I know that a guy who roots for a team that has failed to finish above .500 in two of the past three years, is headed for another subpar year and just lost to a one-win team is a dumbfuck for spending his time on another team's football board spewing out "knowledge" he knows absolutely nothing about.

 

You are really coming off as dumbfuck in these posts, might be time to go back into hiding until we need our next lesson from Captain dipshit.

 

Zombo

[The Gipper]

All true but there are a couple issues at work which I'm guessing none of us are privy to or even able to fully understand.

 

First, you have someone making REALLY bad draft choices......but why? Whoever is thinking that "this guy can make the difference for us" is killing you because no single "guy" can turn this around. They need to trade all their 1st and 2nd round choices and use the resulting 10 picks for a couple years to build a foundation; then draft "the guy". But would the fans accept that? Indication are that, no, they wouldn't. I've heard a number of Browns fans emphatically present that after all the losing, they "deserve" to win NOW!,,,,,,But that doesn't change reality! It would be like me whining that I have spent $100 per week for 10 years playing the lottery and have still not won, so I "deserve" to win NOW..... But that does not change the odds of any given number or numbers to come up.......that's reality!

 

Second, this is only going to turn around if there is a long term plan which starts with selecting an unknown group of coaches (because known coaches won't come here) based on the belief that they will collectively work on a system and then give them the talent to make "that system" work. Yet it appears that the Browns choose coaches, and players, based on fan and media demand. Are the inmates running the asylum? How can the front office keep doing this year after year?

I don't think trading all of our first and second round picks is a prudent policy just because the past picks have not worked out.

....but then, that policy didn't do too badly for George Allen and the Redskins back in the day. They went a better part of a decade with no first round pick

.....but as you note....you really have to have a high quality personell evaluator to turn that trick.....and the Browns don't have that, clearly.

[The Gipper]

Problem: Knee-jerk reaction! Every year!

Solution: Take an intelligent approach, and give it time to mature!

 

Again, I think that they think that that is just what they are doing.

 

Instead of determining if it's "this player" or "that coach" and subsequently getting rid of the ones you determine to be at fault, accept that it's due to the fact that this mess is way worse than you are willing to believe and you will only be able to truly pinpoint blame once the system has had time to show itself.

That is fairly incoherent... I hope most of the rest of your post clarifies that.

 

I'll give you an analogy since I play golf at a competitive level. If you are a hack, but you think you're actually good, and every time you hit a bad shot you throw that golf club away, you will soon have a mix and match of golf clubs and have no chance of playing well with them. Go get some lessons, get fitted, get a new set of clubs that fit your swing, allow some time, and stop blaming your clubs for your bad play. If you don't play well the first time you play for something, don't throw the clubs away and buy new ones. Maybe in a few years you will be good.

Yea, but who is playing this round? The owner/GM/HC? I mean, perhaps the owner is the guy that runs the course...and while he wants you to play well, he may only be concerned about collecting his greens fees. And maybe the GM is the starter.....he says.....look, I provide you all the green grass in front of you.....go be the next Arnold Palmer. So, clearly it is the coach who is the player......and his asst. coaches who are the caddies (and if they are of little help to you reading the greens, you change caddies at the turn? And the players are the clubs. Problem is, it not just that the guy is playing poorly....our guy seems to be playing without a driver or a putter. How do you get those? Keep going back to the pro shop?

 

Summary:

 

If I believe I am a good golfer, when in fact I am not, and I keep blaming the clubs, I will never progress!

 

If Browns fans, and apparently ownership, believe that the Browns are a player or two away from being competitive, and they are not, and they keep swapping coaches, they will never progress.

Sure.....but, as I said.....if that coach is not playing with a driver and a putter.....how good can he get until he gets the proper equipment.

[The Gipper]

 

"My team wins. Therefore, I am smart about football.

 

Your team loses. Therefore, you are dumb about football.

 

Here, let me tell you what your organization needs to do, because I'm a Steeler fan, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

 

Zombo

In his defense, I did ask him for his input.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

 

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

 

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

[The Gipper]

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

 

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

 

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.

[Mark O]

Maybe JMZ was a Haslam choice, but Gilbert was pure Farmer. Seriously.....if he has stayed at the #4 pick that time....he would have do much pressure to take Sammy Watkins....and he wanted no part of a high pick being used on a WR. Had he passed on that pick and taken someone else.....the wolves would have howled (although had he take Khalil Mack instead....he would have survived the howling). No, to give himself cover, he did the trade down. That way he could take someone at a position that he wanted....and not an offensive skill player that he didn't want.

 

 

And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.

[Tour2ma]

Despite what the media reports, do you think maybe that the first round picks have more to do with Haslam than Farmer?

 

I find it kind of odd that Farmer can seemingly hit on players such as Bitonio, Shelton, Desir, Erving, Orchard, Gabriel, etc. yet fail miserably with Gilbert and Manziel.

 

Wouldn't logic then point to the fact that maybe the higher marquee picks had some other brains behind them? Especially

Maybe... TC, but it occurred to me yesterday that perhaps Farmer is so enamored with finding gems no one else does, he tries to do that Day 1 as well and it leads to reaches.

[Tour2ma]

And in hindsight to this point in the careers both Gilbert and Watkins are disappointments. Gilbert is at least contributing on special teams but Watkins can't stay healthy.

Which player's chances do you like better?

 

Watkins getting healthy... or... Gilbert getting "it"?