Westside Steve Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The point was not that not all muslims are terrorists. Did you read the bit where Legacy asked what the point was, then I explained it to him? Because that wasn't what I was getting at at all. I mean, it's true, but it's not the point. I did. Did you not read my opening paragraph? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 And while that certainly may have been your point I don't believe it's the only point relevant to the OP. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I did. Did you not read my opening paragraph? WSS Of course, it just didn't seem to be the case, so I reiterated. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 And while that certainly may have been your point I don't believe it's the only point relevant to the OP. WSS No, for sure, it's not. However, it's the crux of the last couple of pages at least. It would be nice if we could move on from the "well islam teaches violence and death for everyone" rhetoric, but it seems we can't. There's a whole load of things in play on these attacks, and I've made other points before about some of those other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Of course, it just didn't seem to be the case, so I reiterated. Again. Well then it's a stupid point. I have never thought that and I have never said that. Perhaps you are trying to engage Walter White in conversation. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well then it's a stupid point. I have never thought that and I have never said that. Perhaps you are trying to engage Walter White in conversation. WSS You're not in the group of people that traditionally says that, I agree. I would not, however, engage walter in anything besides a 'who can jump off this cliff fastest' contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The left is really selective about where they apply history. The climate is changing! History shows the climate changes a lot Fuck history! Having guns wouldn't protect you from tyranny from the government. History shows armed insurrections work Fuck history! Islamic aggression is a huge problem basically threatening everyone in the world But but but christians did bad things in history. Yes Christianity has had some dark days. How that, in any way, excuses what islam is up to in 2015 is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The left is really selective about where they apply history. The climate is changing! History shows the climate changes a lot Fuck history! Having guns wouldn't protect you from tyranny from the government. History shows armed insurrections work Fuck history! But but but christians did bad things in history. Yes Christianity has had some dark days. How that, in any way, excuses what islam is up to in 2015 is beyond me. Muhammad was a swell ol' guy. He only meant well when he was decapitating people and fucking kids. He is peaceful and his words are just misinterpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Here you've seen this, right? The oft cited verse of the qu'ran '5:32' that seems to condemn terrorism? Well...that sort of omits the next verse 5:33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 "The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Both of those omit a bit. Taken as they are meant you can basically apply the punishments described in 5:33 judiciously to any non muslim. Now I'm not any expert in Christianity but I'm pretty certain Jesus didn't lay anything like that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadbrownsfan Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The point is that you can take quotes from basically any scripture, out of context, use them to manipulate people who don't question what they're told, and then use those people to do evil things. As much as western civilisation is not doing so any more, by and large, that doesn't mean it hasn't in the past, and the fact that jesus supposedly said to ignore the old testament just adds more emphasis to that point - if people read the whole thing, and saw the quotes in context, they would be much less likely to commit the evil acts. Yet, in the past millennium, when the bible has been pretty much the same, you had people using the bible to justify evil things. Now we have a situation where in the middle east and africa - unsurprisingly the places with the worst education - people are using their religious text of choice - mostly the quran, granted, but still the bible in some places - to justify and encourage violence and oppression against other groups. Meanwhile, in educated, rich countries like the EU/North America/ANZ/Japan/Singapore etc. people will generally question what they're being told by the man standing at the front, yelling about how whichever group of people is sent by satan to take their land/rights/whatever and must be destroyed. I'm not trying to say "well christians did bad things too so the muslims are justified in their bad things" but that's how certain people here read it for some reason. Yeah I agree with that and I think it stems from literacy issues. In the last millennia when "CRUSADES!!!" and violent acts committed in the name of the Bible, populations were controlled because only a select few could read and they controlled the money etc. This was the point I was trying to make with referencing the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's sad. You do not see groups marauding around the globe, in some kind of a mission to murder innocent people by the hundreds of thousands, or millions if they just could, while claiming the Bible as their justification... to make their "religios" intent of world domination a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Eater Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 True Cal. The Quran justifies such violence to advance Islam. Neither the New or Old Testament justifies violence like that. Libgnorant democrats are evil just like Muslims are, that's why they stand together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Anymore ^^This I'm also of the opinion that circumstances reversed and some foreign entity or another was "constantly" in our business here subverting our political process for their own gain.....we might be the same people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 that's stupid. On what alleged basis? the koran? just another tit for tat liberal retort that makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 True Cal. The Quran justifies such violence to advance Islam. Neither the New or Old Testament justifies violence like that. Libgnorant democrats are evil just like Muslims are, that's why they stand together. If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. Also, good work on 'libgnorant' it really flows off the tongue. I'm sure you'll go on about how this is taken out of context, and actually means something else - well, I agree, and that's the point myself and other have been making. You can take excerpts of anything and make it sound like that's the overall meaning, and use it to justify things to people who don't question it. "And did the lord not SAY, that if there be any man or woman among you, who worships the SUN, or the MOON, or any other god, bring him to the town gates, and he shall be STONED by the towns people? And now we have these people OPENLY worshiping their false gods, and WHAT, do we do about it?" (in my mind it's usually in a southern accent) And that's just people with different religions. There's tons of stuff about these people and those people should die. Here's the crux that seems to be missed a lot. I can fully understand that people such as yourself, cal, and plenty of other christians believe the new testament to overrule the old, that the old is just there for context and jesus asks us to throw the rules out, and that's definitely a common interpretation of events. However, if you haven't done bible study yourself, and you just listen to your pastor, then you're stuck believing what he tells you; and then if what he tells you is that muslims/gays/foreigners/adulterers/divorcees/blacks/whoever should be stoned/ostracised/whatever/enslaved, then yeah, you can see why people might think like that. So yes, maybe jesus said that, but that hasn't stopped violence in the name of christianity throughout the last two thousand years. I know plenty about the crusades and the background, and that pope urban was trying to make it safe for christians to travel to the holy land. There's plenty of other stuff that didn't fall in to that remit that happened along the way, but that's not the point. There's also another 1900 years of history. People (incorrectly) used the bible to justify slavery. People (incorrectly) used the bible to justify killing people who were slightly different versions of christians. People (incorrectly) used the bible to justify drowning 'witches'. The list could really go on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ahhhhh the Crusades! Do we take a shot or is that just in the woody drinking game? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ahhhhh the Crusades! Do we take a shot or is that just in the woody drinking game? WSS "I know plenty about the crusades...but that's not the point. There's also another 1900 years of history." Pre-empting the "libtards just go on about the CRUSADES!" response and offering alternatives is not quite the same as "THE CRUSADES!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 But you are basically correct if in fact your meaning is what I think it might be. Human beings are fucked up and often want to do fucked up things. Most human beings believe themselves to be smarter than other human beings and think they can use the bullshit excuse that a Super being wants them to act that way. Or if someone elses actions piss them off or offend them they can pretend they are offended because that Super being once those offenders to behave differently. We hear it on both sides. God doesn't want you to be queer. Jesus would have been liberal. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Pretty much, yes. Like I said, out of context quotes can be taken in any way you like and then you claim to be spreading the word of god. It's happened throughout history, just stopped in the west in the last hundred years or so. So when people say "but look at this quote from the quran, clearly Islam promotes violence" it's tedious. Have a read of this: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/ Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph with the traditional title Emir al-Muminiin, “Commander of the faithful,” a role currently held by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate. But a detailed, or even superficial, knowledge of Islam isn’t necessarily relevant to the ideal of fighting for an Islamic State, as we have seen from the Amazon order of Islam for Dummies by one British fighter bound for ISIS. The people joining and making up ISIS aren't learned muslim scholars, who upon intense quran study come to the conclusion that the world must convert to islam or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well... I mean... Based on what a "liberal" is, or at least on the attributes given to them, Jesus kind of fits the bill. Healed people for free Gave out free food Going against the norms of the time Love thy neighbor I don't really care what Jesus is. It make no difference. It just seems like jesus would be considered a liberal today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 http://qpolitical.com/someone-said-muslims-bad-woman-delivers-amazing-response/ This is actually worth watching. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well... I mean... Based on what a "liberal" is, or at least on the attributes given to them, Jesus kind of fits the bill. Healed people for free Gave out free food Going against the norms of the time Love thy neighbor I don't really care what Jesus is. It make no difference. It just seems like jesus would be considered a liberal today. But Woody, Jesus did all that as charitable acts. He gave of himself.He didn't live his life in pursuit of riches nor did he call upon Caesar, or the Pharisees or anyone else to take the citizens money and give it to others. He did it freely of himself. I think that's the difference. It's a far cry from liberals who fly to a poverty summit in private jets, stay in luxury hotels and are chauffeured in limousines. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ummmmm, I get called a liberal daily on here but I don't do any if those things. I must be doing it wrong... I mean shit, he redistributed the bread and fish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 But Woody, Jesus did all that as charitable acts. He gave of himself. He didn't live his life in pursuit of riches nor did he call upon Caesar, or the Pharisees or anyone else to take the citizens money and give it to others. He did it freely of himself. I think that's the difference. It's a far cry from liberals who fly to a poverty summit in private jets, stay in luxury hotels and are chauffeured in limousines. WSS He did it himself, as a way of leading by example, calling everyone to follow his lead. And now there's a religion based on his teachings, and some who proclaim him messiah are pretty hesitant to follow his lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Also, if you haven't seen the Japanese-French father/son being interviewed on TV, you really should. https://www.facebook.com/jrous92/videos/10156190732035487/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Ummmmm, I get called a liberal daily on here but I don't do any if those things. I must be doing it wrong... I mean shit, he redistributed the bread and fish! Yes woodie, He did that on His own. He did not go to Simon and take his fish away from him and give them to the poor. Also also I don't really think of you as being a liberal, more of a contrarian. Also I've mentioned enough times that Christianity requires one to be selfless, to eschew the trappings of the secular world, etc. I think I am far too vain to call myself a Christian. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 He did it himself, as a way of leading by example, calling everyone to follow his lead. And now there's a religion based on his teachings, and some who proclaim him messiah are pretty hesitant to follow his lead. You are exactly right. I've never said otherwise. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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