Haslem and Farmer should be ashamed....

[Canton Dawg]

I also think we were the benefactors of an easy schedule during that time.

[Mudfly]

First half of 2014... remember? We were in first place and everything.

 

Add that we thought we knew why we fell off in late 2014 and felt we'd addressed the issues...

And we all gave Pettine credit for over achieving and winning with a team no one else wanted....and almost doubling the win total in one year, even though he had very limited talent and a thrown together staff and virtually no difference makers or play makers or QB.....

 

Then...this year, even with the brutal schedule....we assumed he would work similar magic.......

 

And, now, it hasnt happened....and he sucks....

[The Gipper]

The premise of this thread is fair enough: Don't blame just Pettine.....blame also Haslam and Farmer.

So be it. They certainly need to share responsibility.

When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports.....I think the owner should suffer some anger and embarassment over that.

 

Of course....however, this does not absolve Pettine. For, while it may be said that this is the worst run organization is sports.....also let it be said that is may be by far the worst coached team in sports. In the NFL certainly.

So while Farmer and Haslam get put on the hook....that doesn't mean that Pettine and his inept minions get let off. Not by any means.

[Mudfly]

 

When you have a national radio show like Mike and Mike saying this is the worst run organization in sports....

Right...they called it the worst run organization in sports........not the worst Coached.....

 

And if Jimmy and Farmer haven't given Pettine the things a "good organization" would(they haven't).....how can he be judged so harshly?

 

Have they put him in the best position to win?......

 

Nope.....Dont think so.....

[The Gipper]

Right...they called it the worst run organization in sports........not the worst Coached.....

 

And if Jimmy and Farmer haven't given Pettine the things a "good organization" would(they haven't).....how can he be judged so harshly?

 

Have they put him in the best position to win?......

 

Nope.....Dont think so.....

Tweedledum, Tweedledee. I call it the worst coached team in the NFL........regardless of what anyone else thinks.

[Flugel]

Thats right.....Haslem and Farmer....

 

They ARE the ones running this ship, right?

 

Haslem is the bigshot owner who was gonna make this team right.....and Farmer is the arrogant - know it all - GM who restocked this team with greatness....right?

 

So....Haslam has already fired 2 complete NFL staffs, and by all appearances, is about to fire his third in just 3 years....and, somehow, he'll try to sell us that its "those guys he's fired" that were the problem....even though HE has hired them all and is their leader....

 

And if he is the leader, why is he not saying one thing?......Ill tell you why.....he doesnt know what to say, He's lost. And as long as he has Pettine to take the heat, he's gonna let him stand out there alone and answer to this shit storm.....as if it's Pettines fault this team has not improved....

 

And Farmer?....where the fuck is he??????......Why does Pettine have to answer to Johnny, Bowe, Housler, Gilbert, West, etc etc etc.....????......Farmer has been absent this ENTIRE season and the one time we saw him, he was as smug and arrogant as they come. Really really a turn off for this fan. Whose fault is it that we have SO MANY overpaid non performing players? Whose fault is it that we claim to draft character, yet our roster has the head case Gilbert, party boy drunk QB, pot head WR in waiting, 4 th highest paid LB in the league, with 12 tackles, 12m WR who doesnt even try to play and a GM who gets himself suspended....

 

Yet, lets leave Pettine out there....all alone....to explain it away AND take ALL the heat.....(Oneill too, as if he's the reason this team sucks....which is so ridiculous I dont know what to say....we sucked before him and well suck after him).....I promise

 

For the 2 guys who are REALLY supposed to be LEADERS and the decision makers and the guys who are running things...Haslem and Farmer sure are absent....and definitely NOT being accountable in any way for this shit storm....

 

TERRIBLE LEADERSHIP FROM THE TOP DOWN......

 

Whether or not you think Pettine is a good coach, he is not the reason this team has been bad for 20 years...or the last 2 years......but he is the only one sitting out there....like a man....and answering questions and standing up to the heat......the other guys are hiding like the pussies that they are.

 

So....for all of you who think its Pettine or Jim Oneills fault that this team sucks....think again....

 

Everyone wants Pettine gone because he's the "leader" and not getting his minions to do their jobs....THINK AGAIN........

 

I say he's in the middle....FARMER and Haslem are his bosses and they aint leading shit....and they'll want you to believe they given Pettine "everything he needs to succeed"....which is a crock...

 

So....they'll let Pettine take the heat....twist in the wind....then they'll fire him(scapegoat)....and everyone will cheer!!....YAY!....

 

And then Haslem and Farmer will hire some new coach that is supposed to win with crap.....and the cycle starts again.....and they will just continue to give us more shit and less leadership......and this untalented team will continue to make coaches look bad....etc etc

 

Its a bad look and I got more respect than ever for Pettine, for just sitting up there alone and being the goat....while the rest of the organization hides....

 

Haslem is quickly becoming Daniel Snyder....didnt he learn ANYTHING from the Rooneys????

 

I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes. Mud, one of your biggest gifts is being able to make sense of things that don't make sense and articulating them so they make perfect sense. Always a compelling read in here. However, I couldn't tell who you were trying to convince more between yourself and your readers with the Poor Mike stuff.

 

First, there's only 1 owner that gave Mike Pettine a shot. Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?

 

Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. He opted to keep Tabor as the Special Teams Coordinator for the sake of continuity, hired a rookie DC in 2014 and then hired a rookie OC in 2015. I'll start with continuity in saying I've never seen our return team flagged more in a 3 year period which has often meant starting drives between our 5 and 15 yard line. Baltimore was very thankful we kept him here so they could score on his unit twice. Somebody posted in the O'Neil thread how many categories our defense ranked dead last. Our running game was ranked 31st heading into the Cincy game while our most efficient QB wasn't surviving life in this pocket. The situational football practiced showed me 2 consecutive weeks where the QB we were counting on as time was expiring Monday or near half on Sunday no sense of time management or urgency like this coaching staff. And how comforting was it to read our Offensive Line Coach had a history of troubles with alcohol to the extent 1 more incident = game over. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?

 

Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. Do we really think that was because Ray Farmer is a just a selfless great guy without an ego welcoming teamwork? Or, maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?

 

Fourth, if this staff didn't lose this team - does Travis Benjamin have to announce when he becomes a free agent next year he'd like to stay only if we have the right staff in place? Players aren't stupid. Veterans pretty much know if a scheme is going to sink or swim. Cal posted Mario Williams' complaint about the same defensive scheme Buffalo has right now frustrating their front 7 with too much thinking and not enough sic em, sock em and sack em. Even a frequent Pro Bowl player like Kyle Williams wasn't having one of his better seasons before landing on IR. A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year especially Joe Haden (even before he got injured), Kruger, Whitner, Des Bryant, etc. The more that continued - the more frustration intercepted trust of schemes. It's way easier to play like a Brown when there's a reward for their efforts on the scoreboard at the end of 3 hours. On the other hand, when you lose all of your last 5 games and only start the next year 2-10 - questions arise. What is the 2-15 record/trend showing us aside from ranking 32nd in many defensive categories and 31st at running the football? Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?

 

My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't. My worry is what he represents. A Head Coach that wants to shove his ego down our esophagus that his Rex Ryan Defense just HAS to work above and beyond bringing in an experienced DC with new ideas above and beyond the only scheme Pettine has ever known.If he has to fire O'Neil - he'll probably just hire a Defensive Coach from Ryan's staff that Buffalo's vets are less than thrilled with.

 

Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying. I'm sure we're agreeing for different reasons. He wants/needs fans to rally with Poor Mike was never given anything to work with. I'm coming from Hey Welcome to Cleveland - this is exactly what you signed up for. Teach, train, develop, evaluate, prepare, practice, kickoff and kickass. Rinse and repeat. If that's too tough - next?

 

I don't want to start over every 2 years either but that shouldn't mean we need to hand tenure to a trend of 2-15 with 37-3 as our most recent loss. I'm not seeing enough silver linings or promise to assure me otherwise. My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.

[Pumpkin Eater]

Wow. 2-14 and getting blown out every game with progress being shown no where...and people think Pettine needs more time? Why? So the clowns can go 1-15 next year? Another year with that idiot is another lost year.

[Flugel]

Wow. 2-14 and getting blown out every game with progress being shown no where...and people think Pettine needs more time? Why? So the clowns can go 1-15 next year? Another year with that idiot is another lost year.

 

You are what your record says you are. Mike is 2-15 in his last 17 games. I'm not buying the theory none of this is Pettine's fault or he's a gotta keep.

[flyingfooldoug]

If the coach is trying but has his decisions constantly questioned and overturned....is he really the coach?

[nickers]

And the bigger question looms.. Who do replace these butchers with?

[flyingfooldoug]

And the bigger question looms.. Who do replace these butchers with?

After listening to the Golic brothers discuss this numerous times, I'm pretty convinced that we will have the same coach next year that we had 2 years ago, last year and this.. Coach Haslam of course!

[Mudfly]

 

First, I agree Farmer sucks and Haslem has made a ton of mistakes.

 

Do you really think Haslem, fresh off the 4-12 train wreck from 2013, was thinking - I can't wait to make life Hell on my new Head Coach?

 

Second, Pettine hired his own coaching staff. For a guy that doesn't want to count on rookies at important positions or look to people with a history of alcoholism - what did his choices of coaches say about that? Poor Mike?

 

Third, there were many articles and pressers that mentioned this coaching staff and the Head Coach had a lot of input/say on the draft. maybe - just maybe, the owner (Haslem) encouraged them to work together?

 

Fourth, A lot of our higher investments on defense were off to a bad start this year ...Good teaching? Sound schemes? Or, just all Ray Farmer's and Jimmy Haslem's fault?

 

My worry was never Jimmy O'Neil and still isn't.

 

Surprisingly, I agree with Pettine that they're trying.

 

My guess is what Haslem learned from the Rooneys is when your program has a winning tradition - you get much better candidates interested in your Head Coach vacancies.

Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....

 

What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....

 

But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....

 

First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....

 

And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?

 

Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)

 

Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......

1. Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
2. Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
3. And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
4. So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
5. If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...

Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...

 

Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?

 

Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)

 

Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...

 

Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...

 

So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....

 

 

I'm not buying the theory none of this is Pettine's fault or he's a gotta keep.

So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....

 

Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....

 

Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????

 

So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....

 

There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...

 

Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....

 

So.....if I was Haslem.....

 

First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....

 

Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too

 

Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....

 

So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....

 

But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....

 

And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......

[jiggins7919]

Look, everyone associated with the team's performance should be embarrassed. I wasn't happy with Pettine saying he was happy about his player's effort, but maybe he's right. Maybe our guys did try hard, but they just aren't good enough. I don't know, and I'm certainly not going to watch the damn game again.

 

What we need to do against the 49's is play better on all fronts. I know, I know....Jiggins with the shocking solution, but I'm serious. I want to see our defense get off the field, force FG's, and get some turnovers. I want to see our offense sustain some drives so our defense isn't on the field all damn day, and when (or IF) we get into the red zone, I want our coaches to figure out ways to get 6, and I want our players to execute. Would I like to win the game? Well, yeah...of course. Top pick be damned, I want to win the game, but even more than winning, I want to see us not give up. I want to see us run the ball, make freaking tackles, and score some damn points. The 49's are playing better than people expected now, and while I wouldn't call Blaine Gabbert the second coming, he's making plays, and he throws a deadly accurate short ball. Short passes can kill our team because of our terrible tackling, so we'll need to improve or we'll give up a ton of first downs.

 

This season was an embarrassment, and it still is. There is a ton of blame to go around for everyone involved, but there really isn't anything we can do about it with 4 games left. Making sweeping changes at this point does nobody any good. We have a home game coming up against an opponent that has to travel a long way, and who isn't a great team. Let's make some damn progress.

[Mudfly]

Look, everyone associated with the team's performance should be embarrassed. I wasn't happy with Pettine saying he was happy about his player's effort, but maybe he's right. Maybe our guys did try hard, but they just aren't good enough. I don't know, and I'm certainly not going to watch the damn game again.

 

I think a lot of people are mixing the word "effort" with the word "performance".....

 

Pettine didnt say he was happy with the play or performance, he said he didnt see a lack of effort.....

 

Which tells me 2 things......

1) He's got his players backs and isnt calling them out publicly....cause some were slackin....

2) He's implying that, even though they play hard, they aren't good enough...

 

Its obvious to me....

[Canton Dawg]

Mud, I think it's number 1.

 

Hartline plays his ass off, and won't comment on his team after the loss to the Bungles.

 

Which leads me to believe, somebody(s) are a slackin' but he's not going to publicly rat anyone out.

 

I believe Pettine is doing the same.

[WalterWhite]

Harlem's biggest mistake was not hiring Bruce Arians or Mike Zimmer

[jiggins7919]

I think a lot of people are mixing the word "effort" with the word "performance".....

 

Pettine didnt say he was happy with the play or performance, he said he didnt see a lack of effort.....

 

Which tells me 2 things......

1) He's got his players backs and isnt calling them out publicly....cause some were slackin....

2) He's implying that, even though they play hard, they aren't good enough...

 

Its obvious to me....

 

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it to. Like I said, I'm not going to watch the game again, but I can't really think of examples where I thought our players weren't TRYING. I think it's just kind of shocking to hear a coach say he was happy with the effort after his team got their asses whipped, LOL. And I also agree that he was trying to get his player's backs, but it makes his statement at the end of the conference even more puzzling. He specifically brought up the fact that Tramon was supposed to have top side help, but in making that statement, he completely called out Gipson. That entire play was puzzling. Gipson must have completely lined up wrong, which is hard to imagine because other players surely would've said something. He was so far away from the sideline, he couldn't possibly have assisted.

[Mudfly]

 

He specifically brought up the fact that Tramon was supposed to have top side help, but in making that statement, he completely called out Gipson.

I dont know...100%....what his motives were, but can speculate....

 

Given the play, he either defended Tramon for what happened, or he let Tramon take the heat(even if it wasnt his fault)...so he opted to protect the player that was wrongfully being accused....

 

Plus....it's an opportunity to show that "players" make mistakes....and all the bad things that happen are not necessarily coaching...

 

Things are bad, so Ill bet a lot of fingers are being pointed...in a lot of directions....

 

Some players(like Kruger) want to blame the coach or scheme.....some players(like Tramon) want to blame other players.....some coaches want to blame the talent.....and some coaches want to blame effort or execution.....FO just want to blame anyone but themselves....

 

So....out of ALL the people involved....WHO is actually stepping up and accepting any responsibility or saying "I" have to do better....??

 

The Coaches are,,,,,thats it......

 

Farmer and Haslem are absent and the players prefer to think its either the Coaches or other players not pulling their weight...

 

A winning organization would "collectively" work together to resolve things, as opposed to going silent and waiting for the other shoe to drop....

[slimdawg]

Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....

 

What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....

 

But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....

 

First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....

 

And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?

 

Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)

 

Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......

• Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
• Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
• And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
• So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
• If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...

Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...

 

Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?

 

Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)

 

Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...

 

Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...

 

So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....

 

So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....

 

Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....

 

Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????

 

So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....

 

There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...

 

Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....

 

So.....if I was Haslem.....

 

First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....

 

Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too

 

Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....

 

So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....

 

But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....

 

And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......

Kudos to you to have the balls to have such a strong opinion on such an unpopular view. I agree 100% with all you've said in this thread.

I have a few unpopular ideas to add myself.

1)If we keep the same GM/HC combo, give pettine final say on the roster/picks. Whether or not they collaborate or pettine gives his input, ultimately its farmer who has the final say regardless of who inputs what. IMO he has handcuffed the coaches because he thinks he knows what players are needed more than the coaches do, results? Highest paid D / worst ranked D (farmer signs these guys and decides how much), skill position talent near non existent, whiff after whiff on top draft picks (still hoping JFF can be the guy) DWAYNE BOWE SMFH, and as you point out, hes hiding and hanging pettine out to dry. If they retain them both, i say let pettine try his hand at shaping this roster.

2) If we kick farmer to the curb i say give pettine total control on a 1 year audition. Hire an exec for the football side to help guide and assist him, not undermine or overrule him and see how that works. After a year if things arent looking like its gonna work, start over from scatch and hire a whole new front office. Either way, the people who obtain the players have to have the same vision as the people coaching them and its pretty evident thats not the current case.

 

IMHO i beleive that pettine can get this turned around, i think he has the meddle to do it. Bumps from learning on the job are going to happen, just have to stick with it and ride it out.

[medicineman]

I agree 100%

[medicineman]

I will say that it seems funny how right after Jimmy bought the team he goes under investigation with that whole fuel thing (I can't remember the whole story) But IF something fishy is going on behind closed doors (Like somebody has mentioned before) IDK But we always have a chance to get great picks like number 1 and a couple 2's and NEVER IMPROVE? We don't deserve this, we are the biggest sleeping giant in the NFL we have fans all over thanks to Browns backers,

[Mudfly]

Kudos to you to have the balls to have such a strong opinion on such an unpopular view. I agree 100% with all you've said in this thread.

I have a few unpopular ideas to add myself.

I agree 100%

Ha!....We are few, but I think there are some coming around...welcome to the club

 

We don't deserve this, we are the biggest sleeping giant in the NFL we have fans all over thanks to Browns backers,

Browns fans definitely deserve better......no doubt....

[CaineDeSoulis]

Worse case scenario in my opinion is firing pettine at the end of the season and keeping farmer. Infact any scenario in which farmer remains involved with the browns in any way is a bad scenario.

[Tour2ma]

Damn... if Pet gets any more popular I may have to switch sides...

[CaineDeSoulis]

Now don't get me wrong both is fine too and if farmer goes pettine will almost assuredly go too

[browns52]

Maybe Pet was setup to fail and take the heat so Farmer and Jimmy can bring in their real "guy". interesting theory.

 

I think we all agree that we need coordinators and a GM/President with EXPERIENCE and continuity. A full rookie staff seems setup to fail.

 

Farmer was sweating like crazy the one time I saw him give a presser. Jimmy needs to say something.

 

And I believe it's Pettine and O'Neil's fault the defense sucks. Pet talked today in his pressure about them needed to find out the problem with the D. Whether it was the players, coaches, or scheme. I personally don't think Pet has the balls to call out or fire his buddy O'Neil, even if he is the problem. Again it's a tough spot to fire your good buddy, but maybe Pet should of let O'Neil coach the linebackers and brought in an experienced D coordinator who's done it before.

 

I don't hate Pettine, but can we agree the whole front office is a clusterfuck, and a few more years of it with no changes could quite possibly set us back even more.

agreed. haslem knows shit about football. i wish he would sell the team although i believe he would make a deal to move the team out of cleveland if the money was right...It's all about the almighty fuck, i mean buck....

[browns52]

Ok....fair write up and I agree with much of what you said....let me say that I am not saying Pettine is great....nor am I saying he's done a super job....nor am I saying he "must" stay.......thats not the point Im making here....

 

What I said was that his "bosses" have hung him out to dry and, "if they are working together", as you said, then they have a real funny way of showing it......and if they are ALL culpable(which they are), then why is Pettine all alone when its time to answer questions????....to me, that shows weak leadership on the part of Farmer and Haslem....while Pettine is showing strength.....

 

But, I will address your points, since there is clearly a difference of opinion here....

 

First: If you agree that Farmer sucks, how can you say Pettine has the talent to win.???...or is the premise that he doesnt have the talent to win, but he should at least do a little better???......cause I could agree there....

 

And, if Haslem and Farmer have made a TON of mistakes, why do they get a pass, while Pettine gets fired? Are mistakes not part of the learning process for new players.....Owners?....GMs?.....and Coaches?

 

Second: Yes. He DID hire his own staff at the last second, when there were few to zero quality Coaches available. I think this staff is the BIGGEST part of the problem, because these coaches are the guys who are REALLY hands on with the players. THIS is where the changes need to be made....not at the top. AND, if were gonna "fire" a Coach for his hiring practices, then we should be firing EVERYBODY for their hiring practices......(you listening JIMMY?....""""Mr. I cant Hire Anybody that sticks""""..)

 

Third: Yes. They are supposed to work together, right?....so......

1. Why is Pettine all alone out there. Work together, but take the blame solo?....was that the plan?
2. Why does the Coach get a QB he cant stand? Isnt that the most important position on the field? So he's supposed to win with a drunk General he doesnt want?
3. And, why does Pettine sit up there and accept the heat and "own it", as he likes to say. But when Farmer does his "Only" pressy, he deflects and basically says "I didnt pick these guys, WE picked these guys".....whose working together there?.....Dude wont even "own it" for his own picks...Instead, he just pushed that mess onto Pettines plate....
4. So....no working together.....which was THE WHOLE POINT of this thread.....no acceptance of any responsibility from the Owner or GM, who are SUPPOSED to be part of the "team" and working "with" Pettine..
5. If we were winning, those 2 would be front and center, soaking up the accolades.....guaranteed...

Fourth: Our High investments are not performing?...you mean like Dwayne Bowe?....Rob Housler?.....Ben Tate?....Paul Kruger?....Johnny Manziel?......Justin Gilbert?.....cause I dont think these guys are PETTINES fault, yet he's taking the heat for them....isnt he?...where is Farmer?...

 

Its easy to say some guys started bad.....or, if a player plays poorly, its the coaches fault......Look, I can tell you Haden, Gipson and Whitner all had Pro-bowl years under Pettine...or Kruger had his BEST season ever, under Pettine.....so, what, he didnt suck last year, but suddenly does this year?

 

Isnt it possible that Haden just started slow(like he has historically, season to season) and then got hurt?....(yes)

 

Isnt it possible that, after having his best season ever(also under Pettine), that Gipson blew his knee out and then started slow(like most injured guys do)...then got hurt too?....(yes)...

 

Isnt it possible that Kruger, after having HIS best season ever(also under Pettine) just reverted back to the very average LB he's always been and is putting up the same #'s he's put up in 5 out of his 7 seasons?.....(yes)...

 

So...is it all Farmer and Haslems fault?....NO...I never said that.....what I said is that it isnt ALL Pettines fault....

 

So...again.....Im not saying "none of this is Pettines fault"......or that he's great or a "gotta keep"....

 

Im saying its a shared responsibility and, without proper talent, its unfair to dump the frustration of 20 years of losing on his back alone.....

 

Look....this team sucked when Shurmur came in, and sucked after he left...And it sucked when Chud came and it sucked when he left......And it sucked when Pettine came in....and WHOA.....now, its Pettines fault??????

 

So....if we are to fix the problem, do we fire the visible target, or can we do an honest assessment and make changes where they are needed?....thats all Im asking....

 

There is NO WAY a quality Coach is gonna watch this....Pettine dangling out there alone....getting ZERO support from the Owner or the GM(who are supposed to be part of the "work together team" you mentioned).....having players he doesnt want thrust upon him.....and still want to come here and Coach....no fucking way...

 

Farmer and Haslem could promise him the world and all the support he needs..But any smart Coach would see right through that and how THAT went with Pettine....who didnt get good players and didnt get the time he was promised and didnt get any support when things went bad....

 

So.....if I was Haslem.....

 

First: Id get with Pettine and, together, work to find some top notch-experienced Coaches going forward...because thats what good organizations do....they adjust and improve....as opposed to just vaporizing and starting over...and over.....and over....and over....

 

Second: Id fire Farmer.....or, at minimum.....set a performance ultimatum for year 3....and this would be an acceptable thing to do with Pettine too

 

Third: Id say something....as owner and leader.....to help my fans(and patrons) understand where this team is headed....

 

So....Poor Mike?.....in a way....Not because he's great and getting a bad rap....but because his bosses and "team mates" have forsaken him.....

 

But....I think you all will get your wish.....and Mike will be fired......and Haslem and Farmer will huddle and pursue another Coach and more half assed talent.....and it will continue to be a joke.....and the talent will prove to be what it is(bad to average, with a few good guys mixed in).....

 

And then everyone can debate the "new reason we suck"......

It's the owner. Just like marissa meyer at yahoo...she knows shit about the business and drove it to the point where they have to start selling pieces of it or the whole thing. Football is a business and the asshole at the top has run this ship to the ground.

[Mudfly]

Football is a business and the asshole at the top has run this ship to the ground.

.....or, possibly, never even set sail?

[Tour2ma]

Gotta love a good Silicon Valley CEO reference... makes me think B52 is some kind of "Yahoo"...

[browns52]

.....or, possibly, never even set sail?

its a shame, it really is..I never expected, up to this point from 1999, that we would have shitty ownership leading to this massive shipwreck of a franchise that was once one of the greatest franchises of all time...